ChrisWeigant.com

How About A Rent And Mortgage Holiday?

[ Posted Monday, March 23rd, 2020 – 15:48 UTC ]

I am not a macroeconomist. In fact, I am not an economist of any type whatsoever. I begin with these admissions because what I'm about to write is probably wrong in some major way, and/or impossible to accomplish, and/or would have some sort of counterproductive effect that I just haven't thought about. In other words, any real economist could probably shoot this idea full of holes without even breaking a sweat. But I feel I have to at least toss it out there for the purposes of discussion.

The COVID-19 crisis is deepening by the day. America is fast approaching (if we haven't already gotten there today) the point where 10,000 new cases will be announced on a daily basis. And those numbers are now going to be suspect, from this point on, because officials are now saying they won't even test people they are all but certain have the coronavirus unless they are hospitalized with a major case -- which means thousands and thousands of sick people won't even get tested, and therefore will never show up on the official statistics. The problem is not only bad and getting worse, it is now so out of control that we're essentially abandoning hope that we'll even have accurate statistics to track its exponential growth.

The economy is now officially in free fall. The stock market has lost over a third of its value, and shows no signs of bottoming out yet. Unemployment numbers are going to spike in a way never previously seen in this country -- some are even predicting the short-term unemployment rate will exceed the worst it hit during the Great Depression. That's stunning. Congress is working to hammer out a bailout deal that will likely turn out to be woefully inadequate to solve the problem, which will likely mean they'll have to come back for another bite at the apple within a few short weeks.

The one piece of this bailout that would affect most Americans directly is the possibility of a one-time $1,200 check in the mail for every adult and perhaps $500 for every child (the numbers have not yet been finalized). These will be means-tested to some degree, so that individuals making $100,000 or more per year won't get anything and those making between $75,000 and $100,000 will get a reduced benefit. Even so, almost everybody's going to get some free money in the mail from the government. This is intended to do two things at once: help those whose lives have drastically changed in the coronavirus economy, and pump lots of free-floating cash into the economy to help prop up businesses that still remain open.

So here's my radical idea: why not negotiate an across-the-board freeze on both mortgage payments and rent for the next two months? Rent or mortgage payments are often the biggest item in most families' budget, and the biggest worry when the paychecks stop arriving. Already, in some places, evictions are being put on hold for the duration of the emergency, showing the importance of keeping people in their homes. So why not guarantee this by announcing that the next two months will essentially be rent-free?

Renters won't have to pay rent. Owners (whether of their own home or rental properties) won't have to pay mortgages. Those who own their homes outright don't have mortgage payments to worry about in the first place, so won't be affected either way. The loss of rental income would be offset by the freeze on mortgage payments for landlords.

Of course, this would have to have an enormous buy-in from the banks. That pretty much goes without saying, because it is their bottom line that will take the hit. But the bailout bills already have provisions for industries hard-hit by the crisis, so why shouldn't banks take one for the team as well? After all, it would only be for two months. Payments would not be made on mortgages, and the banks should be forced not to charge any interest whatsoever for this period -- instead freezing the status quo where it is for two months and then starting it back up again from the point at which it was frozen.

Forcing such a "rent holiday" and "mortgage holiday" would certainly have an effect on Americans' personal economic situation. Knowing you won't have to make a monthly housing payment for two months frees that money up -- or relaxes the worries of those who have been thrown out of work (hopefully, temporarily). It'd be a lot easier to make ends meet with a "duration of the emergency" household budget without having to worry about the biggest monthly payment most people have to make.

Now, it can be argued that this would help a whole bunch of people who aren't exactly hurting right now. That is undoubtedly true, but it is also true of the "send everyone a $1,200 check" idea. Many people will get checks who are still receiving their paychecks anyway, but there has been no overriding push to limit the benefit to the unemployed (so far, at any rate -- the bill is still being haggled over as I write this). Broad-based stimulus measures always give benefits to those who don't really need them, but they still can be necessary anyway.

I'm going to end this as I began, by stating once again that I probably don't know what I'm talking about. I have no idea how practicable such an idea would be on a wide-scale basis. I have no idea what removing mortgage payments would do to the books of a large bank. There would be thousands of details that would have to be worked out in some way or another, and I'm not even aware of most of them. I fully admit all of that.

But this is a time for radical thinking, it seems to me, so proposing radical ideas to alleviate the crisis doesn't seem to be too out of line right now -- even if I don't know what I'm talking about. While getting a check for $1,200 in the mail is going to be a lifeline for millions of people, knowing that they have a free place to live for the next two months would also provide a level of security that would seem to be worthwhile. So I welcome intelligent criticism for my idea, but I do wonder if something like this could be worked out legislatively somehow. It doesn't seem any more radical than some of the other ideas I've heard proposed, and it would directly impact the lives of the vast majority of citizens out there in a very beneficial way. So it's worth discussing, at the very least.

-- Chris Weigant

 

Follow Chris on Twitter: @ChrisWeigant

 

90 Comments on “How About A Rent And Mortgage Holiday?”

  1. [1] 
    Don Harris wrote:

    You really should consider writing something about canceling lotteries for the time being. Many people go out daily to buy tickets going from store to store and back again buying lottery tickets. Many of these people are older citizens.

    Online gambling should also be stopped for the time being to make sure people stuck at home don't gamble away what ever governnment survival money they might get.

  2. [2] 
    MtnCaddy wrote:

    I've heard it said of our Senate that our bankers "own the place."

    So while, as a former B-School student, I see no immediately obvious reasons that your payment moratorium won't work, I just don't see the bankers being willing to take much of a haircut, patriotism be damned.

  3. [3] 
    Don Harris wrote:

    There is no reason your idea could not be a piece of the puzzle just as the one time check would be.

    In NJ the unemployment filings reached a new daily record and crashed the website.

    I think I heard a report that McDonalds was closing all their restaurants.

    The one time check that needs to go out now needs to be more as it will take a few months to get a regular system of monthly checks set up for the next year or so at least before there could be a recovery.

    At least 2000 dollars for a one time check or 1000 dollars each month for the next three months to give time to make something more long term when we may have a better idea of how long that might be.

  4. [4] 
    MtnCaddy wrote:

    [1]

    One comedian called the lotto "a tax on stupid people." But having acknowledged the truth in there I'm not sure that trying to impose your morality on others is useful. I guess you could suspend the state lotteries, but many (most?) online sports books are offshore. For example, I have an account in Nicaragua and there's nothing the US can do to shut these sites down.

  5. [5] 
    Don Harris wrote:

    I would have liked to give you a day off so you might at least consider a lottery article, but how could I possibly be expected to not mention "But this a time for radical thinking, it seems to me, so proposing radical ideas to alleviate the crisis doesn't seem to be too out of line right now...".

    You know what would inspire real action from Congress?

    Ralph Nader running a small donor only independent campaign to put pressure on Biden to run a small donor only campaign. This would let the politicians know we are not going to let them get away with exploiting this crisis they created.

    Listen pointed out in FTP comment thread how many citizens will not be able to make campaign contribuitons in this election because of economic uncertainty.

    The relief check should be accompanied by 200-500 dollars worth of political contribution vouchers for each eligible voter. It could consist of 25 dollar vouchers that could be sent to the candidates of the citizens choice either in 25 dollars to many candidates up to 200 dollars to any one candidate.

    Candidates could only take the vouchers if they ran small donor only campaigns (they could only take 200 dollars total in vouchers and cash combined from any one donor).

    Think of how this would get people used to making contributions which they may continue to do on their own in future elections and could even encourage many non-voters to vote because if they used their vouchers they would feel they have some skin in the game.

    Doesn't voter turnout help Dems?

    If you still won't consider/discuss One Demand or the Nader idea will you at least consider emergency political contribution vouchers?

  6. [6] 
    Don Harris wrote:

    It has nothing to do with imposing morality.

    They may not be able to shut down off shore sites but they may be able to stop money from going there easily.

    I mean the money going there easily, not that stopping it would be easy or 100% effective. But we should do as much as we can.

  7. [7] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    As someone who is in the position of renting with intent to purchase, a rent-free/mortgage-free holiday makes better sense than some of the things I hear coming out of government relief packages. It would certainly make the biggest impact for the majority of people in the shortest period of time.

    Are any pols talking about this or similar ideas?

    Stay home and take care!

  8. [8] 
    C. R. Stucki wrote:

    CW

    Would the landlords get to take a two-month vacation from the property taxes that fund the local schools, from the expense of fire insurance, liability insurance, etc, from the utility fees that fund the municipal garbage collection, street maintenance, snow plowing, etc.??

  9. [9] 
    John M from Ct. wrote:

    I've been thinking for some time now that a "debt holiday" would be a sensible move, not just for homeowners with mortgages, but for businesses with outstanding loans.

    You're the first public commentator I've see who has landed on more or less the same idea. And like you, I've felt that I'm just an amateur, with no idea of how a debt holiday (for the duration, more likely six months than two) would actually play out with the debt-holders. But thanks for putting it out there!

  10. [10] 
    Michale wrote:

    FPC

    Liz,

    And, by the way, Michale,

    }}}}}}}}Oh com'on... :D Yer that cynical every time you refuse to admit President Trump is doing a good job...{{{{{{{

    I'm not that person.

    Fine.. Give me an incident where you praised President Trump for a well-deserved... WELL DONE Mr President...

  11. [11] 
    Michale wrote:

    CW,

    The COVID-19 crisis is deepening by the day. America is fast approaching (if we haven't already gotten there today) the point where 10,000 new cases will be announced on a daily basis. And those numbers are now going to be suspect, from this point on, because officials are now saying they won't even test people they are all but certain have the coronavirus unless they are hospitalized with a major case -- which means thousands and thousands of sick people won't even get tested, and therefore will never show up on the official statistics. The problem is not only bad and getting worse, it is now so out of control that we're essentially abandoning hope that we'll even have accurate statistics to track its exponential growth.

    And those announcements are designed to use fear-mongering to scare the American people...

    Why not announce some GOOD news is that, for ever 20,000 people infected, over 19,994 are going to recover from the infection and be totally free of this disease..

    Because THE REAL news.. The FACTS... Don't allow Democrats to beat President Trump over the head with..

    And maybe Democrats should quit the obstruction train so these stimulation checks can get out to people, eh??

    I'm just sayin...

  12. [12] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    Just the other day, Michale, right here in these comments sections.

    I guess you missed it. Look it up if you want, pal.

  13. [13] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    I think I praised/agreed with Trump twice in the last week, in fact.

  14. [14] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    If you care to find where, I wouldn't advise using the words 'well-done' or 'well-deserved' (capitalized or not) in your search, though. Heh.

  15. [15] 
    Michale wrote:

    If you care to find where, I wouldn't advise using the words 'well-done' or 'well-deserved' (capitalized or not) in your search, though. Heh.

    Maybe you can save me the trouble and just point it out..

    I am sure ya relish at the chance to prove me wrong.. :D

  16. [16] 
    Michale wrote:

    After getting some of the most damaging press imaginable..

    Democrats cave..

    Expect a coronavirus stimulus agreement in Senate, Schumer says

    Sen. Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., told reporters early Tuesday that he expects Republicans and Democrats in the Senate to come together and reach an agreement on the $2 trillion coronavirus stimulus package that set off a fierce debate on the Senate floor and allegations from both sides that the other was politicizing the emergency.

    Despite the logjam, Schumer, the Senate minority leader, and Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin told reporters that there was progress made in late-night negotiations. Schumer said he expects a vote sometime on Tuesday.

    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/schumer-says-expect-coronavirus-stimulus-agreement-in-senate

    Once again, Democrats let their TRUMP/America hate rule and get bitch-slapped down for their trouble...

  17. [17] 
    Michale wrote:

    Biden: Trump's 'failure of planning and preparation' worsened coronavirus crisis

    Yea, Joe??

    And what failures did you and Odumbo make that caused the deaths of 12,269 Americans in 2009???

  18. [18] 
    Michale wrote:

    Former Vice President Joe Biden on Monday accused President Trump of dithering in the early days of the coronavirus, saying that a “failure of planning and preparation” by the White House has worsened the health and economic crises the nation faces.

    Speaking from a makeshift studio at his home in Delaware, Biden made his first public remarks about the coronavirus in nearly a week, addressing concerns from some on the left that he has been ceding the spotlight to Trump.

    The former vice president accused the Trump administration of ignoring early warning signs about the pandemic and of downplaying the disease at critical points when the virus was primarily concentrated in China.

    “For too long, the warning signs were ignored,” Biden said. “For too long, the administration said the threats were under control, contained, or like the flu. The president said no one saw this coming. That’s just not accurate. Our intelligence officials were warning about the coronavirus threat in January. Just based on public information I had, I warned the threat was getting worse way back
    https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/489014-biden-trumps-failure-of-planning-and-preparation-worsened-coronavirus

    There were no warning signs ignored..

    ALL of President Trump's initial actions was to promote a calm and measured response to the unfolding emergency without inducing mind-numbing panic..

    Democrat's initial actions??

    "DON'T BE CALM!!! DON'T BE CALM!!!! PANIC!!!!"

    Future history will be very VERY kind to President Trump..

    And very VERY critical to Dumbocrats...

  19. [19] 
    Michale wrote:

    So....

    DEMOCRATS plan to fund comprehensive ELECTION RESULTS studies..

    http://sjfm.us/pics/DanCrenshaw.jpg

    Get that!??

    Democrats don't care if Americans die by the truckload..

    THEY are still consumed by altering the results of a fair, free, legal, democratic and Constitutional election....

    Do this country a favor.. Do what's right a favor..

    Don't vote Democrat...

  20. [20] 
    Michale wrote:

    CW,

    How About A Rent And Mortgage Holiday?

    We can't even get Democrats to agree to a desperately needed aid package..

    You think they will actually consider MORE help for Americans???

  21. [21] 
    Don Harris wrote:

    "I think I praised/agreed with Trump twice in the last week, in fact."

    Now if you would not praise/agree with Biden or avoid addressing when he is wrong.

    And when Biden says "This is America. There is not one single thing we can't do if we do it together." he should be called out when he does not live up to what he says.

    Why can't Biden do the one single thing of running a small donor only campaign in 2020 to show citizens that he is willing to do what it takes to earn the votes of citizens that want small donor only candidates in order to beat Trump?

  22. [22] 
    Don Harris wrote:

    Why are people talking about stimulus packages?

    There is nothing to stimulate.

    Stimulus works by giving people more money to spend. They spend it going to all the places and buying things that are no longer availble for them to go to spend the money or buy when they need survival money.

    So the places that would hire more people because of the stimulus will not be hiring more people because of the stimulus.

    It's a survival package.

    Do not let them get away with calling it anything else. They need to know we are not letting them off the hook for us needing a survival package instead of stimulus.

    In fact, it should always be not just called a survival package, it should be called a SURVIVAL PACKAGE.

  23. [23] 
    Don Harris wrote:

    So come on people. Let's all write our Congressmen and Senators and tell them they must officially title the relief legislation "The 2020 SURVIVAL Relief Act".

    This should be right up all your alleys as it mostly symbolic and doesn't require any of you to actually do anything of real consequence. :D

  24. [24] 
    Don Harris wrote:

    That was easy. Sherrill, Booker and Menendez.

    Easy as pie. :D

  25. [25] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    You're really something, Michale … you claim something about me that you know is not true and then tell me to prove you wrong.

    Take a look at the columns and responses from Thursday and Friday and stop playing stupid games with me.

  26. [26] 
    Michale wrote:

    Take a look at the columns and responses from Thursday and Friday and stop playing stupid games with me.

    Yes.. That's one way we could do it...

    OR...

    We could NOT play mind reading games and guessing games and you just tell where you said what you claimed...

    Seems to me the MUCH faster and easier way is that way...

  27. [27] 
    Michale wrote:

    Interesting facts about the current Democrat obstructionism..

    Turns out that DEMOCRATS and the GOP had an agreement ironed out.. Everyone agreed to it...

    Then several GOP Senators self-quarantined..

    Democrats realized that the GOP doesn't have a majority so they reneged on the agreement, wanting to put a bunch of socialist/progressive bennys into the deal..

    Democrats simply cannot be trusted...

  28. [28] 
    Don Harris wrote:

    Or maybe the Dems just realized they might be able to do what the Republicans had done with the "deal " when they had the majority.

    Republicans can't be trusted either.

    They both work for the same people.

    And the wrong people.

    If you don't condemn both you can't condemn either.

    Isn't that the rule?

    So let them know you are not falling for it by contacting your Congressmen and Senators and telling them to name the relief "The 2020 SURVIVAL Relief Act."

    If you don't you are playing the same partisan games you are complaining about.

  29. [29] 
    Don Harris wrote:

    And the same goes for playing other stupid games rather than having real discussion.

  30. [30] 
    Michale wrote:

    Or maybe the Dems just realized they might be able to do what the Republicans had done with the "deal " when they had the majority.

    Which deal was that???

  31. [31] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    Well, the novel coronavirus infections doubled in my neck of the woods yesterday going to 32 from 16. Until now, the number has gone up only very slowly, one at a time if any.

    And, all non-essential businesses are closed. Thankfully, the list of essentials is very long and incudes grocery stores, of course, and liquor and wine stores, thank God, and marijuana stores, Chris!

  32. [32] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    There you go, again!

  33. [33] 
    Don Harris wrote:

    The deal you called an agreement in comment 27.

    Do you need a link? :D

  34. [34] 
    Michale wrote:

    Well, the novel coronavirus infections doubled in my neck of the woods yesterday going to 32 from 16. Until now, the number has gone up only very slowly, one at a time if any.

    Counting infections are meaningless with a 98% survival rate..

    It's like counting bee stings or stubbed toes..

    And, all non-essential businesses are closed. Thankfully, the list of essentials is very long and incudes grocery stores, of course, and liquor and wine stores, thank God, and marijuana stores, Chris!

    And PET STORES..

    And ya'all wonder why it's impossible to take seriously.. :^/

  35. [35] 
    Michale wrote:

    Ahhhh

    Except the deal that the GOP wanted would benefit the country and the American people..

    The deal the Democrats now want would benefit the Democrat Party only..

  36. [36] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    So, Michale, what about the 1%-2%?

    Should we just do nothing and let them die?

  37. [37] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    You and I may be in that 1%-2%, after all ...

  38. [38] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    Did you read where I praised and agreed with president Trump, on two separate occasions? They're not that hard to find from the Thursday and Friday comments sections ...

  39. [39] 
    Michale wrote:

    So, Michale, what about the 1%-2%?

    Should we just do nothing and let them die?

    Is that 1% or 2% worth shutting down the country over??

    Especially when you consider that the 30% under obama wasn't even worth shutting down the country over..

    You see, that's the dilemma ya'all face...

    If ya'all weren't willing to shut down the country, hell, the WORLD when over 12,000 Americans died in 2009..

    Why is it ya'all are so fired up to do so when less than 500 Americans have doed???

    You and I may be in that 1%-2%, after all ...

    I am for sure..

    But even if so, I don't think it's worth shutting down the entire country over..

    Did you read where I praised and agreed with president Trump, on two separate occasions? They're not that hard to find from the Thursday and Friday comments sections ...

    Nope... I musta missed 'em..

  40. [40] 
    Michale wrote:

    I mean, com'on.. If marijuana stores and pet stores are still open..

    How serious can it be!?? :D

  41. [41] 
    Michale wrote:

    If Democrats are holding up the vitally needed "rescue plan" because they want to put in place their New Green Deal bullshit and put in place mechanisms to investigate the 2020 election they KNOW they are going to lose..

    How serious can it be???

  42. [42] 
    Michale wrote:

    Stocks soar as Congress works toward $1.6T stimulus package

    Trump supports reopening businesses sooner rather than later
    https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/us-stocks-march-24-2020

    So.. Since ya'all blamed President Trump for the down-turn...

    Ya'all, of course, give credit to President Trump for the upturn...

    RIGHT???

  43. [43] 
    SF Bear wrote:

    Michale, you need a new calculator, for the numbers you are using do not add up. You have asserted that the Recovery Rate for this virus is 96% several times in various posts. Assuming that is correct, that means that 800 out of every 20,000 infected will NOT recover, i.e. die. In #11 above you calculated that to be only 6 dead, if that were true it would represent a recovery rate of 99.9997% which is absurd. To understand how this applies to the general population we must know the Infection Rate or what percentage of the general population will get sick. Because of imperfect data (Thanks to Trump's bungling) no one knows exactly what that rate is but the best estimates (from the CDC and the NIH) are around 70%. So out of 20,000 people approximately 14,000 will get sick and of those 14,000 sick people 13,440 will get well and 560 will die. Using these percentages when applied to the whole country (330 million) some 270 million will get sick and of those some 9 million will die. From what I have read the death rate is actually closer to 2% rather than the 4% you insist on using but even so that means 4.5 million Americans could die from this disease and the 12,000 dead from the Swine Flu pall in comparison. There is no doubt this is the worst disease we have seen in generations and the ridiculous attempt by your Dear Leader to minimize it constitute Presidential Malpractice.

  44. [44] 
    Michale wrote:

    From what I have read the death rate is actually closer to 2% rather than the 4% you insist on using but even so that means 4.5 million Americans could die from this disease and the 12,000 dead from the Swine Flu pall in comparison.

    OK... So.. As I said.. You nit pick the numbers...

    So be it..

    So, if you get your wish and 4.5 million die from covid 19...

    THEN you'll be able to beat President Trump over the head..

    So, howz about you SHUT UP until that happens???

    But if you DO insist on yapping yer gums (fingers) maybe you can explain why you are so hysterical about less than 500 Americans dying, yet you were COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY silent when over 12,000 Americans died under Odumbo..

    Speak...

  45. [45] 
    Michale wrote:

    Or, if you don't want to talk about your blatant hypocrisy...

    Maybe you can explain why Dumbocrats are holding up "vital" need to American people over this "catastrophic" emergency because they can't get New Green Deal bennies or investigative tools to investigate their losses in the 2020 election???

    Speak.....

  46. [46] 
    Michale wrote:

    constitute Presidential Malpractice.

    And yet, Ilhan Omar has praised President Trump's actions..

    How can that be???

    Speak....

  47. [47] 
    Michale wrote:

    But if you DO insist on yapping yer gums (fingers) maybe you can explain why you are so hysterical about less than 500 Americans dying, yet you were COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY silent when over 12,000 Americans died under Odumbo..

    Because, until you can explain this complete and utter base incongruity, **ANYTHING** you say comes from a place of hate and bigotry..

    NOT of fact and logic..

    It really is THAT simple..

  48. [48] 
    Michale wrote:

    Pelosi’s $2.5 Trillion Virus Bill Delays Mortgage, Car Payments
    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/pelosi-2-5-trillion-virus-005743928.html?soc_src=community&soc_trk=fb

    Thanx alot, Pelosi and the Dumbocrats! :eyeroll:

  49. [49] 
    Michale wrote:

    Leave it to Dumbocrats..

    Trump on House Dems' coronavirus relief bill: 'No way I’m signing that deal' with 'Green New Deal stuff'
    https://www.foxnews.com/media/trump-coronavirus-relief-bill-green-new-deal

    We have something that actually threatens the survival of the human race and Democrats want to play politics and push their New Green Deal bullshit instead of actually helping Americans..

    The choice really IS clear come Nov...

    Democrats have GOT to go...

  50. [50] 
    Michale wrote:

    “There is no option to just let everyone go back out and go back to normal if a pandemic rages across the country and kills 50% of the population.”
    -MSNBC Chris Hayes

    Pure unadulterated HYSTERICAL fear-mongering..

    I give you.... The Dumbocrat Party :eyeroll:

    Thank the gods, we have LEVEL HEADED and RESPONSIBLE leadership in President Trump...

  51. [51] 
    Michale wrote:

    And STILL no one can explain to me...

    If President Trump is a racist, WHY we have a black American as Surgeon General???

    So, I can only assume ya'all are full of shit and have NO FACTS to proves the claim that President Trump is a racist..

  52. [52] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    Michale,

    There is a lot of disinformation being let loose here by you.

    Did you know that the Obama administration declared a public health emergency just 10 days after the first identified case of H1N1 infection in the US?

    Now, if the Trump administration had acted with half that sense of urgency your country would be in much better shape today.

  53. [53] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    Why do you keep doing this!!??

  54. [54] 
    Michale wrote:

    Why do you keep doing this!!??

    Doing what??

    Point out facts??

    Ridicule the utter ridiculousness of the Democrat Party's position on SO MANY different things??

    Need ya to be more specific..

  55. [55] 
    Michale wrote:

    For example.. We'll start with an easy one...

    WHY do so many here claim President Trump is a racist when there are absolutely NO FACTS to prove this???

  56. [56] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    Doing what??

    Posting at the exact same time as me, silly. :)

  57. [57] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    That's probably why you miss my comments.

  58. [58] 
    SF Bear wrote:

    Plato felt that argument was the best way to arrive at the truth of the matter. But by argument he meant where reasons were presented pro and con and logic determined the truth. From that day to this we have identified all the logical fallacies that distort the truth. Michale you seem to think this is some sort of contest that you can win, not a argument in the classical sense to arrive at the truth. Unfortunately, if this were an actual debate you would be disqualified for engaging in the most egregious logical fallacies imaginable. Chief among these is the ad hominem attack. When confronted with an inability to put forth a countervailing reason you resort to name calling and invective. I have never called you a name, or been anything but courteous toward you, so obviously you resorting to personal attacks on me are because you have no actual reasons to counter what I say. Your other go to sophistry is to change the subject to something that may or may not have happened in the past. Today this is called whataboutism and by any name it is irrelevant to the question at hand. We are discussing the wisdom of this policy to solve this problem and what previous presidents did or did not do has no bearing at all on the efficacy of the policies pursued by this president to deal with this crisis. Finally, desperate to say something in defense of the indefensible you confuse and conflate the arithmetic. I do not believe you are actually this obtuse, but rather, this is done in bad faith. You are unwilling or unable to set aside your maniacal obsession with "winning" to honestly seek the truth using reason and logic and thus further engagement with you is pointless. As another commenter put it succinctly "Do Not Feed the Troll"

  59. [59] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    SF Bear,

    Do you know how I can tell that you use the preview button?

    You've got no paragraphs. Here, you have to actually put those in yourself.

    It makes it much easier to read that way and your bottom line doesn't get lost in the shuffle.

  60. [60] 
    jay wrote:

    I have nothing but respect for a man that can admit when he doesn't know what he's talking about... your country could use a lot more of that.

  61. [61] 
    Don Harris wrote:

    Jay-
    Some people here (not limited to Michale) just have a funny way of doing that. :D

  62. [62] 
    Don Harris wrote:

    You just have to read between the lies.

  63. [63] 
    Don Harris wrote:

    Ooops.... between the lines. :D

  64. [64] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    We know what you meant. :)

  65. [65] 
    Michale wrote:

    SF,

    Plato felt that argument was the best way to arrive at the truth of the matter.

    And THAT is your exact problem..

    Yer all about "truth"...

    And, as we know, "truth" is subjective and based on the BELIEFS of those who speak or hear the "truth"...

    For example.. It's YOUR "truth" that President Trump is a racist..

    I, on the other hand, am only interested in FACTS...

    In the example, you have *NO* facts that prove your "truth"...

    Conversely, I have FACTS that PROVE your "truth" is complete and utter bullshit..

    And true form..

    As another commenter put it succinctly "Do Not Feed the Troll"

    Once yer bullshit "truth" is exposed, you resort to immature and childish name-calling...

    But even in your immaturity, you beg a simple question..

    Why can't you follow your own advice???

    Apparently, your "truth" can't hang against MY facts..

    "Your kung fu is not strong.."
    -Rat, THE CORE

  66. [66] 
    Michale wrote:

    @Jay,

    I have nothing but respect for a man that can admit when he doesn't know what he's talking about... your country could use a lot more of that.

    Give SF Bear a break..

    He's a brain-washed Party slave....

    He knows not what he talks about....

  67. [67] 
    Don Harris wrote:

    Liz-
    It makes it easier to read an explanation of why Biden should not have to do the one single thing he can do to show he wants to work together with citizens by committing to a small donor only campaign if you post it here- preview or not.

  68. [68] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    Why don't you give him a call?

  69. [69] 
    Don Harris wrote:

    Plato: That's not an argument. You're just contradicting me.

    Socrates: No I'm not.

  70. [70] 
    Don Harris wrote:

    Liz-
    So you told him but you won't tell me? :D

  71. [71] 
    Don Harris wrote:

    Liz-
    Since I can't get an answer from you, CW or pretty much anyone here, I probably wouldn't get one from Biden either.

    CW could start the process of getting Biden to answer by writing about the Nader campaign idea.

    As you feel Biden should provide the answer I am looking for, I assume that you would believe that CW should help get the process started.

    Isn't that what media is supposed to do- find out what citizens want the politicians to address and inform other citizens about problems and possible solutions that have been brought to light to provide the checks and balances the fourth estate is suppposed to provide to get politicians to address the concerns of citizens?

  72. [72] 
    SF Bear wrote:

    So is this how you add paragraphs?

    If so what is the point of the review button?

    Is there a way to underline or add italics?

  73. [73] 
    Michale wrote:

    Is there a way to underline or add italics?

    Not sure about underline..

    But italics is LESS THAN Bracket I GREATER THAN Bracket Italics LESS THAN Bracket SLASH (/) I GREATER THAN Bracket..

    For BOLD just replace 'I' with 'B'

  74. [74] 
    Michale wrote:

    If so what is the point of the review button?

    Gives the illusion we actually have a PREVIEW.. :D

    Actually, to be fair, the PREVIEW allows us to easily see an unclosed attribute which would result in the rest of the text after initial attribute to retain it's form..

    Clear as mud, eh?? :D

  75. [75] 
    Michale wrote:

    As to the rest.. More power to ya for yer "truth"...

    I'll stick with FACTS...

    Unambiguous and utterly objective...

    Just the way I like it..

  76. [76] 
    Kick wrote:

    EM
    59

    You've got no paragraphs. Here, you have to actually put those in yourself.

    It makes it much easier to read that way and your bottom line doesn't get lost in the shuffle.

    FUN FACT: Typing in single sentences isn't a paragraph either. ;)

  77. [77] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    Well, it does depend upon the sentences, of course.

  78. [78] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    The purpose of the preview button is purely to proofread, ensuring that what you post is actually what you mean.

  79. [79] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    Don,

    I'm not sure what the Nader campaign idea is all about but, it scares me.

  80. [80] 
    Don Harris wrote:

    So the preview button is like the two party system-
    an illusion designed to make people think we have a choice and democracy.

    And the other button tells the rest of the tale.

    What a great choice. You can buy into the illusion or submit. :D

  81. [81] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    Good God!

  82. [82] 
    Don Harris wrote:

    Liz-
    That's how you know it's working.

    It is supposed to scare the sh...poop out of Biden so he will do what he should do just because it's the right thing to do.

  83. [83] 
    Don Harris wrote:

    Liz (81)-
    I know it seems that way, but just call me Don. :D
    (but I'm glad you thought it was good.)

  84. [84] 
    Don Harris wrote:

    ...but ya doesn't have to call me Johnson.

  85. [85] 
    Don Harris wrote:

    If you don't want to discuss that, how about the idea I came up with to address the concern of Listen that people would not have money for political contributions due to the economic situation?

    Wouldn't it be good to include 200-500 dollars worth of vouchers and have the election funding controlled by ordinary citizens?

    Isn't participation in our political process a necessity?

    It is not only second to Marijuana stores- it's actually a CLOSE second! :D

  86. [86] 
    Don Harris wrote:

    The subliminal messaging of the submit button needs to be addressed.

    Please make it "enter comment" or "post comment". :D

  87. [87] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    You're starting to get me down.

    And, "whenever I'm feelin' down there's only one thing pullin' me through, a Twelve bar shuffle and a mega watt stereo".

    Which means only one thing … PRiSM.

    Besides, the next column should be up soon!

  88. [88] 
    Don Harris wrote:

    "I'm down, I'm really down.
    I'm down, down on the ground.
    I'm down, I'm really down.
    How can you laugh when you know I'm down?
    How can you laugh when you know I'm down?"
    -I'm Down
    Beatles B-side

  89. [89] 
    ListenWhenYouHear wrote:

    Don,

    Listen pointed out in FTP comment thread how many citizens will not be able to make campaign contribuitons in this election because of economic uncertainty.

    The relief check should be accompanied by 200-500 dollars worth of political contribution vouchers for each eligible voter. It could consist of 25 dollar vouchers that could be sent to the candidates of the citizens choice either in 25 dollars to many candidates up to 200 dollars to any one candidate.

    Right, because what is REALLY important right now is FUNDING POLITICAL CAMPAIGNS! Jesus Christ, DH, I know you are obsessed with your One Demand delusion, but if you think THIS would work, you truly aren’t playing with a full deck!

    Candidates could only take the vouchers if they ran small donor only campaigns (they could only take 200 dollars total in vouchers and cash combined from any one donor).

    Great idea! You’ve made those vouchers completely worthless...because there are NO small donor only campaigns being run, so those vouchers aren’t worth the paper they are printed on.

    This is the problem with trying to discuss One Demand with you — you jump and take positions that would require you to have accomplished massive changes in order to take, but you never bother to say how you were able to bring about such change! For instance, you claimed that Big Money politicians would never cap donations at the $200 limit you want to self impose to be part of One Demand, yet now you have them willing to stipulate that these campaign vouchers can only go to small donor campaigns??? Why would they refuse to change the rules so that it effects everyone equally, but then agree to change the rules so that it only hurts them?

    Think of how this would get people used to making contributions which they may continue to do on their own in future elections and could even encourage many non-voters to vote because if they used their vouchers they would feel they have some skin in the game.

    What skin? They lose absolutely NOTHING if they do not participate.

    And one last thought... candidates that might choose to become “small donor only” candidates now could have already been bought by Big Money donations...so again, One Demand would fail to do any real change but might get you a few groupies to fawn over you for being such a visionary!

  90. [90] 
    Chris Weigant wrote:

    C. R. Stucki [8] -

    See, that's the kind of objections I need to hear!

    In CA, property taxes are (so far) not on hold. This is important, because one of the two semi-annual payments is looming. But that may change soon...

    John M from CT [9] -

    I also considered proposing a "credit card payment holiday" but thought to keep it down to one radical idea per column...

    Michale [11] -

    What I read from your comment:

    "President Trump screwed that pooch so brilliantly that it will become the absolute gold standard of pooch-screwing, for generations to come. Trump could have protected America, but instead he chose to screw the pooch in absolute epic fashion! The facts prove that nobody alive could have screwed that pooch worse! A new record! All praise our Dear Leader!!!"

    [16] -

    Actually, it was Trump and Mnuchin who got rolled. They've had to add all kinds of Dem language to the bill, so that Mnuchin can't just dole out that half-trillion bucks to Trump-supporting corporations. So: Schumer 1, Mnuchin 0.

    Them's the facts, Jack.

    [27] -

    And who's the one who is preventing remote voting? Mitch McConnell. So those 5 GOP senators who can't now vote are on him, not anyone else.

    Sorry, but them's the facts.

    LizM [31] -

    Two things:

    The rate of doubling is the metric to watch. That's what is important about judging the spread of the virus.

    As for weed, from an anecdotal report, San Francisco closed down all the weed stores for one day, and the outcry was so great they reopened them the next day and proclaimed they were "essential services."

    Heh.

    Michale [34] -

    Counting infections are meaningless with a 98% survival rate..

    It's like counting bee stings or stubbed toes..

    Weren't you telling us a few days ago that Trump was totally right in "the number will soon be down to zero"?

    That (official) number is above 55,000 now.

    Oh, sorry, I should have said:

    What I read from your comment:

    "President Trump screwed that pooch so brilliantly that it will become the absolute gold standard of pooch-screwing, for generations to come. Trump could have protected America, but instead he chose to screw the pooch in absolute epic fashion! The facts prove that nobody alive could have screwed that pooch worse! A new record! All praise our Dear Leader!!!"

    Michale [39] -

    When, during Obama's term, did the stock market react to a pandemic? When did it drop 1/3 of its value in a month?

    Are institutional investors suddenly radical lefties, or do they see the difference between a president who is in charge and taking control of the situation and a buffoon who doesn't understand pretty much anything?

    The market has spoken. It never spoke in such a way for Obama. THAT is the difference, pal. You simply cannot paint the investors as some sort of lefty cabal -- the very idea is downright laughable. They showed their confidence in Obama to keep things under control, and they have showed their total lack of confidence in Trump.

    That's the facts, Jack.

    [42] -

    Upturn? Really? Stocks are now only down 33% from their peak rather than 38%? That's an "upturn" worth celebrating?

    Wow.

    [44] -

    What I read from your comment:

    "President Trump screwed that pooch so brilliantly that it will become the absolute gold standard of pooch-screwing, for generations to come. Trump could have protected America, but instead he chose to screw the pooch in absolute epic fashion! The facts prove that nobody alive could have screwed that pooch worse! A new record! All praise our Dear Leader!!!"

    LizM [52] -

    Amen!

    SFBear [58] -

    Double-amen!

    jay [60] -

    I'm going to assume that was meant for me. In that case, thank you for the kind words!

    I always try to admit my own limitations, so I don't become some sort of pompous ass of a commentator...

    Michale [65] -

    What I read from your comment:

    "President Trump screwed that pooch so brilliantly that it will become the absolute gold standard of pooch-screwing, for generations to come. Trump could have protected America, but instead he chose to screw the pooch in absolute epic fashion! The facts prove that nobody alive could have screwed that pooch worse! A new record! All praise our Dear Leader!!!"

    Don Harris [69] -

    I was actually saving this to post to you, directly. But you've given me an opportunity to post it in response, so you're off the hook:

    http://montypython.50webs.com/scripts/Series_3/27.htm

    SF Bear [72] -

    Sorry, the "Preview Comment" button is essentially worthless. My bad... mea culpa.

    Michale [73] -

    Angle brackets (the keys over the comma and period on a standard keyboard) surround the tags for bold and italics. Bold is "b" and italics are "i". Just for anyone who hasn't caught on... at least that works, here at CW.com...

    Don Harris [80] -

    Pbbbbtthhhhtt.

    {sound of Bronx cheer...]

    OK, that's it for me now... going to go to bed now...

    -CW

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