None.

I'm not saying that it is possible. Obviously, it's not at all possible in the good ole USA, home of the brave and land of the free - not now nor possibly ever given how far off the rails the US has gone and is going.

Roe v Wade was a compromise position, and it was a pretty effective standard for fifty years. What evidence do you have that something more fair and just than roe is possible right now in the USA?

I have met people in person who take the parasite view of pregnancy. Of course the incidence is not so high, but they exist. I'm sure there are more people on the miscarriage is murder side. However, that's partly by the cynical design of politicians who wanted to use it to motivate religious voters.

I think we might be getting somewhere on this 'rational debate' thing ... to a place that actually makes sense! :) Chris and Joshua, not so much.

Think about it. The subject is not addressed in the Hebrew Bible as Judaism never defined life as beginning at conception.

But Moses said “Thou shalt not kill,” might be a rejoinder.

Oh, but it’s okay to kill in self defense. It’s okay to kill when at war — in fact it’s highly encouraged, hello. And it’s okay for the State to execute live adults, even though the death penalty isn’t fairly applied to minorities, and Life without Parole is far cheaper than all the resources spent on litigation.

Neither does the Christian Bible, that is, Jesus ain’t say that! You’d think he would have said something about it if it was important to God, amirite?

The fact is, Satan’s Whore the Roman Catholic Church (I’m channeling my inner Evangelical here, ahem) was generally against the concept from the get go, give or take whether it was okay before quickening. I’ve read the entire Quran along with one of the Sunni Hadiths (sayings of The Prophet) and in them abortion is likewise not addressed.

But let’s leave aside the fact that none of these Abrahamic religions bring the subject up. Even if they did spell it out explicitly it’s wrong to jam what is a personal religious belief down everybody’s throats. Freedom of Religion is meaningless without freedom from other people’s religion.

Would someone put-leeze explain why The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated… aka our 4th Amendment doesn’t settle this matter? How much more explicit does it have to be than “persons”?

If I were King there would be no restrictions whatsoever on reproductive health care — don’t forget that that includes contraception. For putting restrictions solves a problem that doesn’t exist (like restricting voting rights addresses a problem that doesn’t exist). “Viability” is morally wrong because why should a rapist’s fetus have less protection than other fetuses? Doesn’t that rapist’s fetus have a soul, too? And what woman puts off having an abortion?

And yes, like you I have read about those who say a fetus from the moment of conception is an "innocent child" that it is "murder" to abort. But no, I've never read about the *Alien* imagery you refer to on the opposite end of the argument.

how does someone who believes abortion is the murder of an innocent child talk to someone who believes it is the removal of a parasitic infestation? they don't. they can't. it's up to everyone else to put those two camps on the sideline and enforce a standard that both extremes will hate, but with which the rest of us can live.

JL