"if everyone else is always the problem, maybe the problem isn't everyone else."

Heh.

I see dead people.... They only see what they want to see. They don't know they're dead.

Don't tell me I have to explain, again, the historical and geopolitical differences between Ukraine, Finland and Sweden vis-a-vis their relationships with the USSR/Russia. Because, that's pretty basic stuff and I've already used up enough of Chris's blog space on those particular distinctions.

Okay, you don't have to explain "those particular distinctions" again since you never really explained them to begin with.

Of course, if the basic stuff can't be understood I shouldn't be surprised by the lack of understanding and wrong-headed assumptions I've been dealing with here since this war began.

Well, you quite obviously have little to no clue about a plethora of history, and that demonstrably goes a very long way in explaining your near-total lack of understanding.

Try not to make expansive statements then that you lack the inclination to back up.

That's Hamas' decision.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to pore over your posts and reexamine your fallacies for you.

Must everyone in Gaza starve to death in order to decimate Hamas?

Only every terrorism apologist ever.

Despite all of the handwringing and, ah, tough talk from the Biden administration over what Israel is doing in Gaza, the US has now extended the suspension of funding for UNRWA for a year at a time when the agency is trying to prevent widespread famine. This coming after Israel has made accusations that some Hamas attackers on 7/10 are UNRWA employees.

While the US is UNRWA's biggest donor, it is heartening to see that Canada, Sweden and Australia have resumed their funding to this critical UN agency at a time when that support is most needed.

This is just one more reason why the US is losing credibility and support throughout the world, particularly across the Global South. So much for Biden's dream of a new world order. :(

https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/2024-03-23/ty-article/.premium/u-s-officially-bars-unrwa-funding-through-march-2025/0000018e-6cfb-d477-abbf-effb6e770001

It's hard to know what kind of distorted reality passes for real life here in Weigantia. ;)

What propaganda am I parroting?

That is generally a true statement.

I challenge both of you to find a quote of me where I have parroted Russian propaganda - historical or current - or where I have written something about this war that isn't a reflection of what is actually happening in Ukraine.

That should keep the both of you busy for a little while. Heh.

...it might be best for you to avert your eyes away from my posts.

If your posts didn't distort or wholly obliterate reality, then I would probably do so. But, alas, I'll keep reading them, if only to set the record straight.

Don't tell me I have to explain, again, the historical and geopolitical differences between Ukraine, Finland and Sweden vis-a-vis their relationships with the USSR/Russia. Because, that's pretty basic stuff and I've already used up enough of Chris's blog space on those particular distinctions.

Of course, if the basic stuff can't be understood I shouldn't be surprised by the lack of understanding and wrong-headed assumptions I've been dealing with here since this war began.  

Your prattling spewing of the right-wingnut Kremlin propaganda that Ukraine is some kind of "Deep State" project of America is again duly noted.

~ Kick

You are free to duly note whatever you wish.

Yes, I'm well aware of that and need never to be reminded, although you are free to waste your time doing so, obviously.

But, please stop putting words in my mouth that I have never said, attributing notions to me that I have never put forth or propaganda that I have never parroted.

As a person on this blog once told me:

You are free to duly note whatever you wish.

~ Elizabeth Miller

As for your pathetic plea to stop "putting words" in your mouth, I did no such thing. Do you possibly believe that the scare quotes around the words "Deep State" are actually meant to somehow quote you? They're not. You should educate yourself regarding scare quotes and how they are used to denote a writer's skepticism, among many other things.

What I did there was actually paraphrase your oft repeated prattling "parroted" propaganda. I'm surprised I have to explain this to a longtime reader, but when I wish to quote a commenter at length, this is how it will generally occur:

And, let's not also forget that these are the same people who were pushing NATO membership for Ukraine during the last thirty plus years and for the war in Ukraine and for continuing the push for both today - all, I might add, at the clear expense of Ukraine and its people. The Neocons have made it easy for Putin to do exactly what he is doing, in other words.

~ Elizabeth Miller

Oh, look. That quote there is exactly indicative of what I was paraphrasing when I said: "Your prattling spewing of the right-wingnut Kremlin propaganda that Ukraine is some kind of "Deep State" project of America is again duly noted.

Why else do you think JL responded at [38] the way he did? There are obviously a plethora of other examples I could have chosen, but I chose one from the same commentary.

I have had just about enough of your special brand of nonsense but continue to hope for better from you.

Like my Daddy always used to say: "Wish in one hand and shit in the other; see which one gets full first."

Call me a cockeyed optimist ... or a sucker for punishment. :)

Okay, you're a sucker... also gullible. If you're too much of a kitty to handle the truth, it might be best for you to avert your eyes away from my posts. :)

If one believes that NATO expansion caused the invasion, it naturally follows that a negotiated NATO disengagement will prevent the invasion from continuing any further.

I know, right? Also, if one had (seemingly) more than one brain cell, they'd already know that Putin's demands were actually posted by Russia online (I posted a link) and far exceeded "NATO disengagement."

Not rocket science, I know you know. :)

Great article... dead on accurate:

While members of the NATO school point to Russia’s right to retaliate against NATO expansion based on invasions by Napoleon and Hitler in centuries past, they discount and ignore the fears of Ukraine, Poland, Finland and the Baltic States – all of which had been invaded, brutally occupied and colonised by Russia for centuries.

Exactly right. Why aren't the uninformed/misinformed who are regurgitating ad nauseam the Russian disinformation also blaming the United States for "pushing NATO membership" expansion into Norway and Sweden? Also, why can't those spewing the conspiracy theorist type drivel on all manner of subjects resist the urge that compels them to reduce the "answer" to so many complex things into a single simple one? Maybe they're just gullible or too lazy... or both.

It couldn't possibly have anything at all to do with centuries of traditional Russian imperialist policy and in more recent history the decades of Soviet Union/Russian aggression against Ukraine, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Norway, Sweden, etc.... had to have been caused by those darn Americans. /sarcasm off

Good read. Thank you. :)

are you talking about the quote from spinning silver?

So again, Miss Vancouver, please answer to my above boldified question. I want you to prove me wrong!

Did you not read my answer? Okay, okay ... here it is again but this time I'll boldify it. Ahem.

Well, I think Putin has found out the hard way that he chose very unwisely in starting this war and that Ukraine and its allies have clearly demonstrated that he most decidedly cannot do whatever the hell he wants in Ukraine - not a NATO member - without facing the wrath of, ah, NATO.

And, there you have it. Case made.

But, I hope you see that I don't really have to make the case for something that is already a fact on the ground! I mean, even Putin must know that he CANNOT do whatever the hell he wants in non-NATO member Ukraine! The West, that is to say US/NATO and their support for Ukraine, while not enough, have accomplished at least that much. :)

By the way, do you think Biden has a plan for getting more aid to Ukraine and fast so that it is better positioned for the coming negotiated settlement because I sure don't see one. Biden used to be all about these sorts of plans. Not anymore, apparently. :(

Um, to be completely candid I may very well be suffering from lack of “Sunday Night Canadian Rock n Roll — and Other Nationalities Dance Party”.

And obviously I am hugely emotionally involved with the land of my ancestors, Ukraine. It’s my unknown (got cut off by the Bolshevik Revolution so my family tree only goes back as far as my grandparents landing at Ellis Island) DNA that’s been fighting and dying to keep Putin from establishing the USSR to create “strategic depth”.
This is the LAST generation of Rooskie military aged young men that’s BIG ENOUGH to recreate said “strategic depth”.

Russia has been invaded some 50 times starting with Ghengis Khan in 1250. Russia cannot defend its current borders it needs to expand to Warsaw and the Bessarabian Gap, well into NATO ally Romania. Just like in the Caucasus/Georgia 2008 and Chechnya and Kazakstan and others. It’s what Russians do…because their geography makes them do so. Putin was always going to try to finish off Ukraine (since 2014, ahem) so NATO was always an excuse.

But I’d still like your response to my boldified** query, above. Gaining understanding will be critical to our discourse on this matter.

So again, Miss Vancouver, please answer to my above boldified question. I want you to prove me wrong! Just like nypoet22 led me to switch from “Palestinian Sympathetic” to “Full on Fuck the Palestinians they want to destroy Israel so at this point a two-state solution would be INSANE.”

Hey Poet! I’d like to chat about your opinion as to where we go from this point that after 75 years the Palestinians have proven to be mortal enemies of Judaism.

**I’m kinda weird in that I love how language evolves and that includes turning nouns into verbs (e.g. “googling” or “zelling” or, in this case, “boldifying”.

–almost famous

Are you daring kick to quote you?

Do you think Kick needs encouragement in that department? :)

First off, you need to seriously chill out. You must be suffering from a lack of classic Canadian rock, or something. :)

So, you would like me to "Make the case for “telling Putin that a NATO Ukraine will never happen isn’t a ‘help yourself — do whatever the hell you want!’” or puh-lease stop parroting Putin’s Russia."

Should I make that case in bold print? Heh.

Well, I think Putin has found out the hard way that he chose very unwisely in starting this war and that he most decidedly cannot do whatever the hell he wants in Ukraine - not a NATO member - without facing the wrath of, ah, NATO.

How am I doing so far?

Wrong wrong wrong — stop apologizing for Putin, goddammit! Ukrainians voted overwhelmingly for independence in 1991 — in the lowest Oblast (think Province) it was still 54%. And no one made Ukrainians put their aspiration into joining NATO…

Fucking knock it off if you won’t engage!

“Engage” means answer the boldified question above.

Your prattling spewing of the right-wingnut Kremlin propaganda that Ukraine is some kind of "Deep State" project of America is again duly noted.

You are free to duly note whatever you wish. But, please stop putting words in my mouth that I have never said, attributing notions to me that I have never put forth or propaganda that I have never parroted.

I have had just about enough of your special brand of nonsense but continue to hope for better from you. Call me a cockeyed optimist ... or a sucker for punishment. :)

Are you actually following what is happening in Ukraine?

If one believes that NATO expansion caused the invasion, it naturally follows that a negotiated NATO disengagement will prevent the invasion from continuing any further.

Is this supposed to make sense?

i think part of the trouble with Putin's mythological narrative is its internal consistency. If one believes that NATO expansion caused the invasion, it naturally follows that a negotiated NATO disengagement will prevent the invasion from continuing any further.

i have some personal experience with crazy people who believe a mythological but internally consistent narrative. it's very hard to counteract because there's an explanation for everything, even though it's false.

here's a reasonably good explanation of how that applies.

JL

How long should Ukrainians have to suffer until this war ends the way it is eventually going to end - with a settlement?

It's going to end in a settlement (like all modern wars end) so why not end it now? We're all going to die eventually so why fight the SARS-CoV-2 virus? That is not meant to be an equivalency comparison... just meant to illustrate how dumb your question sounds.

As I have said, Ukraine has already won this war very early on by impressively pushing Russians back from taking Kyiv and the greater part of Ukraine.

Elizabeth Miller declares victory. Big whoop.

What is so wrong with a diplomatic settlement that ends the war with Ukraine in control of what it essentially had before the war began...

Nothing... as long as it's on Ukraine's terms and at a time of Ukraine's choosing.

... starts the reconstruction process and allows Ukrainians to get back to making their country strong, secure and, ah, democratic and ready to fight - diplomatically speaking - another day?

Today is already another day, and tomorrow will also already be another day, and as long as Ukraine is ready to continue to fight right now for its democracy and its survival as a sovereign nation against Russian aggression, then it's their call and so be it.

Your prattling spewing of the right-wingnut Kremlin propaganda that Ukraine is some kind of "Deep State" project of America is again duly noted. You should seriously consider taking MtnCaddy's and JL's very good advice... or keep regurgitating Putin's disinformation like a gullible rube.

This is absolutely outrageous and I can't understand how the lot of you here who claim to support Ukraine aren't getting your collective shirt tied up in knots over this!

~ Elizabeth Miller

Here, let me help you. You fell hard for the Russian propaganda and apparently cannot stop yourself from regurgitating the dezinformatsiya coming directly from Moscow as if spewing it ad nauseam is going to somehow change somebody's mind, and I'll give you two very good reasons why you're wasting your time:

(1) Repeating disinformation propaganda over and over only works on the gullible/uninformed... typically your right-wingnut conspiracy theorist or similar type.

(2) We're informed and not gullible.

i guess the whole, "give me liberty or give me death" thing never really registered in canada.

You are absolutely 100% correct. In fact, Canada didn't adopt its own constitution and gain full sovereignty until 1982. Seriously. Canada did not become a completely independent country until 1982... not 1782... not 1882... not a typo... 19 effing 82.

AND

As we "speak," Canada is still today part of the British Commonwealth, and Charles III is King of Canada.

https://www.gg.ca/en/crown/sovereign-and-royal-family

So, to recap: Canada/Britain/Neville Chamberlain are synonymous with appeasement, and today's prattling never-ending right-wingnut bullshit dezinformatsiya narrative coming directly from Moscow and Putin (and in our case, regurgitated from Canada) that Vladimir's obvious imperial ambitions are somehow legitimate grievances is proof beyond all doubt that some fools never learn. Appeasement only encourages further Russian aggression. Those who will not, cannot or refuse to acknowledge the lessons of history are just dumber than a bag of hammers. :)

The callword is (still) panda.

https://www.boredpanda.com/bad-argument-false-fallacies-dummies/

I call the both sides bullshit the BSBS. :)

i guess the whole, "give me liberty or give me death" thing never really registered in canada.

Heh.

Actually, that's not very funny, especially if you happen to be a family in Ukraine just trying to get by.

How long should Ukrainians have to suffer until this war ends the way it is eventually going to end - with a settlement?

As I have said, Ukraine has already won this war very early on by impressively pushing Russians back from taking Kyiv and the greater part of Ukraine. What is so wrong with a diplomatic settlement that ends the war with Ukraine in control of what it essentially had before the war began, starts the reconstruction process and allows Ukrainians to get back to making their country strong, secure and, ah, democratic and ready to fight - diplomatically speaking - another day?

Unless you think Ukraine can win this war with Russia - with or without NATO - and regain all of its rightful territory by force of arms (in which case you may be dreaming in technicolour) and unless you presume to know what Ukrainians writ large actually want, then you should be supporting a diplomatic solution to this mess before Ukraine loses any more territorial control.

Eight months before a presidential election. :)

"Most Americans" when polled will also tell you that "America is headed in the wrong direction," that they are "pro-life," and that the current "Congress" should be "voted out." What these type poll questions have in common is how the answers are generally so predictable and therefore (almost) practically useless to pollsters trying to discern the actual political "winds" here in the 21st century.

* Polling shows "most Americans" believe the country is headed in the wrong direction, which presumably/allegedly infers negativity on the incumbent president, but those of us who believe Donald Trump is largely the reason for that don't exactly fit neatly in that old narrative.

* Polling shows "most Americans" consider themselves "pro-life" so the GOP ignorantly believes they just haven't messaged it properly rather than drilling down to discover that "most Americans" also believe their government should not be in the business of forcing birth on rape victims or any other American or making health care decisions for anyone, which obviously includes making reproductive health care decisions.

* Polling shows "most Americans" think "Congress" should be voted out, but drill down to find that most actually like their representatives and think yours should be voted out. Not rocket science.

As for the polling regarding "most Americans" not being "exactly thrilled" with this rematch, drill down on that. In the polls that matter, most Democrats voted overwhelmingly for the reelection of the incumbent president, and Republicans voted for the criminal defendant, although not exactly by overwhelming margins in quite a large number of states... so it's a useless question to ask Americans whether they like the rematch. They each obviously don't like the other Party's candidate, and if Independent voters actually favored Trump, he obviously wouldn't be running in this election because of term limits.

like israel, they will fight with or without our support, and win or lose, will not give in.

Of course, what Ukraine is really lacking is in manpower. Which is why a diplomatic solution is not too far off, I surmise.

They wouldn't be getting half of Ukraine ... just what they had before this war and perhaps a wee bit more. What happens next in Ukraine is anyone's guess but there are ways to prevent such an invitation as the one you describe.

And, it looks pretty much like US/NATO have already decided to let the status quo ante in Ukraine, more or less, stand but, we'll see...

I'm guessing that Ukraine has become far more clear-eyed about what its friends and allies are willing to do - for Ukraine or for the security of Europe, for that matter.

The only way Ukraine loses is if we decide to have them lose, as we seem to be doing. Our weapons transfers to Ukraine have only been something like 10% of our overall weapons exports during the war.

There is no way that just giving Russia half of Ukraine will be anything but an invitation to take the other half.

Russia delenda est

This is absolutely outrageous and I can't understand how the lot of you here who claim to support Ukraine aren't getting your collective shirt tied up in knots over this!

How much longer must Ukraine have to suffer in the great fight for democracy and security of Europe!

I know, Ukraine will prevail after the next great counteroffensive. Oh, wait ...

Or, the F-16s are coming and that will be the game changer.

Look, Russia and Putin aren't going away anytime soon. Better to face that dilemma than to ignore it, for the sake of Ukraine. The West has failed to stop Putin both with their half-hearted efforts on the battlefield and with their tough sanctions everywhere else.

Folks, you simply have to stop listening to the Neocons and stand up for the security and integrity of Ukraine, for once in your lives.

The Diplomatic Path to a Secure Ukraine

https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-defense-lines-stem-russian-advance/32858322.html

the argument that we'll never know what would have happened had NATO not expanded, and therefore it's biden's responsibility for failing to account for Russian sensitivity

That, by the way, is a silly and disjointed argument that I have never made.

if you don't:

1. address other people's evidence directly
2. explain why you think it is either untrue, irrelevant, or somehow fits within your paradigm, and
3. change your paradigm to include evidence you can't refute or explain away,

then it seems like you aren't being honest with us or with yourself.

example: the argument that we'll never know what would have happened had NATO not expanded, and therefore it's biden's responsibility for failing to account for Russian sensitivity, is a logical fallacy with a name: appeal to ignorance (argumentum ad ignorantium). it is a fallacy because it improperly shifts the burden of proof from the person making the argument to the person charged with refuting it.

(panda #9 for those playing the home version)

having read and processed this, what argument is used next time? the exact same one, with no acknowledgement that it's fallacious, no explanation of how this time it's not, no additional evidence to support the actual claim, and no evidence of any kind to refute the counter-assertion.

even on a topic that's not particularly close to home for me, it's quite frustrating. shucks, I really should do what I was asked and stop reading.

JL

You are taking things too personally, number one; and, number two, stop telling me to shut up just because you can't handle the truth.

Make the case for “telling Putin that a NATO Ukraine will never happen isn’t a ‘help yourself — do whatever the hell you want!’” or puh-lease stop parroting Putin’s Russia. It really pisses me off that you keep posting Russian propaganda without engaging with Weigantia to defend yourself.

You also need to stop getting your shirt all twisted up in a knot over something I have never said.

Wrong, wrong and wrong again.

And, let's not also forget that these are the same people who were pushing NATO membership for Ukraine during the last thirty plus years and for the war in Ukraine and for continuing the push for both today - all, I might add, at the clear expense of Ukraine and its people. The Neocons have made it easy for Putin to do exactly what he is doing, in other words.

Wrong wrong wrong — stop apologizing for Putin, goddammit! Ukrainians voted overwhelmingly for independence in 1991 — in the lowest Oblast (think Province) it was still 54%. And no one made Ukrainians put their aspiration into joining NATO…

In their CONSTITUTION!

Make the case for “telling Putin that a NATO Ukraine will never happen isn’t a ‘help yourself — do whatever the hell you want!’” or puh-lease stop parroting Putin’s Russia.

It really pisses me off that you keep posting Russian propaganda without engaging with Weigantia to defend yourself.

Fucking knock it off if you won’t engage!

Which, I'm guessing, is something she was only too happy to carry out! :)

If I can split my ticket, I'll vote for Biden for president and Aaron Rodgers for vice-president. Let's have a real stud in the White House.

Ha! I've heard Biden called a lot of things but I do believe 'stud' is a first! Heh.

Oh ... you weren't talking about Aaron Rogers, were you? Good God.

But, he didn't get any sort of bounce from this memorable SOTU speech. In fact, the opposite has happened with Trump now leading in the latest polls in the battleground states!

PRECISELY!!!

And, let's not also forget that these are the same people who were pushing NATO membership for Ukraine during the last thirty plus years and for the war in Ukraine and for continuing the push for both today - all, I might add, at the clear expense of Ukraine and its people. The Neocons have made it easy for Putin to do exactly what he is doing, in other words.

Yeah? Well, I'm guessing that, four years from now, most Americans will be harking back to 2024 and thinking about how lucky they were to have had the choice they had then.

I mean, seriously, who is on the horizon for both parties in terms of presidential material in the year 2028 and beyond? They can't even find a third party/no labels candidate worth his or her own salt for THIS election cycle. ;)

When you think about what the future holds for politics - and music, for that matter and, frankly, more importantly - it's hard not to become thoroughly depressed. Or, maybe I'm just getting too old. :(

We can only hope that Democrats at the state and local level take FULL advantage of this.

We are suffering the consequences of the Democratic neglect of state legislatures, resulting in the gerrymandering after the 2010 and 2020 censuses.