Thank you for acknowledging the point.

Welcome.

While the tax return proposal may be sincere as well as a dig on Trump, it does kind if illustrate the problem with passing laws to fix problems with our political system- who is going to pass the laws?

This type of tax reform bill was actually recent legislation in New York and New Jersey (passed and vetoed by Chris Christie), and I believe it was introduced on the federal level in the House... where I believe it still sits languishing. So you do indeed have a point there. :)

so... are they apples and orangutans, or are they bound together by a common thread? those two statements contradict each other.

If I take and apple and an orangutan and tie them together with a string, they are STILL just an apple and an orangutan and they ARE connected by a common thread.. Literally..

my point was that the "big money" has a lot more influence on legislators than just funding their election campaigns.

Yes, it does.. But Don is commenting on campaigns.. Once he is successful with getting BIG MONEY out of campaigns he will move on to the lobbyist issue which is completely separate from the issue of campaigns..

given that we're stuck with a big money system anyway,

We're only "stuck with it" because ya'all *ALLOW* yourselves to be "stuck with it" and attack people like Don who refuse to play the victim/fool...

and have been for centuries, i'd rather support a party that tries to get the government to help people get healthcare instead of let them get sick and die without it.

Fine... Then Dumbocrats should quit bitching and moaning about something they tacitly accept and approve of in pursuit of a higher "ideal"..

Thanks for answering, Don. You make some very good points.

Honesty and integrity ARE determined by where the candidate gets their money. In order to represent average citizens a candidate's campaign must be financed by average citizens.

I think a step in the right direction would be a law that required every candidate for federal office to release to the public their most recent tax returns for at minimum the most recent 5 years... preferably 10 years. :)

Nope, they are just relaying the facts on Harris sleeping her way up the ladder and her times as a mistress to various married men..

If that makes her a "loose woman" in your book, I accept your designation..

It wasn't my "designation," it was that of the right-wing rag you posted, and you naturally believe it because it fits your worldview.

But it's an old story.. Dumbocrats never had any use for morals or integrity.. :D

But since you're an admitted player yourself and have no integrity either, don't you fit your own frequent argument of having no moral authority to speak of? <-- Rhetorical question.

And still, there's simply no one the Democrats could run that could big a bigger whore than Donald Trump. :)

my point was that the "big money" has a lot more influence on legislators than just funding their election campaigns. the real issue is corruption endemic in the system (both D's and R's), and on that front there's a lot more to deal with than just campaign finance. given that both parties are part of a corrupt system, i still have yet to see any proposals that i believe would actually be effective at fighting this problem.

given that we're stuck with a big money system anyway, and have been for centuries, i'd rather support a party that tries to get the government to help people get healthcare instead of let them get sick and die without it.

JL

you misunderstand. the trouble is that former legislators are offered lucrative lobbying positions by the firms that lobbied them. every congress critter knows that if they play ball with lobbyists while they are in office the firm will offer them a big money job after they leave office. that form of legalized corruption has nothing to do with large or small campaign contributions.

Yes, JL said it best..

He is comparing Apples and Orangutans and THAT says ya'all's lack of argument best.. :D

Don is talking about electing quality candidates..

JL is talking about the corrupt candidates AFTER they leave office..

But BIG MONEY is the common thread that binds those two concepts together..

Get rid of BIG MONEY and you eliminate BOTH problems.

Ya'all's problem is that ya'all WANT big money for YOUR candidates, but don't want to let your opponents have any big money..

In short, ya'all are FOR big money ir AGAINST big money, depending on whether it's a '-D' or a '-R' who is getting the big money...

The point I was attempting to make was just how unfair it was making such a rigid and utterly foolish statement that anyone who accepts more than $200 in donations CANNOT BE TRUSTED TO KEEP THEIR WORD!

Do you not see how damaging promoting that view is? Your intentions are noble, and please know that I don't believe for a second that you have "sold out".

But I think nypoet22 really said it best when he told Michale:

you misunderstand. the trouble is that former legislators are offered lucrative lobbying positions by the firms that lobbied them. every congress critter knows that if they play ball with lobbyists while they are in office the firm will offer them a big money job after they leave office. that form of legalized corruption has nothing to do with large or small campaign contributions.

BTW, here's an interview with a candidate for the 4th district in NJ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3s2INSZnSA0

What do you think?

A

I don't think it's an inconsistency.
You aren't running for office.

And the problems with self funded campaigns by the rich are very different too.

But whatever.

A

Don't change your policies because someone equates putting your own money towards a good cause with the corrupting influence of Big Money.

The comparison isn't valid.

A

What are we going to do with you?
Messaging is all this is... platitudes not policy.
"A big step in the right direction" my foot.

And, while TS probably isn't wrong with his dog whistle comment above, there is more that needs to be said.

Taking foreign policy off the table is an admission that the Dems will continue to maintain the failed status quo on foreign policy... a status quo which guarantees excessive spending on military interventionism that makes it impossible to fund needed domestic priorities.

As for their focused economic message-

Higher taxes on the rich- higher how, higher where, and for what?
Will the revenue be dedicated to infrastructure and "affordable" (not free) college? Or will it be for tax cuts on businesses (like Obama wanted) and increased military spending?

Better jobs- how?

Better skills- this is an admission by Dems that they will maintain their support for the bipartisan corporatist policies which have hollowed out the US economy by offshoring millions of good jobs, and that their "solution" for all of the Americans who are suffering from those policies will continue to be retraining... a mythical premise where the working class will be offered some classes to learn new things for either jobs that don't exist where they live or for the jobs that will be offshored next.

These job training programs have a track record of failure.
It is lip service.
A plan to claim they are helping while doing less than is necessary, throwing those workers to the wolves, which will then allow the politicians to turn around and blame all who fail for the failure they made likely.

Better wages- This sounds like a ringing endorsement for not embracing the Fight For $15.

Better gets repeated three times, and yet "Better than Trump" was a failure.
I get wanting to give an encouraging spin, but that choice of words just sounds like impending doom to me.

Let's hope the plan is better than the preview.

-
-

Thanks for your responses under Is Resisting Trump Enough

16

"As for Iraq and Syria, my language of being prepared to deal with it means in essence not getting caught by surprise the way we did with the growth of ISIS."

Um, no actually.
Being prepared to deal with it means intervention.
Your choice of language does not seem to be implying that the US needs a cogent press release ready to go.

Again, Iraq and Syria are not our property.
They are sovereign nations.
The US is not entitled to meddle in their control over their own countries... and I would hope that all the focus on the Russia meddling in the US stuff would make it clear that a blatantly hypocritical stance for the Middle East remains problematic.
We don't like it or accept it, right?

Our track record of making things worse, not better, is clear.
We need to stop.

And, for the record, not only were we aware that US armed and trained "moderate" rebels in Syria were joining ISIS or whatever they were calling themselves at the time, we were also aware that our "allies" like Saudi Arabia were funding them too.
That "caught by surprise" bit actually amounts to historical revisionism by omission. We may have been surprised that the US policy went so badly awry, but we were aware.

-
-

15

"Reality-based is reality-based."
"As for my idea of compromise, here you go"

I'm sorry, but your reality is a fantasy.
The public option isn't even supported by the Wall Street coddling corporate Democrats.
Repubs will NEVER support it.

I did watch the NewsHour Bernie bit.
I think you're confusing good politics with reality there.
Not only is the public option outside the realm of reality with the current Congress, but so is reducing prescription drug prices.
Bernie was clever in having an answer ready for the "What can you work with Repubs on?" question, but I seriously doubt he actually believes they would support either effort.
He used Trump's empty campaign promise in order to pretend it is possible, but it was Repubs (with the help of corporate Dems) who made it illegal for Medicare to negotiate with pharma companies.
Most Dems are in their pocket, but Repubs bought their suits.
That is our current reality.

As far as the "compromise" bill that is actually possible to pass, see what Chuck Schumer and Neera Tanden from CAP (the DLC "progressive" thinkish tank) had to say
- they want Dems to support Republican efforts to give billions more in subsidies to the price gouging health insurance companies in order to "stabilize" the insurance markets and actually do what they were supposed to do under Obamacare, but weaseled out of by withdrawing from whole markets in order to create monopolies for the sole remaining insurer who could then raise prices without fears of any competition.
Any bets on whether they'll take the money and find new loopholes?
Is helping Repubs to pass that going to help Dems win back voters?
No.

Compare-

We stopped Republicans from passing disastrous legislation that only 16% of Americans supported which would have kicked 32 million people off their health insurance while doubling prices people pay, all while destroying Medicare and giving massive tax cuts to the rich.

to

We worked with Republicans to give exploitive health insurance companies billions more in subsidies.

Which of those makes the better campaign ad for Dems in 2018?

So, why are you supporting the idea of Dems backing a compromise bill?
Or, were you revoking support for a compromise unless it includes a public option?

"What changes do you think could be passed with the current Congress?"

I already answered that... NONE that would be good for most Americans.

It is better politics and policy for Dems to prevent any "fixes", or let the Repubs and Trump have a victory that would distract from the massive disaster that was DonTcare.

That's assuming that Dems want to win some elections of course.

A

It was released by Bernie Sanders office; its the Byrd Rule decisions, which effectively saw the limbs off for the conservatives.

https://www.budget.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Background%20on%20Byrd%20Rule%20decisions_7.211.pdf

It's about that pesky 60 vote deal.

I'm not predicting it, but I wouldn't be surprised if Don Jr. did not appear next week.

All this echoing of the "pardons" hysteria, added into the Mueller references and inquiry into conflicts is headlines bait. It's hardly nefarious nor predictive.

For the first time, events and leaks indicate that the lawyers are starting to do what a solid defense team should do. Among those things are making sure there are no thumbs on the scale on the prosecution's side. And also, advising the client about his jeopardy and his rights.

In order to represent average citizens a candidate's campaign must be financed by average citizens.

I believe what you meant to say was:

In order to represent average citizens a candidate's campaign must ONLY be financed by average citizens who are not allowed to offer more financial support than the bare minimum to someone they believe in?

If you vote against the Big Money candidates, including writing in your own name if no small contribution candidates are on the ballot, then you will be able to elect small contribution candidates and/or create and demonstrate demand for small contribution candidates enabling you to elect small contribution candidates in future elections.

Are you going to assume that anyone that writes in a candidate is taking a stand for small contribution candidates? How, exactly, does writing in my name on the ballot demonstrate a demand for anything???

What prevents someone from forming a SuperPAC on behalf of one of your OnDemand candidates, even if the candidate objects to it? If my company sees you as representing the same goals that we do, does my running ads supporting you violate your rules?

I have technically spent some Big Money from a small inheritance to set up and advertise One Demand. But this is chump change by Big Money standards. In fact, the entire inheritance is chump change by Big Money standards.

But how can this be?! According to you, anyone that accepts even "chump change by Big Money standards" cannot be trusted. NEWS FLASH: One Demand sold out! This is what happens when you cannot live up to the demand you expect others to adhere to!

Hehehehehe

Now THAT was funny!!! :D

I am at that.. :D

Touche' :D

Why did you re-brand Voucher Vendetta (which pops near the top in a Google search) as OneDemand (which doesn't)?

I admire your altruism to wager any part of a small inheritance on high-in-the-food chain political reform. Wouldn't it make more sense, expected value wise, to invest the money in the Power Ball lotto (or such like) in hopes of using your winnings to build a much more effective reform movement?

Michale hit on the key- holding the candidates to the standard we espouse.

Yer REALLY lookin' to be a human pinata around here, ain'tcha?? :D

This basically a Democratic dog whistle tuned to white hearing. Trump's key demographic is meant to hear: "Trump is a fraud, he's throwing more water in your sinking boat. People of color are meant to hear: "A rising tide floats all the boats, first things first, things won't get more equal until we get off the reef."

Look White Without Looking Overtly Racist.

The target group is voters in the 45 and up age demographic - who were in the work force, or grew up during the 1950's thru 1970's. People with direct experience of a time when jobs paid well, and education, housing, health care and energy were relatively much more affordable. If you are in this demographic, you are likely to feel economically marginalized, and this includes a lot people of color.

But I think the point Don is trying to make is that BIG MONEY is the root of all the problems..

Sure, there are very isolated possibilities, whereas someone who gets BIG MONEY can still maintain their integrity... And someone who JUST relies on small dollar donations goes rogue..

But, by and large, BIG MONEY is the problem..

Something we ALL can agree on..

The problem arises when the majority of ya'all don't hold your candidates to the standard that ya'all espouse...

you misunderstand. the trouble is that former legislators are offered lucrative lobbying positions by the firms that lobbied them. every congress critter knows that if they play ball with lobbyists while they are in office the firm will offer them a big money job after they leave office. that form of legalized corruption has nothing to do with large or small campaign contributions.

JL

Under the leadership of former Obama official Tom Perez, a new FEC report reveals the DNC finished the month of June $3.3 million in debt.

They’re broke. Just like their policies.
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/07/rough-financial-shape-new-fec-report-shows-dnc-finished-june-3-3-million-debt/

:D

I guess "Have you seen the other guys!?" is the best it's gonna get.. :D

Apples and orangutans..

Lobbyists enter the picture *AFTER* the campaign is won..

But the funny thing is.... WHO pays the lobbyists??

The wealthy campaign contributors...

:D

all that said, the legislator to lobbyist pipeline has a lot more impact than the wealth of campaign contributors.

JL

https://www.wsj.com/articles/our-self-interested-senators-1500592123

Here ya go... :D Don't say I never give ya anything. :D

Yep... Yep... Yep....

Something that Weigantians constantly accuse Right Wingers of, but DEFEND Left Wingers who do it...

So the right-wing rags have already started writing the articles that paint Kamala Harris as a loose woman.

Nope, they are just relaying the facts on Harris sleeping her way up the ladder and her times as a mistress to various married men..

If that makes her a "loose woman" in your book, I accept your designation..

But it's an old story.. Dumbocrats never had any use for morals or integrity.. :D

Here's the point about President Trump that ya'all don't get..

With enemies like the President has, he doesn't NEED any friends. :D

Huh???

I have been saying this since even BEFORE the election and NO ONE told me that it was a "good idea"... :D

Democrats need to get rid of identity politics if they want to win elections..

It's nice to see that the Democrat Party has finally agreed with me on that.. :D

Not conforming to the left/right debate and fighting for ordinary middle-class Americans certainly sounds like a good thing, but it remains to be seen what it will translate into.

Given the Democrat Party's history of trying to "relate" to "ordinary middle-class Americans"...... :D

A free clue for Dumbocrats..

Don't attack them and call them names..

That's if you define "centrist" as "beholden to Wall Street," which (at this point) seems pretty accurate, at least in the Democratic Party.

Once again, something I have been saying for YEARS now and am always resoundingly attacked for it.. :D

Chanting "Russia, Russia, Russia!" isn't going to change any Trump voter's mind, because they'll already be disillusioned with Trump (possibly for very different reasons). So even though the Post article was just a peek into the Democrats' new strategy, it certainly seems like Democrats have already learned this lesson. Offer the voters something positive, because everyone likes voting for something new, not just against something that obviously isn't working.

You assume that WaPoop is accurate in it's leaks..

That is a very dangerous assumption to make..

We'll know Monday.. :D

What makes a politician that only accepts small donations more honest than those that accept any sized donations?

They '-D' after their name...

At least, according to ya'all....

Honesty and integrity are not determined by the size of a donation the person accepts and your claim to the contrary only serves to discredit your movement.

I'll remind you of that the next time ya'all whine and complain about big money in elections... :D

I thought they already unveiled their 2018 message..

"Have you seen the other guys!!"

and

"TRUMP!! RUSSIA!! TRUMP!! RUSSIA!! TRUMP!! RUSSIA!! TRUMP!! RUSSIA!! TRUMP!! RUSSIA!!

:D

"It's funny because it's true... "
-Homer Simpson

:D

Taking the most excellent point of LWYH (well done, sir) in [2] above and adding a few more questions for you to ponder:

* What if there was a candidate who refused to take any campaign contributions at all? Not just give it lip service like the current Liar-in-Chief who is the "debt king" (Trump's own description) but actually refused to take ANY contributions in order to fund their campaign... examples being Michael Bloomberg, Mark Cuban, Mark Zuckerberg, etc. Would the fact that these candidates took zero campaign contributions make them the most honest and/or possessing the most integrity?

* In anticipation of your answer to the questions above, must this ideal candidate of yours also be of modest means AND refuse to take only small campaign contributions... making your "One Demand" be more like "Two Demands"?

Thanks for answering... I hope. :)

What makes a politician that only accepts small donations more honest than those that accept any sized donations?

Without that it doesn't matter whether they present a progressive, centrist, populist or any other direction and the purely economic message will just be more promises they have no intention of keeping.

Seriously, how can you claim that a candidate who accepts donations larger than what you are comfortable with is dishonest and cannot be trusted based solely on that factor?

Wouldn't it make sense that a candidate having to appease a much larger number of individuals in order to secure the amount of donations needed to run a campaign is more likely to make promises that they won't be able to keep?

What prevents your candidates from accepting the gifts from lobbyists or being bought by corporations once they are in office?

Honesty and integrity are not determined by the size of a donation the person accepts and your claim to the contrary only serves to discredit your movement.