Unintentionally hilarious!

I see you are getting to know yourself. :)

I suppose you think calling me soft on dictators and a Putin apologist is akin to making a good argument.

You've got this new habit of putting words in people's mouths that they never said. Unless sophistry is your actual intention, you should seriously stop doing that.

I may have pegged you all wrong, Joshua.

You definitely just did. :)

Now, if you believe that, at the conclusion of this war, Ukraine will have regained all of its traditional territory and repelled Russia completely, then everything I have written in this blog about this war will have (1) made very little sense and (2) worse but understandably, engendered comments accusing me of being a Putin apologist and hopelessly ill-informed.

One of your main problems is the "all or nothing" magical thinking you keep spewing on repetitive loop. Your explanations make "very little sense" regardless of the outcome of Russia's most recent escalation of their aggression in Ukraine.

Now, if you are right and Ukraine emerges absolutely victorious not only in pushing Russia entirely out of Ukraine but also ensuring that Russian incursions will no longer be a threat,...

Therein lies your main (repetitive) problem, Elizabeth; there's not a single person on this blog who has made the utterly asinine claim that we "are right" and/or that Ukraine must meet that ridiculous scenario of yours I quoted directly above in order to "emerge absolutely victorious." That scenario of yours is a certifiably bonkers view of Russian aggression against Ukraine and their current escalation.

... then I will be the first to applaud all of you for your steadfast commitment to this outcome and admit that my views on the subject were misguided and wrong-headed, at the very least. I sincerely hope that day comes to pass!

"This outcome" of yours brought to us directly from the land where unicorns fart rainbows and pixies frolic in the meadow (props to CW) is your certifiably asinine definition of "victory" and no one else on this blog.

Ukraine's choices were surrender or resistance. Appeasement of an aggressor is an invitation to continued aggression. Duh. :)

no, it really doesn't. it must be said. zelenskiy's inability to imagine away the russian army and vladimir putin's determination to use it isn't a failure. regardless of how the ending plays out, his unification of the western world in support of ukranian independence is a massive success.

Just so you know, I'll never give up on you finally understanding where I'm coming from on the issue of Ukraine. Just don't ... you know what! :)

Well, that certainly goes without saying. Most of my 'arguments' have centered around US and NATO behavior over the decades culminating in the situation we have today.

As for Biden and Z, well, let's chalk up their collective actions over the course of decades in Biden's case and a few short years in Z's tenure in the realm of politics as a massive failure of imagination.

I may have pegged you all wrong, Joshua.

Also, you claim that NATO “interfered” in Ukraine’s internal affairs — a Russian talking point since Maidan in 2014 which ejected Putin’s corrupt stooge Victor Yanukovich.

That is not what I claimed. Here is what I wrote and meant: "I blame Biden and NATO for their big push over the decades to insert themselves into the internal affairs of Ukraine under the guise of the NATO program Partnership For Peace and for their insistence on enlarging NATO to include Ukraine...What really angers me about this war is how the US/NATO have used Ukraine and continue to use Ukraine to further their own interests at the expense of Ukraine and its people."

Doesn’t that mean that NATO also “interfered” with the internal affairs of West Germany and France? What about Poland and the Baltics? What about NATO’s newest member, Finland? Please explain the difference.

Keep in mind that the interests of the US and NATO don't always align with the national interests of any country they insert themselves in. But, seriously, stop wasting my time!

So Elizabeth, are you saying that because Russia has dominated Ukraine on and off for centuries that that’s justification to deny Ukraine the right to exist? Please explain your reasoning...

No, that is not at all what I am saying. My reasoning to what? Please stop wasting my time!

Isn't Biden's need to speak his mind and tell it like it is one of his best personality traits? Fuck Xi, he is a dictator by laws of his own making. Good on Biden telling it like it is.

Yes, usually that is quite true and, indeed, one of the reasons I have been a Biden fan since 1987.

However, calling Xi a dictator a day after he sends his secretary of state - master of diplomacy that Tony Blinkin is, ahem - to China to meet with Xi about defusing tensions between the two countries is just not very smart.

As for why Taiwan should be worried, well I was being just a tad facetious and tongue and cheek there. But, the way things are proceeding in Ukraine should give Taiwan at least some pause for concern, no?

The Russia-Ukraine pieces I linked to were to illustrate why Ukraine is not Finland. Heh.

Speaking of broken agreements, the Minsk and Minsk II protocols and agreements come to mind and all parties involved there were duplicitous to one degree or another, not just Russia. Still, I think that whole process was given pretty short shrift - of course, that's just me and my penchant for diplomacy. Guess I'm a true die hard in that respect!

Like you, I try to consume news from a wide variety of sources but never from any kind of social media platforms. I can't say a get a lot of it from Fox News, either but the other ones you list I use, too and would add al-Jazeera and the South China Morning Post in Hong Kong and many others, depending on the issue at hand. With ever increasing paywalls, this is becoming difficult and I have had to cut back a bit. I used to like having access to C-span but just found out today that you have to subscribe to a television provider of C-span in order to watch C-span videos online. Bummer! I also peruse a few 'think tank' sites for analyses - like the Carnegie Endowment For International Peace, International Crisis Group and Foreign Affairs, to name just three.

More important than the actual sources, though, is the ability to critically look at the news and analysis and be able to discern fact from fiction and recognize propaganda when you see it, coming from all sides. Often times, I find that is a hard thing to do. Which is why I consider myself lucky to also have access to analyses by someone who is steeped in all things military and political, among many other pursuits, and who scours the news from media and political sources far more extensively than either of us.

to put what you said in a nutshell, putin has proven for twenty years that he's negotiating in bad faith. therefore, it behooves all allies of ukraine to presume that he still is, and not give an inch until he gives two.

JL

Joe isn’t picking a fight with Xi he’s simply calling a spade a spade. If Xi doesn’t like it, tough titties! China has to import 80% of its energy along with 80% of its agricultural inputs (the stuff that goes into fertilizer.)
Two Australian destroyers parked in the Straights of Malacca would strangle the Chinese. China doesn’t have the amphibious capability to invade Taiwan — end of the decade…perhaps. And Russia’s tribulations in Ukraine along with Western unity of support also gives China reasons to behave.

Biden has done more for America than any President since Ike and FDR before that. He blasted Trump in 2020 and he’ll do it again in 2024. We Yanks like to say, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.” His poll numbers have sucked for most of his term but not so much that the Dems didn’t have an excellent midterms, eh?

Joe has always been a gaffe machine and that’s just a baked in feature.

So Elizabeth, are you saying that because Russia has dominated Ukraine on and off for centuries that that’s justification to deny Ukraine the right to exist? Please explain your reasoning particularly in light of the 1991 referendum on declaring independence, which had 84% turnout. Did you know that every oblast voted in favor — including 83% of voters in Luhansk and Donetsk and even 54% of Crimea?

Also, you claim that NATO “interfered” in Ukraine’s internal affairs — a Russian talking point since Maidan in 2014 which ejected Putin’s corrupt stooge Victor Yanukovich. Doesn’t that mean that NATO also “interfered” with the internal affairs of West Germany and France? What about Poland and the Baltics? What about NATO’s newest member, Finland? Please explain the difference.

Aside from that first bit about me developing a soft side for dictators, I want to thank you for your thoughtful reply. I really appreciate it. I will respond but have to run now. Thanks again!

You seem to be developing a soft side for dictators...

Isn't Biden's need to speak his mind and tell it like it is one of his best personality traits? Fuck Xi, he is a dictator by laws of his own making. Good on Biden telling it like it is.

Why should Taiwan be worried? China is in weak position and they know it. A naval blockade would bring them to their knees. They don't produce enough domestic energy not to mention losing their export trade. Ukraine has proven that in the modern age, defense is much easier then offense and China's military, though in better condition than Russia's is green. They have fought very few wars since the revolution, whereas ours is a well tested and veteran military at the cutting edge of combined arms warfare. Historically, that actually matters. A lot.

I read your two Russia/Ukraine pieces above. Have you? The agreement for Ukraine not joining NATO was a negotiating point with a country that no longer exists that never made it in to a treaty. I found both articles quite good arguments as to why Ukraine should be supported. Everything I have read about Putin and a few of his actions since the Ukraine war started points to him following Stalin's playbook, as mentioned in those articles, of trying wipe out Ukrainian culture. What's the point in saving Ukraine if their culture is erased? Speaking of vague treaties, let remember it's Putin who broke the agreement to not infringe on Ukraine's borders in trade of them giving up their nukes...

A few threads back you asked where we get our news about the Ukraine situation. Well, until the recent unpleasantness, I get it from the news and world news subs on reddit. Which means stories from just about every outfit world wide. Typically that means everything from Foxnews through CNN to BBC, FT, Jerusalem post, Japan times. What about you?

"The fight for democracy must continue." Ahem.

SIGH.

I hope someone is quietly drawing up a procedure, which will include some time limits, to be introduced after the dust has settled: better tracking of what documents are where, a reasonable time for the moving boxes to be unpacked and documents returned, a time when the NRA presents a list of documents 'we think you still have', time to locate and return those, and then a time at which someone with governmental/court authority will search for anything still missing.

There are reasons Trump hasn't had the best lawyers in all of this: I gather the top firms, the ones that have presidents among their clients, including one I once worked for in a very minor capacity, refuse to take him on. His reluctance to pay, his failure to take essential legal advice, his apparent belief that a lawyer's job is to help him evade or break the law.... The nightmare client.

Now, if you believe that, at the conclusion of this war, Ukraine will have regained all of its traditional territory and repelled Russia completely, then everything I have written in this blog about this war will have (1) made very little sense and (2) worse but understandably, engendered comments accusing me of being a Putin apologist and hopelessly ill-informed.

Now, if you are right and Ukraine emerges absolutely victorious not only in pushing Russia entirely out of Ukraine but also ensuring that Russian incursions will no longer be a threat, then I will be the first to applaud all of you for your steadfast commitment to this outcome and admit that my views on the subject were misguided and wrong-headed, at the very least. I sincerely hope that day comes to pass!

Ukraine joining NATO is a bad idea because the US/NATO see it as in their own best interests, regardless of what is good for Ukraine, number one and, number two, because it ignores the very, very long history that Ukraine and Russia share and struggle with.

Please explain why Ukraine joining NATO was and is a “bad idea.” What makes Ukraine any different than Poland, the Baltics and Finland?

"As I said, it actually makes me feel just a teensy bit sorry for Trump's lawyers. Not much, mind you -- they're still going to walk away with millions of dollars from all of this --"

all I can think of is all the stories I've read about how Trump regularly stiffs his lawyers.

Millions of dollars? Hope you got it advance, gentlemen.

Of course, I do not blame the war on Biden and NATO. But, if I did, I would blame them for taking Ukrainian membership in NATO off the table, not for NOT taking it off the table. Ahem.

I blame Biden and NATO for their big push over the decades to insert themselves into the internal affairs of Ukraine under the guise of the NATO program Partnership For Peace and for their insistence on enlarging NATO to include Ukraine. Which has nothing to do with what Putin approves of or not and everything to do with my belief decades ago and now that Ukraine becoming a member of NATO is a very bad idea. Even Zelensky understands why it is a bad idea. Just as Ukraine can decide for itself what organizations it wishes to be a member of, organizations should be wise enough to know who should and who should not be a member, right?

Ukraine's best case scenario, in my view, was to be a buffer between Russia and the West - for many reasons, not least of which involve historical context and common sense.

I blame Putin for the current situation in Ukraine because he is the one who made the unwise choice to invade. Period.

[11] Caddy wrote:

Elizabeth Miller wrote:
Despite my (and other Weigantian’s) efforts you are unwavering in your belief that somehow sovereign nations Ukraine and the NATOs owe Putin any obedience or even consideration.

Elizabeth replied:

I've never said that and I don't believe that.

That is EXACTLY what you’re saying when you blame the war on Biden and NATO for not taking membership off the table — because Putin didn’t approve.