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Friday Talking Points [276] -- Shutdown Follies

[ Posted Friday, October 4th, 2013 – 17:57 PDT ]

Well, I have to admit -- I never thought John Boehner was stupid enough to shut the government down over Obamacare. Shows what I know, right? Sigh.

I think the stupidest thing about a very stupid week for the Republicans, though, was how they stomped all over a news story they've been salivating over for four years now. Because the shutdown coincided with the launch of the Obamacare exchanges, we've heard a whole lot of news stories about the shutdown, but the exchanges (as Salon.com puts it) now have the chance to make a "second first impression." The fracas over the shutdown all but drowned out the stories of glitches on the exchanges. Which, as mentioned, the Republicans have been itching to hear for years. Whoops!

Now, in a former lifetime, I tested computer software for a living. It paid better than this job, but I have to say it wasn't anywhere near as fun. In any case, I fully expected there to be some technical problems with the launch of such a huge computer system. There always are. It's the big secret that keeps software testers in business, actually: bug-free software does not exist. Especially with online sites. So I've known all along there would be problems. But, thanks to the shutdown, most media haven't focused on them nearly as much as they would have if the shutdown didn't exist (with the exception, no doubt, of Fox News, which I haven't watched all week).

Instead, we've been focusing on John Boehner, who more and more has taken on the aspect of a trapped feral weasel, looking desperately for a way out of the situation he created. He's not quite ready to gnaw his own leg off to escape the trap, but it looks like he's getting close.

Republicans have already tossed Ted Cruz to the wolves. Republican wolves, it should be noted. First, the Republican senators gave Cruz an earful in a closed-door caucus meeting. But the best anti-Cruz rant of the week came from John Podhoretz -- not generally known for being "squishy" or anything short of rabidly conservative. Podhoretz accurately sums up Ted Cruz as forcing the Republican party to "look silly at best and crazy at worst." He had much more to say on the subject, as well, including calling the Cruzians "blind fools." More on this in a bit.

Think "blind fools" is too strong a term? I don't. Here's Republican House member Marlin Stutzman from Indiana, helpfully explaining what the GOP overall strategy is: "We're not going to be disrespected. We have to get something out of this. And I don't know what that even is." Got that? They have no clue what their fallback position will be. Blind fools indeed.

Over in the mainstream media, the New York Times came up with a fantastic new term that everyone should really start using immediately: "banana Republicans." It's pretty self-explanatory, don't you think? Works for me.

All throughout the week, the number of House Republicans who were publicly calling for a clean budget bill rose, and now stands between 20 and 24 members (depending on which list you use). What this means is that a clear majority of the House of Representatives (you know, like the Constitution says) are now on public record that they'd vote for a clean bill. Boehner still is refusing this route, but Nancy Pelosi is apparently trying to force Boehner's hand with a parliamentary maneuver.

If Pelosi can get enough signatures on a demand to vote on a clean continuing resolution bill -- a process the wonkier call a "discharge petition" -- then Boehner will have no choice but to let the House vote. This is a tricky maneuver, however, with lots of arcane rules. But Democrats now have a plan to work within these rules to force a vote. It may work, it may not -- but if Pelosi has a demand for a vote signed by over half the House to wave around, it will certainly change the politics of the situation for the better, that's for sure. It may be hard to get Republicans to actually sign such a piece of paper, but we'll see -- it's the best move Democrats can make right now, no matter what happens.

And finally, before we get on with the awards and the talking points, comes the news that there will be an ad during a football game this weekend targeting John Boehner in his own district. The ad's concept is sheer brilliance: John Boehner is having a tantrum, just like all babies do. Couldn't have framed it better myself. Well done indeed! Now that's the way to frame things, folks.

 

Most Impressive Democrat of the Week

Two political moves in the midst of the shutdown deserve special mention this week, before we get on to the main award. The first is a group of Democrats, backed by Nancy Pelosi, who got tired of waiting on the Republican stall tactics, and just went ahead and introduced a House version of comprehensive immigration reform. This was in the background this week, but will likely become a much bigger story later in the year, when pressure rises on Republicans to allow a vote on the House floor. Honorable Mentions all around, for every Democrat involved in this effort.

The second is an issue which I've brought up again and again and again, all the way back to 2007. It's an idea which has worked wonders in California (after being passed as a referendum by the voters). It's a simple concept: if a budget is not in place on time, then lawmakers don't get paid. No budget? No pay. Easy!

So we've got to give at least an Honorable Mention this week to Representative Rick Nolan, for making a big push on his "No Government -- No Pay Act." In politics, you strike while the iron is hot. The time for passing such an idea is indeed right now, when the public is angry at Congress. I've moved on to suggesting that this should be introduced as a full-on constitutional amendment, myself, but have to salute Nolan for trying to get it passed as a law for now. The politics are perfect -- who in their right mind would be against such a concept? Well, besides a few clueless Republicans (more on them in the talking points), of course.

The public can even get in on the action themselves, as MoveOn has a new petition up demanding the "no budget, no pay" concept. It's up to just under 350,000 signatures, as of this writing.

But the winner of the Most Impressive Democrat Of The Week, for a second straight week, is none other than President Barack Obama. Not only has he held firm on his "no negotiating over Congress doing its basic job" stance, but he has been using the bully pulpit to great effect all week long.

Obama's resolve not to cave in to Tea Party demands is shocking a lot of people. It certainly shocked the House Republicans, that's for sure. Even more shocked were a whole lot of people from the Left who had completely given up on Obama's negotiating skills. Even now there is a defeatist undertone to some comments, as some Lefties refuse to believe that what is happening before their own eyes is actually happening. "Obama will cave," they cynically say, "he always does."

Well, so far, he hasn't. And his line in the sand still looks pretty firm to me. He hasn't budged an inch, because he knows he is in the right. He is now fully aware of the fact that there are some people you just can't bargain with, and that one of those people is John Boehner. Boehner has shown, over and over, in negotiations with the White House, that he is absolutely incapable of delivering on his promises -- because the Tea Party faction of his party refuses to be led by him.

So, this time, Obama's not even bothering with the pointlessness of striking any sort of deal, only to see Boehner unable to deliver the votes.

Barack Obama is under just as much pressure as Boehner. But if insider reports are to be believed, he knows he's fighting for a bigger principle this time around -- the real power struggle between the executive and legislative branches. And he is determined not to give in to ransom demands.

Obama is also not being shy about naming who is responsible. No politicianese about "the opposition" or "some in Congress" -- he's accurately pointing the finger at the Republicans in the House who are attempting to hold the American economy ransom. His comments all week long (read some of the recent transcripts, if you've missed them) have been pointed, well-framed, and absolutely accurate.

So for both standing up for the concept of "no negotiating with hostage-takers" and for using the bully pulpit exceedingly well to unequivocally communicate his position to the public, Barack Obama is this week's Most Impressive Democrat Of The Week winner, once again.

[Congratulate President Barack Obama on the White House contact page, to let him know you appreciate his efforts.]

 

Most Disappointing Democrat of the Week

You know what? There weren't any.

Democrats have been showing remarkable unity for the past few weeks, holding just as firm as the president. Because of this amazingly strong front they're displaying to the public, we just didn't see any Democrat who rose (sank, more like it) to the level of the Most Disappointing Democrat Of The Week this week.

If you have suggestions for anyone we've missed, as always, feel free to propose names in the comments.

 

Friday Talking Points

Volume 276 (10/4/13)

As has been true for the past few weeks, the strongest and most vicious comments against Republicans are coming from within their own ranks. Here's a chunk of what John Podhoretz wrote in the article mentioned earlier, for example:

That's what has happened with segments of the Right this year; they have blinded themselves. And since they've fashioned themselves leaders of others, in their blindness they have marched themselves and their followers off a cliff.

It gives me no pleasure to say this. I am no less an opponent of ObamaCare than those who have raged against it. I've written thousands of words against it and (in a magazine I edit) published tens of thousands of words dismantling it. I enjoy hearing arguments against it made as fluently as Sen. Ted Cruz made them last week in his pointless pseudo-filibuster.

But what these blind fools have done is make the case against ObamaCare more difficult to advance. They've made it less likely that ObamaCare will eventually be revoked and replaced. In seeking to extirpate the president's signature piece of legislation, they've played into the president's hands and weakened their own.

And they've done so, moreover, while insisting that people who warned them against this idiocy were sellouts and weaklings.

That's what Republicans are saying about their fellow Republicans, mind you. So Democrats don't even really need to jump on this dogpile all that much, as the real crushing blows are coming from Republicans themselves.

Earlier this week, I wrote an article which was really nothing more than a chain of talking points strung together, with the suggestion that Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, and President Obama should start using them as their new bargaining position. I would dearly love to see them do so, but I'm not going to repeat them today, so if you're looking for constructive ideas on how Democrats should be getting ready for the next round of this fight, I would direct you to this Wednesday's column.

Instead, there are a few political things Democrats should be saying, from the sidelines. Because the longer the shutdown goes on, the more it becomes a media battle for public opinion. So here are a few things Democrats either said or should be saying about the shutdown.

 

1
   One faction of one party

We've got to start this off with the best Obama quote of the week, in terms of framing things correctly. The first sentence is remarkable, to be sure, but there's also the "Republican shutdown" phrasing as well as the "ransom" framing. I almost decided to highlight nothing but Obama quotes for all the talking points this week, and there certainly were a lot of great ones to choose from, but this one sums the entire situation up best. This is from Obama's comments on the day the shutdown began:

One faction, of one party, in one house of Congress, in one branch of government, shut down major parts of the government -- all because they didn't like one law. This Republican shutdown did not have to happen. But I want every American to understand why it did happen. Republicans in the House of Representatives refused to fund the government unless we defunded or dismantled the Affordable Care Act. They've shut down the government over an ideological crusade to deny affordable health insurance to millions of Americans. In other words, they demanded ransom just for doing their job.

 

2
   We should pay them

Both sides of the divide held their breath this week, wondering if the disturbed individual responsible for a lockdown would be used against them ideologically, somehow. Thankfully, this has not come to pass for either side. Instead, Dick Durbin focused on the fact that the police officers protecting Congress during the scare were not currently being paid. Speaking of the Capitol Police, Durbin said (in what is quite possibly the shortest talking point we've ever used):

They were doing their duty -- and we should pay them for it.

 

3
   Majorities want shutdown ended

The first polling numbers on the shutdown are in, and they aren't pretty (for Republicans). More and more polls will likely be released in the next few days, so just update the numbers as needed.

"I see in the new CBS poll just released that 72 percent of Americans disapprove of the shutdown. Even among Republicans polled, more disapprove of the shutdown than approve. The public is blaming Republicans for this shutdown, as they should. I expect as time goes on more and more of the public will be placing the blame squarely at the feet of those responsible -- the Tea Party Republicans in the House who are more interested in political stunts than doing their jobs. Republicans love to talk about how they're standing up for, quote, the American people, unquote -- but the numbers show the American people are actually disgusted with them for shutting the government down. Maybe they're getting their polling numbers from the same folks who guaranteed Romney was going to win, I don't know -- for the reality-based, however, the polls are clear on what the American people actually want."

 

4
   No budget, no pay!

I think I've already introduced this one, earlier.

"You know what I think Congress should do? I think they should pass a law -- or a constitutional amendment, even -- which dictates that if the budget isn't in place on time, then they don't get paid. A 'no budget, no pay' law was passed in California a few years back, and since then the budgets are not months late -- they appear on time. The law works, and it works wonderfully. We can do this at the national level. If Congress doesn't do its basic job, it should not get paid. Period. While such Republicans as Mike Lee originally said they would indeed be pocketing their paycheck during the shutdown, I see he has now reversed himself because he learned how politically powerful an issue this truly is. However, there are still Republicans who are clueless enough to insist that they're doing a heckuva job and deserve every penny. This needs to end. No budget? No pay!"

 

5
   Hastert disavows eponymous rule

This didn't get nearly the press it should have.

"Even former Speaker of the House Denny Hastert is now saying that the so-called 'Hastert Rule' was never in full force, back when he led the chamber. Hastert now says that the 'Hastert Rule,' and I quote, never really existed. He went on to say: 'The real Hastert Rule is 218... if we had to work with Democrats, we did.' Of course, 218 is the number of votes in a majority of the House. John Boehner should really pick up the phone and talk to Hastert, because his adherence to the Hastert Rule is the only thing stopping us from ending the Republican shutdown in about fifteen minutes' time."

 

6
   Liquid courage

Another story that didn't get nearly enough attention.

"Many -- including sitting Congressmen -- have pointed out that on the fateful night when the shutdown was created, House Republicans were odiferously full of what can only be called 'liquid courage.' The reek of booze wafting off of those who shut down the federal government was so strong it was noted by many. Maybe they were setting up some sort of 'diminished capacity' defense for later on -- you know: 'I'm sorry, Your Honor, but I was drunk when I cast that vote.' Maybe all we need to do to resolve the shutdown is to shut down all the bars within a mile of Capitol Hill, eh?"

 

7
   Designate Republicans as a terrorist organization

Unfortunately, the site is currently down due to the shutdown, so we've had to link to a news story instead of pointing you to the petition itself.

"There is now a new petition up on the White House's public web page calling on the United States government to designate the Republican Party as a terrorist organization. While this is obviously just a joke, they do seem to be uncomfortably close to the definition -- an organization hellbent on destroying the American system of government who is also willing to take the full faith and credit of America hostage to further their ideological agenda. We'll see how many people sign this petition, once the government funding is restored, won't we?"

-- Chris Weigant

 

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Cross-posted at: Democratic Underground
Cross-posted at: The Huffington Post

 

94 Comments on “Friday Talking Points [276] -- Shutdown Follies”

  1. [1] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    Chris,

    The fracas over the shutdown all but drowned out the stories of glitches on the exchanges. Which, as mentioned, the Republicans have been itching to hear for years. Whoops!

    I think that's what some might call poetic justice. And, I hope to see a lot more of it over the course of the next three years, at least!

  2. [2] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    If Pelosi can get enough signatures on a demand to vote on a clean continuing resolution bill -- a process the wonkier call a "discharge petition" -- then Boehner will have no choice but to let the House vote. This is a tricky maneuver, however ... "

    I wonder if Boehner may try to help out by making that maneuver a little less tricky ...

  3. [3] 
    Pastafarian Dan wrote:

    Chris-
    There's one other thing besides Boehner's adherence to the "Hastert Rule" preventing us from ending the shutdown. Boehner's cowardice in the face of a Tea Party primary challenge.

  4. [4] 
    Michale wrote:

    Ya'all are letting your hatred of Boehner and all things Republican blind you to one simple possibility.

    That this is exactly what Boehner has planned all along..

    Again, I know ya'all hate to hear reality, especially if said reality complicates your world view that Democrats are as pure as the driven snow..

    But if ANYTHING has been proven this last week since the shutdown and the premiere of obamacare, it's that the pure driven snow has a buttload of tire tracks thru it.

    I know you can't acknowledge Boehner's genius in making this happen.

    But, being that I am not enslaved by political ideology, I can.

    And hereby do..

    As to this ludicrous idea that all systems have glitches, this is true..

    Yet, the Obama administration has had over TWO YEARS to make sure this system ran well..

    TWO FRAKIN' YEARS and all the considerable resources of the entire country at their disposal..

    And it has a LESS THAN 1% success rate!!

    And ya'all STILL think it's a great system!!????

    SERIOUSLY!!!???

    Does ANYONE have a verifiable success story of someone who has signed up for obamacare and LIKED IT???

    Anyone???

    Anyone at all??

    Fascinating...
    -Commander Spock

    Tell ya what..

    If ANYONE who can find me a VERIFIABLE case where someone has successfully signed up for obamacare and LIKED the experience and what they got....

    Find me that and I will forgo any further followup comments to this http://FTP....

    HuffPo, DailyKos etc etc rants do not count... Someone from the Obama Administration does not count...

    It has to be an average Joe or Jane Sixpack that no one has ever heard from before, ever... Not some Democrat plant or anything like that..

    Find me one.. Just one....

    I betcha that no one can find such a mythical creature...

    Michale

  5. [5] 
    Michale wrote:

    Liz,

    I wonder if Boehner may try to help out by making that maneuver a little less tricky ...

    How much did Pelosi and the Democrats try and help out when they were ramrodding obamacare thru without ANY input from Republicans??

    Goose?? Gander?? These ring a bell?? :D

    Michale

  6. [6] 
    Michale wrote:

    Liz,

    I wonder if Boehner may try to help out by making that maneuver a little less tricky ...

    How much did Pelosi and the Democrats try and help out when they were ramrodding obamacare thru without ANY input from Republicans??

    Goose?? Gander?? These ring a bell?? :D

    Michale

  7. [7] 
    Michale wrote:

    Liz,

    I wonder if Boehner may try to help out by making that maneuver a little less tricky ...

    How much did Pelosi and the Democrats try and help out when they were ramrodding obamacare thru without ANY input from Republicans??

    Goose?? Gander?? These ring a bell?? :D

    Michale

  8. [8] 
    Michale wrote:

    Whoaaa... How the hell did THAT happen!!????

    Michale

  9. [9] 
    Michale wrote:

    If you have suggestions for anyone we've missed, as always, feel free to propose names in the comments.

    How about the bozo in the Obama Administration who decided that the Make Americans Suffer strategy was the way to go..

    How about the OTHER bozo in the Obama Administration who said, "We're winning so why would we want to stop the shutdown??"

    I can find many more, if you like...

    "The list is long, but distinguished."
    -Goose, TOP GUN

    Michale

  10. [10] 
    Michale wrote:

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/113980/Gallup-Daily-Obama-Job-Approval.aspx

    Obama's numbers are plummeting...

    It's becoming clear as to who is being blamed over the shutdown...

    Michale

  11. [11] 
    Michale wrote:

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/113980/Gallup-Daily-Obama-Job-Approval.aspx

    Obama's numbers are plummeting...

    It's becoming clear as to who is being blamed over the shutdown...

    Michale

  12. [12] 
    Michale wrote:

    What the hell!??

    I swear, I am not doing this!!!

    Michale

  13. [13] 
    TheStig wrote:

    "John Boehner, who more and more has taken on the aspect of a trapped feral weasel"

    Over the top description by CW? I think not!

    A feral animal is a domesticated animal that has gone wild. Boehner has been housed and fed for many election cycles by big business, so the the domesticated requirement is met.

    Going rogue with the tea party indicates he has escaped to the wild, although big business is still probably putting out dishes of food and water in hopes he comes back. Was Boehner "chipped?"

    Is Boehner actually a member of the weasel clan?
    A ferret perhaps?

    "Ferrets are crepuscular, which means they spend 14–18 hours a day asleep and are most active around the hours of dawn and dusk" Check, although most ferrets don't have bar tabs.

    "A group of ferrets is commonly referred to as a "business"" - another big check!

    "When excited, they may perform a routine commonly referred to as the weasel war dance" - another check, plenty of video footage in support.

    "ferrets have scent glands near their anus" - not confirmed, and I'm not about to check this one out.

    All quotes courtesy of Wikipedia.

  14. [14] 
    TheStig wrote:

    Michael, do we need special glasses to see the stereo effect of 11-12. Beer goggles?

  15. [15] 
    TheStig wrote:

    Does ANYONE have a verifiable success story of someone who has signed up for obamacare and LIKED IT???

    People tend to forget the rocky rollout of GW Bush's Medicare Section D...but that program is now 3rd rail popular.

    I've never liked signing up for any insurance program. Lots of unintelligible instructions, unclear options, fine print etc. You will never hear....

    "Hey kids, it's a beautiful day! Let's sign up for Insurance"

    Yay!!!! You're the best daddy ever!"

    The process is inherently a pain in the butt.

    You can sort see why the Obama Admin started the signup a year ahead of the next election...and why Republicans might want to delay things a year.

    I don't see any reason to push the panic button yet.

  16. [16] 
    Michale wrote:

    IN other words, you have no verifiable story of an actual successful obamacare online sign up... :D

    More than two years...

    The ample and awesome resources of this entire great country.

    And the obamacare rollout has LESS THAN A 1% SUCCESS RATE!!!

    Now, I don't care WHO you are or WHAT your political persuasion...

    THAT is downright pathetic...

    Michael, do we need special glasses to see the stereo effect of 11-12. Beer goggles?

    Hehehehehe I honestly don't know what happened. The software CW uses is designed to prevent just such an occurrence...

    Michale

  17. [17] 
    Michale wrote:

    You would think that the Left would be screaming to the high heavens about the successful sign ups for obamacare.

    The fact that there is none is a pretty good indication that there is none...

    I'm just sayin'....

    Michale

  18. [18] 
    Michale wrote:

    http://hotair.com/archives/2013/10/05/nyt-reporter-obama-admin-most-closed-control-freak-administration-ive-ever-covered/

    Such promise from this administration...

    "Oh how the mighty have fallen...."
    -Guinan, STAR TREK: THE NEXT GENERATION, Deja-Q

    Michale

  19. [19] 
    BashiBazouk wrote:

    Here [washing post] is a good story as to why the exchanges are having problems. I did not realize all the different department servers a request required to give an estimate. Reading the comments in tech blogs gave me the realization that part of the problem is that not just those who legally need to sign up for health insurance are trying out the exchange website but a large cross section of country. Many just want to check out the new government program, some are curious as to how the prices compare to their existing insurance. Reminds me of the old Slashdotting effect back in the day. The GTA online servers were hammered this morning and multiple tries could not get me on though I was able to get on yesterday. So, public and corporate complex internet services have problems at launch. Talk to me in January when people's policies actually start...

  20. [20] 
    Michale wrote:

    Talk to me in January when people's policies actually start...

    If people can't sign up, there won't be any policies to start...

    "Hello!!?? McFly!!!??"
    -Biff Tanner, BACK TO THE FUTURE

    Michale

  21. [21] 
    Michale wrote:

    Again...

    Two years...

    The best resource of talent on the planet...

    There is absolutely NO EXCUSE for this kind of rollout..

    But, because it's a DEMOCRAT project, ya'all make the excuses...

    If a Republican project had this kind of start, ya'all would be screaming to high heaven.

    Don't bother to deny it because we ALL know it's true....

    Michale

  22. [22] 
    Michale wrote:

    Still no successful obamacare sign up???

    Fascinating....

    Michale

  23. [23] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    Well, Michale, as I always say ... anything worth saying is worth repeating again and again and again ... :)

  24. [24] 
    BashiBazouk wrote:

    The best resource of talent on the planet...

    You mean the lowest cost contract bid, right? Or bids (plural) then sub-contracted out beyond that? It is the federal government after all.

    I'm sure they could have made it 100% bullet proof for every American to hit the site at once but would have pushed up the cost by an order of magnitude or two. It's a tough call. Do you grossly over build to handle a single serious traffic spike the first few days then have a bunch of dark servers for years or do you build for peak traffic over the long haul and have problems in the beginning? Personally I prefer the later as it's much cheaper even if it's a little embarrassing for Obama. If history is a guide Rockstar, Blizzard and many other top companies seem to also agree with that strategy...

    If a Republican project had this kind of start, ya'all would be screaming to high heaven.

    Maybe, but I do know you would be as silent as you accuse us. How does that make you any less partisan?

  25. [25] 
    nypoet22 wrote:

    TWO FRAKIN' YEARS and all the considerable resources of the entire country at their disposal..

    And it has a LESS THAN 1% success rate!!

    And ya'all STILL think it's a great system!!???

    i have absolutely no idea whether obamacare will turn out to be a monumental success, a complete disaster, or (my own conjecture) slightly better than nothing. however, one thing i can say with some degree of certainty is that the present less-than-stellar roll-out shall have practically nothing to do with the ultimate success or failure of the program.

    i mean sheesh, it took social security a solid decade to work out most of the kinks, and that was widely popular from the get-go. opinion on the ACA on the other hand is extremely mixed.

    regardless, i don't get how anyone can judge the success (or failure) of a brand new nation-wide government program based on the events of its first week of sign-ups. had the first day of sign-ups gone off without a hitch, that would not necessarily have prevented the exchanges from failing royally, if that is indeed what they are headed for. same is true of the inverse.

    judging the insurance exchanges now is like judging the overall long-term success of a baseball franchise by the fact that the bus broke down and the players never made it for the first day of spring training.

    “Its getting late early”
    ? Yogi Berra

  26. [26] 
    Chris Weigant wrote:

    OK, I've answered most of the rest of the week's comments, but I have to go watch SNL now, so I'll get to this column tomorrow. But I just have to say right now...

    TheStig -

    I did wonder whether anyone would notice that "trapped feral weasel" comment, so I am indeed glad that someone did!

    :-)

    -CW

  27. [27] 
    Michale wrote:

    Liz,

    Well, Michale, as I always say ... anything worth saying is worth repeating again and again and again ... :)

    Yea, I don't know what happened. Maybe it's karma.. :D

    Maybe CW's software knows what an awesome point I am making and wants to help out.. :D

    Bashi,

    If a Republican project had this kind of start, ya'all would be screaming to high heaven.

    Maybe,

    Aww, come'on! No "maybe" about it. You forget, I was here during the Bush years. I know for an absolute fact that ya'all would have savaged Bush over something like this..

    Go read some of the comments during the Bush administration... It'll be an eye opener.. :D

    but I do know you would be as silent as you accuse us.

    Assumes facts not in evidence.

    It's a stone cold fact that I have savaged Republicans when they have deserved it..

    I am an equal-opportunity savager.. I care not for the '-x' behind a person's name... :D

    That makes me unique amongst Weigantians..

    JL,

    regardless, i don't get how anyone can judge the success (or failure) of a brand new nation-wide government program based on the events of its first week of sign-ups. had the first day of sign-ups gone off without a hitch, that would not necessarily have prevented the exchanges from failing royally, if that is indeed what they are headed for. same is true of the inverse.

    But, HAD the first week gone without a hitch and everything worked fine, the entire Left (including all Weigantians) would be swooning and rejoicing as to how awesome obamacare was...

    Give this, since things HAVE been a train wreck the first week, is it not only fair to call out the bad as exuberantly as ya'all would have called out the good??

    judging the insurance exchanges now is like judging the overall long-term success of a baseball franchise by the fact that the bus broke down and the players never made it for the first day of spring training.

    Not really. obamacare has been "playing" for almost a week...

    To use your baseball analogy, it would be the top of the 2nd and Team Obama gave up 120 runs with 99 errors, 44 walks and 22 grand slam home runs. Team Obama only got out of the inning because the other team was embarrassed for Team Obama and gave the outs.......

    Yea, it's only the 2nd inning and anything can happen.

    But, as of the end of the first inning, Team Obama is a train wreck... This is an undeniable fact...

    "Sir!!? What does three up and three down mean to you airman!??"
    "End of an inning???"

    -Good Morning, Vietnam

    :D

    Michale

  28. [28] 
    BashiBazouk wrote:

    Assumes facts not in evidence.

    Assumes facts in massive, overwhelming evidence. Many here have savaged democrats much more than you have EVER savaged republicans.

    I am an equal-opportunity savager.. I care not for the '-x' behind a person's name... :D

    That makes me unique amongst Weigantians..

    I repeat, name a major republican policy you have "savaged" during the Obama administration or a anti-left bandwagon you have not got on. Opposite maybe but far from unique.

    You play an independent but there is no evidence you actually are one. At this point I think you are to the right of the tea party...

  29. [29] 
    Michale wrote:

    Bashi,

    Assumes facts in massive, overwhelming evidence. Many here have savaged democrats much more than you have EVER savaged republicans.

    Prove it..

    Show me ONE comment that "savaged" Democrats for any non-political actions..

    By "non-political" I mean you can't use any comments that "savaged" Democrats because they weren't tough enough against Republicans...

    I repeat, name a major republican policy you have "savaged" during the Obama administration or a anti-left bandwagon you have not got on. Opposite maybe but far from unique.

    There have been so many, I'll have to research it to find the best ones. I'll get to this tomorrow, promise.. :D

    Michale

  30. [30] 
    Michale wrote:

    Ya'all have gone on and on about what the Republicans are REALLY saying..

    Of course, ya'all are way off, but I figured I would give ya'all an example of what Democrats are REALLY saying...

    "Just totally surrender to our demands. Once you do that, we can sit down and talk about what you want.."

    Funny thing is, Republicans have done that time and time again, only to have Democrats turn around and totally screw over Republicans and the American people..

    So, personally, I think it's high time that Republicans give a hi-ho hearty "FRAK YOU" to the Democrats and stick to their guns..

    It's ironic..

    On the one side you have the Republicans and the American people...

    On the other side, you have Obama, the Democrats, corporate cronies and ya'all...

    Whatta crazy world it truly is... :D

    Michale

  31. [31] 
    Michale wrote:

    judging the insurance exchanges now is like judging the overall long-term success of a baseball franchise by the fact that the bus broke down and the players never made it for the first day of spring training.

    You don't get to pick and choose when the game starts based on how bad your team is playing..

    The game starts when the game starts..

    The obamacare game started at 0001 hrs, Tues 1 Oct 2013.

    And, so far, it is completely and undeniably a train wreck...

    "These are the facts. And they are undisputed"
    -Captain Jack Ross, A FEW GOOD MEN

    Does ANYONE here believe that if any other online venture had started with a 99%+ FAILURE rate, that ANYONE can claim the startup was a "success" as Obama and the Democrats are claiming???

    Seriously, PLEASE tell me there is NO ONE here that agrees with the White House on this??

    It would be VERY damaging to my psyche...

    Michale

  32. [32] 
    Michale wrote:

    CW, You mentioned in a previous commentary about the "lie" that Palin told about Death Panels..

    Do you REALLY want to go there??

    Because I would be happy to bring up the "You can keep your doctor" and "you can keep your plan" and all the other "lies" told by Obama and the Democrats about obamacare...

    Do you REALLY want to hoe that row?? :D

    Michale

  33. [33] 
    nypoet22 wrote:

    You don't get to pick and choose when the game starts based on how bad your team is playing..

    i want obamacare to succeed because its success would be good for the country, not because it would be good for obama. i can't speak for anyone else, but my team is the united states of america.

    even if we were to presume for the sake of argument that this were the regular season and not just spring training, many great teams get blown out on opening day and go on to win the world series. that aside, i maintain that since january 2014 is when the insurance coverage begins, the ACA is still in the baseball equivalent of the grapefruit league.

    People who write about spring training not being necessary have never tried to throw a baseball.
    Sandy Koufax

  34. [34] 
    Michale wrote:

    Let me flip this around..

    Let's postulate a scenario where the rollout of obamacare was FLAWLESS.. It was perfect. It went off without a hitch.. And MILLIONS of people were able to sign up for low cost, high care health insurance plans..

    What would ya'alls response be if I were to say, "It's only been a week. obamacare STILL might be a train wreck!!!"

    Ya'all would laugh yerselves silly, right!?

    So, tell me.. How is that any different than what ya'all are claiming???

    JL,

    Spring Training has been the last couple years...

    1 Oct was the first day of the new season. Team Obama has had 6 games since the start of the season...

    They have been totally and utterly decimated each and every game..

    I agree that obamacare MAY get better.... I also agree that it is too early to give obamacare a final grade..

    But what ya'all simply *CANNOT* deny is that, at this point in time, obamacare *IS* a train wreck...

    That point is simply NOT open for debate...

    Michale

  35. [35] 
    Michale wrote:

    That point is simply NOT open for debate...

    To be more accurate, that point is simply not CAPABLE of being debated...

    Michale

  36. [36] 
    Michale wrote:

    But what ya'all simply *CANNOT* deny is that, at this point in time, obamacare *IS* a train wreck...

    Don't take my word for it. Read all the messages from the *official* government obamacare Facebook page...

    Michale

  37. [37] 
    nypoet22 wrote:

    What would ya'alls response be if I were to say, "It's only been a week. obamacare STILL might be a train wreck!!!"

    i'd say the same thing i'm saying now. there is currently not enough data to make any sort of judgment.

  38. [38] 
    nypoet22 wrote:

    That point is simply NOT open for debate...

    [snip]

    To be more accurate, that point is simply not CAPABLE of being debated...

    i agree. it's currently not a point worth debating. i say it's irrelevant, you say it matters. if it had gone without a hitch and you said it was irrelevant, i would back you up. i think my opinion on this has been pretty consistent.

    JL

  39. [39] 
    Michale wrote:

    i agree. it's currently not a point worth debating. i say it's irrelevant, you say it matters.

    It only matters insofar as it's being denied..

    There really can be no denying that, AT THIS TIME, obamacare is a train wreck..

    If you want to add the caveat that it's still early, I'll accept that.

    But trying to put lipstick on this pig does a disservice to logical and rational discourse...

    In other words, call a spade a spade for chreest's sake!

    But, I'll be yer huckleberry...

    At what point in time does the train wreck become relevant??

    A week?? A month?? A year??

    Give me a point in time...

    Michale

  40. [40] 
    Michale wrote:

    On another note...

    Given the facts of the here and now....

    Doesn't a one year delay make a LOT of sense???

    Michale

    Aside to Bashi... I haven't forgetten you... I'll be finding those examples for ya.. :D

  41. [41] 
    Michale wrote:

    i'd say the same thing i'm saying now. there is currently not enough data to make any sort of judgment.

    There isn't enough data to make a judgement on what obamacare is going to be like in 3 months, 6 months or a year..

    But there is a BUTTLOAD of data to make a judgement on what obamacare is like right now...

    And that's my only point.... The Left (present company excluded, of course. :D) WOULD make that judgement, if the picture was rosier...

    But because the facts show "train wreck", the Left doesn't want to make any judgement.. Hell, the Obama Administration won't release ANY numbers on how many people have signed up...

    You just HAVE to know that THAT means the number is embarrassingly small.... Let's face it.. This administration has absolutely NO PROBLEM touting and shouting GOOD information.. Or, more accurately, information that paints the administration in a good light...

    Michale

  42. [42] 
    Michale wrote:

    Further, you really can't compare obamacare to ANY large scale legislative change that has occurred in the history of this country.

    Because there has NEVER been such legislative change that was brought about by such a hyper-partisan manner and that the American people have been consistently against from the time it was debated, thru the time it was planned, right up until and THRU it's implementation..

    That's the point ya'all simply NEVER address..

    At absolutely NO TIME in it's long and sordid and hyper-partisan history has the American people supported or even WANTED obamacare...

    NEVER....

    So, you can't compare obamacare to Social Security, to medicare or any other large scale legislative change..

    obamacare is a train wreck unto itself...

    Michale

  43. [43] 
    Michale wrote:

    i think my opinion on this has been pretty consistent.

    Yes it has...

    But yer the exception that proves the rule... :D

    Michale

  44. [44] 
    akadjian wrote:

    I know you can't acknowledge Boehner's genius in making this happen.

    I can't stop laughing. I never thought I'd hear "Boehner" and "genius" in the same sentence.

    Ok, seriously though.

    I think this is getting close to an end. The U.S. Chamber of Commerce has just stepped up to say they'll fund any moderate Republicans facing challenges from the Tea Party during the next election.

    This is how nutty the Tea Party has gotten. They've lost the Chamber of Commerce.

    -David

  45. [45] 
    nypoet22 wrote:

    Give me a point in time...

    already did.

    http://www.chrisweigant.com/2013/09/27/ftp275/#comment-42129

  46. [46] 
    Michale wrote:

    I think this is getting close to an end.

    Yea, but ya'all thought it would never happen. Then ya'all thought it wouldn't go more than a couple days.. :D

    The problem here is that Obama and the Democrats have screwed over the Republicans one too many times..

    This "just do what we want and then we'll talk about what you want" schtick from Obama and the Dems just ain't going to work this time..

    JL,

    already did.

    A year??

    Hmmmmmm I don't think we should give it THAT long..

    I mean, using the online video game comparison that's been batted around, if you payed $80 for an awesome new online game and the servers had more than a 99% failure rate, would you want to wait a YEAR before demanding a refund or changes??

    30 days.. If the train-wreck we have now is the same train-wreck in 30 days, then there is ample evidence to declare obamacare a train-wreck..

    They have had TWO YEARS to insure this didn't happen.

    What makes you think another year will make any difference??

    Michale

  47. [47] 
    Michale wrote:

    Yea, but ya'all thought it would never happen. Then ya'all thought it wouldn't go more than a couple days.. :D

    I would also (quite humbly, I might add :D) point out that I called it perfectly to date. :D

    Seriously though, this is likely to continue at least til Weds and perhaps even beyond..

    Like I said, Obama and the Democrats have proven time and time again that they simply cannot be trusted. Their word is less than meaningless..

    If Boehner is the one who blinks, his speakership is over..

    On the other hand, if Obama blinks he will likely not pay any political price whatsoever. His sycophants ARE delusional, but they ARE loyal above all else...

    It's really that simple..

    Michale

  48. [48] 
    Michale wrote:

    OK, Bashi...

    First, let me say up front that this is an unmitigated and unequivocal cop out on my part. No argument from me on that whatsoever...

    But, it occurred to me on the way home yesterday, "Why should I be the one who has to review 15,330 posts of mine (6 posts per day (avg) * 365 days * 7 years) to find the times I have savaged Republicans for being idiots, morons or what have you..."

    So, I decided to share the load...

    For every post you find from the Weigantia regulars that savages Democrats for acts not involving partisan politics, I will find a corresponding comment from me that savages Republicans for being stoopid in a no-stoopid zone...

    I think that's only fair since you claimed that there are many such posts..

    In other words, you claim that ya'all savage Democrats (for non partisan reasons) much more than I savage Republicans..

    If I have to show you mine, you have to show me yours.. :D

    Michale

  49. [49] 
    Michale wrote:

    CW,

    Don't think I mentioned this but thanx for the previous attribute fix.. :D Much appreciated..

    Michale

  50. [50] 
    Michale wrote:

    David,

    I can't stop laughing. I never thought I'd hear "Boehner" and "genius" in the same sentence.

    Yea, but that's just political ideological speaking.

    If you were politically non-biased you would have to give credit where credit is due.

    Ya'all thought Boehner couldn't hold his people together to even GET the shut down.

    Then ya'all thought Boehner couldn't keep control of his people past a day or so..

    It's been a WEEK and, from all reports, the resolve of the Right is becoming more and more steel...

    Credit where credit is due....

    I honestly believe that Obama will cave.. Hell, he caved so pathetically and pitifully on Syria and THAT was after 2000+ people were brutally gassed to death. His frakin' SecState is actually PRAISING Assad!!

    If Obama would cave on something THAT bad and perverse, this shouldn't be any big deal..

    On the other hand, Obama seems to hate Republicans (who are nothing more than fellow Americans who believe different than Obama does) more than he hates terrorists and brutal dictators, so it's not outside the realm of possibility that he will let terrorists and brutal thugs slide, but hold fast against fellow Americans..

    I am not sure that's a good thing, however...

    Michale

  51. [51] 
    Michale wrote:

    CW,

    You gave Obama an MIDOTW award for "standing strong" and not caving..

    But yet you (and most everyone else here) are on record as attacking Republicans for doing the exact same thing..

    Why is it that, when Democrats stand strong, it's praise and award worthy...

    But when Republicans stand strong, they are being obstinate and terrorists and the "Party Of No"???

    I think it's a fair question...

    Michale

  52. [52] 
    akadjian wrote:

    The problem here is that Obama and the Democrats have screwed over the Republicans one too many times.

    I think the problem is a small minority threatening to shut the government down if they don't get their way.

    Think what any outside group would be called if they were doing this!

    -David

  53. [53] 
    nypoet22 wrote:

    I mean, using the online video game comparison that's been batted around, if you payed $80 for an awesome new online game and the servers had more than a 99% failure rate, would you want to wait a YEAR before demanding a refund or changes??

    30 days.. If the train-wreck we have now is the same train-wreck in 30 days, then there is ample evidence to declare obamacare a train-wreck..

    if you were going to impose your own timeline anyway, why did you ask for mine? the video game comparison was regarding internet bandwidth issues, it wasn't offered as a parallel for judging one's purchase. if the sign-up issue is completely fixed within a month it will still be irrelevant to the success or failure of the program. nobody even gets to use their new insurance until january, and insurance is the kind of product you don't use all at once. folks will have to make doctor appointments, get sick, get injured, actually LIVE with the insurance to see whether or not it works for them. generally it's a year later when you decide to renew that you assess whether or not your insurance is worth keeping. therefore i stand by my date of january, 2015.

    JL

  54. [54] 
    Michale wrote:

    David,

    I think the problem is a small minority threatening to shut the government down if they don't get their way.

    Actually, it's the Party of the majority that has control over whether the shutdown is in effect or not.

    Just agree to the one year delay, like they gave their corporate cronies..

    Considering the events of the last week, it's blatantly obvious that obamacare NEEDS a year delay..

    JL,

    if you were going to impose your own timeline anyway, why did you ask for mine?

    I am not imposing it. I simply offer it up for consideration. Considering the circumstances and the apt (and logical analogy) 30 days seems a lot more reasonable than one year..

    if the sign-up issue is completely fixed within a month it will still be irrelevant to the success or failure of the program.

    Ahhh I see the confusion..

    If people can't sign up for obamacare, then obamacare is a failure..

    Because we simply cannot judge how effective obamacare would be on the insurance/medical side if people can't even sign up.

    Wouldn't you agree??

    Michale

  55. [55] 
    Michale wrote:

    Think what any outside group would be called if they were doing this!

    What would they be called??

    Regardless, Obama and the Democrats are firmly in control of the issue.

    It's the "no negotiating" stance on the part of Obama and the Democrats that is the problem...

    A stance, I might add, that ya'all have savaged Republicans for time and time again..

    But, when a Democrat does it, it's praise worthy...

    Michale

  56. [56] 
    akadjian wrote:

    It's the "no negotiating" stance on the part of Obama and the Democrats that is the problem.

    Step 1- Rage about government for 30 years.

    Step 2- Shut down government. Demand undoing of negotiated law.

    Step 3- Blame Democrats and claim they won't "compromise" or "negotiate".

    A Democrat negotiation equals let's try to figure out a solution which works for both sides. A Republican negotiation equals give me what I want or we'll wreck the government.

    -David

  57. [57] 
    Michale wrote:

    A Democrat negotiation equals let's try to figure out a solution which works for both sides.

    How do you reconcile that statement with the statements from Obama that there will be "no negotiation".....

    Doesn't seem to be POSSIBLE to do so...

    Michale

  58. [58] 
    Michale wrote:

    In THIS particular case, the Democrat negotiation is "Do what WE want, unconditionally surrender and THEN we'll talk about what you want..."

    That's not negotiation..

    Michale

  59. [59] 
    akadjian wrote:

    If it's a negotiation, what are Republicans prepared to offer in return for what they want?

    Democrats have already compromised by ...

    1. Funding the government at conservative sequester levels
    2. Delaying the 1-year ACA requirement for businesses
    3. Going with a market based solution over the public option and single payer

    What are Republicans prepared to offer?

    Other than returning the hostage they took?

    -David

    BTW, if hostage taking starts working, why wouldn't the Tea Party just make the threat again and again every time they want something?

  60. [60] 
    michty6 wrote:

    Good stuff CW. Great point about the complete mess of the Obama-care site issues going unnoticed because of the lunatic takeover of Congress. Also the No Budget No Pay stuff. I would add:

    1. Whilst I understand there are technical glitches, I think it is a huge error and issue not to have the site working better. If I was Obama I would've spent every single minute of the past few years making sure this roll-out was as smooth as possible - since any issues at all would be seized upon with glee by the Right Wing echo chamber. He is INCREDIBLY lucky that Republicans were too busy shooting themselves in the foot with their maniacal moves on the CR budget as this was happening... He dodged a major bullet here with Republicans own stupidity costing them big time.

    2. The Democrats measure is nice, but by all reports won't work. Whilst the majority of the House support the clean CR measure, not enough (or any...yet) Republicans support forcing the bill to the floor in this manner that is essentially a revolt against their leadership.

    3. Whilst you have praised Obama for not caving, I disagree. There was nothing for Obama to cave on, Republicans gave him absolutely nothing. That is what is so hilarious about their negotiating position and how they've had to just stick their heads up their asses and shut down Government. Believe me, if there was opportunity to cave Obama would've jumped on it - but with the roll-out all set to go (and 'go horribly' it would turn out) he was offered absolutely nothing he could agree with. So what you're essentially saying is 'when offered a ludicrous moronic deal that is impossible to accept, Obama doesn't cave!'. I hardly feel that this is worth getting excited about...

  61. [61] 
    Michale wrote:

    If it's a negotiation, what are Republicans prepared to offer in return for what they want?

    They have already conceded from defunding obamacare to giving the same delay to the middle class that Obama gave to his corporate cronies..

    What are Democrats willing to offer?? "We'll talk about it after you surrender"...

    That's not negotiating..

    Here's another example of Obama's Make It Hurt strategy..

    http://therightscoop.com/obama-plays-politics-with-your-lost-children-shuts-down-amber-alert-website/

    Obama shuts down the AMBER ALERT website, but leave's his wife pet project website up...

    So, who is taking hostages and who isn't??

    Seems clear it's Obama and the Democrats...

    Just like Reid and his "why should we help kids with cancer" comment..

    So, who is taking hostages and who isn't??

    Michale

  62. [62] 
    Michale wrote:
  63. [63] 
    Michale wrote:

    With Democrats it's, "We're going to keep our train wreck obamacare intact or we're going to ignore kids with cancer. We're going to make sure kidnapped kids have no chance of rescue"

    I ask again. Who is taking hostages here??

    Clearly it's Obama and the Democrats...

    Michale

  64. [64] 
    Michale wrote:

    I have to admit.. I am honestly and truly surprised..

    I would have thought, after all the hullabaloo and all the posturing about how awesome obamacare is, I would have thought ya'all would have been able to find ONE PERSON who has successfully signed up for obamacare and were happy about it...

    Just ONE.... :D

    Michale

  65. [65] 
    michty6 wrote:
  66. [66] 
    michty6 wrote:

    I don't need to sign up for Obama-care, I live in one of the many civilized, modern societies that believes health-care is a basic human right.

    Don't worry, one day you'll become a civilized modern society too - although you'll be brought there kicking and dragging and screaming with all your Tea Party friends...

  67. [67] 
    Michale wrote:

    http://www.ktnv.com/news/local/Lake-Mead-Property-Owners-Forced-Out-Until-Gov-Shutdown-Ends-226557661.html

    More hostages being taken by Obama and the Democrats...

    Obama's Make-It-Hurt strategy is alive and well....

    So much for the claim that Obama and the Democrats are "warriors for the middle class"..

    This clearly proves that they are "warriors for their corporate cronies against the middle class".

    That's just GOT ta hurt..

    Michale

  68. [68] 
    Michale wrote:

    I don't need to sign up for Obama-care, I live in one of the many civilized, modern societies that believes health-care is a basic human right.

    Yea, and what quality health care it is.... NOT!!!!

    Health care as a basic human right. How utterly laughable..

    What's next?? Masarati in every garage is a basic human right???

    BWWAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :D

    Don't worry, one day you'll become a civilized modern society too - although you'll be brought there kicking and dragging and screaming with all your Tea Party friends...

    Yer just pissy that we kicked yer asses a couple hundred years ago.. Now ya just want to drag us down to your pathetic health care level..

    Have you READ the horror stories of Brits and their "universal health care"??

    It's universal all right.. Universally bad...

    Michale

  69. [69] 
    Michale wrote:

    For you Michale: http://thenewyorkcrank.blogspot.ca/2013/10/why-i-shot-guy-in-head.html

    What is it about ya'all that you enjoy comparing apples and alligators??

    You can make up all the terrorist/armed robbery faux-analogies you want.. Which I think is silly because it's clear that it's Obama and the Democrats who are the ones taking hostages, not the Republicans...

    But that still doesn't change the fact that Obama and the Democrats are not willing to negotiate on obamacare..

    A position that ya'all CONSTANTLY whine and complain about when the Republicans do it..

    So, once again.. Another perfect example of how that little '-x' makes ALL the difference in the world..

    Except to people like me of course...

    Michale

  70. [70] 
    BashiBazouk wrote:

    Show me ONE comment that "savaged" Democrats for any non-political actions..

    I have consistently criticized democrats for gun control legislation. Even going so far as to accuse them of being in the pockets of gun manufacturers, as all gun control legislation ever seems to do is give a short burst of gun buying. I don't use republican or NRA talking points as I both don't think they hold up to the statistics especially when compared to other modern industrialized counties and I just have a completely different take on the 2nd amendment. If I have time, I'll find one of the actual posts...

    But, it occurred to me on the way home yesterday, "Why should I be the one who has to review 15,330 posts of mine (6 posts per day (avg) * 365 days * 7 years) to find the times I have savaged Republicans for being idiots, morons or what have you..."

    Considering the sheer volume of your posts if you have to go back more than a few months it would put the ratio of dem/repub criticism to 100 to 1. If you have to go back more than a year, 1000 to 1. And I'm probably being overly generous with the ratio. Something to think about...

  71. [71] 
    nypoet22 wrote:

    If people can't sign up for obamacare, then obamacare is a failure..

    Because we simply cannot judge how effective obamacare would be on the insurance/medical side if people can't even sign up.

    Wouldn't you agree??

    if signing up were still not possible by january 2014 (when the policies actually go into effect), then i would judge it a failure until signing up was possible, for the reason you stated. since we have not yet arrived at the point where policies are in use, i judge the signing-up issues to thus far be irrelevant.

    JL

  72. [72] 
    Michale wrote:

    Bashi,

    I have consistently criticized democrats for gun control legislation.

    Really?? Do tell.. Because I don't recall you ever taking Democrats and Obama to task for their ridiculous stance on guns...

    I would be ecstatic if you can prove me wrong. I really would.. :D

    If I have time, I'll find one of the actual posts...

    That would be awesome. To be fair, I DO recall you taking michty to task for his ridiculous stats that don't really prove anything..

    In the interests of fairness, you have done the same to me as well. :D

    But that's a far cry from actually condemning and opposing Obama and the Democrats for their ridiculous stance on guns..

    But, as I said.. I would love to concede the point.. :D

    Considering the sheer volume of your posts if you have to go back more than a few months it would put the ratio of dem/repub criticism to 100 to 1. If you have to go back more than a year, 1000 to 1. And I'm probably being overly generous with the ratio. Something to think about...

    If I were so inclined, I probably could put to doubt that ratio...

    But it's a moot point really. My independence from ideological slavery is well established..

    I can easily call out a Republican (even Bush!!!) for stupid and moronic stunts..

    But no one here can utter a thing against Obama. It's almost as if they think their tongues would surely turn to fire... (Kewpie to anyone who can cite the reference. :D)

    There is simply no comparison.. Obama has done some things that, if it he had been a GOP POTUS, ya'all would have crucified him.... But, because he is a DEM POTUS, it's like "Eh.. Yea.. That's bad.. BUT REPUBLICANS ARE EVIL TERRORISTS!!!

    Regardless, I am happy with my independence.. :D

    if signing up were still not possible by january 2014 (when the policies actually go into effect), then i would judge it a failure until signing up was possible, for the reason you stated. since we have not yet arrived at the point where policies are in use, i judge the signing-up issues to thus far be irrelevant.

    OK Now we're making progress.. You started out at a year, I started with 30 days, now yer down to 3 months..

    You see...

    THAT is how negotiations are done.

    THAT is how compromises are made....

    Why can't Obama and the Democrats learn that???

    Give the American middle class the SAME consideration that they gave their corporate cronies..

    They agree to that and the shutdown ends today AND the debt ceiling gets raised...

    Talk about illogical....

    Michale

  73. [73] 
    Michale wrote:

    Look, it's really not rocket science here, people..

    All I am asking for is that, when Obama and the Democrats commit acts that you have condemned Republicans for committing, that you condemn Obama and Democrats in the same exuberant and passionate manner that you condemn Republicans..

    Now... If you CAN'T (or more accurately, WON'T) do that, then I would like you to concede that you won't/don't because the Dems get a pass that you don't allow the Right...

    Other than the fact that it's the right thing to do, if you do concede that point, you will likely negate 80% of my future arguments...

    I would think that right there would be a helluva an incentive to state publicly and for the record what I already know to be true.

    Ya'all give Obama and the Democrats a pass on horrendous acts, barbaric acts, disgusting acts because they are Democrats. And you are loyal to Democrats uber alles...

    Michale

  74. [74] 
    akadjian wrote:

    Give the American middle class the SAME consideration that they gave their corporate cronies..

    They agree to that and the shutdown ends today AND the debt ceiling gets raised...

    Give us we want and we'll end the shutdown!!!

    (But then we'll threaten to shut it down again)

  75. [75] 
    BashiBazouk wrote:

    All I am asking for is that, when Boehner and the Republicans commit acts that you have condemned Democrats for committing, that you condemn Boehner and Republicans in the same exuberant and passionate manner that you condemn Democrats..

    Now... If you CAN'T (or more accurately, WON'T) do that, then I would like you to concede that you won't/don't because the Rebups get a pass that you don't allow the Left...

    Yup, works both ways. Still waiting for you to do the same. [72] contained a lot of back tracking...

    Third times a charm? Previous question:

    Name a major republican policy you have "savaged" during the Obama administration or a anti-left bandwagon you have not got on.

    Notice I did not ask for a specific comment citation. From memory is fine...

  76. [76] 
    Michale wrote:

    Give us we want and we'll end the shutdown!!!

    No...

    Give the American people, the Middle Class, what is FAIR....

    Isn't it fair to give Middle Class Americans the SAME consideration that ya'all gave corporate cronies??

    Isn't it??

    It's not???

    How come??

    Bashi,

    You show me yours, I'll show you mine... :D

    As I said, my political ideological independence is well-established....

    Michale

  77. [77] 
    BashiBazouk wrote:

    You show me yours, I'll show you mine... :D

    I just did via gun control. Your turn...

  78. [78] 
    Michale wrote:

    I just did via gun control. Your turn...

    Oh?? Is THAT all we're talking about?

    OK, I thought it was something hard.

    I oppose the Republicans stance on religion...

    I also oppose how Republicans are always so concerned with what goes on in people's bedrooms....

    That's two...

    Yer turn.. :D

    All joshing aside, I am glad to see that we agree on Democrat's ludicrous attempts at gun control..

    First GTA and now this... Holy crap!!! :D

    Michale

  79. [79] 
    Michale wrote:

    Give us we want and we'll end the shutdown!!!

    I am also constrained to point out that THAT is exactly what Democrats and Obama are saying...

    "Give me what I want and I'll go away"
    -Mr Lenoge, STORM OF THE CENTURY

    Michale

  80. [80] 
    michty6 wrote:

    Health care as a basic human right. How utterly laughable..

    What's next?? Masarati in every garage is a basic human right???

    Lolol obviously you're not a fan of the UN Convention on Human Rights. Or any of the civilized countries that agree with this (see below). But yeh imagine giving people the right to live. Shocking behavior. Completely comparable to giving them the right to a car...

    Have you READ the horror stories of Brits and their "universal health care"??

    It's universal all right.. Universally bad...

    Lololol amazing. Another clueless Fox New/Limbaugh/Echo Chamber based opinion on something you don't have a clue about. No I haven't READ your Fox News garbage because I live in a fact-based world. Maybe you should actually just spend 5 minutes looking into how universally popular our healthcare system is? Like so popular that they've stopped even polling on 'getting rid of it' because such polls showed 95%+ of people support it.

    The same (95%+) level of support can be found in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Sweden, Iceland, Norway, Denmark (basically every country in Europe), Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Israel etc etc etc

    Heck even Russia is ahead on you on this front.

    Don't worry. Like I said, you'll get there eventually even if the lunatic, maniac, moronic people like the people you listen to and party you support have to be dragged along kicking and screaming...

    We'll catch up with the US eventually too. Our current costs haven't quite reached your 1995 costs but you know we're trying. Must be because our system is so awful - giving everyone access at a lower cost - AWFUL stuff. Makes me cry (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Total_health_expenditure_per_capita%2C_US_Dollars_PPP.png)

  81. [81] 
    michty6 wrote:

    Pretty good article on Boehner, also comparing the current Republican shut-down to the last Republican one: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24433182

  82. [82] 
    Michale wrote:

    Lolol obviously you're not a fan of the UN Convention on Human Rights.

    Was that the same UN who made 9 BILLION dollars off the Iraqi Oil program??

    The same UN that went down to Africa to disarm rebels and ended up arming them at a substantial profit?

    The same UN that releases that utterly contemptible and self serving climate change report??

    Is THAT the UN you are referring to??

    What a joke...

    Looks like Reid has been put in charge of the shutdown/debt ceiling negotiations..

    hehehehehehehehehehehe

    The GOP is likely to OWN the Senate with Reid in charge... :D

    Michale

  83. [83] 
    michty6 wrote:

    ^ Lol a far-right-wing American criticizing the international activities and foreign policies of the UN. I've seen everything now...

  84. [84] 
    michty6 wrote:
  85. [85] 
    Michale wrote:

    ^ Lol a far-right-wing American criticizing the international activities and foreign policies of the UN. I've seen everything now...

    No, this registered NPA is criticizing the UN for being a selfish and self-serving entity that is the epitome of any corporate greed..

    The fact that YOU actually preach the UN in addition to backing the Democrats against middle class Americans really comes as no surprise...

    Michale

  86. [86] 
    nypoet22 wrote:

    OK Now we're making progress.. You started out at a year, I started with 30 days, now yer down to 3 months...

    You see...

    THAT is how negotiations are done.

    THAT is how compromises are made....

    Why can't Obama and the Democrats learn that???

    i thought we were just talking about two different issues, and cleared up the differences by keeping the issues separate.

    [snark]
    Why can't Boehner and the Republicans learn that???
    [/snark]

    JL

  87. [87] 
    Michale wrote:

    Still, the studies contained a paradox that the authors of the BMJ article failed to notice or, at any rate, to remark upon. On several measures of actual achievement, rather than subjective assessment, the NHS came out the worst of all the systems examined. For example, it ranked worst for five-year survival rates in cervical, breast, and colon cancer. It was also worst for 30-day mortality rates after admission to a hospital for either hemorrhagic or ischemic stroke. On only one clinical measure was it best: the avoidance of amputation of the foot in diabetic gangrene. More than one reason for this outcome is possible, but the most likely is that foot care for diabetics—a matter of no small importance—is well arranged in Britain; the amputation rate is four times higher in the United States.

    Overall, however, Britain seems to face a self-esteem problem: too much of it. How is it that the population most confident that it will receive treatment of the highest possible standard, featuring the latest medical advances, actually has the worst survival rates in precisely those diseases that require the most up-to-date treatments?
    http://www.city-journal.org/2012/22_3_otbie-british-health-care.html

    Yea... GREAT system ya got there..

    Like I said, yer just pissy cuz we kicked yer asses a couple hundred years ago and denied ya'all yer empire. :D

    Michale

  88. [88] 
    Michale wrote:

    JL,

    i thought we were just talking about two different issues, and cleared up the differences by keeping the issues separate.

    Well, no.. We were talking about the same issues. Simply exploring two different facets of it.

    My facet has to work first before your facet can be judged..

    And, as the facts show, the facet that I am talking about is a train-wreck..

    Time will tell if your facet even gets the chance to be judged...

    Michale

  89. [89] 
    Michale wrote:

    All seriousness aside...

    http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/10/07/once-upon-promo-blunder-snow-whites-magic-crotch/

    Now THAT was funny!!! :D

    Michale

  90. [90] 
    BashiBazouk wrote:

    I oppose the Republicans stance on religion...

    I also oppose how Republicans are always so concerned with what goes on in people's bedrooms....

    Wow, the lowest hanging fruit possible, eh?

    Anything that you have criticized in a "exuberant and passionate manner"?

    Also brings up a question of your support for Palin as she embodied the former strongly and the later a little bit....

  91. [91] 
    Michale wrote:

    Wow, the lowest hanging fruit possible, eh?

    As low as gun control.. :D

    Also brings up a question of your support for Palin as she embodied the former strongly and the later a little bit....

    Palin was unique and, at the time, had more leadership experience than Obama. That was fact...

    I have also supported Democrats when they were doing the right thing...

    These days, not so much... :D

    Michale

  92. [92] 
    michty6 wrote:

    Yea... GREAT system ya got there..

    True, there are problems. Hence why we're only ranked in 18th worldwide. We can do better.

    We certainly can't do worse than America, which despite spending the most per capita by a long, long, long, long, long, long, long way is ranked 38th. How is life treating you down there with Slovenia and Costa Rica?

    But naaaaaah the fact that almost every single country above you has public healthcare and almost every country below you is a developing country* is just a COINCIDENCE!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems

    * comparing developing countries to the USA in healthcare this is being a little unfair to developing countries. Some are more civilised and doing much better than the USA on healthcare, so it's a tad unfair to drag them down to American levels.

  93. [93] 
    BashiBazouk wrote:

    As low as gun control.. :D

    The difference is you have declared yourself atheist? Agnostic? I forget exactly but not religious in any case. It would be quite weird if you supported the republican religious stuff. That is what makes it such low hanging fruit. I also don't remember you ever arguing against either the religious or bedroom policies of the republicans. Though you are welcome to prove me wrong :D

    Though I do own guns, none of them a have ever been threatened by gun control legislation, all have been purchased under a 15 day waiting period and I have actually argued against gun control here. Big difference. Now if I was a collector of assault weapons or high capacity handguns and never mentioned the issue here then it would definitely be low hanging fruit for me.

  94. [94] 
    BashiBazouk wrote:

    Be careful with WHO rankings. I think many of the criticisms below the rankings on that wikipedia page are quite valid. It has more to do with a disparity in access and cost of healthcare overall rather than the quality of the health care. If you have decent employer based insurance and live near a major city the American healthcare system is second to none. Look at listings of top medical research universities or top hospitals. Not only do American medical establishments rank very high they also absolutely dominate with total numbers in the top 100. I have two top 10 research universities in the world within 20 miles, for example and with my current insurance can get in to either of them to see a specialist without problem.

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