Cite???

Considering what happens to people who even THINK about advocating a position that is not Left Wing solid, do ya'all really WONDER why there aren't more presenting a counter opinion???

First, you're citing the Washington Post?
Have a little self respect.

Of course... That eliminates an avenue of argument that you Left Winers love to use..

I think JL calls it Ad Homeniem Fallacy Bigus Dorkus or some such thing like that.. :D

Second, when a study needs to be called "very credible", there's usually a problem.

So, we can ignore all the "very credible" global warming studies, then right?? :D

That study was torn to shreds by another study, and don't forget, the people like the Washington Post pushing it have some credibility issues... even when they briefly serve your agenda.

Actually, the study that disputed this newer study had a much more limited group than the new study..

Face the facts, sunshine..

If you force small business owners to pay more for the same work, hourly workers are going to get fired..

It's that simple.. :D

Diversity on the right will come. There's an interesting and telling discussion arising from a broader article in The New Yorker, named "America's Future Is Texas." (The links can all be found here: https://www.texastribune.org/2017/07/05/lawrence-wright-straus-bathroom-bill-comment/ ).

Over the trans-gender bathroom bill, the state Administration presented the Speaker of the House with legally crafted legislative language spelling out the limits of how far they would go. The Speaker's reply:

"I’m not a lawyer, but I am a Texan," Straus said. "I’m disgusted by all this. Tell the lieutenant governor I don’t want the suicide of a single Texan on my hands."

Could it be that a practicing Christian was moved by testimony during the debate? There's little doubt that the wizards in the Echo Chamber could have produced counter-claims and -studies by nightfall to provide cover for the partisans in Austin or Washington. Safe under the cacophony of fraudulent defense, many seem to feel free to do the right thing for the agenda, even if truly and broadly immoral, and contrary to Christian teachings and common decency. Many do so, but not all. Fewer do so, in ones and twos, all the time.

At least for now, on this, count Republican Speaker Joe Straus among the decent.

Manchin has a primary challenger... not sure about the rest yet.

But that "great way to test it" hinges on neutrality from the DNC and the establishment, and they are anything but neutral. They put their thumb on the scale. And they aren't just helping their preferred candidates, they're attacking challengers with slimy tactics.

When Tim Canova challenged Debbie Wasserman Shultz, not only did millions pour in from the establishment for her, Hillary, Obama, Biden and numerous other figures in the establishment rallied to protect her... the woman who lost her job running the DNC for valid reasons.

But it's not just incumbents.
Progressive candidates running for open seats face the same corrupt dynamic.
Right wing corporatist Dems want their ideology to keep prevailing, and don't play fair... it is not "let the one with the best ideas win". It is not "let's do what's best for the party" either... it's "let's do what's best for right wing corporatist Dems and their donors".

That mentality, which was glaringly on display in the presidential primaries as well, is hurting Dems and preventing them from embracing needed changes.

A

First, you're citing the Washington Post?
Have a little self respect.

Second, when a study needs to be called "very credible", there's usually a problem.

That study was torn to shreds by another study, and don't forget, the people like the Washington Post pushing it have some credibility issues... even when they briefly serve your agenda.

I'm not holding my breath... but the Big Money controlling both parties is lying to you about the minimum wage... not for valid economic/job growth reasons, but in order to maintain their personal profits... as an independent, I hope you question their claims and look into the issue thoroughly some day.
Just to put it into terms you may embrace, adjusted for inflation, the majority of white men haven't seen an increase in their incomes since 1972 despite the steady increases in productivity.
All the gains are going to the top, and it is their economic policies that are chiefly responsible, not illegal immigrants, homosexuals or minorities.

A

My feelings exactly.
I'd put money on it.

That said Elizabeth Warren wouldn't endorse Bernie, and she isn't as far left on the economic issues.
Hard to tell if that's catering to her electorate or personal ideology.

I appreciate your comments thereafter as well.

A

So, to continue [re 47]: But even as the issue of institutionalized corruption (for instance, the continuing fallout of the 'Citizen's United' ruling) gets ignored by a hamstrung and timid legislature, our rapid ideological balkanization, which has sent so many into hilariously sycophantic 'safe zones' on Reddit, also needs to be a part of our dialogue, because the latter has a HUGE effect on the former, and extremism isn't usually the path to meaningful (or mutual) anti-corruption policy.

For the record, I'm glad that there's a wide variety of opinion here. That keeps me coming back. Could use a little more diversity on the right, tho...

Do you see the inherent illogic and irrationality of your argument?? On the one hand, you deride and ridicule Left Wing candidates who can only win in "liberal enclaves".

To the contrary: many of those liberals are among my favorites. I'm rather questioning the premise that a Bernie-style liberal could win, say, Montana more handily than Tester, who has built a level of trust among his constituents by staying closer to the center. The problem with 'purity' tests is that they're not very location-specific. And politics is very location specific, as you know.

Yet you hysterically tout NOT-45's win in the LIBERALIST of liberal enclaves as the ONLY thing that has meaning in the 2016 Presidential election..

You mean that she won in California, which has the 6th (or 7th) largest economy in the world? Yeah, that matters too.

Y'see, in the end, at the national level, whether on Trump's or Schumer's end, you have represent ALL of the people in your party, and ultimately in the whole country, not just your own narrow constituency. Extremists at both ends would prefer that their parties focus on THEIR concerns, not only because its their comfort zone, but also because reaching compromise with the 'enemy' is akin to betrayal in their minds. And because, despite their best efforts to the contrary, this system isn't parliamentary, and that just locks everything up. And that's what Americans are really angry about.

So yeah, I'll take hits from both sides, because the 'squishy' center is where the action is, and the alternative is inaction, or extremism in either direction. The people I talk to outside this forum don't give a shit about ideology, they just want someone to improve their lives without disrupting them all to hell.

the issue isn't ideology, it's legalized corruption. yes, there's a difference between the two parties, but let's face it, people like don tend to vote their interests pretty narrowly, and won't be swayed by appeals to any "bigger picture."

also, that last paragraph injected ethnicity where it wasn't necessary. cuts to healthcare, food stamps, minimum wage and public schools will adversely affect non-wealthy people of all ethnic backgrounds.

JL

Until people like CW stop with the Trump tweets and distraction issues and focus on fixing the system it won't matter if the Democrats win or lose because they still won't represent us.

But it isn't about YOU, it's about those poor folks at bus stops in the early morning cold, who would have to suffer Republican policies for another couple of years because of your perception that Dems weren't 'listening' hard enough to you.

No difference between the parties? Tell that to the black or hispanic mother of three who is right now watching the news and contemplating losing her Medicaid, food stamps, minimum wage hike, and local not-for-profit school, among other things. I'd bet she's not worried about ideological purity.

ask her in public on the record, and she'll put out all the big tent inclusivity spin that lefties are known for. ask her in private off the record, and my money says she sheepishly acknowledges that the party gears treat real libs like the third wheel.

JL

Do you see the inherent illogic and irrationality of your argument??

On the one hand, you deride and ridicule Left Wing candidates who can only win in "liberal enclaves"..

Yet you hysterically tout NOT-45's win in the LIBERALIST of liberal enclaves as the ONLY thing that has meaning in the 2016 Presidential election..

In other words, you are talking out both sides of your ass, depending on which argument you want to make...

Kinda detracts from the credibility of EITHER argument, don'tcha think?? :D

I'm just sayin...

Ask Elizabeth Warren if that's true.

There's a great way to test that theory built right into every contest: put candidates up against those sitting Senators in primaries. I'm sure that Manchin, McCaskill or Tester would welcome a challenger from the left in the primaries, which would help them position themselves as centrists in the General.

Typical Leftist media.. :^/

"When the far left can demonstrate it can win seats outside the liberal enclaves, I'm sure that party leadership would be happy and eager to pay more attention to them. Until then we have a midterm election to win."

This, coming from the guy who claims that NOT-45's win in the LIBERALIST of "liberal enclaves" actually has some meaning..

Either wins in a "liberal enclave" means something??

or it doesn't...

Which is it???

A

Yea??

A ‘very credible’ new study on Seattle’s $15 minimum wage has bad news for liberals

On the whole, the study estimates, the average low-wage worker in the city lost $125 a month because of the hike in the minimum.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/06/26/new-study-casts-doubt-on-whether-a-15-minimum-wage-really-helps-workers/?utm_term=.294c58515cb7

The *FACTS* say otherwise..

You remember FACTS, right??

I know, I know... You don't have much use for them...

But that doesn't make them any less factual...

He's got a point, Balthy...

Democrats have continued to lose since 2010...

The problem is that Democrats have put all their eggs in the Identity Politics basket and simply CANNOT put any Middle Class Working Americans in that same basket. They are simply NOT compatible.

I know, I know, the Party hopes that EVENTUALLY minorities will outnumber everyone else and THEN, so the thinking goes, Democrat Party will be in like Flynn...

The problem with that line of reasoning is that the vast majority of legal minority voters ARE Middle Class Americans before they are black or brown or yellow or whatever...

And, the facts clearly show that THOSE voters are not basing their vote on who caters to their ethnicity but rather who caters to their economic well-being..

And THAT is CLEARLY not the Democrat Party...

In short, the Democrat Party needs to jettison Identity Politics or they will never win another meaningful election...

Pure fiction.

A

"D'ya think I missed that? Fact is, the whole premise is fallacious..."

Sure Hillary... you looked up and linked to the transcript to "prove" he didn't say "Bernie was right", and then added the "not once" emphasis because you were completely on the ball.
Is lying to yourself convincing?
It's not working for me.
And, no, it's not remotely fallacious... Bernie's whole campaign was about an economic agenda to help average Americans.
What premise are you arguing?

"God forbid that Manchin's West Virginian voters should be listened to any more than Bernie's Vermont voters"
"So Schumer has no choice but to listen to Manchin, and also Heitkamp of N. Dakota, Donnely of Indiana, McCaskill of Missouri, Tester of Montana, and Balwin of Wisconsin. You're dreaming if you think any of those folks want the party to take a hard left right now, and it doesn't make any sense to put them in unnecessary political jeopardy, either"

First of all, only a right wing neoliberal would falsely call policies that favor the working class "hard left".
Second, Bernie won all of the states you listed handedly, except Missouri... which he lost by 0.2 points. The Democrats in those states seem to prefer his economic agenda... and significantly, independents do too.

The notion that right wing, Wall Street coddling neoliberals running Republican-lite campaigns are necessary to win in those states is dubious at best.

As for your excuses about corporate Dems voting with Republicans, let's take Corey Booker as a test case.
He recently announced that he would "pause" his fundraising from Big Pharma due to the massive wave of criticism he faced for that "symbolic" vote with Republicans.
Why?
Because Democrats are furious about that bullspit, and he wants to be reelected.
Of course, he was lambasted for the pathetically weak "pause" announcement too, but even he can see the writing on the wall.
Why can't you?

"I don't always agree with Chris"

Nor do you recognize you are out of step with the majority of Democrats it seems... or care about the consequences for pushing policies that hurt Dems.
But you were still bashing a comedian for agreeing with CW as if his position was radical, when it's obviously not.

"You're overselling. Bernie was a known and liked Senator when he first announced."

False.
His name recognition in many states, particularly in the south, was extremely low.
You really should stop talking out of your rear.

"democratic fundraising" is not DNC fundraising genius.
Nice straw man attempt though.
All that effort and you couldn't even look up the number under discussion... or did you, and you just couldn't bear admitting I was right?

"When the far left can demonstrate that it can win seats outside of liberal enclaves, I'm sure that party leadership would be happy and eager to pay more attention to them."

Right wing corporatist Dems have yet to demonstrate they can stop losing, and the party refusing to provide comparable support to progressive candidates does help create a self-fulfilling prophecy. But you are either lying or ignorant with that "happy and eager" bit. The corporate Democrats who control the party have made it abundantly clear they are not eager to embrace real progressives.

And again, your mischaracterization of FDR type policies as "far left" is dishonest.
But see above for the reality about the vital states in contention. People like you clinging to a fantasy is what is hurting Dems.

"Until then, we've go a midterm election to win."

You got a mouse in your pocket?

A

You just CAN'T admit that the Left Wingery is getting played...

Can't refute the message so attack the messenger..

CHECK...

The Left Wing and their MSM lapdogs are so easily manipulated...

TRANSLATION:
Know your place, stoopid people!! :D

I love blue on blue wars.. :D

71,000 workers will get raises phased in through 2024.

And, if it's like Seattle, those SAME workers will lose about $125 a month BECAUSE of the "raise"....

Who could have POSSIBLY predicted this would happen!!??

Oh... Wait....

Way to miss the obvious about the title.
Hint- It wasn't a quote.

D'ya think I missed that? Fact is, the whole premise is fallacious, though a good attempt at spin.

And Dore didn't "dismiss" Schumer listening to Manchin, he mocked it mercilessly, and justifiably.

Oh, yeah, God forbid that Manchin's West Virginian voters should be listened to any more than Bernie's Vermont voters.

So let me tell you why Chuck might do that. Next year's midterms don't look great for Democrats on paper: the GOP will be defending just eight seats, while Democrats will have to fight for 23 — plus the two held by independents who caucus with Democrats. To take back the Senate, Democrats will not only have to pick up four previously Republican seats, but hold on to every seat they currently hold. Senators from blue states don't look like they're in any significant danger, but eleven (almost half) are from states that Trump won.

So Schumer has no choice but to listen to Manchin, and also Heitkamp of N. Dakota, Donnely of Indiana, McCaskill of Missouri, Tester of Montana, and Balwin of Wisconsin. You're dreaming if you think any of those folks want the party to take a hard left right now, and it doesn't make any sense to put them in unnecessary political jeopardy, either.

I'm not the least bit surprised you prefer that Schumer listen to Booker and Manchin, who voted with pharma coddling Republicans to block cheaper imported drugs from Canada.

Of course, there's more to that story. According to Politifact (Jan 18, 2017), you're probably referring to a vote taken Jan. 11, in which 13 Democratic Senators voted against a bill that, in addition to bunches of things completely unrelated to pharma, would have encouraged importation of drugs from Canada.

Thing is, says Politifact:

"The vote was more symbolic than substantive. It was an amendment to a Senate budget resolution, which is a non-binding measure that doesn’t get signed by the president or become law. Rather, they set a framework for committee chairs to work within when deciding how to spend money."

"Simply put, if adopted by the Senate, the amendment would not have required the United States to begin importing drugs from Canada -- period, full stop," said Jeff Giertz, communications director for Booker.

Then, all 13 Dems who had voted against that bill voted for an alternative bill (S.Amdt.188 to S.Con.Res.3) that would have also recommended the importation of drugs from Canada, but under different rules. That amendment also lost, anyway.

Trump serves as rocket fuel for Democratic fundraising - POLITICO

House Dems Smash Fundraising Records Ahead of Midterms - NBC News

Could it be that the Democratic base is unhappy with their "leaders"?

Or is the left simply asserting itself as the answer, as it often does following a Democratic electoral loss? When the far left can demonstrate that it can win seats outside of liberal enclaves, I'm sure that party leadership would be happy and eager to pay more attention to them. Until then, we've go a midterm election to win.

when i was a teenager i wanted to try to brew hard cider, but a decent cider press was really expensive, so my granddad decided to steer me toward brewing beer. little did he know, the love affair that would blossom... (sing along if you know the words)

https://youtu.be/6amlgpzMM58

alas, until the craft brewing craze of the last decade or so, american beer tradition has ranged from mediocre to downright undrinkable. so, i hope everyone broke with tradition and had a high quality brew with their 4th of july bbq.

JL

OK, now THAT was funny!

Heh...

-CW

http://tinyurl.com/y7cx3rzs

:-)

-CW

If we're going to get all fifth-grade-humor, how about (from the mid-1980s, obviously):

Q: What's Prince Charles' favorite US state?
A: Indiana!

Heh.

-CW

Just had to say, I still miss The McLaughlin Group. Pat Buchanan is an absolute Nazi on domestic policy, but on foreign policy I often found myself agreeing with him...

-CW

My favorite bit of fake US history: Johnny Appleseed existed, but if he really did what he is purported to have done, he was doing it for a very different reason.

Apples that people eat are almost all grown on grafted trees. This is not new technology -- it was also the way eating apples were grown when Appleseed was around. You just can't be sure they're going to be tasty enough by planting seeds -- the flavor varies widely, and many are not really all that edible.

But there's one use of apples where it doesn't really matter...

Frontiersmen (and frontierswomen) used alcohol as barter, for centuries. Look into the reasons behind the Whiskey Rebellion for proof.

But whiskey (or simple corn squeezins) is relatively tough to make. Requires lots of copper tubing, and knowledge of distilling.

However, there's an easier way. Hard cider. All you need is an apple tree, a cider press, a jug, and some time for fermentation. Viola! Hard cider.

And the apples you use don't have to be all that edible or tasty.

Kinda puts Johnny Appleseed (seeded apple trees were just fine for hard cider) in a different light, eh?

:-)

-CW

-CW

For me, this was the best monologue style joke. A Russian is at customs entering a Baltic state.

Agent: Name?

Russian [in Boris Badinoff voice]: Vladimir Putin.

Agent: Occupation?

Putin: No, just visiting.

Public radio station broadcast schedule and downloadable mp3 at http://www.capsteps.com/radio/

Minneapolis just passed a $15 minimum wage on Friday.

71,000 workers will get raises phased in through 2024.

-
-

Meanwhile, Republicans in Missouri just passed legislation that will overturn the minimum wage increase in St. Louis and prevent any other cities from having local control.

Workers there will see the minimum wage cut from $10.10 per hour back to $7.70

A

Way to miss the obvious about the title.
Hint- It wasn't a quote.

And Dore didn't "dismiss" Schumer listening to Manchin, he mocked it mercilessly, and justifiably.

I'm not the least bit surprised you prefer that Schumer listen to Booker and Manchin, who voted with pharma coddling Republicans to block cheaper imported drugs from Canada.
Do you think you're scoring points for bashing a comedian for doing what our radical lefty host CW did in these pages?
Have you forgotten he gave them a MDDOTW award for that exact thing?
Why listen to the voters when you can put the interests of lobbyists first right?

You sure got me with that Bernie bit though... with him only getting 46% of Dems supporting him despite starting with near zero national name recognition and Hillary having a 60 point lead, with Bernie facing a massive smear campaign, and facing DNC election rigging efforts for which the chairwoman and four others lost their jobs... all while making Bernie the most popular politician in the country.

DNC lawyers are now arguing in court they are legally entitled to cheat, but you will support the corrupt status quo and point to their "win" as proof of something.
Better to lose to Republicans than win with a progressive right?

Did you catch that the last two were the two worst fundraising months for the DNC since the beginning of the Iraq war?

Why do you think that is?
Could it be that the Democratic base is unhappy with their "leaders"?
Are you out of touch with your own party?

A

VERY good read....

Very good read...if you need a good heaping helping of fear-mongering & bigotry, sprinkled with xenophobia.

Among the issues on which we Americans are at war with one another – abortion, homosexuality, same-sex marriage, white cops, black crime, Confederate monuments, LGBT rights, affirmative action.

Did ya notice which group is listed three separate times? I feel so special!!! Anyone else think Buchanan's "war" with homosexuality is his own attempt to hide the truth?

He to John Jay's words in Federalist No. 2

In the first line of the Declaration of Independence of July 4, 1776, Thomas Jefferson speaks of “one people.” The Constitution, agreed upon by the Founding Fathers in Philadelphia in 1789, begins, “We the people …”

In Federalist No. 2, John Jay writes of them as “one united people … descended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same religion, attached to the same principles of government, very similar in their manners and customs. …

John Jay was many things, but a sociologist he clearly WAS NOT!

The colonies were not a monolith. Not everyone came from the same country, not everyone spoke English, and not everyone went to the same church! Buchanan is being dishonest because he is not an idiot. If Buchanan wants to focus on statements that were meant to be more symbolic than literal, to mislead the uneducated so that they are afraid of their own shadows, that's on him.

Watched that Jimmie Dore segment. There's 24 minutes I'll never get back (and why I don't take political advice from lounge comics). Then I went to the transcript of Schumer's appearance, and....nope, he never said "Bernie was right". Not once. He did say that he was listening to both the left and right wings of the party (in the form of Sanders and Joe Manchin), which Dore was quick to dismiss - can't have a party leader listen to his whole party now, can you?

I did like the part where the ginger guy suggests that all Schumer 'needs to do' is listen to Bernie Sanders (Sanders, you recall, couldn't even get a majority of Democrats to support him over Hillary).

And NOT, by the way, listen to virtually any other Democrat: Dore has previously attacked MSNBC hosts, Corey Booker, even (the far better comedian) Al Franken. Nope. Only unaffiliated (and apparently, unelectable) liberals need apply.

Like I said, 24 minutes wasted. poof!

Such lapses wouldn't survive one of today's news cycles, certainly. heh.

Democrats really are in a hole and still digging.

I have been saying that for a year now...

Heh :D

Yeah.
Sorry about that :)

The content really is what makes him palatable.

He did two recent clips interviewing Tim Canova who is running again to replace Debbie Wasserman Shultz that are worth checking out.

But his takedown of Chuck Schumer's recent announcement on This Week that Democrats need an economic plan is spot on, and even occasionally funny.

Chuck Schumer Admits Bernie Was Right

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QOU6e7M_jc

Democrats really are in a hole and still digging.

A

First 4th I plan on enjoying immensely in a LONG time! :D

VERY good read....

45 is a bit of a Runyon character in many ways - the brash New Yorker, the built in tragedy, and the crazy storyline - although even Runyon wouldn't have written a story about Harry the Horse becoming President - nobody would have believed that one!

If you can get through the Jimmy Dore preamble, this clip has a message from Dylan Ratigan that is topically relevant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRVeh18P5fI

You may recall, Ratigan was fired by MSNBC for speaking the truth about financial fraud on Wall Street.

A

apple pie is most likely english, or perhaps dutch. there were apple pie recipes published in england over a hundred years before columbus.

JL