http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-investigations/2016/10/21/va-touts-patient-satisfaction-but-its-findings-questionable/91491528/

JL

Do you have data to support a 5:1 ratio of negative to positive, or are you just blowing smoke? I have looked for studies on success rates but haven't found anything conclusive.

Of COURSE it does good work.. No one is disputing that..

The problem is, it doesn't OFTEN work..

If you don't believe me I'll track down some of the success stories for you.

And for every success story, I can point to 5 horror stories.

No one is claiming that the VA never does ANY good..

The claim is that it's not run very well and is indicative of how bad government run health care is crap..

One only has to look at TrainWreckCare to know this is true..

And I *KNOW* ya'all are ALL about scientific studies.. :D

Couple that with the disaster that is the VA and the case against government run health insurance is clear...

"Crystal....
-Tom Cruise, A FEW GOOD MEN

:D

You have your studies and the other side has their studies..

YOUR studies are right and THEIR studies are wrong. :D

that's science-speak for 'inconclusive' - the reason it was inconclusive is because they didn't control for poverty.

however, as the kff review of research shows, controlled studies have found that previously uninsured newcomers to medicaid report improved outcomes both in their health and their finances.

JL

Ah I see "access" was not the best choice of words. I quite agree with you.

Someone on the Left who thinks rationally and logically!

Who would have thunked it!! :D

heh

Still false, for the reasons I stated above, and because your statement translates into english as:

The facts say otherwise..

Oregon Study: Medicaid 'Had No Significant Effect' On Health Outcomes vs. Being Uninsured
https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2013/05/02/oregon-study-medicaid-had-no-significant-effect-on-health-outcomes-vs-being-uninsured/#1440d4d60430

I know of MANY people who have such high deductibles that they can't afford to go to the doctor.. They say they might as well not even HAVE healthcare..

EVERYONE has 'access' to healthcare... It's called the emergency room... :D

The key is to making the healthcare affordable... Once it is, access takes care of itself.."

Ah I see "access" was not the best choice of words. I quite agree with you.

They really have an over-inflated view of just how far the money they pay in taxes actually covers. Devon likes to hand people a penny -- as a refund -- when they complain that their taxes pays for his paycheck and they aren't happy.

A penny! *LOL* THAT is hilarious. :)

Republicans will ignore that a program may help thousands of people with disabilities and focus on the fear of some "undeserving moocher" benefitting from their hard earned tax dollars.

Heck, in just about any discussion on immigration you will eventually hear someone bring up how illegals take advantage of free medical care that their tax dollars pay for.

They really have an over-inflated view of just how far the money they pay in taxes actually covers. Devon likes to hand people a penny -- as a refund -- when they complain that their taxes pays for his paycheck and they aren't happy.

Shouldn't that be:

Republicans got together to write a tax-cut bill, and the destruction of healthcare broke out...

Yes, thank you, CW!

EXACTLY what I was trying to say. :)

Liz [19],

Oh, I was just using Republican's views on welfare as one example of how conservative ideology makes it highly unlikely that we will ever get the majority of Republicans to support for any program designed to benefit ALL Americans.

Look no further than Michale ranting on here for an example of this:

That means don't force men to purchase maternity or gynecological insurance...

That means don't force people to buy something they don't want or need...

Insurance keeps costs down by pooling large numbers of plans together so everyone pays a little of the costs. You don't get to have a la carte coverage. The closest thing to that would be to not have any insurance and just paying with cash whenever you need a doctor.

Just like ya'all's accusations about Trump are drawn from SINGLE anonymous sources...

Funny how SINGLE sources are fine if they suit ya'all's agenda... :D

Claims to know everyone's sources and expects to be taken seriously. *LOL* :)

Shouldn't that be:

Republicans got together to write a tax-cut bill, and the destruction of healthcare broke out...

?

Heh. I've always liked that hockey game quote, myself.

:-)

-CW

Happy Birthday, Don!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrXBATtOtFY

Obviously, I meant Medicaid being block granted to the states on a per capita basis.

Yes, yes, and totally right. Y'all are making too much sense.

Republicans and health care? It reminds me of that joke: I went to a fight, and a hockey game broke out.

Republicans formulated a health care plan and a tax cut for the rich showed up. :)

Does it surprise anyone at all that the Republicans' idea of a "health care plan" cuts a trillion dollars out of Medicare and block grants it back to the states on a per capita basis? Anyone?

And a great many of the GOP faithful are happy as a pig in mud because they're finally going to do away with that darned Obamacare that insures "poor people," thanking their lucky stars that they themselves are covered by the ACA. I'm not kidding; they actually believe this.

Still false, for the reasons I stated above, and because your statement translates into english as:

"Insurance offers no benefits over having no insurance.."

Because that's all Medicaid is: insurance. For a lot of folks, the doctors are the same, the hospital is exactly the same, the ailments are similarly treated.

It's simple.. At one point in time, Don rose to my defense over some such point or issue and was mercilessly and ruthlessly attacked by several Weigantians..

Every since that time, he has had a hard time gaining traction here..

OMG... Spew alert!

Elizabeth makes a very good point about Don, and guess who explains that "it's simple" and all about him?

Again, you got ONE VA story..

And you somehow think that applies to the entire VA!??

*ONLY* because it suits your partisan agenda...

those are not facts, they are conclusions drawn from one study.

Just like ya'all's accusations about Trump are drawn from SINGLE anonymous sources...

Funny how SINGLE sources are fine if they suit ya'all's agenda... :D

Re: "Medicaid is worse than no insurance." Wow, is that ever bullshit.

No, it's not bullshit, it's misquoted..

Medicaid offers no benefits over having no insurance...

If you agree then fine..

"Most research demonstrates that Medicaid expansion positively impacts access to care and utilization of health care services among the low-income population, but some studies have not identified significant effects in these areas."

http://www.kff.org/medicaid/issue-brief/the-effects-of-medicaid-expansion-under-the-aca-updated-findings-from-a-literature-review/

JL

Okay, let's start with the VA: my father used the VA. Got surgeries, treatments, glasses, medicine, loved it. Looked forward to his visits, which made it more popular with him than most things my mother made him go to.

Re: "Medicaid is worse than no insurance." Wow, is that ever bullshit. Here's a story: while in NY once, I felt serious stabby pains in my chest, and went to the local emergency room. Several hours later I learned that my heart was fine, but that my stomach was truly giving me bad reviews, and needed to be more regularly tended with antacids. That piece of advice cost me several thousand dollars.

Right now in America, lots of folks are stuck with no insurance for one reason or another, and have to rely on emergency rooms for basic healthcare needs, like a painful elbow, or sore throat, that might be better, and more economically served in a clinic.

Needless to say, for the very poor, many of those bills go unpaid. For those that do play by the rules and pay, they're charged at higher rates than richer insured patients for similar services.

If you think that it isn't cheaper to insure clinical visits rather than have the cost of millions of emergency room visits comped, you're not just lacking common sense, you're un-conservative!

it isn't. that's a right-wing talking point based on a misinterpretation of a study. medicaid patients overall have worse outcomes than the uninsured - most of whom aren't poor enough to qualify for medicaid. the poverty variable outweighs the healthcare variable.

JL

Until you can address those facts, you ain't got nuttin' :D

those are not facts, they are conclusions drawn from one study. the confounding variable that wasn't accounted for in that conclusion is poverty. on the whole, poor people have been found to get sicker more frequently than people who are not poor, and that variable is a stronger predictor of health problems than whether or not one is insured. none of which has any bearing on the effectiveness of medicaid.

JL

Medicaid is WORSE for health care than no insurance..

Until you can address those facts, you ain't got nuttin' :D

it's good for most of the 36 countries ranked above us by the world health organization for overall efficiency of care. and even for those like singapore who do not have socialized care, there's still a safety net with public options for people who can't afford top level care. here's the list of countries who have more efficient healthcare systems than us:

France
Italy
San Marino
Andorra
Malta
Singapore
Spain
Oman
Austria
Japan
Norway
Portugal
Monaco
Greece
Iceland
Luxembourg
Netherlands
United Kingdom
Ireland
Switzerland
Belgium
Colombia
Sweden
Cyprus
Germany
Saudi Arabia
United Arab Emirates
Israel
Morocco
Canada
Finland
Australia
Chile
Denmark
Dominica
Costa Rica

good news though, with obamacare we've leapfrogged cuba and slovenia into 37th place! go USA!

JL

Yea... Been there...

"I woke up this morning with a hangover and a swore wrist."
"Heh. Been there."
-SPIN CITY

:D

I would have a different term for lawyers, but I bow to your superior compassion.. :D

Just wanted to confirm we're on the same page.. :D

I think, in this context, those are synonymous. The lawyers are more flowery.

[69]
adjective which both press and president so dearly love [... which]
the Left would have dearly loved

I think, in this context, those are synonymous. The alliteration is more flowery my way.

Yea.. Glad the Democrats aren't resorting to hysterical fear mongering.. :^/

The old Soviet Union was able to do a GREAT government health care plan...

Not so sure it would be good for the US though... :^/

"Many" governments are not the US government..

i'm not aware of ANY facts that prove our government incapable of administering healthcare.

That's because you ignore the facts.. I brought up the VA...

I brought up the fact that not having insurance is better than having medicaid...

MANY governments already do.

Because there are just too many facts against it...

i'm not aware of ANY facts that prove our government incapable of administering healthcare. medicare and medicaid have both been fairly successful by most measures. yet again, the problems they encounter are mainly due to the fee for service model, which encourages doctors and pharmacies to gouge patients (and their insurers) for unnecessary procedures.

JL

We now come to find out that those workers are making over one hundred dollars LESS per months...

Democrats... Great in theory... Lousy in reality....

neither of the republican bills goes anywhere near that root problem either. read the bills, not a peep about cost controls at the point of service. they just undo the patient protections, impose additional austerity measures on the most vulnerable, and hand a huge windfall to the wealthy. is it any wonder that obamacare is suddenly popular?

JL

Because there are just too many facts against it...

Yea??? Let's ask those who regularly use the VA???

Then there was the Forbes report that showed that Medicaid is WORSE than having no insurance...

Like I said.. Democrats have GREAT theories...

But, as we saw in California, when reality rears it's ugly head???

which brings us back to my original point: health coverage gets you the most for your money when it is managed by government instead of the free market. companies will do anything to prevent a public option because they know they couldn't hope to compete.

JL

Exactly..

So, if our politicians REALLY want to help the American people, then make healthcare affordable..

JL

So, to be clear.. You are talking a better PRICE, not better care..

Cheaper is a fact, better is an opinion. Better for whom, is part of that equation. Perhaps not better for those who are wealthy enough to afford top level care.

Then so be it...

"That's the way the cookie crumbles"
-Jim Carrey, BRUCE ALMIGHTY

I dunno... Do women have prostates?? The only female anatomy classes I ever had were.....

well, let's just skip that for now... :D

If women don't have prostates, then it's ridiculous to have women pay for that...

Don't you agree???

What good is access to healthcare if you can't afford it??

I know of MANY people who have such high deductibles that they can't afford to go to the doctor.. They say they might as well not even HAVE healthcare..

EVERYONE has "access" to healthcare... It's called the emergency room... :D

The key is to making the healthcare affordable... Once it is, access takes care of itself..

Is it??? Forcing men to pay for pregnancy coverage???

THAT is dumb...

Many countries have public coverage. every single one has lower costs and less waste than ours, and most allow anyone who is not satisfied to supplement public coverage with private.

But is it BETTER care???

I can cite factual report after factual report after factual report that shows it's not BETTER care...

Your claim was that, not only is it significantly LOWER, it's also significantly BETTER...

There are no facts to support that...

There's plenty of evidence. Many countries have public coverage. every single one has lower costs and less waste than ours, and most allow anyone who is not satisfied to supplement public coverage with private.

Then the healthcare bill is likely NOT in the bests interests of those same American people...

That means don't force men to purchase maternity or gynecological insurance...

That means don't force people to buy something they don't want or need...

"Being an asshole and treating other people like dirt is every New Yorker's god given right!!"
Mayor Lenny, GHOSTBUSTERS 2

:D

I am curious what your values are.

I am a simple knuckle dragging ground-pounder...

I believe if a law is called the *AFFORDABLE* Care Act, it should be... yunno... AFFORDABLE... :D

The real trouble with the public option is that in most cases it is significantly better and cheaper than any private option,

Assumes facts not in evidence...

And TrainWreckCare sucks."

One factor in a person's determination of whether a system, policy, or law "sucks" is that person's values. What does that person think the end goal of the US's policy on healthcare should be? Should it be as many people insured as possible? Should it be the greatest possible number of people having access to healthcare(which could be the same thing, but isn't necessarily)? The lowest burden on taxpayers? The lowest amount of regulation? Should the ideal be that only people whose work the market values enough (in terms of what they get paid) that they can afford medical costs on their own dime should have access to healthcare?

I think most people have a combination of values with some taking priority over others. I am curious what your values are. If our values(or how we prioritize) are different, then it is only natural that our assessment of the ACA(or Republican healthcare bill) will be different. And I think that, because nobody to my knowledge has solved Hume's is/ought problem(logically deriving values from facts), what we value is to some extent, subjective. Meaning any differences we have in values may not be completely resolvable(empirically and logically, I mean). But I am curious what you think a good healthcare policy should do. Not the means by which it tries to accomplish those ends I'm just asking about the ends themselves.
-B

Thank you. (Hope you're mot just saying that because it's my birthday.)

Of course i was!! Hehehehe J/K Happy B-Day... The big nine oh, eh? heh

But I do think it goes deeper than just that I agreed with Michale (icing on the cake for many here).

Perhaps.. But one of your detractors came right out and said it..

"Around here, you're not helping your case by coming to the defense of Michale"

... or words to that effect... :D

Your ideas upset the status quo... And THAT's why it's hard to find traction..

I read an article in Georgia (I think) where food stamps membership fell 98% when the state re-imposed work requirements...

The training wheels have to come off sometime..

When the safety net becomes an end instead of a means to an end..

:D

I would, conditionally, disagree with that conclusion...

I worry that they are complacent enough to believe that all they need to do is criticize Trump to win.

Given the facts and reality, that worry is well-founded...

From the facts no more than the Democrats don't understand..

Apparently.. :D

Just to be clear, post #7 was not about welfare but, great societies are not made greater by taking away safety nets.

What Republicans don't understand about healthcare insurance, though, is quite a lot, apparently ...

I think 4-5 high profile "gavel ready" bills that are scored in a similar fashion to the CBO's scoring with simple infographics should be easy enough to gin up:

Would you include all the cock-ups that the CBO has committed??? :D

https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2017/06/27/cbo-predictions-about-the-senate-health-care-bill-are-deeply-flawed/#3ffc3eda79d4

Let's face reality.. Ya are only touting the CBO because it fits in with your anti-Trump agenda..

I had not read you post when I posted the above, but you are correct that Republicans cannot offer any legislation that benefits those that don't deserve to be helped in the minds of their supporters. They will work to prevent a single moocher from taking advantage of "the system", even if it costs them more to do so!

Granted, they may not personally know anyone who refuses to get a job in favor of letting welfare pay all of their bills, but they have heard stories of such evil creatures and know in their hearts that they must exist. They also tend to believe that welfare checks are generous enough to allow people to live the "good life" without the need for any other source of income. These mythical free-loading parasites are possibly the most powerful tool in the GOP's propaganda arsenal.

In other words, if Democrats want to have power in Washington again, then this is their ticket to ride. But, they had better start acting now - and, by now I mean YESTERDAY! - if they hope to retain any credibility on this issue or any other.

The problem with Democrats is that they think that all they need is a HATE TRUMP campaign to win..

No matter HOW MANY TIMES it's proven to be a losing campaign, THAT is all that the Democrat Party has..

It doesn't matter then whether 45care passes or not, the graphic will be dynamite in the 2018 elections (provided Democratic voters can be bothered to go to the polls).

Wow.. First JMCT and now you..

Looks like reality is finally sinking in here in Weigantia.. :D

I like your concluding point that the Democrats have a responsibility to have a plan ready for when they (if ever) have the political power in D.C. again.

I like the way you think.. :D

The weirdest and most frightening thing about the entire healthcare debacle this year is that the Republicans, over six years, obviously had never prepared an actual proposal to 'repeal and replace' Obamacare.

That's not factually accurate..

Don keeps making great points about where US politics needs to go but, they don't seem to get much traction here, of all places!!??

I'd like to understand why that is ...

It's simple.. At one point in time, Don rose to my defense over some such point or issue and was mercilessly and ruthlessly attacked by several Weigantians..

Every since that time, he has had a hard time gaining traction here..

Which is a shame because he definitely has some good ideas...

They already gave us their "better" idea....

And TrainWreckCare sucks.

Do you HONESTLY think the American people are going to be fooled TWICE by Democrats??

The recent history of single-payer efforts at the state level bears this out. At least two states have attempted to move to this liberal Utopia of healthcare for all. They both failed, when confronted with the cost. Politically, single-payer couldn't even get enough support in deep-blue Vermont and California, so it's hard to see the entire country getting behind the idea at this point.

Yep, yep.. Just as I predicted.. :D

It would stabilize the premiums and deductibles by giving the private insurance companies a baseline to shoot for.

It would stabilize at what level??

THAT's the question ya'all ignore...

The problem with "fixing" Obamacare is the problem that Liz alluded to in the previous commentary...

To "FIX" Obamacare, Democrats first have to admit that it's broken..

But they can't do that because Party loyalty won't let them..

Great article! When you have a large segment of the public who do not know that the ACA and ObamaCare are the same piece of legislation, it becomes clear just how good the GOP has gotten at misleading their supporters.

Sadly, the other issue that will keep us from having universal coverage is that conservative ideology has conditioned the masses to only be concerned with preventing people who refuse to work and choose to mooch off of the government (Read: non-whites) from getting even a single of their tax dollars; ignoring what costs they, themselves, will have to pay in order to make sure these mythical free loaders do not "win".

They will oppose any legislation that they believe would allow even a single "welfare queen/king" to take advantage of the system, even if by preventing that single person they also cause 200,000 people who DO have jobs to lose their healthcare coverage... They will feel the cost is justified. It is so ingrained into their political mindset that I am not sure they could ever support any healthcare system that is supposed to help ALL Americans.

"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." -- LBJ

Are Democrats up to the grand task of advocating for that change through a persistent information campaign aimed at persuading voters of all stripes that single payer is the best option for all concerned? Can they get states on board as test cases? Can they do anything!!??

Don keeps making great points about where US politics needs to go but, they don't seem to get much traction here, of all places!!??

I'd like to understand why that is ...

I like your concluding point that the Democrats have a responsibility to have a plan ready for when they (if ever) have the political power in D.C. again.

But, this is precisely the problem!

I mean, WHY WAIT for something that may never happen on its own!? Ahem.

I'm with former speaker Boehner on this one. Republicans are never going to pass healthcare legislation. The reasons are simple. In particular, they are split ideologically on what the government's role should be in delivering adequate healthcare to all Americans. So, do too much in one direction or too much in the other and you lose support from one group or another.

Of course, this provides the Democrats - and especially Barack Obama- with an excellent opportunity to do something they have been loath to do since Obamacare went into effect. And, that is champion what's good about it, lead the way to fixing what's bad about it, and make it crystal clear to everyone that it is just one step on the pathway toward a single-payer government-run and taxpayer funded healthcare system ... the only effective way to lower costs and provide excellence in healthcare for all Americans.

In other words, if Democrats want to have power in Washington again, then this is their ticket to ride. But, they had better start acting now - and, by now I mean YESTERDAY! - if they hope to retain any credibility on this issue or any other.

America has an opportunity to devise and implement the greatest single-payer/government-run, taxpayer-funded healthcare system that the industrialized world has ever known!

Next up, Chris's piece - I'm intrigued by "the public option" ... and whether this represents one more step on the road to single-payer ... ??

1. Medichoice vs. 45care
2. Cheap Clean Energy vs. Dirty Energy
3. Addiction Relief vs. Build the Wall
4. An Infrastructure Bill vs. Infrastructure Privatization
5. Student Loan Forgiveness vs. Billionaire's Tax Relief

The title of the campaign should be "What is Better for Americans Like You?"

It doesn't matter then whether 45care passes or not, the graphic will be dynamite in the 2018 elections (provided Democratic voters can be bothered to go to the polls).

The weirdest and most frightening thing about the entire healthcare debacle this year is that the Republicans, over six years, obviously had never prepared an actual proposal to 'repeal and replace' Obamacare.

Leaving aside the snarky comments about why that was, it should be a lesson to the Dems at the very least. Can they avoid the same trap of simply harping at the opposition (it's all Trump's fault; it's all the GOP's fault, etc.), and recover their claim to be a party that actually knows how to make and execute public policy on a national scale?