Hillary Woos Bernie Supporters
It's been a busy week for Hillary Clinton, that's for sure. But while almost all of the media attention has been on the results of the F.B.I.'s investigation into her email server, Clinton also took the biggest step she's yet taken to offer the supporters of Bernie Sanders an inspiring reason to vote for her. Her embrace of the "tuition-free college" idea Bernie ran on is a fundamental shift in direction for Clinton's campaign, and represents the biggest effort she's so far made to woo his voters into her camp. Sanders is rumored to be on the brink of formally endorsing Clinton (which could happen early next week, perhaps in New Hampshire), so her college tuition shift could be his last big influence on her agenda.
Sanders has not, of course, suspended his campaign as of yet. He's been hanging in there as a thorn in Clinton's side in an effort to dramatically change the direction of the Democratic Party. So far, he's been impressively successful in doing so. He has won many concessions on the party's platform document. Sanders didn't get everything he wanted, but he got enough items into the document to show the importance of the campaign agenda he ran on to millions of Democratic voters. Bernie has shaken the party loose from their timidity and complacency on a number of issues, and he also showed Democrats what a positive agenda for change can accomplish with the electorate. By writing many of the planks of the platform, he ensures that Democrats will be still paying attention to these issues long after the election is over. He has moved much of his agenda from being described as "fringe" or "radical" into being mainstream Democratic ideas. That's an impressive accomplishment by any measure.
But up until now, while Bernie Sanders has been working the platform committee as hard as possible, Hillary Clinton herself hasn't shifted her positions much. Her natural inclination at this point (as would be true for any politician in her position, to be fair) is to "tack to the center" for the general election. In other words, soften some of the bolder stances she's so far taken and hedge some of the language she previously used. This is basic presidential politics, designed to appeal to the center and all the undecided voters who usually swing entire elections.
But this is anything but a textbook presidential election, to put it mildly. At the moment, it looks like it could shape up into an election where most voters are voting against the other guy (or gal). Both Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump have historically-high negative ratings in polls. Clinton would benefit from a higher level of enthusiasm from her own base, to put this another way. Which is why the college tuition move could be an important one.
It's pretty obvious why this particular issue is the one Clinton chose to make a big move on. The demographics almost demanded it. Bernie enjoyed overwhelming support among younger Democratic voters in the primaries. These younger voters are not all that impressed with Hillary Clinton, since most of them don't even remember when her husband was president. Her history and her previous accomplishments don't move the youth vote much at all. So what is one of the biggest issues for this demographic? College debt. The high price of higher education. Spending your 20s (and 30s, sometimes) paying off massive piles of debt rather than buying new cars or your first house. This is an issue which touches millions of families and so far Clinton's ideas to make the situation better have been pretty small-bore.
During the primaries, she touted her own plan, which would have required the students to (as she put it) "have some skin in the game" -- meaning having to work while going to college, for the most part. Students who already have plenty of skin in the game of getting a college degree weren't all that impressed, to put it mildly. Hillary denounced Bernie's "tuition-free state college for all" plan as being too expensive, too unreasonable, and "paying for Donald Trump's kids to go to college." Not very inspiring stuff, for young voters. How many rich people's kids go to state schools rather than private colleges, after all?
Clinton began timidly moving on the issue last week. Her first two ideas were, once again, so incremental as to be little actual help to students awash in debt: a three-month extension of the window students have after they graduate before they have to start paying off their student loans, and forgiving student loans for entrepreneurs who start a successful business and employ others. Three extra months is nice, but doesn't change much of anything in the long run. And if you're going to be the next Bill Gates or Steve Jobs, it's likely you won't be all that worried about paying off your student debts in the first place. Starting a business sounds nice and all, but usually requires tens of thousands of dollars to get off the ground, and few students have access to that kind of borrowing ability with all those student loans hanging over their heads (unless their parents help pay for it). None of Clinton's proposals would make any sort of fundamental change in the system, which was (coincidentally) the biggest reason young Bernie supporters haven't been on Hillary's side all along. Incrementalism isn't very inspiring, in other words.
This is why Clinton's movement on student debt is a big one. She still couldn't quite bring herself to adopt Bernie's simple position ("tuition-free state college and university for all"), but she got pretty close to it, offering tuition-free state college and university for the poor and most of the middle class. Families making under $125,000 (this limit would actually start at $85,000 and move up to $125,000 in a few years) will all be eligible, which is not "for all" but does cover a big enough chunk of the families worried about paying college bills as to qualify as a big and fundamental change. Clinton is clearly trying to woo Bernie supporters with this move. Much more important than some language changes in the party platform, this is an issue which Bernie could actually campaign on for Clinton. That's a fairly big deal, because so far it's the biggest shift he's convinced her to make, at least since the primaries were over.
Tuition-free college isn't the same as "free college." It doesn't cover books, supplies, housing, or food. College students may still have to take out loans or work to get an education, in other words. But it'll lessen the cost enormously for millions, and for plenty of families out there it might mean the difference between being able to afford an education or giving up all hopes of going to college.
Conventional wisdom and polling were already indicating that Hillary Clinton wouldn't have as big a problem unifying the Democratic Party as some would have predicted. Since the primaries ended, a much larger percent of the Democratic base have already moved over to her side (rather than stating they'd vote for the Republican candidate) than was true in 2008. The rift between Clinton supporters and Obama supporters was actually a lot bigger back then, and it healed a lot more slowly. But then again, back then there was a Republican candidate Democrats could see as being plausibly presidential, which is not exactly the case this time around.
The safe choice for Hillary would have been to just ignore Bernie, let him have his way with the platform document, and then make the inevitable tack to the center. The polling backed up this choice, and she could have just tried to use the fear of President Trump to turn former Bernie voters out in November. Instead, she has chosen a big issue for the largest demographic of Bernie voters out there, and staked out a position almost as bold as that taken by Sanders himself. By doing so, she may have finally convinced Bernie to offer her his full-throated support. Bernie can tell his own supporters to get behind Clinton, since he successfully convinced her to take such a big step towards tuition-free college. Of course, he's not going to convince everyone who supported him to back Clinton (some will stay home in disillusionment, some will vote for Jill Stein), but he's now got a solid reason why electing Clinton could truly improve the lives of his youthful supporters. He can claim -- rightly so -- that he was the sole reason for her shift in position, and that he stayed in the race long enough to make it happen. It's impossible to say how much this argument will resonate with his young supporters, but it's a lot better argument than just "Trump would be a disaster." It might just be enough to give a lot of young voters a big reason to vote for Hillary, not just against the other guy, in other words.
-- Chris Weigant
Follow Chris on Twitter: @ChrisWeigant
College costs in my local state for 4 year degree (2016 dollars, based on last year's costs for one of my kids):
State college fees: $28,000
Lodging: $40,000
Living: $10,000
Books: $2,000
Total: $80,000
Sanders savings (thanks Bernie!): $28,000 = 35%
Net net $50K for a high quality STEM degree is a good deal.
The economist has a chart showing the impact of different degrees, and $50K is a small price to pay for the benefits and it seems loans are easy to get.
My kid works, so is earning $5K/year = $20K over the four years, so net cost would be $30K.
I think the problem for many people is that they fall into one of the pitfalls:
1. Think a private 4 year degree is significantly more valuable than a regular state school (typically not the case at the Bachelor level)
2. Take longer then 4 years
3. Get a degree in a subject that isn't going to generate an increased return, and are simply four years behind, and in a lot more debt, than a high school graduate.
I think that investment into an equivalent of the CFPB for students would be of great value as well: the Student Financial Protection Bureau (SFPB) - to protect students from rapacious institutions.
Here's a very different take on the actual boldness of Clinton's previous plan for College debt rather than seeing the world through reality-distorting Bernie Goggles
http://washingtonmonthly.com/2016/07/03/how-clinton-would-wipe-out-average-workers-student-debt/
@SP[2]
Very interesting. This is Hillary all over, she can't get her ideas out because she can't articulate them in a way that makes sound-bites for the nightly news. Into that vacuum we have the King of Sound-Bites himself.
OK, while staying up late listening for breaking news from Dallas, I've gone back and answered all comments for the entire week -- check all the previous columns for these.
I had to draw the line at last Friday, however, where the comment thread is up to (!) over 500 comments. I'm falling asleep as it is, sorry folks.
-CW
Her embrace of the "tuition-free college" idea Bernie ran on is a fundamental shift in direction for Clinton's campaign, and represents the biggest effort she's so far made to woo his voters into her camp. Sanders is rumored to be on the brink of formally endorsing Clinton (which could happen early next week, perhaps in New Hampshire), so her college tuition shift could be his last big influence on her agenda.
I thought that Hillary (and ya'all, incidentially) stated that THAT was just a "pipe-dream" and totally unrealistic...???
That's all I can muster because I am in shock at "real commitments against the police" that the Democrat Party and (O)LBM have adopted for their Party Platform... :^(
Michale
All the hatred and bigotry against the cops that Hussein Odumbo and the Demcorat Party has fostered???
VIDEO— DALLAS SHOOTER FIRES ON POLICE — EXECUTES POLICE OFFICER
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/07/video-dallas-shooter-filmed-firing-police-executing-officer-dallas/
THAT is the result...
I am SICKENED by my President and the Democrats...
Michale
And here we have President Obama's statement...
"Police must root out bias"
Yea.. It's ALL the cops' fault... :^/
Michale
And here we have President Obama's statement...
"Police must root out bias"
Yea.. It's ALL the cops' fault... :^/
Michale
http://sjfm.us/temp/DPD_Badge.jpg
And remind the few.....
When ill of us they speak.....
That we are all that stands between.....
The monsters and the weak....
M
You may be incensed, but Dallas is an obvious response to the violations of the social compact. Had some of the hundreds of police who shot unarmed black people (especially children) in recent years actually seen jail, Dallas would not have happened.
Regulations and law enforcement are not there to protect me from bad actors. These things exist to protect bad actors from me.
Bankers in the '30s needed police escorts to go home at night. Snake-oil salesmen were tarred and feathered or drawn and quartered if they weren't lucky enough to get out of town in time.
The basic idea is that I'd allow the gov't to administer justice when people hurt me or when businesses profit by harming my communities rather than take matters into my own hands.
When gov't stops doing that (living up to its own end of the social compact), then I am no longer under any obligation to uphold my end and can engage in vigilante justice.
Just to clarify, I'm not saying this is the good outcome. I am quite happy with the social compact.
But when gov't doesn't do the justice part with murderers, rapists, or thieves or punish polluters and shoddy mine operators then what. It's worse when the murderers are cops, the thieves are bankers, and the mine operators are, well, mine operators. All of whom give big campaign contributions to game the system.
I would much rather justice be done with due process and all. But the onus is on gov't to do its part. If not, ....
Speak,
http://hw.infowars.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/080716tweets.jpg
You seem to be saying, "Serves them right"....
I would much rather justice be done with due process and all. But the onus is on gov't to do its part.
The government IS doing it's part. When cops are guilty, they ARE prosecuted and punished..
The problem is, the Left Wingery in general and the (O)BLM racists doesn't WANT that..
They want cops executed EVERY time that cops kill a black person regardless of whether or not it is a justifiable shooting.
THAT is what the Left Wingery and the (O)BLM racists are all about...
But, thank you.. Your statements are represenative of how the Democrat Party feels about this..
Killing cops is a natural reaction to incidents of justifiable shooting of black people by LEOs.. :^/
Michale
You may be incensed, but Dallas is an obvious response to the violations of the social compact. Had some of the hundreds of police who shot unarmed black people (especially children) in recent years actually seen jail, Dallas would not have happened.
Let me give you some facts here, Speak...
In any given year, police killing black males accounts for .08% of all black male killings..
Black males killing black males accounts for NINETY SIX % of all black male killings..
In other words, in a year where 10,000 black males are killed.....
EIGHT of them are at the hands of police, virtually ALL of them ruled justified...
NINE THOUSAND SIX HUNDRED of those 10,000 deaths are at the hands of other black males..
And you have the gall to say that police killings of black males (99.9% of which are justified) is the problem!???
In what galaxy on what planet???
Michale
Dallas gunman was upset about recent shootings, wanted to kill whites: Police chief
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jul/8/dallas-police-chief-suspect-said-he-was-upset-abou/?mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiWkdVeE5EaGlNVFptWldObSIsInQiOiI2cXY3S3F5OEFiTG1Ydk16ZEMrcExWdnFtTFwvVFppTGJ4elhoSXYxeXViK3BHWUltN0d6RmxNeDBBTDFwYXRhdHkyK1VDQis1V0tHbXk4RUtqN0FIaHVBVmNmKzZ5cmsrU0dOSjNITXdFMEk9In0%3D
There's your (O)BLM, Weigantians..
In all their "glory"
We started hearing rapid fire. One police officer standing there pushed me out of the way because it was coming our direction. Like you can see my legs are scarred up because he pushed us out of the way.
-Black Male Protester
You see that?? This guy was there PROTESTING "killer cops" and a cop saved his life!!!
And the Left Wingery STILL points fingers at Trump and Trump supporters for violence... :^/
Michale
M
I am in no way justifying the actions of the lunatics in Dallas any more than I would justify anyone else murdering "innocents."
But, you write When cops are guilty, they ARE prosecuted and punished.
When, exactly?
Over the last few years, we've seen many police officers kill people, especially black people who were unarmed, subdued, etc, thanks to phone video.
How many of these officers actually saw the inside of a jail cell? Which ones, exactly?
And, please, leave the rest of the ranting aside. This is a serious discussion.
I am in no way justifying the actions of the lunatics in Dallas any more than I would justify anyone else murdering "innocents."
Really???
You may be incensed, but Dallas is an obvious response to the violations of the social compact.
That looks like justification to me..
Over the last few years, we've seen many police officers kill people, especially black people who were unarmed, subdued, etc, thanks to phone video.
And, in virtually ALL of those case, it was justified...
THAT's the point you don't get.. You see a cop shoot a black man and you AUTOMATICALLY assume the cop is the bad guy and the black man was completely innocent..
How many of these officers actually saw the inside of a jail cell? Which ones, exactly?
Would it matter if I could point one out??? Would you acknowledge that you are wrong??
Regardless, why should a cop see the inside of a jail cell when the shooting is justified???
And, please, leave the rest of the ranting aside. This is a serious discussion.
I am not ranting. I am pissed off as I take these types of assassinations very personally..
ESPECIALLY when I see the Left Wingery going out of their way to JUSTIFY the assassinations of police officers...
Michale
There is never a justification for shooting a fleeing man in the back, a restrained man multiple times, an 11-year-old child playing in the street. There is never a justification for murdering someone in their jail cell.
The process for determining whether these incidents are justified is broken in a systemic way. That's the point you seem to be missing.
There is a systemic type of racism in our processes. There is an automatic bias for the police in our justice system (and even prior to that point in the process).
Additionally, there is systemic bias towards the wealthy in our approach to white-collar crime.
Calling something an "obvious response" is not the same as justifying it. Please see the nuance.
Horrendously killing the snake oil salesman can be understood without calling it justified. Those are two different concepts.
Heck, I "understand" the 9/11 attacks, though I would never consider them justified!
There is never a justification for shooting a fleeing man in the back
Yes there is...
You see, that's my point. You spout off ignorant inanities that completely show that you have absolutely NO knowledge of the issues at hand..
Michale
There is a systemic type of racism in our processes. There is an automatic bias for the police in our justice system (and even prior to that point in the process).
Prove it...
You can't....
Michale
There is never a justification for shooting a fleeing man in the back
Don't tell me, let me guess..
"HANDS UP, DON'T SHOOT"
or maybe..
"I CAN'T BREATHE"
Total BS mantras that have absolutely NOTHING to do with reality.....
Michale
Horrendously killing the snake oil salesman can be understood without calling it justified. Those are two different concepts.
Not at all...
By "understanding" you are mitigating and extenuating the crime...
There simply is NO mitigation or extenuation in the brutal assassinations of police officers..
NONE... ZERO... ZILCH.... NADA....
If a police officer shoots a child because the child was playing with a toy gun that looked real..... THAT is mitigation and extenuation...
What you are doing is blatant justification based on bigotry and racism....
"They were killed because of their color, which was not black or white but blue."
Michale
There is never a justification for shooting a fleeing man in the back, a restrained man multiple times, an 11-year-old child playing in the street. There is never a justification for murdering someone in their jail cell.
Unless, of course, they are all white..
Then you wouldn't even say BOO about them... :^/
So, you are correct.. Racism IS alive and well...
But it's not coming from LEOs....
Michale
Emotions are raw, people have been murdered and terrorized, but not all the facts are in. Everybody on the sidelines needs to shut up and not say or do anything stupid for a while. Too many people have already died. Don't poke the hornets nest with a stick. Let the justice system, flawed though it is, do it's work. Examined by the press, as flawed as it is. Moderated by our electorate, which is polarized, but that's what we have to work with Justice is going to be slow and imperfect. That's the way it works, all other options are worse. Don't let the agitators and loud mouths win.
Looks like (O)BLM has declared war on police officers..
Dallas police shooting: 'Black Power group' claims responsibility for police killings and warns of more assassinations to come
mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/dallas-police-shooting-black-power-8378177
Of course, the Left Wingery will publicly denounce such actions...
But they will cheer...
4 Cops Dead, 7 Cops Wounded and they're dancing in front of police officers mocking them
WTF is this?
twitter.com/JaredWyand/status/751293856520478720/video/1
Well, I guess the Democrat Party has found it's "real commitments against the police"
Crooked Hillary Clinton and Hussein Odumbo must be so proud of what they have created... :^/
Michale
Emotions are raw, people have been murdered and terrorized, but not all the facts are in.
Isn't it funny how you want to wait til "all the facts are in" when it's cops who are brutally murdered..
But when a cops justifiably shoots a black person??
You want to hang 'im high right then and there...
There is one word to describe this blatant double standard and hypocrisy....
Pathetic...
Michale
TS,
Wise words...
I'll remind you of them, the next time a cop shoots a black person and the Left Wingery IMMEDIATELY takes to the streets like they did with the Baton Rouge and the Minneapolis shootings..
Where were your "let's wait til the facts are in" words then???
Nowhere.....
Hypocrisy... Pure, blatant, unequivocal hypocrisy...
Michale
I'm with Speak. I also agree with ThStig -- we need to wait until we know the facts.
But the reality in America today is that, as a private citizen, I can't know who the good guys are. The police I see might be good, or they might not be -- they might shoot me as soon as look at me. Meanwhile people can wander around with guns and I can't know if they're intelligent and responsible or goddamned idiots looking for a fight.
Everyone needs to put their guns down; EVERYONE.
I'm with Speak. I also agree with ThStig -- we need to wait until we know the facts.
Like I said.. Representative of the Democrat Party..
Shooting cops is justified...
Everyone needs to put their guns down; EVERYONE.
Fine.. Odumbo's security detail disarms first..
Then all the security protecting Demcorats disarm...
THEN you can come talk to me about me giving up my weapons...
Deal???
Michale
we need to wait until we know the facts.
Why is it ya'all only "need to know the facts" when it's cops who are brutally assassinated???
Hmmmmmm???
Michale
The Police Hunting And Killing Of Black Men Stops Today
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/trey-ellis/the-police-hunting-and-mu_b_10859868.html
The (O)BLM hunting and killing of police officers starts today...
Michale
Anti-Police Rhetoric Turns Deadly
Dallas murders show shameless vilification of police by Obama and the left incites violence
President Obama and the left’s anti-police rhetoric and shameless abuse of racial identity politics has created a deadly climate for law enforcement that led directly to the murder of five police officers in Dallas during a Black Lives Matter protest on Thursday night.
http://www.lifezette.com/polizette/anti-police-rhetoric-turns-deadly/
Odumbo and the Democrats vilification of police officers, of which we see in this very commentary, is a direct cause of what we saw in Dallas last night...
"Yea, I know 5 officers were brutally assassinated last night. But lets talk about the (justified) shooting of two black men last week!!!"
-Weigantians
Michale
http://www.vox.com/2015/5/28/8661977/race-police-officer
"On any given day, in any police department in the nation, 15 percent of officers will do the right thing no matter what is happening. Fifteen percent of officers will abuse their authority at every opportunity. The remaining 70 percent could go either way depending on whom they are working with"
Michale: Which one are you?
Michale: Which one are you?
I am the cop that asks for the source of that ridiculously biased and totally BS stat...
Do you want to talk about the cops that were brutally and cowardly ambushed and assassinated last night???
No???
Didn't think so.. :^/
Michale
"This is not just a black issue. It's not just a Hispanic issue. This is an American issue that we should all care about. All fair minded people should be concerned. It's incumbent on all of us to say we can do better than this. We are better than this.
And if that doesn't work, get together with your (O)BLM friends, ambush and kill as many cops as you can!"
-President Barack Obama
:^/
Ten thousand quatloos says Obama doesn't attend ANY of their funerals....
Michale
Paula,
Since you obviously missed it, let me repeat the question...
Why is it ya'all only "need to know the facts" when it's cops who are brutally assassinated???
Michale
Neilm-
Wow, 7 K$ seems like a pretty good deal!!! My local mid west state school runs a bit over 6 grand per semester. Not a bad school, some really excellent programs, but you have to be choosy. My local private college (Catholic affiliated) is 3X as expensive. It got a major, major bequest from a wealth patron a few years ago, but costs to parents and students have soared. The University Prez just got a pricey new mansion...the old alums are up in arms over it. Admittedly, it's fairly easy to get some tuition remission and scholarship money, but we are still talking baseline tuition just short of Hahvaad. Is it as good a Hahvaad? I would have to say no. One the thing about Ivy League Schools is that they network you for life. Almost as good as getting into a Stone Cutters Lodge!
Lodging at 10 K$ per year? What ever happened to putting 6 people into a dilapidated house with bad heat and worse furniture? (Some of the best days of my life!) Maybe in Manhattan... On the other hand, 208 bucks per month for living seems positively monkish...saffron robes and wooden bowl monkish.
Books, sadly that seems to be the tariff about everywhere.
Getting to my point, if there is one, college costs are mystifying localized. It's outrageously expensive, far outpacing the cost of living. Endowments seem to get bigger and bigger. Cost containment...we don't need no stinkin' cost containment. I feel for you Neilm. I feel for the kid. Dress warmly kid.
“I think the Obama’s administration continued appeasements at the federal level with the Department of Justice, their appeasement of violent criminals, their refusal to condemn movements like Black Lives Matter, actively calling for the death of police officers, that type of thing, all the while blaming police for the problems in this country has led directly to the climate that has made Dallas possible”
-William Johnson, Director, National Association of Police Organizations
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/obama-war-on-cops-police-advocacy-group-225291#ixzz4Dpx0VCTh
To quote Paula...
YEP.......
Every cop's death in this manner, can be laid DIRECTLY at the feet of Hussein Odumbo and the Demcorat Party...
Michale
Michale: you make extraordinarily ridiculous statements like: "Every cop's death in this manner, can be laid DIRECTLY at the feet of Hussein Odumbo and the Demcorat Party…"
Stop being an ass.
Michale: you make extraordinarily ridiculous statements like: "Every cop's death in this manner, can be laid DIRECTLY at the feet of Hussein Odumbo and the Demcorat Party…"
That's just it. It's NOT a ridiculous statement. It's a factual statement...
Saying guns cause gun violence.. THAT is a ridiculous statement...
Stop being an ass.
Stop enabling cop killers and answer the question..
Why do you and Stig et al only worry about "the facts" when it's cops that are brutally assassinated??
When there is a justifiable shooting of a black person by a cop, all of the sudden, you don't need no stinkin' facts..
Why is that???
You can't answer because the honest answer shows ya'all's complicity and racism....
Michale
'Sides... Yer just peeved because you can't blame the cop shootings on Republicans...
Michale
I am honestly surprised..
I figured there would be one ignorant person around here who would claim that assassinating was "understandable" ie justified..
And I was only speaking hyperbole when I said it was representative of the Demcorat way of thinking..
But to learn that all who chimed in actually AGREE that ambushing and assassinating cops is understandable and justified???
Well, I have to admit.. It's gabberflasting....
Michale
From an unlikely source, Red State:
Reasonable people can disagree about the prevalence of police brutality in America, and the extent to which race plays a factor in it. I don't think reasonable people can disagree that excessive police force is punished way less often than it actually happens. And that's the kind of problem that leads to people taking up guns and committing acts of violence - tragically (and with evil intent) against cops who as far as we know have done nothing wrong.
But people's willingness to act rationally and within the confines of the law and the political system is generally speaking directly proportional to their belief that the law and political system will ever punish wrongdoing. And right now, that belief is largely broken, especially in many minority communities.
And it's the blind, uncritical belief that the police never (or only in freak circumstances) do anything wrong that is a major contributing factor to that.
on_h_wolf/2016/07/08/uncomfortable-reason-came-dallas-yesterday/
http://www.redstate.com/leon_h_wolf/2016/07/08/uncomfortable-reason-came-dallas-yesterday/
Paula,
Again, that is mitigation and extenuation..
Let me put it in a way you can comprehend..
Would you accept ANY mitigation or extenuation on behalf of Michael Slager in the shooting of Walter Scott??
Let's say I lay on a whole spiel about what a really bad day Slager had.. His wife left him, his dog got ran over by a car and he found out that that had follicular albinism and was going to die in 6 months...
Would you accept that in mitigation and extenuation of the murder of Walter Scott?? Would you "understand" why Slager brutally murdered Walter Scott??
Of course not...
Because Scott was a black man and Slager was a white cop... So there IS no understanding, there IS no mitigation and there IS no extenuation...
Yet, you and Stig and Speak (and probably everyone else here) want to stand there and say that, because cops sometimes kill black people in the line of duty,that THAT makes the cowardly ambush and brutal assassination of Dallas police "understandable"??
That the COWARDLY and REPREHENSIBLE actions of these scumbags is somehow mitigated or extenuated??
What ARE you smoking!???
Michale
Yet, you and Stig and Speak (and probably everyone else here) want to stand there and say that, because cops sometimes kill black people in the line of duty,that THAT makes the cowardly ambush and brutal assassination of Dallas police "understandable"??
I am open to being corrected...
But I am betting I won't be.....
Michale
Paula [45]
Well quoted.
Here's the thing about cops. We begin with a small number of bad apples, as would be the case given any large group of people. As an aside, I do believe that the culture that surrounds cops leads to more of them becoming bad over time (given knowledge through family members who serve(d)), but that's an aside.
So, one of these bad cops does a bad thing. Not surprising since, by definition, a bad cop is one who does bad things.
The officer's partner looks the other way, doesn't report it, whatever.
I now have two bad cops, not one.
Again, M, yes! There is a difference between understanding and excusing.
I understand why many cops behave in a racist fashion and I don't excuse it. I understand why a whack-job shoots up a black church and I don't excuse it. I understand why other whack-jobs take to a roof and kill cops and I don't excuse it.
The only one I recall truly not understanding was Ted Kaczynski (Unabomber). And that was after reading his manifesto carefully. Never understood that one, but he was a whack-job and that still doesn't excuse him.
Again, understanding is not mitigation.
Here's a better example (don't invoke Godwin, please).
My mother's family is Jewish. To them, Hitler was a monster. There is no need to understand. He and the Nazis were monstrous and that's that.
I agree that they did monstrous things. However, if we don't try and understand, then we don't learn anything that might prevent the next monster.
If you consider a monstrosity unique, then you get the next one (Pol Pot? Idi Amin?).
[49] Speak2
The officer's partner looks the other way, doesn't report it, whatever.
I now have two bad cops, not one.
Exactly.
Similarly, if you are a "responsible gun owner" and also a member of the NRA you are part of the problem. It doesn't matter how responsible YOU are, you are supporting a group that actively promotes gun ownership without responsibility.
Here's the thing about cops. We begin with a small number of bad apples, as would be the case given any large group of people. As an aside, I do believe that the culture that surrounds cops leads to more of them becoming bad over time (given knowledge through family members who serve(d)), but that's an aside.
So, one of these bad cops does a bad thing. Not surprising since, by definition, a bad cop is one who does bad things.
The officer's partner looks the other way, doesn't report it, whatever.
I now have two bad cops, not one.
And you and Paula use your VAST experience in the field to make such BS statements???
Again, M, yes! There is a difference between understanding and excusing.
In this context... No there is not..
I understand why many cops behave in a racist fashion and I don't excuse it.
That right there is part of your problem..
The vast majority of cops don't HAVE any racist problems..
You think that JUST because a white cop shoots a black subject, it HAS to be racism..
The racism is yours.. Not the cops..
Can you PROVE any of your racist accusations??
No you can not...
I agree that they did monstrous things. However, if we don't try and understand, then we don't learn anything that might prevent the next monster.
Your problem is that, in your opinion, ANYONE who doesn't think as you do IS the monster...
Take a ride along with LEO on an inner city patrol.... If you have the courage to challenge your beliefs..
Ya'all spew theory and what you read on line..
I have been there and done that. I know the reality..
All ya'all know is the propaganda...
Michale
Give me a SINGLE fact that proves racism amongst cops is systemic and wide spread...
ONE SINGLE FACT....
Can anyone here do that???
No.....
It's THAT simple....
Cue the BS Political Correct discussions on what the definition of 'is' is...
Michale
Paula {51]
Well said.
Police: Gunman in vehicle shoots at Georgia officer
http://jacksonville.com/news/georgia/2016-07-08/story/police-gunman-vehicle-shoots-georgia-officer
And now it hits a little closer to home...
And it's AMAZING that people here in Weigantia think that it's COPS that are the bad guys... :^/
Michale
I know a number of police officers. There's not a single cop anywhere in NYPD who believes that Louima wasn't abused with a broomstick.
The few I've spoken with who have friends in TX have also said there's not a single Texas cop who believes Sandra Bland committed suicide.
Obviously, there must be some who do, but the vast majority "know" the official story in each case is bunk.
M[55]
Any large group of people, be they priests, rabbis, teachers, doctors, and yes, cops, contains a percentage of bad people. Get over yourself.
However, we must hold the police to a higher standard than most. We, society, arms them and compels citizens to obey them. Given that level of authority and responsibility, they must be held to higher standards than the citizenry, writ large.
Similarly, if you are a "responsible gun owner" and also a member of the NRA you are part of the problem. It doesn't matter how responsible YOU are, you are supporting a group that actively promotes gun ownership without responsibility.
Notice the pushing of an agenda that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the issue at hand..
Nothing about how bad or awful it is that these cops were cowardly ambushed and brutally assassinated..
Just the pushing of a completely ignorant and useless agenda...
As used to it as I am, it still amazes me the depths that people sink to....
Michale
No one is pulled over for the crime of driving while white. DWM or DWB, yes.
When pulled over, Blacks and Latinos are more likely to be required to get out of their cars, searched, and generally messed with.
Every DOJ investigation, whether under Bush or Obama, has found rampant disparate treatment of minority groups in EVERY police force they have investigated.
Any large group of people, be they priests, rabbis, teachers, doctors, and yes, cops, contains a percentage of bad people. Get over yourself.
Of course.. The problem is, you equate the bad .0001% with the entire group...
And you have YET to provide ANY facts to support your accusations...
I'll give you an easy one..
Officer Darren Wilson...
However, we must hold the police to a higher standard than most.
Yes, we do.. AND with that higher standard ALSO comes a higher respect..
You want to hold cops to a higher standard, yet you accuse them of racism without ANY facts to support the accusation and you denigrate them and demonize them at every opportunity...
WITHOUT ANY FACTS....
THAT's the part you don't get...
Michale
“All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.”
? George Orwell, Animal Farm
Wecome to an armed society, today it was the cops, yesterday it was the gays, tommorow it will be someone else. Inbetween, an average of 27 people per day will be murdered and rarely thought about. If you want the guns, you have to live with the consequences.
Look.... It's REAL simple...
You claim cops are racist..
PROVE it...
That's all I am asking...
Give me PROOF....
You can't because the accusation is complete and utter bullshit..
Michale
And once again, the peanut gallery wants to ignore the cowardly ambush and brutal assassinations of police officers and push a completely unrelated and ignorant agenda...
I wish I could be surprised.... :^/
Michale
Holy whodathunkit, Batman, Newt says intelligent stuff.
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/287026-gingrich-white-americans-dont-understand-being-black-in-america
Holy whodathunkit, Batman, Newt says intelligent stuff.
TRANSLATION: Newt says something I agree with, therefore it's "intelligent"....
Jeeezus, could yer bigotry be any more transparent???
Michale
It's funny that the Left Wingery goes on and on about how color doesn't matter, yet get HYSTERICAL about differentiating people by color...
*I* am completely color blind...
I guess ya'all can't understand such a concept.. :^/
Michale
I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.
-Dr Martin Luther King
Dr King would be ashamed of the Left Wingery in the here and now....
To ya'all, *NOTHING* matters but the color of the skin....
Michale...
{56-57] Speak2: Yep!
However, we must hold the police to a higher standard than most. We, society, arms them and compels citizens to obey them. Given that level of authority and responsibility, they must be held to higher standards than the citizenry, writ large.
Especially!
Cops: Tennessee shooter targeted white victims, similar to Dallas ambush
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/cops-tennessee-shooter-targeted-white-victims-similar-to-dallas-ambush/
And the response from the Left Wingery regarding the racism???
{{{chirrrrppppp}}} {{{cccchhhhiiiirrrrrrpppppp}}}
Ya'all don't REALLY care about racism...
Ya'all just want to use BS racism from LEOs as a political bludgeon to beat political opponents over the head with...
One of the few things that the Left Wingery is actually transparent about....
Inadvertently, I am sure...
Michale
Paula,
{56-57] Speak2: Yep!
However, we must hold the police to a higher standard than most. We, society, arms them and compels citizens to obey them. Given that level of authority and responsibility, they must be held to higher standards than the citizenry, writ large.
Especially!
Fine..
Then give them the higher respect..
Can you do that??
Of course you can't..
Michale
Michale: Of course the vast majority of cops are good and fine and etc. Of course it's horrible and wrong that police were slain last night. Everyone but you here understands that we all think that -- it doesn't need to be said, not even to satisfy you. It is a base value that we have.
However, there are also bad cops and the only way they can continue to be bad cops is because the "good" cops look the other way and the police internal disciplinary measures are inadequate. Period. In the Louisiana shooting the two cops who killed the guy had been investigated 5 times previously for abuses.
In a free society you cannot allow ANYONE or ANY group to have unfettered power like that. It always leads to abuses.
Separately, the gun control issue is completely pertinent because the shooter was able to get his hands on a repeating weapon, and note, even the fact that he was shooting at ARMED police he was able to get 11 people. Gunnies always assert that all we need is for people to be armed and then they can't be hurt/and can automatically protect others -- bullshit.
But so long as the good gunnies go along with the bullshit, this stuff will happen.
I don't have guns. I'm just a bystander here. It is the armed people -- cops and citizens -- who have to step up and take sides. Are they for justice, fairness, safety? Or not. You can't have it both ways anymore.
26 police killed so far in 2016, up 44% from 2015
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/07/08/nationwide-police-shooting-deaths/86861082/
Does anyone here care???
Nope....
Hussein Odumbo's political agenda is MUCH more important..
Sad....
Michale
Wow, awesome, Paula [71].
Some people have a problem with the "base values" concept b/c in their "base values," not all people count the same when it comes to deserving of society's respect.
Some people have a problem with the "base values" concept b/c in their "base values," not all people count the same when it comes to deserving of society's respect.
Your "base values" condone the brutal murder of police officers who put their lives on the line each and every time they put on the uniform..
You are absolutely correct..
I don't share THOSE "base values"...
But thank you for proving my point..
You demand a "HIGHER STANDARD" from police officers, but you aren't willing to give them the respect due a piece of furniture..
I don't think I have ever been DISGUSTED with a member of this community..... Until now...
Michale
However, there are also bad cops
And there are also bad black people..
Funny how you ignore that part of the equation..
In the Louisiana shooting the two cops who killed the guy had been investigated 5 times previously for abuses.
Well, I am sure glad we are waiting for ALL THE FACTS to come in before we condemn....
Thank you for proving my point for me..
You only want to "wait for facts" when it's cops that are brutally murdered...
You don't need no stinkin facts when it's an armed scumbag who has threatened people with a gun.. Oh, who happens to be black...
Like I said.. Disgusted...
Michale
Now THIS is good to hear: http://washingtonmonthly.com/2016/07/08/some-things-you-need-to-know-about-the-dallas-police-department/
You're disgusted Michale? I can live with that.
[73]Speak2: thanks! and Some people have a problem with the "base values" concept b/c in their "base values," not all people count the same when it comes to deserving of society's respect.
Yep!
Michael,
Please quit blaming "Left-Wingery" for doing anything! In fact, quit even mentioning "Left-Wingery" because it doesn't truly exist and anytime you are called out on a comment you make regarding it, you use the "it's just hyperbole" defense! I can't consider myself to be a liberal, as does my husband! Do you honestly think that he, a police officer, or I, the spouse of an officer, are really taking an anti-police stance???!!!
Speak2,
Yes, there are "bad cops", but those are officers who are knowingly doing things that they should not be doing. The incidents that make the news do not involve cops who were doing anything but acting in the moment. These aren't "bad cops". They may have made a bad judgement call, but they are not "bad cops". They may be the best person in the world, but they screwed up this one time. There is a difference between corruption and negligence, although you would never know it the way the police are talked about in the press and by people.
The entire "good cops not reporting bad cops" is an argument that sounds great, until you actually look at it more closely! Tell me, are you going to risk you job and possible jail time to cover up the illegal actions of a co-worker if you do not benefit by doing so in any way? And in most of these shootings, there isn't any thing that "good cops" aren't telling in their reports to investigators. A lie can do damage that taints evidence that might actually clear an officer of wrong doing! The police know that one bad cop makes them all look bad, so why in the world would they want to allow bad ones to go unpunished?
Sorry, it should say that I consider myself a liberal, and my husband considers himself to be one as well!
Paula [71]
Investigations that are founded are the only ones that an officer should be judged on. My husband was investigated because a local woman claimed he was hitting on her. She had thrown herself at him, left him a letter with a lip smack of lipstick on it and covered in perfume that she left him, and he just ignored her advances -- but kept all of the notes she left him. The detective who did the internal said all the blood left her face when he told her that he was gay and that the investigation showed absolutely no wrong-doing on his part. As crazy as the accusations were, the investigation has still hurt Devon's (my hubby) reputation. Now, anytime a person takes issue with Devon's actions, this investigation is thrown out there as if just the accusation of wrong doing is equated to actual wrong doing by him!
Here is a piece by Frank Bruni in the NYTimes that outlines, as eloquently as anyone has, the path forward for America, especially in the wake of the violence of the past few days, and sets out a good foundation for the kind of serious and meaningful public discourse that needs to take place among Americans of all walks of life:
"We don’t have any ready answers for how to end this cycle of bloodshed, this grip of terror, these heart-rending images from Louisiana and Minnesota and Texas of a country in desperate trouble, with so much pain to soothe, rage to exorcise and injustice to confront." ... Frank Bruni
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/10/opinion/how-america-heals-after-dallas.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region®ion=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region&_r=0
Listen: Tell me, are you going to risk you job and possible jail time to cover up the illegal actions of a co-worker if you do not benefit by doing so in any way? And there is the crux: the cover-ups happen because people DO benefit -- even if it's simply that other cops don't turn on them. They benefit by being able to go on with their own lives, avoiding the fate of whistle-blowers. It keeps them from having to weigh the damage that might be done to the lives of the other cop. It keeps them from risking their own careers.
Reports have come out about a black site in Chicago where cops tortured people. Reports come out almost constantly about various cover-ups, etc. Sorry, but they do. People knew that shit was going on. People know it all the time.
speak2 -56-I know a number of police officers. There's not a single cop anywhere in NYPD who believes that Louima wasn't abused with a broomstick.
The few I've spoken with who have friends in TX have also said there's not a single Texas cop who believes Sandra Bland committed suicide
I can sympathize with the situation your husband endured -- it's a problem. The solution probably IS body cameras coupled with changes in how cops are treated within their own systems.
I can agree that police just crack at times and do something regrettable -- but since the records show those things seem to happen consistently to minority groups and the poor, well, then I think you can't fall back on the "one bad apple" defense.
Listen,
Would your husband be open to joining the conversation here, time permitting?
[82]Elizabeth: That is a good column.
And I do want to add that in there, as well as other reports I've read today, the Dallas Police were doing everything right. The protest was peaceful and the protesters and police were working together. Then a shooter came along and screwed it up for everyone.
So we're at this place in time when a lot of dirty laundry has come out, and efforts are being made on many levels but there are still bad actors out there because long-festering problems don't get resolved overnight. So the efforts have to continue.
Listen: Now, anytime a person takes issue with Devon's actions, this investigation is thrown out there as if just the accusation of wrong doing is equated to actual wrong doing by him!
Which is a terrible thing. And it happens every day to Hillary Clinton :-)
But I get you.
Heh.
Elizabeth Miller,
Yeah, I think he'd be happy to talk about the job he does and the police culture as he sees it today.
A little background on us: Ten years ago, I lost my job as a 911 call receiver after i reported a supervisor for forcing me to falsify a police incident based on the race of the suspect. She had me enter a call of a black man panhandling for change as a strong-armed robbery because (a) it would get officers there quicker, and (b) because "those type of people" usually are armed. I kept pressing for an investigation into the supervisors actions, which led to the call center's director claiming I had made comments that were threatening. I was sent for a psych evaluation and was found unfit for duty by a psychiatrist that was known for finding anyone a department wanted to get rid of as being "unfit". We even have an email where the psychiatrist says that she did not have enough to find me "unfit" and wanted to know if they could drug test me, but they did not and I somehow still was "unfit for duty". The psychiatrist soon after this fled the state as there was a warrant for her arrest issued by the Health and Human Services dept. My partner, who was an officer at one of the department's that the call center covered was forced to resign after he spoke out in defense of me and tried to highlight the misconduct of the call centers administration. He was a highly decorated officer who had worked closely with the call center for years and had no blemishes on his record, yet once he stood up for me he had two internals started on him at the behest of the call center within two months! Luckily, he was able to find work with our local police department almost instantly. I tell ya'll all of this to let you know that while we firmly are supportive of the police in general, we are not blindly loyal to the profession and are quick to call out misconduct when we discover it. We know what it is like to be a minority and to have the system turn against us simply for doing what was right.
[88] Listen: your story is harrowing, but it also illuminates, I think, reasons why cops would choose not to report bad actors -- look at the repercussions!
Right there you have shown an example of small-scale "corruption" and cover-up. It is to your credit and your partners that you fought back.
Listen (sorry if you've given us your name and I just don't know it),
I appreciate the background.
And, I've actually been thinking a lot about how difficult it apparently is sometimes for members of the law enforcement community to stand up against any form of misconduct within their ranks. I thought about Frank Serpico and the kind of police corruption he stood up against and the horrible consequences he faced for doing the right thing.
As someone who has no personal knowledge of what it is like to be part of the fraternity of law enforcement, it is hard for me to understand why more (or any?) police officers don't publically condemn misconduct in their midst. I guess what I'm really asking here is wouldn't the relationship between police and community be improved if the relatively few "bad cops" were called out more often by their fellow officers who take their oath to serve and protect seriously. If I was a cop, I would hate to be painted with a broad brush because of the bad behavior of a few of my cohorts. I would like to think that I would stand up against that behavior, even in the face of police unions and associations that often seem to prevent this kind of open and honest communication. I hope that makes some sort of sense!
It's so important for the police and the diverse communities they so valiantly serve to engage in sincere communication and to appreciate the challenges that each are facing, to acknowledge that there are challenges and to work seriously together to find solutions. I don't know what all the answers are but I think it has to start with open communication and a healthy form of public discourse that discourages and calls out the kind of divisive rhetoric that only makes things worse.
That's why I hope your husband would participate here when and if he has time because his thoughts on all of this would be very much appreciated.
Listen: Do you believe that was the first time this supervisor did what she did? If it wasn't, doesn't that mean others didn't speak up?
[90] Elizabeth: yes.
I think the good guys would have to join up with each other -- no single person should have to be a martyr. Safety in numbers.
Paula,
At no time in history have the police been more transparent in their operations than today. Thanks to the body cameras worn by officers, the sheer volume of recording devices found everywhere we go, citizen review boards, and the national public records laws enacted in each of the 50 states, the police have become the most transparent agencies in government today. Not to say that it cannot be better, but we are much more aware of how departments work than we were 50, 35, and even 20 years ago.
I always caution people from taking one or two instances of corruption and painting the entire police profession as being culpable for allowing it to happen. There is no "epidemic" of police misconduct or police violence towards our citizens, no matter how many times we are told that by the media. Police officers - over 770,000 in the country - respond to literally millions of calls for service every single week without incident. Even with two occurring in two days, officer involved shootings happen less frequently than people being struck by lightning. And when officers violate the law in a bad shooting, they are arrested, charged and prosecuted for their crimes. The Chicago police had a real problem within their ranks. Corruption seems to be the norm in their state government, but changes are being made. Officers who are found to have been dishonest by their departments must be placed on what is called a "Brady List" which informs defense attorneys if that officer is going to be testifying during a case. If you cannot testify in court, you really cannot be a police officer anymore as you are worthless to the prosecutor.
Indeed.
Elizabeth,
I'm Russ. The police do speak up when officers do wrong, as it is usually only when another officer reports them that the "bad cops" are caught. And here's the challenge: can you look at a group of officers and tell which ones are good cops and which ones are bad cops? Neither can they! Police officers who are breaking the law do not do it openly! And when you have the people being arrested for crimes accusing every officer involved of doing something illegal time after time, it gets to the point that accusations have to be pretty specific to be taken seriously. The police are slow to speak out against supposed misconduct committed by other officers until all the evidence is made known because they know how easily it is to be falsely accused of misconduct. The press wants them to speak out against misconduct before it is ever officially determined whether any misconduct actually ever occurred! That is the problem with a society that becomes used to expecting instant gratification in every aspect of their lives -- we forget the importance of being patient. Also, the department's typically have policies that prevent officers from speaking about any cases that are on-going. An officer's statement against corruption will be used falsely as an indication that corruption actually occurred. Sadly, the media knows that scandal and drama fuel their profits, so giving an accurate and unbiased portrayal of what occurred Is becoming more and more rare in these instances.
Paula,
No, it was not the supervisors first time of being dishonest, but it was the first time she was so blatantly obvious when she slipped up by making the comments she made to me. She also was a homophobe, and had been accused of bullying gay employees on more than one occasion. Honestly, I think she had to have had some dirt on the Director that prevented her from being fired, because as soon as the call center got a new director, she was terminated not long after. Others had accused her of misconduct, and she had been disciplined three times for her dishonesty -- yet she kept her job and I was let go! Sadly, law enforcement and fire departments haven't been the quickest to accept homosexual's in their ranks.
[95] Sadly, law enforcement and fire departments haven't been the quickest to accept homosexual's in their ranks.
No. Sigh. It sucks.
Please quit blaming "Left-Wingery" for doing anything! In fact, quit even mentioning "Left-Wingery" because it doesn't truly exist and anytime you are called out on a comment you make regarding it, you use the "it's just hyperbole" defense! I can't consider myself to be a liberal, as does my husband! Do you honestly think that he, a police officer, or I, the spouse of an officer, are really taking an anti-police stance???!!!
The few exceptions do not negate the vast majority..
I calls 'em as I sees 'em...
The entire "good cops not reporting bad cops" is an argument that sounds great, until you actually look at it more closely!
What!?? Are you suggesting that these people ACTUALLY LOOK AT THE FACTS!???
Shurley, you jest....
Michale
Paula,
You're disgusted Michale? I can live with that.
I am sure you can...
It's becoming harder and harder for me to do so...
Michale
Speak,
The few I've spoken with who have friends in TX have also said there's not a single Texas cop who believes Sandra Bland committed suicide
I call complete and utter BULLSHIT on this one..
There is absolutely NO FACTUAL evidence to support the idea that Bland did not commit suicide...
NONE.. ZERO... ZILCH... NADA....
NOW you are just pulling crap out of your ass..
And this type of BS proves the ignorance of your police attitudes...
WHY would correction cops want to kill Sandra Bland???
You people are SO DESPERATE to vilify cops, you'll say any BS claim, no matter how utterly unfounded and un-factual it is..
"Disgusted" doesn't come close to describing it..
Michale
Russ,
So, what can be done to root out the bad cops. Does the hiring process need to be looked at?
I couldn't tell a bad cop from a good cop just by looking at them, of course. But, if I worked side-by-side with one of them for a reasonable period of time I think I could assess how they might behave in certain situations and I could see how they do behave in certain situations.
In other words, in the instances we have seen of late, where it looks very much like some police officers did not know how to de-escalate a situation, I wonder if this was the first indication of bad behavior or bad practices that they have exhibited since joining the force.
Listen,
The few exceptions do not negate the vast majority..
I calls 'em as I sees 'em...
Having said that, let me say this..
Fine, if you don't want to be counted in with the Left Wingery, then take a stand..
SAY SOMETHING when ignorant people like Speak, Paula and TheStig make totally RIDICULOUS claims that assassinating police officers is "understandable" or justified or should be mitigated or extenuated..
Silence gives assent, my friend..
If you don't want to be counted with the Left Wingery in this issue, then show me you are NOT with the Left Wingery on this issue...
I'll be happy to differentiate you and yours from the Left Wingery that hates cops and dances in the streets when cops are brutally murdered..
Just give me a reason...
Michale
In other words, in the instances we have seen of late, where it looks very much like some police officers did not know how to de-escalate a situation,
OR......
Or maybe police officers DO know how to de-escalate a situation, are TRAINED to de-escalate a situation and the situation in question simply required the response that the officer gave...
So, what can be done to root out the bad cops.
First and foremost, the Left Wingery needs to get rid of the idea that a cop is bad, JUST because a black person was shot...
You want to get cops to police their own?? Quit fostering the idea that ALL cops are bad...
Michale
Police say officers have been targeted in Missouri, Georgia and Tennessee
http://fox2now.com/2016/07/08/police-say-officers-have-been-targeted-in-missouri-georgia-and-tennessee/
It's all "understandable".... Nothing to worry about.. :^/
The Democrat Party platform is alive and well...
One sure way to guarantee a President Trump is for the Democrat Party to continue supporting attacks on police....
WHAT DO WE WANT!!!????
DEAD COPS!!!
WHEN DO WE WANT THEM!!!
NOW!!!!
-(ONLY) BLACK LIVES MATTER
How do ya'all like yer (O)BLM now??? :^/
Michale
Michale,
Quit fostering the idea that ALL cops are bad...
You're more defensive than Hillary! Sheesh.
Quit fostering the idea that ALL cops are bad...
You're more defensive than Hillary! Sheesh.
On this issue, yer darn tootin'....
Look at Darren Wilson and Ray Tessig and tell me I don't have any cause to be...
It just chaps my ass that lusers will hysterically scream and yell instantly whenever a cop justifiably shoots a black person..
But when 11 cops are cowardly ambushed and brutally shot down, these same lusers will say, "Let's wait til all the facts are in before we condemn these likely justified shootings..."
Who WOULDN'T be pissed off by that???
Well, the Left Wingery (N.E.N.) but that's because they are part of the problem..
Michale
http://www.breitbart.com/2016-presidential-race/2016/07/08/hillary-clinton-blame-whites-cops-shooting-deaths-young-black-men/
Hillary fully embraces the Demcorat Party platform that cop killings are justified and that it's white people who have to change...
Keep thinking that, Hillary.. You'll lose...
"Nobody likes you. Everybody hates you. You're gonna lose. Smile, ya fuck."
-Bruce Willis, THE LAST BOYSCOUT
Michale
Liz,
Since you are the only one here that can address this issue reasonably and without hysteria, let me ask you..
I made this point to Speak2 above but, of course, he ignored it because he had no logical or rational response..
In any given year, police killing black males accounts for .08% of all black male killings..
Black males killing black males accounts for 96% of all black male killings..
In other words, in a year where 10,000 black males are killed.....
EIGHT of them are at the hands of police, virtually ALL of them ruled justified...
NINE THOUSAND SIX HUNDRED of those 10,000 deaths are at the hands of other black males..
Now, given these facts, given the fact that EIGHT black males die at the hands of police, JUSTIFIABLY and the fact that over NINE THOUSAND black males die at the hands of other black males illegally.....
Is the cop side of the equation REALLY a priority???
Or is it, as logic suggests, only a political issue that serves ONLY to further enslave the black population of the US??
Michale
To put the matter succinctly...
ANYONE who thinks that cops are the problem when it comes to black deaths is either ignorant of the facts or pushing a bigoted partisan agenda...
Michale
Liz,
I honestly believe that bad cops get weeded out very early in their careers these days. One thing I would encourage everyone to do to help the relationships between the police and the community is to sign up and do a ride-a-long with your local police one evening or weekend. It's a great way to see firsthand what goes on in an officer's typical work day, and to talk to them personally about what it means to them to be an officer.
And I agree with Michael that an officer isn't a "bad cop" just because he is involved in a shooting. Michael, I do comment when I disagree with things said on here, and I haven't read comments from anyone that said the police in Dallas deserved what happened to them.
A big part of the problem with how the police are viewed in this country stems from how the press chooses to report officer involved shootings. The articles are written as if the police are guilty of murder before the facts are even in. Huff Post's headlines for the Castile shooting read something like, "Man killed because of broken taillight", completely ignoring the fact that Castile was reaching into his shirt to get his ID when he told the officer that he was armed. The traffic stop had nothing to do with it. The media seems to believe that any criticism of the actions committed by the deceased is "Victim blaming" even when that "blame" is justified. I've read multiple articles claiming that Castile was "unarmed", even though they mention (usually at the very end of the article) that he had told the officer he had a gun. The press used photos of Trayvon Martin, Tamir Rice, and Michael Brown that were five years old or older in order to play up the story that the police had shot children.
The press ignored the fact that two officers had tried to serve Eric Garner with the arrest warrant the day before his death, but that he had resisted arrest and the officers chose not to engage Garner because they knew with his size that things could go south real quickly and someone could get seriously injured, or worse. They never mentioned that the reason that there were over a dozen officers in the video was because the police had hoped that the show of force would have convinced Garner that resistance was futile, but also so if he did resist, they would have enough manpower to force compliance with as little risk of injury to all parties involved as possible.
The press completely ignored the content of the video of Michael Brown committing strong-armed robbery just minutes before he encountered Officer Wilson and claimed it was released by the police to discredit Brown's character. The video gave great insight into Brown's frame of mind and his willingness to use violence and his size to get what he wanted, but the press largely ignored it. However, they were more than happy to guess at Officer Wilson's frame of mind based on his being employed at a police department three years earlier that had disbanded because of issues not related to Officer Wilson. They even tried to blame him when one news outlet released a photo that they wrongly claimed showed Officer Wilson in the hospital with injuries! And once all of the evidence was released and it was very clear that Officer Wilson was justified in his shooting of Michael Brown, the press still treated the story as if Wilson was a murderer. It didn't matter that Brown had attacked Wilson or that he attempted to disarm the officer. Maybe if the press reported these stories in an unbiased fashion, the general public might not be so outraged and those police officers in Dallas would not have had to die!
Listen,
I honestly believe that bad cops get weeded out very early in their careers these days. One thing I would encourage everyone to do to help the relationships between the police and the community is to sign up and do a ride-a-long with your local police one evening or weekend. It's a great way to see firsthand what goes on in an officer's typical work day, and to talk to them personally about what it means to them to be an officer.
I encourage the EXACT same things..
I also encourage Weigantians to find in any of the local LEO offices have a Patrol Simulator where they can actually step into the shoes of an officer on patrol...
I would be willing to wager a million quatloos that they cannot do a tour of duty without killing an innocent or being killed themselves..
One of my favorite books on this type of issue is SIGNAL ZERO..
If you haven't read it, I highly recommend it..
And I agree with Michael that an officer isn't a "bad cop" just because he is involved in a shooting.
I know, right?
People seem to think that cops have god-like powers that they should be able to diffuse ANY and ALL situations without resorting to force..
What they don't realize is that a cop can do EVERYTHING right and it still devolves into use of deadly force..
It's a concept that NO ONE can fully understand, save those who have been there and done that..
Michael, I do comment when I disagree with things said on here, and I haven't read comments from anyone that said the police in Dallas deserved what happened to them.
You may be incensed, but Dallas is an obvious response to the violations of the social compact.
-Speak2
That's close enough to piss me off...
A big part of the problem with how the police are viewed in this country stems from how the press chooses to report officer involved shootings. The articles are written as if the police are guilty of murder before the facts are even in. Huff Post's headlines for the Castile shooting read something like, "Man killed because of broken taillight", completely ignoring the fact that Castile was reaching into his shirt to get his ID when he told the officer that he was armed. The traffic stop had nothing to do with it. The media seems to believe that any criticism of the actions committed by the deceased is "Victim blaming" even when that "blame" is justified. I've read multiple articles claiming that Castile was "unarmed", even though they mention (usually at the very end of the article) that he had told the officer he had a gun. The press used photos of Trayvon Martin, Tamir Rice, and Michael Brown that were five years old or older in order to play up the story that the police had shot children.
Well said.. And dead on balls accurate...
In the case of Castile, he should have had his hands on the dash, tell the officer he is armed and then ask, "What do you want me to do?"...
Whenever I am pulled over (it happens occasionally) I instruct everyone in the car with me (if any) to put their hands on the dash/seat in front of them. When the LEO approaches, I say I am a retired officer, I have a weapon in a belt holster, my shield and ID is in my back pocket. What do you want me to do??
Reaching one's hands into a place where an officer cannot see WHILE telling said officer you are armed???
You might as well be wearing a PLEASE SHOOT ME hat... :^/
The press reports these stories in such a manner because they are ideologically bent to support the Democrat Party..
The Democrat Party needs these types of stories to justify their biased and bigoted agenda..
And so it goes and so it goes...
Michale
Michael, I do comment when I disagree with things said on here, and I haven't read comments from anyone that said the police in Dallas deserved what happened to them.
You may be incensed, but Dallas is an obvious response to the violations of the social compact.
-Speak2
That's close enough to piss me off...
To elaborate.... It's a justification...
It's a statement of mitigation and/or extenuation...
It's saying, "It's terrible that 11 cops were gunned down.. BUT....."
There is NO 'but' after that sentence.. ANY 'but' attempts to justify, mitigate or excuse the actions..
It's like saying, "9/11 was really horrible... BUT....."
Michale
The traffic stop had nothing to do with it. The media seems to believe that any criticism of the actions committed by the deceased is "Victim blaming" even when that "blame" is justified. I've read multiple articles claiming that Castile was "unarmed", even though they mention (usually at the very end of the article) that he had told the officer he had a gun.
And what's even MORE sickening and pathetic is that if Castile had been white, there would have been no question that it was a good shoot and the media would never have even bothered to report it..
Michale
And regarding the Castile shooting??
My first reaction was, "My gods, the girlfriend is RECORDING instead of helping her boyfriend!!".
Obviously she's thinking, "I just hit the lottery!!!!" :^/
Michale
[109] Listen: and there you have pretty much shown why people like me hold the police at fault. What you just did in that comment was present a series of justifications for the killings of people because the police were scared -- and in cases where the victims were not being violent when events began and were not guilty of violent crimes. They weren't waving guns around and shooting the people.
The police arrived and decided that each of these people could be killed for being scary, or for trying to escape. The police become judge, jury and executioners, and, according to you, out of fear for the their own personal safety. They kill rather then let the guys go to be captured another day. They kill rather than attempt to de-escalate the situation or use less than fatal force.
In the case of the young man in the car you have a damned if you do damned if you don't. He informs the police he has a gun in an effort to avoid escalating the situation. Then he is killed.
You are painting a picture of police who need to get the hell out of policing. You are painting a picture of police that makes me fear them more because they sound like a bunch of PTSD sufferers running around with guns. Which they may be. Which I can sympathize with. But your descriptions and justifications only make me more leery of police, not less.
113] Man, you are an ass. You are such an ass. Look at your thought process. That was your first thought? Or was it Sean Hannity's? Is it better or worse that you don't have original vile thoughts, you just parrot other people's vile thoughts?
Also, your continued defense of unrestricted gun ownership makes you a cop-killing enabler. Your strident desire to fill America with guns contributes to police paranoia and police risk.
] Man, you are an ass. You are such an ass. Look at your thought process.
Fine.. You want to look at thought processes?? Let's look at this moron's thought process...
"Oh shit!!! My boyfriend is being shot by a cop!! Let me film it so I can immediately post it to Facebook!!"
Are you seriously wanting to talk about *MY* thought processes??
I can ASSURE you of one thing. If my wife was being shot by police, the last thing... THE VERY LAST THING I would be thinking about is filming it so I can post it to Facebook...
Also, your continued defense of unrestricted gun ownership makes you a cop-killing enabler
If we were talking about gun control, you would have a point.
But we're not, so you don't..
We're talking about the justifiable use of deadly force..
Do you have any ACTUAL facts that indicate these two instances were not justified??
Any facts at all??
Besides the fact that the perpetrator was black, I mean...
The FACTS clearly show that both the LA shoot and the MN shoot were good shoots...
It's only because the subjects were black that we're even discussing it...
Michale
In the case of the young man in the car you have a damned if you do damned if you don't. He informs the police he has a gun in an effort to avoid escalating the situation. Then he is killed.
If those were the facts, then you would have a point..
But their not, so you don't...
The subject informed the officer he was armed *AS HE WAS REACHING INTO HIS SHIRT*
What the hell would you expect the officer to do?? As far as the officer was concerned, he was seconds away from being shot and killed..
This was a good shoot...
Michale
. They weren't waving guns around and shooting the people.
Actually, the LA shooting, it was reported that the subject WAS waving a gun around..
But why let a little thing like THE FACTS get in the way of a good hysterical rant...
Michale
Seriously, Paula...
Find out if your local LEO station has a patrol simulator that's available for the public...
If not, sign up for a ride-along with an inner-city patrol...
THEN come back and complain how it's COPS who are the enemy...
Michale
I don't say "cops are the enemy". I say "Cops are empowered, and armed and therefore must be held to a higher standard than normal citizens." I say "cops must be held accountable when they blow it, just like everyone else." I am not punitive in my thinking either -- I don't feel cops should be excessively punished nor that the dangers they endured don't count. But the dangers they endure can't turn into a justification for everything and anything.
I also say that having guns everywhere puts police in more danger and makes it impossible to tell who's dangerous and who isn't.
I also say having guns everywhere means citizens can't know who's dangerous and who isn't.
I also say having all sorts of arms in hand could not stop the Dallas shooter from killing 4 and injuring 7. It is a flawed premise that you are too stubborn to admit is wrong.
I also say that people of color consistently meet treatment by police that would absolutely not be tolerated by white people for any length of time. And you are too much of a entitled clot to admit this or attempt to understand the inevitable ramifications.
I also say the police have to be willing to recognize where they've gone off the rails in order to fix this -- as, it appears, the Dallas PD has done and is doing. Good for them.
I'll finish by saying the word "hysterical" applies to you, not me.
I don't say "cops are the enemy". I say "Cops are empowered, and armed and therefore must be held to a higher standard than normal citizens."
And I completely agree..
And with that held to higher standard, it naturally follows that they should ALSO have a higher level of deference and respect..
But you don't want that..
You want to hold them to a higher standard, but still treat them like dirt when they do their job...
I also say that having guns everywhere puts police in more danger and makes it impossible to tell who's dangerous and who isn't.
And what do you base that on???
Nothing but your political ideology..
Fact is, people can be dangerous with or without guns..
It's something that COPS know, understand and train for.. It's an instinct they have...
I also say having guns everywhere means citizens can't know who's dangerous and who isn't.
The same could be said for ANY item that can be used as a weapon..
I also say that people of color consistently meet treatment by police that would absolutely not be tolerated by white people for any length of time.
And you say that without ANY facts to back it up...
THAT's my point...
I'll finish by saying the word "hysterical" applies to you, not me.
I am not the one trying to justify cop-killings...
Michale
Actually, the LA shooting, it was reported that the subject WAS waving a gun around..
You forgot to address this fact...
How come??
Michale
Michale: I am not the one trying to justify cop-killings...
Neither am I. That's your spin because you can't actually have a conversation that isn't binary. Most things aren't "either-or" no matter how much you insist they are.
Neither am I. That's your spin because you can't actually have a conversation that isn't binary. Most things aren't "either-or" no matter how much you insist they are.
I disagree..
When it comes to cop-killings, things ARE binary.. Things ARE either-or.....
The fact that you can't see that is the foundation of your problem..
Michale
And if you are thinking that I am taking this personally, you are damn-skippy dead on ballz accurate..
When cops are murdered, I *DO* take it personally...
"Being a cop is not what we do, it's who we are."
So, yea... It's personal...
Michale
Michale: And with that held to higher standard, it naturally follows that they should ALSO have a higher level of deference and respect..
Um, no.
All humans deserve basic respect as a starting point.
Positional respect, which is what you are demanding, is a function of politeness and a reflection of some societal norms.
But true respect is always earned and cannot be demanded.
And over-emphasis on positional respect is harmful -- it results in things like priests getting away with molesting children for years. It enables bad apples to get away with abuses for long times because it discourages people from looking past the position to the person and their acts.
I'm prepared to offer police-people provisional respect out of the gate, but after that it's down to them and what they do and how they do it.
"Being a cop is not what we do, it's who we are."
So?
It's personal to you? So?
Do you mean the rest of the world owes you something for having that feeling? While you, in turn, owe nothing to anyone else? Your feelings are to be elevated over those of others? Why?
And when we talk about respect, let's also talk about the utter, stunning and really ugly lack of respect you routinely exhibit towards black people. You always automatically condemn them; you refer to them as "thugs" and you repeat sickening FOX statements like accusing the girlfriend of thinking she "won the lotto" when she filmed what went down. It's incomprehensible to you that she, having lived life as a black women, had learned that unless she documented the event it could be twisted or covered up.
No, you really have no credibility on the topic of respect.
Michale,
First off, I think it is reasonable for people to be horrified by the police shootings in Baton Rouge and Minnesota AND be horrified by the murder of five officers in Dallas.
Secondly, I believe it is reasonable that people want and need to know what exactly happened in Baton Rouge and Minnesota, why police officers acted the way they did in both circumstances and, to wait and see what the investigation into both incidents will conclude. I don't think we should pre-judge, based on our very limited knowledge of all of the facts, whether or not the shootings of these citizens were justified.
It is also reasonable for people to ask if there was any other way that these incidents could have unfolded differently in terms of the actions of the police and victims that might have resolved the situations without ending in people being killed by the police, whether the killing was justified or not.
I think it is wrong for us not to consider the disparity in police interventions and interactions between various racial groups and wrong not to ask why that may be the case and, if so, what should be done about it.
I think it is reprehensible for people, like former representative Joe Walsh, to blame the president of the United States for the death of five brave officers in Dallas, slain in the line of duty. If there is to be a nation-wide positive reaction to all of this in terms of dealing with any of the challenges facing your country today, then there needs to be a pubic discourse that is respectful and informative.
Finally, it is very heartening to see the sympathetic and empathetic public response to the murder of the Dallas and transit police officers -first responders who were doing their duty to protect citizens, even as those citizens were protesting against the actions of other police officers. Perhaps we can all learn a lot from the city of Dallas and from the police department that serves and protects it.
Listen,
And I agree with Michael that an officer isn't a "bad cop" just because he is involved in a shooting.
I have to say that I don't know anyone here or anywhere else who would not agree with you and Michale and your husband that an officer isn't a bad cop just because he is involved in a shooting. I like to think we are all far more sophisticated than that.
A big part of the problem with how the police are viewed in this country stems from how the press chooses to report officer involved shootings.
I can agree with that and I would go further. I think a big part of the problem, unless I'm mistaken, is that most police departments don't keep statistics on officer involved shootings nor does the Justice Department.
I think it is reasonable to ask why, when the media reports about police involved shootings, the officer is most often a white male and the citizen is a black male. Are there no incidents of black officers involved in shooting white citizens, black officers shooting black citizens, white officers shooting white citizens? Does this highlight something that should concern the police, you and your fellow citizens?
Michale et al.,
The following is an article about a report by the Centre For Policing Equity which was released on Friday - haven't seen or perused it yet - dealing with use of force by police and the racial disparities that are seen from the minimum use of force to the maximum where shootings are involved.
Apparently, the Justice Department has been trying to get the cooperation of police departments across the country to assist in compiling national statistics on use of force by police. While I can imagine why police would not want to share their use of force reports, I can't understand why this sharing of information wouldn't be provided if it was collected in a kind of anonymous manner, just focusing on the numbers and not the names of the officers and citizens involved.
Anyway, I thought this might be an interesting read. I hope it's worthy of discussion and not just discarded as coming from another think tank in New York ...
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/08/us/study-supports-suspicion-that-police-use-of-force-is-more-likely-for-blacks.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=span-ab-lede-package-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
Michale: And with that held to higher standard, it naturally follows that they should ALSO have a higher level of deference and respect..
Um, no.
And THAT is why you are wrong..
You demand higher standards but you refuse to give higher deference..
No, you really have no credibility on the topic of respect.
Says the person completely bigoted against Republicans and cops. :D
Michale
news reports are always crafted to maximize narratives of conflict and increase views, clicks or reads. in general, facts are employed selectively to fit the most compelling narrative possible, rather than the narrative being crafted to fit all the facts. the news business in the last few decades has become a lot less news and more business.
Liz,
First off, I think it is reasonable for people to be horrified by the police shootings in Baton Rouge and Minnesota
Why?? Both were good shoots..
The ONLY reason that people are "horrified" by the shootings is because the perpetrators were black...
AND be horrified by the murder of five officers in Dallas.
My beef is that people EQUATE the two...
It's like being horrified at the take down of Obama Bin Laden and equating that with 9/11....
One has nothing to do with the other on the WRONG scale...
Secondly, I believe it is reasonable that people want and need to know what exactly happened in Baton Rouge and Minnesota,
Fine.. I think it's ridiculous that people want to know what happened SOLELY because the subjects were black, but OK..
Here's the thing.. People don't WANT to "know what happened".. They are calling for a kangaroo court, then they want to forget the court and go straight to the execution of the officers...
It goes back to my beef against ya'all (N.E.N.) about waiting for the facts..
When cops get shot or killed, ya'all (N.E.N.) want to "wait for the facts".. When cops justifiably shoot subjects, ya'all (N.E.N.) want to hang 'em high.. But ONLY if the subjects are black..
Forgive me, but there is NOTHING reasonable about that...
With all the facts we know now, BOTH were GOOD SHOOTs...
It's that simple..
have to say that I don't know anyone here or anywhere else who would not agree with you and Michale and your husband that an officer isn't a bad cop just because he is involved in a shooting. I like to think we are all far more sophisticated than that.
Most are... Some aren't....
As far as why Departments are reluctant to share information with the DOJ??
The witch hunt climate and Blame The Cops First, Only And Always attitude from the current administration is likely the reason why....
Why help someone who is just going to turn around and stab you in the back??
Michale
Here's the thing.. People don't WANT to "know what happened".. They are calling for a kangaroo court, then they want to forget the court and go straight to the execution of the officers...
that's not accurate. maybe some people just want their preconceived beliefs confirmed, regardless of the facts. but others genuinely want to know the whole story, what exactly happened and why. i realize "good shoot" is jargon, but it's really offensive. irrespective of whether or not it's justifiable homicide, no fatal shooting that could have been avoided is "good."
JL
that's not accurate.
It's not???
Then explain the violent protests??
but others genuinely want to know the whole story, what exactly happened and why.
We KNOW what happened and why...
The problem is people don't want to accept the facts..
Just like they didn't want to accept the facts with Wilson/Brown and Zimmerman/Martin...
i realize "good shoot" is jargon, but it's really offensive. irrespective of whether or not it's justifiable homicide, no fatal shooting that could have been avoided is "good."
You see?? That's my point.. You think the shootings could have been "avoided"...
Without the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, explain how the shootings could have been avoided...
You can't...
Good Shoot may be offensive to those who are anti-police but it is an accurate assessment..
Michale...
If you don't mind, could we drag this conversation forward to the FTP ???
Michale