Yes, we're using 'outlaw' in two slightly different ways, I think.

The outlaws of the old West were petty criminals from the lower classes, and the robber barons of the Gilden Age were nouveau riche entrepreneurs who bent, bought, or broke the laws to create great companies and large fortunes.

But the term 'robber' is there for a reason - the barons also were 'outside the law' even if their sense was that they were above the law, while the outlaws robbing mail trains on the prairie were below the law.

That is the sense I meant when noting that Trump is an outlaw, just as J. P. Morgan was. Nothing about a bandanna over the face and a six-gun in the hand need apply -- outlawry is still criminality in whatever guise it might wear.

disagree about robber barons being the same as outlaws. JP Morgan and Ike Clanton were both involved in the cowboy war with Wyatt Earp and doc holiday. one was an outlaw and the other a robber baron. not the same.

I love your exposition on the American fascination with the outlaw beating the law. But as you say, that actually has nothing to do with Hunter Biden.

I do agree that Biden the younger is "part of a long and storied tradition". But that tradition is the one where wayward children with excellent connections are protected from the law by their parents and their parents' social status. He's no "unwashed outsider", he's the child of "the establishment" that the establishment goes out of its way to shelter and forgive when things go wrong.

And as for Trump, I'd say being a 'robber baron' for all that it's a metaphorical term, implies outlawry. One isn't half and half - one is both.

And yes, it does seem like he's dodged the sheriff and the jail and the scaffold, once and for all at this point.

what no one seems to want to understand about this is that America has always had a love affair with outlaws who find new and creative ways to avoid answering for their crimes; it feeds the dreams of the nation. we read serials about Jesse James and Billy the Kid. we watch endless films about Al Capone and John Gotti. yes, these are bad men who did bad things, but they're also evidence that it is possible, however briefly, for an unwashed outsider to fight the establishment and win.

hunter biden barely fits the mold, if at all; he's just the problem child of a powerful dad. Donald on the other hand isn't just a president, he's an institution. he's half outlaw and half robber baron, and he still hasn't been caught.

JL

You are, of course, assuming that people actually care what you read and don't read... :)

And people say that I'M arrogant!! :)

"OF COURSE I'M ARROGANT!!! I'VE EARNED IT!!"
-Q

:D

Passive Aggressive much?? :)

What YOU call a "firehouse of vitriol" is simply nothing more then a good healthy dose of FACTS and REALITY..

The massive and shaming spanking that you and your fellow Democrats just received proves that beyond any doubt whatsoever...

As long as you dismiss these FACTS you and your fellow Democrats will never return from the wilderness...

Think about it.. if you dare...

11/20 - 3 posts
11/21 - 8 posts
11/22 - 42 post - some anomaly relating to Thanksgiving?
11/25 - 5 posts
11/26 - 0 posts
11/27 - 11 posts
12/2 - 3 posts

That averages 11, but without the 11/22 outlier it's actually 6 posts before things go south.

So as I've been trying to do, it clearly pays to get your thoughtful and relevant comments to Chris' ideas and observation in early. I don't read whatever follows.

There IS no debate..

If Democrats EVER want to have a snowball's chance in hell of winning another election, they are going to have to STOP running further and further Left and get to the center or, even better, center-right..

As the rest of Americans are...

It's really that simple..

America is a center-right country.. Period. End Trans....

As an aside, THIS is exactly why I always kick ya'all's asses all over Weigantia.. ALL ya'all ever have is WaPoop, NY Grime and other Democrat Propaganda outlets to try and support ya'all's points.. I use those same outlets to prove how wrong ya'all are.. :D

Anyways, the question is:

Are progressive groups sinking Democrats' electoral chances?

Of course they are..

What troubles the Democratic Party? Following Kamala Harris’s loss, numerous Democrats and center-left analysts have placed the blame on one factor: "the groups."

They argue that progressive advocacy and activist organizations have not only shifted too far to the left but have also gained excessive sway within the Democratic coalition. This influence, they claim, has driven the party to embrace positions that are misaligned with the average voter on various issues. As a result, they believe this miscalculation has hurt the party’s electoral chances and may ultimately harm the very communities these groups aim to support.

“Many of today’s lawmakers and leaders have come up at a time when alienating the groups is seen as anathema, but they should start seeing it as both right and necessary.”
-Democrat Staffer Adam Jentleson

“I’m quite comfortable — morally and politically — with the position that Dem presidential candidates shouldn’t let voters believe they want to defund the police, abolish ICE, decriminalize border crossings, or provide transition surgeries for undocumented immigrants in prison.”
-Democrat Jon Favreau

The problem for Democrats is that, despite the claims of Favreau, those **ARE** the positions of the Democrat Party..

One only has to peruse any of the Democrat propaganda sites to find the FACTS that prove this..

Weigantia is a perfect example of this..

For the most part, ya'all are a bunch of progressives who hate cops, who support drug legalization, open borders and leniency for criminals..

And where ya'all (AND the Democrat Party) finds yerselves now is facing the result of that massive push to the Left..

A huge electoral and popular vote loss...

Until ya'all (AND the Democrat Party) can take that needed look in the mirror, what happened in 2016 and 2024 is going to continue to happen over and over and over again..

Just as sure as night follows day which follows night..

"Whataboutism ammo. Not just Donald Trump but plenty of Republicans are going to bring up Hunter's pardon ad nauseam.

You mean like you and the other Democrats have brought up President ELECT so-called "crimes" ad nasuem??

You mean like that??

This seems ridiculous to me. Trump abused the pardon power repeatedly as president,

No more than and a lot less than DEMOCRAT Presidents have abused the pardon power...

Why is it OK for Democrats and not for Republicans??

Isn't that hypocritical on your part??

Try to imagine there was no pardon this week, and then explain how any future Republican defenses of Trump's upcoming crimes and misdeeds would be any different at all except for whom on the Democratic side they will scapegoat to excuse the inexcusable Trump.

It would be extremely "different" because Democrats simply have no moral, ethical or legally leg to stand on..

Explain to me how Hunter Biden's legitimate prosecutions were nothing but political machinations yet President Trump's lawfare persecutions were legitimate prosecutions.

Can you explain the logic of your position??

No, you cannot.. Which is why you won't even try to..

The facts are clear.

Basement Biden has a valid point when he says that no one NOT named Biden would have been prosecuted for those crimes.

It's ALSO an equally valid point to say that no one NOT named Trump would have been prosecuted for those "crimes".

At least Hunter Biden's crimes were REAL crimes that had to jump thru ZERO hoops to be prosecuted..

President Trump's "crimes" required Democrats to use novel, NEVER BEFORE ATTEMPTED legal theories, requiring the addition of NEW laws and changing existing laws to allow the persecutions...

That's the different between President Trump's made up "crimes" and Hunter Biden's real and actual crimes..

These are the facts that NO ONE can argue..

I'm sorry to say that Biden's legacy was going to be a very tarnished one before this pardon.

Yea it was.. But the pardon debacle ended all hope of a return to grace..

One thing not mentioned here by Chris is the impact that the unpleasant forcing out of Biden from the presidential race by his fellow Democrats and media/blogosphere (all parts of both) had on his decision-making process. I'm guessing that it had quite A LOT to do with making the decision to pardon a much easier one than it otherwise might have been.

Very good point, Liz..

I am sure that Biden's thought process was, "Well, my family got frak'ed over so I am going to save my son and to hell with the Party.."

Considering the circumstances of Biden being stabbed in the back by the Party, one can hardly blame Biden for putting his family before the Party.

My brother is doing the Trump dance

Democrats are eating a giant helping of crow since voters delivered a stunning victory for the Republican candidate
https://www.irishtimes.com/world/americas/2024/11/30/my-brother-is-doing-the-trump-dance/

This is the ONLY way that the Democrat Party becomes a relevant Political Party...

Such a pardon would definetly take the winds out of the sails of the GOP vis a vis pitching about this First Druggie pardon.... :)

"Whataboutism ammo. Not just Donald Trump but plenty of Republicans are going to bring up Hunter's pardon ad nauseam. Guaranteed. Over and over and over again, to excuse any excesses of either Trump or any other Republican, from this point going forward. No matter how egregious things get, they'll be ready with: 'But Joe Biden pardoned Hunter!' Count on it. They'll use it to justify any number of unethical or even illegal things. That right there is a strong argument for Joe not to have done it."

This seems ridiculous to me. Trump abused the pardon power repeatedly as president, and has promised to do so ten times more inappropriately during his second term. The idea that the Republicans will even try to pretend that the "unethical or even illegal things" they will be doing starting in January will be easier for them to defend or justify, because of this pardon of Biden's, doesn't make sense in today's American politics.

That's not how the GOP works anymore. Try to imagine there was no pardon this week, and then explain how any future Republican defenses of Trump's upcoming crimes and misdeeds would be any different at all except for whom on the Democratic side they will scapegoat to excuse the inexcusable Trump.

Even given the impact on the decision by the outcome of the election, it's still hard to believe that Biden wouldn't have pardoned Hunter had Harris won. Mostly because it has been getting harder and harder to believe much of anything the Biden Harris administration has said on some very big issues.

One thing not mentioned here by Chris is the impact that the unpleasant forcing out of Biden from the presidential race by his fellow Democrats and media/blogosphere (all parts of both) had on his decision-making process. I'm guessing that it had quite A LOT to do with making the decision to pardon a much easier one than it otherwise might have been.