ChrisWeigant.com

Nielsen Out, As Trump Doubles Down (Yet Again) On Xenophobia

[ Posted Monday, April 8th, 2019 – 17:12 UTC ]

Political scapegoating of immigrants is certainly nothing new in American politics. Even a cursory look at American history shows this to be true, from the Alien and Sedition Acts, passed in the 1790s, to the anti-Catholic-immigrant "Know Nothing" Party of the 1850s, to the Chinese Exclusion Act of the 1880s, to the internment of Japanese-Americans during World War II, to the scapegoating of Mexican laborers in the 1950s (Operation Wetback). Being anti-immigrant is about as American as apple pie, as horrifying as that might sound to those who are more comfortable sweeping such excesses under the historical rug. Donald Trump, in other words, did not singlehandedly create xenophobia, instead he merely revived a longstanding tradition of using the issue successfully as a political bludgeon.

Xenophobia is central to Trump's political persona. It is impossible to separate the man from the issue, in fact. From his first political speech announcing his bid for the presidency ("they're rapists...") right up to today's news of Kirstjen Nielsen's ouster as Secretary of Homeland Security, Trump and xenophobia are intractably interlinked. It's who he is, and nobody should be surprised by any of it by now.

Nielsen has been trying her best to do what she could to stoke Trump's xenophobic rage, but in the end simply could not assuage his worst impulses, so she had to go. She resolutely sat in front of Congress and declared that she somehow couldn't remember whether Trump had used the phrase "shithole countries" (in a meeting she had attended), and expressed her faux surprise at learning that Norway had a mostly-white population. History will not be kind to Nielsen, in other words -- she will not be remembered as a reluctant Trump sycophant, or a Trump aide who stayed around in an attempt to limit the damage Trump could do. She was always willing to defend the worst of Trump's policies even when it was obvious she was lying through her teeth (as when she insisted that the Trump administration had no child-separation policy whatsoever). As with many others before her who got thrown under the Trump bus, Nielsen will not emerge with her reputation intact. She'll forever be remembered for her tenure at the head of Homeland Security.

The real question everyone in Washington is asking is why Nielsen had to go right now. Speculation abounds, and perhaps in the coming days a clearer picture will emerge as to why her ouster was deemed necessary. So far, the following explanations have been suggested:

The border apprehension numbers have spiked recently, and Trump follows these numbers closely. He is always hunting for someone to blame for anything that doesn't go his way, so Nielsen paid the price.

Stephen Miller is gaining more and more power and is now the de facto head of Trump's immigration policy. Nielsen's ouster was merely part of a broad sweep of getting rid of officials in charge of executing this policy, because Miller (like Trump) is always quick to blame others for the failure of his policy ideas to immediately fix any perceived problems.

Trump was peeved that he couldn't just shut the entire U.S.-Mexican border down last week, and decided to blame Nielsen for being talked out of such a rash idea.

Trump is focused on his own re-election prospects, and wants a "tougher" immigration policy to be the centerpiece of his 2020 campaign. Nielsen was seen as too timid to execute such a muscular policy, so she had to go.

Trump wants to ramp up the child-separation policy once again, because he truly believes it is a political winner for him. Nielsen may have balked at doing so, which led to her immediate dismissal.

Any or all of these could have played a part in Trump's decision, of course. They're all pretty plausible, and some are already being backed up by reports in the media. Over the next week or so, perhaps one of these storylines will emerge as "the real reason" Nielsen had to go, or perhaps it was a combination of more than one of them.

Donald Trump is convinced that appearing as strong as possible on border security and demonizing immigrants who are not lily-white is the ticket to his re-election. That much seems certain, at any rate. He is convinced that doubling (or tripling, or quadrupling) down on the issue will be a political winner for him, all evidence to the contrary. No matter who winds up running all the departments involved in border security and immigration enforcement, they will have to keep up with Trump's ever-increasing xenophobia or be shown the same door that Nielsen just was.

How this all plays out is still uncertain. Will Trump soon announce a return to the child-separation policy in a major way? Will he ignore the advice of his saner advisors and shut the Mexican border down in a fit of pique? Will he unleash his border guards to use increasingly-harsh methods to turn away asylum seekers? Will he just go whole hog and completely militarize the entire border? At this point, anything seems possible, really.

Politically, though, this all should be seen as good news for Democrats. No matter what Trump thinks, the American public is nowhere near as xenophobic as he'd like to believe. This was proven in the midterm elections, when Trump forced the Republican Party to run a campaign centered almost solely on stoking fears of immigrant hordes invading America. This didn't work out too well for them, and it likely won't work out too well for Trump in 2020 either. Xenophobia may have a long and storied history in American politics, but most of the country has evolved considerably since the days of the Know Nothings.

-- Chris Weigant

 

Follow Chris on Twitter: @ChrisWeigant

 

83 Comments on “Nielsen Out, As Trump Doubles Down (Yet Again) On Xenophobia”

  1. [1] 
    neilm wrote:

    Looks like Steven Miller is running the show now. I feel really sorry for the pain that will be inflicted on people who are already in a lot of pain. The silver lining is that immigration and the philosophy of asylum will become more important to Americans who will, if I'm any judge of Americans, open their hearts to the horror show in Central America and on our border.

    The other silver lining is that this increases the chance that the Steven Millers of this country will become pariahs and their nasty philosophy with it.

    The last silver lining is that beating up on the downtrodden is likely to hurt Trump in 2020 with most Americans. We like to think of ourselves as the good guys, not the jack-booted thugs.

  2. [2] 
    nypoet22 wrote:

    Being anti-immigrant is about as American as apple pie

    it most certainly is not as american as apple pie! on behalf of apple pie everywhere i take exception to such buttercream smearing, mr. cake frosting weigant! apple pie will always be more american than the scapegoating of immigrants. so when will you face reality and see the big cake agenda for what it is?

    JL

  3. [3] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    Who said that!?

  4. [4] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    Well, I guess it's true enough. :(

  5. [5] 
    C. R. Stucki wrote:

    I live a long arrowshot from an Indian reservation, and I've definitely noticed a lot of "political scapegoating and xenophobia" on the part of my reservation neighbors.

    For some reason I don't understand, they seem unreasonably fearful that so many of those damn palefaces pouring into the country might take over all their land, introduce white-man's diseases, kill off all their buffalo, etc.

    I don't understand it, I guess they're just paranoid!

  6. [6] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    CRS,

    I never would have figured you as a fellow First Nations advocate.

    I wish you point was more widely made in your country.

  7. [7] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    your point, that is

  8. [8] 
    Elizabeth Miller wrote:

    Did I ever mention anything about a simple edit function around here? NO? I was sure I did … once or twice ...

  9. [9] 
    Michale wrote:

    Political scapegoating of immigrants is certainly nothing new in American politics.

    And with that one sentence, that tells me all I need to know about the entire commentary..

    The issue is not immigrants..

    The issue is ILLEGAL immigrants..

    Until the Left can actually talk about the real issue, they will always lose..

  10. [10] 
    Michale wrote:

    JL,

    Being anti-immigrant is about as American as apple pie

    While that might have been true in the past, there are simply ZERO FACTS to support the claim that it is true in the here and now..

    With Candidate and then President Trump the issue is and always has been ILLEGAL immigrants..

    And what's really funny is that the people ya'all are talking about, the LEGAL immigrants are fully and completely in President Trump's corner regarding ILLEGAL immigrants..

    How can Americans hope to solve the problem when, solely for POLITICAL and PARTY LOYALTY reasons, the Left side of the country can't even recognize the real problem??

  11. [11] 
    Michale wrote:

    Looks like Steven Miller is running the show now. I feel really sorry for the pain that will be inflicted on people who are already in a lot of pain.

    There is a very easy and effective way for people to avoid the additional pain??

    Obey the law...

    See how easy that is!??

    The last silver lining is that beating up on the downtrodden is likely to hurt Trump in 2020 with most Americans. We like to think of ourselves as the good guys, not the jack-booted thugs.

    Ahhh yes.. Play the "victim" card..

    Tell me, Neil..

    How well did that work for the Democrats in 2016?? :D

  12. [12] 
    Michale wrote:

    House Intelligence chair throws cold water on Cohen's bid for help delaying prison term
    https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/08/politics/adam-schiff-michael-cohen/index.html

    Heh.. Democrats wring Cohen dry and then, when he can't deliver impeachment, Dims toss him out like yesterday's garbage...

    So typically Democrat and couldn't happen to a more deserving guy...

  13. [13] 
    TheStig wrote:

    Xenophobia is the signature issue that unites Trump's base. He feels no incentive to solve the problem since that would nullify his best issue...and disrupt the economy. Far better to just pimp it to his base with Tweets and Photo ops. That's doable, and he figures it's the best option to keep him in office, out of court, avoid financial ruin and, yes, out of jail. It's not a complicated strategy and it be grasped by someone who seems, at best, befuddled and at worst, on the cusp of dementia.

  14. [14] 
    Michale wrote:

    Xenophobia is the signature issue that unites Trump's base.

    Not factually accurate...

    It's not a complicated strategy and it be grasped by someone who seems, at best, befuddled and at worst, on the cusp of dementia.

    This is exactly why we have President Trump..

    Because Democrats ALWAYS underestimated Trump and wrote him off as a fool or incompetent..

    Funny though, that when Trump had a -D after his name, Democrats LOVED him...

  15. [15] 
    John M wrote:

    [9] Michale

    "The issue is not immigrants..

    The issue is ILLEGAL immigrants.."

    [10] Michale

    'While that might have been true in the past, there are simply ZERO FACTS to support the claim that it is true in the here and now..

    With Candidate and then President Trump the issue is and always has been ILLEGAL immigrants..

    And what's really funny is that the people ya'all are talking about, the LEGAL immigrants are fully and completely in President Trump's corner regarding ILLEGAL immigrants.."

    AGAIN, NOT TRUE. Here are some of the measures that the Trump administration has implemented just since 2017:

    They are measures that affect and cut LEGAL immigration

    1) Reduced refugee admissions to the lowest level since the resettlement program was created in 1980.

    2) Ended the designation of Temporary Protected Status for nationals of Haiti, Nicaragua and Sudan, and signaled that Hondurans and possibly Salvadorans may also lose their work authorization and protection from removal in 2018.

    3) In 2018, the administration reduced the number to 45,000 but the administration is not even on track to resettle that number - it will resettle perhaps 20,000 this year - thus undermining the progress of a vital humanitarian program. In September 2018, the administration indicated that it would reduce the cap further to just 30,000 for 2019 – the lowest since the program’s creation in 1980.

    4) What used to be straightforward application processes – like applying for a green card (permanent residency) and citizenship - have been dramatically slowed down and halted. The backlog of pending green card applications had increased by more than 35 percent by the end of 2017. A new mandated in-person interview for all applicants for employment-based immigration applications has increased processing time and slowed applications to a crawl. These slowdowns leave thousands of people seeking to naturalize as citizens or become lawful residents vulnerable and in a state of limbo. A new U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Service (USCIS) policy allows officers to outright deny any visa or green card application that is missing evidence or contains an error without giving applicants a chance to fix it. This could mean people with valid visas who are trying to renew could be placed in deportation proceedings.
    The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) proposed a regulation to reject petitions for green cards from immigrants who use basic public benefits (like food stamps and Medicaid) by deeming them more likely to become a public charge - dependent on the government at any point in their lives. Based on this revised rule, the number of visas denied on “public charge grounds" has increased more than 300 percent in the past year.

    5) A new denaturalization task force has begun working to strip citizenship from naturalized American citizens. While there are few legal grounds for denaturalization, the administration has already referred 100 cases to the Justice Department for prosecution. The creation of the task force is causing a sense of insecurity and uncertainty among naturalized citizens and permanent residents.

    6) The administration is increasingly denying and delaying more foreign-skilled worker requests. An increased issuing of “requests for evidence” to challenge the basis of original petitions can add on several months to the application process for individuals. The administration has signaled that it intends to end work authorization for spouses of H-1B visa holders.

    7) The Trump administration is closing all 21 overseas USCIS field offices across 20 countries before the end of the year, which greatly impacts immigration-related matters, such as international adoptions and family reunifications.

    [14] Michale

    "Xenophobia is the signature issue that unites Trump's base.

    Not factually accurate..."

    Actually it IS FACTUALLY ACCURATE.

    Just some of the statements from Laura Ingraham on FOX News:

    The host has echoed the rhetoric of the white supremacists who marched in Charlottesville, you know, the ones who chanted, "You will not replace us," "Jews will not replace us," and "Immigrants will not replace us."

    Ingraham herself said: (Direct quote)

    "Will travesties such as birthright citizenship finally be ended?" "Of this, my friends, you can be sure: Your views on immigration will have zero impact and zero influence on a House dominated by Democrats who want to replace you, the American voters, with newly amnestied citizens and an ever-increasing number of chain migrants."

    If that's NOT xenophobia from Trump's base, what is????

  16. [16] 
    Michale wrote:

    AGAIN, NOT TRUE. Here are some of the measures that the Trump administration has implemented just since 2017:

    ONLY because ILLEGAL immigrants were gaming the system..

    There is ALSO the fact that President Trump has increased allowed immigration for immigrants with needed and special skills..

    The simple fact is, President Trump has always been against ILLEGAL immigrants..

    As to your claim that ONE person on Fox News may be xenophobic that means ALL on the right are xenophobic..

    That's the same thing as saying that ALL Democrats want to gun down Republicans just because ONE scumbag Democrat did it..

    Are you SURE you want to go with that argument??

    The simple fact is, President Trump and those on the right are against ILLEGAL immigrants.

    But you and your fellow Democrats can't argue against that so you try and move the goalposts and make the discussion about legal immigrants.

    And it ALWAYS fails..

  17. [17] 
    Michale wrote:

    Anyone wanna lay any bets on the Israeli elections??

    Daniel B. Shapiro 2019 Israeli elections are a referendum on Benjamin Netanyahu. Which vision of Bibi will prevail?
    This is a race between two competing perspectives: Those who have Bibi fatigue and those who see Netanyahu as indispensable to the nation.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/2019-israeli-elections-are-referendum-benjamin-netanyahu-which-vision-bibi-ncna992146

    If Israelis have any sense, they would stick with a known and proven leader...

  18. [18] 
    Paula wrote:

    CW: Yep.

    [1] neilm: Yep.

    [2] nypoet: good one!

    [13] TS: Yep.

    Steven Miller is the Rasputin in this story.

  19. [19] 
    Michale wrote:

    “I want people to come into our country, in the largest numbers ever, but they have to come in legally.”
    -President Donald Trump

    Kinda puts lie to the claim that President Trump is against LEGAL immigrants...

    He is against ILLEGAL immigrants gaming and gumming up the LEGAL immigrant system...

    And, one again, the vast majority of patriotic Americans INCLUDING legal immigrants, support President Trump in this regard..

    It's only the Trump/America haters who have a problem..

  20. [20] 
    Michale wrote:

    Steven Miller is the Rasputin in this story.

    Antisemitism is alive and well... :^/

  21. [21] 
    Michale wrote:

    SPRING SURGE: TRUMP APPROVAL 53% IN NEW POLL...
    http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/current_events/politics/prez_track_apr09

    Apparently President Trump is doing SOMETHING right.. :D

    MAGA

  22. [22] 
    Michale wrote:

    Oooooohhhhh Balthy...?????

    Bill Barr tells Congress he will make public the REDACTED Mueller report 'within a week' but will NOT hand over the full findings and special counsel's evidence
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6903081/House-committee-set-grill-attorney-general-Bill-Barr-Mueller-report.html

    As I said.. The complete and unredacted report will never see the light of day...

  23. [23] 
    Michale wrote:

    Maybe Barr should just delete the report..

    I am sure ya'all would be OK with that as you didn't mind when Hillary deleted her emails..

    :^/

  24. [24] 
    Paula wrote:

    Barr's testimony today makes clear he takes his job as Chief Cover-upper seriously and that the report makes Blotus & gang look bad.

    The GOP COVER-UP continues.

  25. [25] 
    Michale wrote:

    The GOP COVER-UP continues.

    The Democrat Trump slaying hero completely and utterly exonerated President Trump when it comes to Russia Collusion...

    What reason would there be for a cover up??

    You lost.. Get over it already..

  26. [26] 
    ListenWhenYouHear wrote:

    Trump instructed border patrol agents that he met with during his recent visit to the southern border that should tell asylum seekers that America is full, turn them away, and to refuse to start the asylum process for them.

    This was what Trump wanted from his head of the Homeland Security, but Nielsen kept responding to Trump’s demands for this that the law does not allow to it. Trump does not care what the law or the courts say, he wants these people turned away so he can look as tough as the Fox News reporter looked in his Kevlar vest when he reported from the border! Trump wants to restart separating children from their families at the border, despite a court order telling him this is against the law.

    Trump needs to be shown that while it is against DOJ policy to indict a sitting president, there is NOTHING that prevents a judge from finding him in contempt and ordering his arrest. Being found in contempt is a ruling, not an indictment, and Trump is daring the courts to do something to stop him from breaking/ignoring our laws! I do not think that Trump believes he can be stopped now that he has an Attorney General who he believes will ignore the law in order to protect Trump. The courts may be our only hope to reign him in.

  27. [27] 
    Michale wrote:

    Trump instructed border patrol agents that he met with during his recent visit to the southern border that should tell asylum seekers that America is full, turn them away, and to refuse to start the asylum process for them.

    Yea?? So???

    This was what Trump wanted from his head of the Homeland Security, but Nielsen kept responding to Trump’s demands for this that the law does not allow to it.

    The law didn't allow Odumbo to change the immigration law.. Odumbo did it anyways..

    What's yer point??

    Trump needs to be shown that while it is against DOJ policy to indict a sitting president, there is NOTHING that prevents a judge from finding him in contempt and ordering his arrest.

    I would LOVE to see that attempted..

    Democrats should run on that as their platform!!!

    Let me lay it out as clearly and as simply as I can..

    YOU....... (still with me??)..... LOST......

    You put all your eggs in the Russia Collusion basket and you lost.. You rolled the dice and came up snake eyes... You backed the wrong horse, Johnny...

    NOW yer suggestion is to double down on stoopid??

    Good luck with that... :^/

  28. [28] 
    Balthasar wrote:

    As I said.. The complete and unredacted report will never see the light of day...

    Oh, but they'd be rushing to print it if it had 'completely exonerated' Trump.

    What reason would there be for a cover up?

    You ought to be asking Barr that question. What're they trying to hide? Why so coy?

    What your overlords at Fox aren't saying is that there are several ways to overcome the redactions, and Barr has done none of them.

    No petition, for instance, to the Court to have the redacted material released.

    Moreover, in the Benghazi case, the GOP released a ton of redacted material for 'national security' reasons - a valid reason to do so here.

    Face it: Barr is burying the 'good stuff', hoping that no one digs it up before the election.

    ...

  29. [29] 
    Michale wrote:

    Oh, but they'd be rushing to print it if it had 'completely exonerated' Trump.

    It DOES completely exonerate Trump when it comes to the ONLY part that matters. Russia Collusion..

    But it's AGAINST THE LAW to release Grand Jury testimony...

    Funny how you only want to obey the law when it suits your agenda..

    Face it: Barr is burying the 'good stuff', hoping that no one digs it up before the election.

    I know you sincerely believe that. Just like you believed there was Russia collusion..

    As always, though, the FACTS prove you wrong..

  30. [30] 
    Balthasar wrote:

    The law didn't allow Odumbo to change the immigration law.. Odumbo did it anyways..

    Isn't that hypocritical at least?

    C'mon, fess up: if Obama hadn't, you'd be finding other reasons to do so. It's the POLICY that matters.

    And why so hard on asylum seekers? They're NOT trying to sneak in. Is it because they're little brown people? Or is it a matter of principle, something along the lines of "too many potential democrats" or something?

    Oh, that's right, we're FULL.

    Bwahahahahahhahahahahaha. sure.

  31. [31] 
    Balthasar wrote:

    But it's AGAINST THE LAW to release Grand Jury testimony...

    Yep, and as I said, there are remedies for that that have been used before.

    Funny how you only want to obey the law when it suits your agenda..

    Funny how you don't. I smell fear.

    ...

  32. [32] 
    Michale wrote:

    Isn't that hypocritical at least?

    Yes, it's hypocritical that you are OK with it under Obama but complain about it under Trump...

    Me?? I consider it poetic justice AKA

    "... a revolution always comes back around IN YOUR FACE..."
    -Tommy Lee Jones, UNDER SEIGE

    C'mon, fess up: if Obama hadn't, you'd be finding other reasons to do so. It's the POLICY that matters.

    Why didn't you complain about the "policy" when Obama did it??

    And why so hard on asylum seekers? They're NOT trying to sneak in. Is it because they're little brown people? Or is it a matter of principle, something along the lines of "too many potential democrats" or something?

    Kathleen Steinle....

    I know, I know.. She's an American so you don't care about her... The scumbag illegal who murdered her... THAT'S your priority..

    Or the thousands of other illegals who have raped and murdered and assaulted and killed thousands of Americans...

    Whose side are you on???

  33. [33] 
    ListenWhenYouHear wrote:

    I would LOVE to see that attempted..

    Democrats should run on that as their platform!!!

    So you are for the president completely ignoring the court’s rulings without facing consequences, is that it?

    By the way, I call “BINGO” with the Obama what-aboutism in Michale’s last post. I also had his Hillary what-aboutism, his “You loved Trump when he had a -D behind his name” lie, his “This isn’t about Trump’s actions, it’s about being mad that he won the election” BS, and his use of Trump lying in [19] as proof someone else was wrong in the center square for a diagonal win in “Michale’s Bullshat Bingo”!

    The judicial branch is not supposed to be political, nor would it make sense for elected officials to run on a platform that they have absolutely no say in. Being found in contempt is a RULING, not an indictment. Trump’s defiance of the law would be what causes a court to rule against him, not campaign promises.

  34. [34] 
    Balthasar wrote:

    Or the thousands of other illegals who have raped and murdered and assaulted and killed thousands of Americans...

    Whoa! BIG LIE time. I don't suppose that repeating the numbers that show that FEWER immigrants commit crimes than native-born Americans would help.

    I suppose then that you know the names of every one killed by a Trump supporter too?

  35. [35] 
    ListenWhenYouHear wrote:

    YES! Bonus Bingo for Michale changing the subject mid-argument!

    Balthy asked you about asylum seekers, your answer was about illegal immigrants — totally different group! I’m glad we went with Bullshat Bingo instead of doing a shot every time you pull one of your signature moves...I am fairly certain most of us would be dead or on dialysis at the minimum if we hadn’t gone with Bingo!

  36. [36] 
    Michale wrote:

    By the way, I call “BINGO” with the Obama what-aboutism in Michale’s last post. I also had his Hillary what-aboutism, his “You loved Trump when he had a -D behind his name” lie, his “This isn’t about Trump’s actions, it’s about being mad that he won the election” BS, and his use of Trump lying in [19] as proof someone else was wrong in the center square for a diagonal win in “Michale’s Bullshat Bingo”!

    If I were trying to defend Trump's actions by calling on Odumbo and Hillary's actions, THAT would be what aboutism..

    But I am not..

    I am calling into question YA'ALL'S motivations (IE your PARTY bigotry) in complaining about President Trump's actions whilst NOT complaining when Odumbo and Hillary did the same thing..

    Now. Do you have a response to that??

    Or just more bullshit..

  37. [37] 
    Michale wrote:

    Whoa! BIG LIE time. I don't suppose that repeating the numbers that show that FEWER immigrants commit crimes than native-born Americans would help.

    Whoaaa...

    So, Russ cries WHATABOUTISM and you turn around and dive into whataboutism head first..

    Of course Americans commit more crimes than illegal immigrants.. There are a lot more Americans!! Duh..

    But are you saying it's OK for illegal immigrants to rape and murder Americans because Americans do it to???

    Again, I have to ask.. Whose side are you on???

    The rapists and murderers and drug dealers?

    Or Americans??

    Apparently, when I say ya'all are Trump/America haters, I am more accurate than even I thought..

  38. [38] 
    Balthasar wrote:

    But are you saying it's OK for illegal immigrants to rape and murder Americans because Americans do it to?(SIC)

    You made the argument. And you snuck in an 'illegal', which skews the numbers upward. Asylum seekers are not, by definition, 'illegal'.

    Still, FAR fewer immigrants commit crimes when compared to the general population.

    And of course, NONE have instigated the sort of mass-killings that Trump folks have.

    So yeah, I'm on America's side on this.

    ...

  39. [39] 
    nypoet22 wrote:

    Whose side are you on??? The rapists and murderers and drug dealers? Or Americans??

    both statistically and overall, most of the rapists and murderers and drug dealers ARE "americans." among immigrants, even those who are not here legally, there are far fewer violent criminals than there are among the citizenry. never mind glass houses, donald and his base are throwing stones from a house made of peanut brittle.

    JL

  40. [40] 
    Michale wrote:

    both statistically and overall, most of the rapists and murderers and drug dealers ARE "americans."

    And if we were talking about AMERICANS committing crimes, you would have a point.

    But we're not, so you don't...

    NO ONE is claiming that if we stop illegal immigrants, that all crime will stop.. That there will be no more murders or rapes or drug deals if illegal immigrants suddenly cease to exist..

    No one is claiming that..

    BUT...

    But if we DO enforce our immigration laws then Americans like Kathleen Steinle would be alive..

    If we enforced our immigration laws, then K9 Officer Ronil Singh would STILL be alive..

    If we actually enforce our immigration laws than thousands.. TENS of thousands of Americans would not be raped or murdered or killed by illegal drugs...

    Ya'all seem to be claiming that the illegal immigrant's safety and welfare is MORE important than Steinle's life.. MORE important than Officer Singh's life...

    So, this begs the question..

    WHOSE side are you on???

    Illegal immigrants' side??

    Or Americans' side??

    From ya'all's arguments here, the answer is clear...

  41. [41] 
    Michale wrote:

    You made the argument. And you snuck in an 'illegal', which skews the numbers upward. Asylum seekers are not, by definition, 'illegal'.

    They are if they fraudulently seek asylum..

    And of course, NONE have instigated the sort of mass-killings that Trump folks have

    You mean Bernie folks that initiated mass killings, right??

  42. [42] 
    Balthasar wrote:

    But if we DO enforce our immigration laws...

    And who's saying we're not? Or that Kathleen Steinle would be alive if we did?

    What Trump seems to be aiming at is ZERO immigrants.

    We're "Full", remember? You can't enforce that.

    Trump is doing this 1) to rally his base (again), and 2) to stink the place up.

    That's all I can think of, short of marbles loose where they shouldn't be.

  43. [43] 
    Michale wrote:

    And let's face reality here...

    If illegal immigrants were a reliable voting bloc for Republicans as they are for Democrats, ya'all would be fighting tooth and nail to keep them out..

  44. [44] 
    nypoet22 wrote:

    But we're not, so you don't...

    of course we are. you're trying to justify an inhumane policy by creating a false dichotomy between supporting violent criminals or supporting citizens. no such dichotomy exists, because most immigrants, illegal or otherwise, are not violent criminals.

    Kathleen Steinle would be alive..

    or maybe she'd have been killed by one of our many domestic criminals. or maybe she'd have died of heart disease.

    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal

  45. [45] 
    Michale wrote:

    What Trump seems to be aiming at is ZERO immigrants.

    “I want people to come into our country, in the largest numbers ever, but they have to come in legally.”
    -President Donald Trump

    Except the FACTS prove you wrong..

    That's all I can think of,

    Of course that's all you can think of..

    You still think Russia Collusion is a real thing..

  46. [46] 
    Michale wrote:

    or maybe she'd have been killed by one of our many domestic criminals. or maybe she'd have died of heart disease.

    Except you have no facts to support that possibility..

    She would have not been killed by an illegal immigrant if our immigration laws were followed..

    no such dichotomy exists, because most immigrants, illegal or otherwise, are not violent criminals.

    So??? SOME are... And THAT is enough reason to keep ALL illegal immigrants out..

    Would you eat skittles knowing that "MOST" are OK, but only "SOME" are laced with arsenic???

    Of course not.. That would be totally STOOPID...

    Which is EXACTLY what the Democrat's OPEN BORDERS policy is..

    STOOPID..

  47. [47] 
    Michale wrote:

    And let's face reality here...

    If illegal immigrants were a reliable voting bloc for Republicans as they are for Democrats, ya'all would be fighting tooth and nail to keep them out..

    THAT is what it all boils down to..

    Party Loyalty...

  48. [48] 
    Michale wrote:

    Canada's golden boy Trudeau sinks in polls as scandal takes toll
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-canada-politics/canadas-golden-boy-trudeau-sinks-in-polls-as-scandal-takes-toll-idUSKCN1RL269

    Something else ya'all were wrong about...

    It's funny how no one here can admit that..

  49. [49] 
    Michale wrote:

    JL, lemme ask you something..

    You're a new father...

    Would you invite an illegal immigrant into your home if there was a 1 in 20 chance that he was a murderer or a rapist??

    Of course you wouldn't... What sane person would??

    Yet, you seem to have no problem inviting them into this country, even though they COULD possibly rape or murder Americans..

    Where is the logic in such a stance???

    There is none..

    It's all driven by Party loyalty... An ideologically based social construct..

    It's totally at odds with the physical reality..

  50. [50] 
    Balthasar wrote:

    Asylum seekers are not, by definition, 'illegal'.
    They are if they fraudulently seek asylum..

    There's a system for determining that. Trump seems to think there's something wrong with it, but instead of trying to fix that, he wants to shut down the border.

    You mean Bernie folks that initiated mass killings, right?

    One Bernie guy.

    Alexandre Bissonnette, January 2017, opened fire and killed 6 and wounded 19 at the Islamic Cultural Center in Quebec City, Canada.

    Robert Bowers killed 11 in the Tree of Life Synagogue killing.

    Gregory Bush shot two blacks in a Kroger shopping mall in Kentucky.

    ..and so on. There isn't enough time or space to name them all.

  51. [51] 
    Balthasar wrote:

    So??? SOME are... And THAT is enough reason to keep ALL illegal immigrants out..

    THAT is a reason to keep anyone out, if history is to be believed. I believe that argument has been used since Nero, and has certainly been used against every immigrant group in America at one time or another.

    Face it. It's just the same old thing.

  52. [52] 
    Michale wrote:

    There's a system for determining that. Trump seems to think there's something wrong with it, but instead of trying to fix that, he wants to shut down the border.

    There IS something wrong with it because we are being overrun....

    Communities are at the breaking point and AMERICANS are suffering..

    But YOUR priority are the illegal immigrants.. I get that..

    Alexandre Bissonnette, January 2017, opened fire and killed 6 and wounded 19 at the Islamic Cultural Center in Quebec City, Canada.

    Robert Bowers killed 11 in the Tree of Life Synagogue killing.

    Gregory Bush shot two blacks in a Kroger shopping mall in Kentucky.

    ..and so on. There isn't enough time or space to name them all.

    And Trump is responsible for all of that??

    Do you HONESTLY believe that??

    But Bernie is NOT responsible for HIS guy, right??

    You see how utterly whacked your position is??

    It's TOTALLY based on Party slavery...

  53. [53] 
    Michale wrote:

    THAT is a reason to keep anyone out, if history is to be believed. I believe that argument has been used since Nero, and has certainly been used against every immigrant group in America at one time or another.

    Once again.. if we were talking about IMMIGRANT groups, you would have a point..

    But we're talking about ILLEGAL immigrants, so you don't..

  54. [54] 
    Balthasar wrote:

    There IS something wrong with it because we are being overrun....

    Communities are at the breaking point and AMERICANS are suffering..

    WHAT?? Why wasn't I informed about this? Oh, that's right. It isn't happening.

    And Trump is responsible for all of that?

    Ah, I feel your horror. Tell you what: you stop blaming Bernie for the guy in the park, and I'll stop saying Trump's to blame for the others.

    Gotta go..pick this up later..

  55. [55] 
    Michale wrote:

    WHAT?? Why wasn't I informed about this? Oh, that's right. It isn't happening.

    A man was charged with murder on Wednesday after he fatally shot a California police officer who pulled him over under the suspicion of drunken driving, the authorities said.

    The man, identified by the authorities as Gustavo Perez Arriaga, was arrested Friday after a manhunt that fueled tensions over illegal immigration when President Trump tweeted about it. The police say Mr. Perez Arriaga entered the United States illegally.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/02/us/california-police-officer-shooting-immigrant.html

    Except it is... But your ideological slavery doesn't allow you to care..

    Ah, I feel your horror. Tell you what: you stop blaming Bernie for the guy in the park, and I'll stop saying Trump's to blame for the others.

    Except you blamed Trump first..

    I'll be willing to concede that Democrat leadership is NOT responsible for the GOP shooter if you concede that Trump is NOT responsible for the violent acts of those who may support him..

    Deal???

    For bonus points, I'll condemn those who claim that the GOP shooter is a Democrat operative if YOU condemn those who claim that Trump is responsible for the violence done by his supporters..

    Deal???

  56. [56] 
    Michale wrote:

    Turnout very low among Arab Israeli voters, pollsters say
    Hadash-Ta’al slate calls reports of significant drop in voting rates ‘an emergency,’ warning of ‘a very serious blow to Arab representation’

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/turnout-very-low-among-arab-israeli-voters-pollsters-say/

    Looks like Bibi is going for another term.. :D

  57. [57] 
    Michale wrote:

    Dallas, Houston considered for new migrant shelters as monthly apprehensions expected to reach 100,000
    https://www.dallasnews.com/news/immigration/2019/04/08/dallas-houston-considered-new-migrant-shelters-monthly-apprehensions-expected-reach-100000

    AMERICAN communities are suffering..

    All because Democrats want open borders....

  58. [58] 
    Michale wrote:

    Serrano-Vitorino, who was in the country illegally from Mexico, had been charged with five counts of first-degree murder after he allegedly killed four men in Kansas City, Kan., and later killed another man in Missouri before being captured.

    Another illegal immigrant who murdered 5 people...

    And Democrats want to invite more like him into our country..

    Batshit crazy....

  59. [59] 
    Michale wrote:

    Illegal immigrant with criminal history arrested in California woman's murder

    Illegal immigrant with criminal history arrested in murder of California woman

    An illegal immigrant with known gang ties has been arrested in the stabbing death of a San Jose woman; Jonathan Hunt has the details.

    Police in California have arrested an illegal immigrant with known gang ties and an extensive criminal history in the February killing of a San Jose woman.

    Carlos Eduardo Arevalo Carranza, 24, was arrested Monday night in connection with the murder of 59-year-old Bambi Larson; police say he stalked her before stabbing her to death.
    https://www.foxnews.com/us/illegal-immigrant-with-criminal-history-arrested-in-california-womans-murder

    These are the kinds of people Democrats want in our country...

    WHY???

    Because they reliably vote Democrat...

  60. [60] 
    Michale wrote:

    Rantz: After illegal immigrant murders deputy, Dems push sanctuary state

    A Kittitas County Sheriff’s Deputy was killed and a Kittitas police officer was injured during a shootout Tuesday, March 20, 2019. (KIRO 7)

    Just one day after it was revealed that an illegal immigrant murdered a Kittitas County Sheriff’s Deputy, House Democrats in Olympia moved forward with a bill that will codify further protections in this sanctuary state.

    Last week, following a road rage incident, Deputy Ryan Thompson was shot and killed by Juan Manuel Flores Del Toro, a 29 year-old who overstayed his H-2A visa in 2014. Another officer, Kittitas Police Officer Benito Chavez, was shot in the leg but will thankfully recover.
    https://mynorthwest.com/1322960/rantz-illegal-immigrant-murders-deputy-sanctuary-state/

    Another illegal immigrant cop-killer and Democrats want to protect them...

    WHY???

    Because they reliably vote Democrat...

  61. [61] 
    Michale wrote:

    There are HUNDREDS of murders by illegal immigrants I can list...

    And DEMOCRATS want to protect them....

    Why???

    Because they reliably vote Democrat..

  62. [62] 
    Kick wrote:

    CW: Being anti-immigrant is about as American as apple pie, as horrifying as that might sound to those who are more comfortable sweeping such excesses under the historical rug.

    Commenting as I read, and I would double wager that JL will have something to say about your denigration of pie in such a manner! ;)

  63. [63] 
    Kick wrote:

    NO DUH HEADLINE

    Bernie Sanders finally admits he's one of those "millionaires and billionaires" and says he'll release 10 years of his taxes.

    Who knew Bernie was the living embodiment of the thing he railed against over and over and over ad nauseam and that's why he wouldn't release his taxes?

    Narrator: Nearly everybody with a pulse. :)

  64. [64] 
    nypoet22 wrote:

    @kick,

    see [2]

    ;)

    JL

  65. [65] 
    Paula wrote:

    [63] Kick: Yep.

    Berniers will find a way to rationalize why Bernie's dough is PURE, though. He will have made $ as a result of his position - in myriad ways - but he will play it as the result of something else. Just his "labor" or whatever.

    Or so it seems. We haven't seen the actual returns yet so we don't know what story they will tell. His "you too can be a millionaire by writing a bestseller" pre-emption is interesting though. Trying to set the narrative.

    Just like a common politician.

  66. [66] 
    nypoet22 wrote:

    @balthasar,

    WHAT?? Why wasn't I informed about this? Oh, that's right. It isn't happening.

    there are criminals in every community, no matter how few. even though immigrants number significantly fewer violent criminals per-capita than the rest of us, there are still going to be isolated anecdotes to confirm the false beliefs of those already inclined to believe them.

    JL

    “The great enemy of truth is very often not the lie--deliberate, contrived and dishonest--but the myth--persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."
    ~John F. Kennedy

  67. [67] 
    Kick wrote:

    CW: Will Trump soon announce a return to the child-separation policy in a major way?

    No. He will act in the normal mafioso fashion. He will claim he's not done anything and then blame somebody else for doing what he ordered done and then fire anybody who doesn't do exactly what he wants (via tweet since he is a coward who doesn't like direct confrontation when he's stabbing people in the back for not doing the thing he wants them to do, which is the thing he's blaming somebody else for doing).

    Will he ignore the advice of his saner advisors and shut the Mexican border down in a fit of pique?

    On what grounds? Trump doesn't own the border; it's not his to shut down... but it does sound like the type of boneheaded business move Trump would make. Trump might be Putin's bitch, but Texas will not be Trump's. We'll see you in court Putin's bitch. You've already lost 65-ish cases in court; what's one more?

    Will he unleash his border guards to use increasingly-harsh methods to turn away asylum seekers?

    It won't matter since they are the law and as such are fully aware of the law and will not break said law... or suffer the liability that comes with it. Actually, had Trump really wished to change immigration laws, he likely could have done so when he had full control of the House and the Senate, but he obviously didn't want to change what he wanted to exploit for personal gain/reelection purposes.

    Mexico is not paying for any Wall. Trump isn't making things better at the border... actually much worse. It seems like a ridiculous strategy to run on the very same thing you've run on before and failed gloriously at doing.

    Will he just go whole hog and completely militarize the entire border? At this point, anything seems possible, really.

    That won't matter either. Soldiers are also duty bound to follow the law, and you can bet your bottom dollar that the overwhelming majority of them will do so. Why do you think Mattis left? :)

  68. [68] 
    Kick wrote:

    JL
    2

    it most certainly is not as american as apple pie!

    *laughs* I knew this was coming the minute I saw Professor Plum in the kitchen with the knife.

    on behalf of apple pie everywhere i take exception to such buttercream smearing, mr. cake frosting weigant!

    Mr. Cake Frosting! *laughs*

  69. [69] 
    Kick wrote:

    Russ | Balthasar | JL

    BINGO. Nice posts. :)

    Trump's current wife was working in this country illegally on a tourist visa, and Trump's modelling agency would routinely bring in illegal immigrants into this country to work while holding only tourist visas. The sad fact is that the Trumps including President Pinocchio have been knowingly hiring illegal immigrants by the thousands for decades and didn't bother to stop doing it until extremely recently when they got outed by the press and only then began purging their known illegal hires at multiple of the Trump properties.

    http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/01/trump-and-his-company-are-no-aliens-to-undocumented-workers.html

    Trump's history of hiring illegals to build and staff a myriad of Trump properties is legendary, while at the same time I would wager quite a large sum that among Russ, Balthasar, JL, Paula, Neil, me... virtually if not everybody on the board... that not a single illegal immigrant was knowingly hired by a single one of us. Meanwhile, the MAGA minions can't even identify the dots of hypocrisy staring them right in the face and couldn't even connect them together if you spoon-fed them every single dot. :)

  70. [70] 
    Kick wrote:

    Paula
    65

    Berniers will find a way to rationalize why Bernie's dough is PURE, though. He will have made $ as a result of his position - in myriad ways - but he will play it as the result of something else. Just his "labor" or whatever.

    Yep. Meanwhile, Trump and Bernie are virtually two heads of the same coin:

    -- Trump whining about "illegal immigrants" while knowingly having gainfully employed/still employing thousands of them and convincing the minions that "the poor" and "the brown others" are the root of all evil and keeping those ignorant "blame flames" stoked and burning because it's the "Trump brand" and basically all he's capable of.

    -- Bernie whining about "millionaires and billionaires" while knowingly being one of them and convincing the minions that "the rich" and "the corporate others" are the root of all evil and keeping those ignorant "blame flames" stoked and burning because it's the "Bern brand" and basically all he's capable of.

    Do either of these sides of the same coin strike you as having even a scintilla of a chance to bring legislators together to accomplish anything for the people who so desperately cling to the utter nonsensical and asinine bullshit that they both spew?

    His "you too can be a millionaire by writing a bestseller" pre-emption is interesting though. Trying to set the narrative.

    I know, right!? It sucks for a candidate and their minions when you turn out to be the living embodiment of exactly the thing you've claimed is the problem. If releasing your tax returns will confirm that you're exactly the thing that you claim to be fighting against, there goes the narrative!

    Poor "Paying Illegals For Decades" Donald... Poor "Millionaire" Saint Bernard... tough break having to admit your political spew is actually you; it's not easy being a fraud.

    Just like a common politician.

    You misspelled "con man." ;)

  71. [71] 
    Michale wrote:

    there are criminals in every community, no matter how few. even though immigrants number significantly fewer violent criminals per-capita than the rest of us, there are still going to be isolated anecdotes to confirm the false beliefs of those already inclined to believe them.

    And, once again, you change the subject because you can't address the FACTS of the subject we ARE talking about.....

    We're talking ILLEGAL immigrants, not immigrants..

    And what percentage of ILLEGAL immigrants commit crimes??

    Why, it's 100%....

    “The great enemy of truth is very often not the lie--deliberate, contrived and dishonest--but the myth--persistent, persuasive and unrealistic."

    And it's a MYTH that we're talking about immigrants..

    We're not.. Although I understand why ya'all are so desperate to change the issue..

  72. [72] 
    Michale wrote:

    Israel's Netanyahu wins reelection with parliamentary majority - tally
    http://news.trust.org/item/20190410080103-h7ruo

    Looks like Bibi is in.... :D

    Woot!!!

  73. [73] 
    nypoet22 wrote:

    You can either make your comparison general or specific, not both at the same time on opposite sides. violent crimes among illegals are in fact even lower than they are among legal immigrants. But that fact doesn't fit the xenophobic narrative.

  74. [74] 
    Michale wrote:

    violent crimes among illegals are in fact even lower than they are among legal immigrants.

    Which doesn't change the fact that illegal immigrants DO commit violent crimes. DO rape and murder Americans..

    And they WOULDN'T be able to do that if our immigration laws were enforced..

    These are all facts that totally decimate your ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS SHOULD BE PROTECTED argument..

  75. [75] 
    Michale wrote:

    But that fact doesn't fit the xenophobic narrative.

    That's because there IS no xenophobic narrative..

    There is only a saving Americans lives narrative...

  76. [76] 
    nypoet22 wrote:

    You can make an illogical statement as many times and ways as you like, but it's still illogical, and in my opinion xenophobic as well. Communities with more undocumented immigrants have fewer violent crimes. That's a fact. If you really want to save lives, stop deporting anyone who isn't violent.

  77. [77] 
    Michale wrote:

    You can make an illogical statement as many times and ways as you like, but it's still illogical, and in my opinion xenophobic as well.

    I understand it's your opinion.. But that opinion is formed by sympathy for the illegal immigrants and not the Americans that are killed or raped or attacked by them.

    Communities with more undocumented immigrants have fewer violent crimes.

    Facts to support??

    If you really want to save lives, stop deporting anyone who isn't violent.

    And if you can come up with a sure fire method to indicate which ones will and won't be violent, then the problem is solved..

    Until such time as a Temporal Incursion & Analysis (TIA) device is created, it's better to get rid of ALL the skittles, even though it's only a relative few that are poisoned...

  78. [78] 
    Michale wrote:

    I understand it's your opinion.. But that opinion is formed by sympathy for the illegal immigrants and not the Americans that are killed or raped or attacked by them.

    I draw your attention to the hypothetical I posted above..

    Would you invite an illegal immigrant into your home, knowing that there is a 1 in 20 chance he will do violent harm to your family??

  79. [79] 
    Balthasar wrote:

    Facts to support?

    - A 2018 study published in Criminology analyzed population-level crime rates from all 50 states from 1990 to 2014 and found that the relationship between immigration and crime is "generally negative." "Increases in the undocumented immigrant population within states are associated with significant decreases in the prevalence of violence," study author Michael Light writes.

    - A 2015 study found that, in the same period, the immigration population more than tripled in the United States; from 1990 to 2013, the violent crime rate decreased by 48 percent, according to Federal Bureau of Investigation data.

    - A 2018 study from the Cato Institute found that immigrants have far lower arrest and criminal conviction rates than native-born Americans—a pattern that study author Alex Nowrasteh says holds for all crimes. Homicide conviction rates were 16 percent lower for immigrants than for native-born Americans in Texas in 2015, and criminal convictions overall were 50 percent lower for immigrants.

    - Another Cato Institute study looked at prison data, finding that the incarceration rate for native-born Americas was 1.53 percent, compared to 0.85 percent for illegal immigrants and 0.47 percent for legal immigrants.

    - A 2014 study of juvenile offenders in the Journal of Youth and Justice found recent immigrants have "significantly lower" rates of violent or property crime, although second-generation immigrants commit crimes at a level more similar to their native-born peers.

    Source: https://psmag.com/social-justice/research-tells-us-that-immigration-does-not-lead-to-higher-crime-rates

  80. [80] 
    Michale wrote:

    "..... and found that the relationship between immigration and crime....."

    FAIL

    "..... the immigration population more than tripled in the United States;......"

    FAIL

    "..... found that immigrants have far ....."

    FAIL

    "Another Cato Institute study looked at prison data, finding that the incarceration rate for native-born Americas was 1.53 percent, compared to 0.85 percent for illegal immigrants and 0.47 percent for legal immigrants."

    Wow.. YOu got one that's actually on topic..

    So the fact is crime is higher amongst ILLEGAL immigrants than amongst legal immigrants by nearly a factor of 2..

    Thank you for proving my point..

    "...... the Journal of Youth and Justice found recent immigrants have "significantly lower"......"

    And back to moving the goal posts.. FAIL

    The ONLY fact you listed that is relevant proves my point for me..

    Thanx Balthy.. Yer a mensch... :D

    So... You wanna address the hypothetical??

    Would you invite an illegal immigrant into your home, if there was a 1 in 20 chance he would do violent harm to your family??

    No, of course you wouldn't.. What kind of sick moron would!???

    So, this begs the question.. Why are you wanting to invite that possibility into OUR home????

    Is it not better that 100 illegal immigrants are forced to stay out than allowing 1 illegal immigrant to kill or rape an innocent American???

    Again, this begs the question.. Whose side are you on??

  81. [81] 
    Michale wrote:

    Balthy,

    It's really easy..

    Every time you want to talk about IMMIGRANTS, you are moving the goal posts because you can't address the issue..

    ILLEGAL immigrants...

    THAT is the issue...

  82. [82] 
    nypoet22 wrote:

    presume for a moment that cato's numbers are right and illegal immigrants are 0.85% violent criminals. that would be a 1 in 117 chance that someone randomly chosen would be a violent offender, not 1 in 20.

    would you invite a random natural born citizen into your home if there were a 1 in 65 chance THAT person was a violent offender?

    all things told i'd prefer to vet someone personally before i invite them in, but if forced to choose i'd certainly like my chances better than yours.

  83. [83] 
    Michale wrote:

    would you invite a random natural born citizen into your home if there were a 1 in 65 chance THAT person was a violent offender?

    Not only NO, but HELL no..

    Would you???

    all things told i'd prefer to vet someone personally before i invite them in, but if forced to choose i'd certainly like my chances better than yours.

    So, you agree its better to VET people before we just let them into our home..

    OK.. Great.. I completely agree..

    And, until they are vetted, they DON'T get let in...

    Common ground.. A wonderful thing..

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