Are all the hispanics you know LEGALLY here in the US???

That was a hypothetical, but the answer is yes AND both fathers and mothers born in America also, which is more than Trump can say... as well as 4/5 of Trump's children.

I know more about ISIS than the generals do.
Campaign hyperbole... Nothing more...

I like this BS excuse of yours for Trump. Does it extend to others with a "D" after their name? I know it did not extend to me when you thought I was saying it. "I'm speaking with myself because I have a very big brain" didn't go over too well with you either. You accused me of making it up and Trump never saying it... when he said all of that and much more. Words matter. Words that Trump says should matter when he says them and not just when I repeat them.

But, if you start with the idea that Trump can NEVER earn your respect, well, that is on you, no?? :D

I NEVER said "NEVER," but I will say that Trump's words should matter. He seems to have little respect for women... so.... You can dismiss everything Trump ever tweeted or said or says in the future as "campaign hyperbole" or "locker room talk," but words he says should matter as much as words I say or anyone else says. I hear a lot of Republicans saying we have to give Trump a chance when I don't remember that same chance ever being extended to President Obama, a man who actually won the popular vote twice. Trump hasn't even done that once. Trump lost the majority... the majority of voters didn't choose him. Republicans who say Trump has a mandate said Obama did not have a mandate.

But the crux of the "All the hispanics we know" argument has one oh so important component..

Are all the hispanics you know LEGALLY here in the US???

I know more about ISIS than the generals do.

Campaign hyperbole... Nothing more...

; it's because he says stupid stuff. I respect the office, but I do not respect Trump. Respect is earned.

I couldn't agree more... Really...

But, if you start with the idea that Trump can NEVER earn your respect, well, that is on you, no?? :D

Each group truly does, but you'll NEVER get me to believe that false equivalency thing that they're "equally" racist and violent or "equally" anything. :)

Oh sure, it's not a one for one trade-off... You don't have one racist Lefty for every one racist Righty...

But, by and large, the quantity comes close.... That video link I posted in the latest Friday commentary goes into much detail.. I hope you watch it... It's a REAL eye-opener, especially in light of the dynamic we have here in Weigantia....

I know more about ISIS than the generals do.

Remember when I posted that and you tore me up? When you thought I was saying it, you said it was the dumbest thing you ever heard, right? It was equally dumb when Trump said it.

So now you know how lots of people feel about a lot of the crap coming out of Trump's orange blowhole... and it has nothing at all to do with the "R" after his name; it's because he says stupid stuff. I respect the office, but I do not respect Trump. Respect is earned.

The fact that Trump supporters as a whole, are no more racist and violent than Hillary supporters..

Each group truly does, but you'll NEVER get me to believe that false equivalency thing that they're "equally" racist and violent or "equally" anything. :)

Each group has their violent bad apples and assholes.....

FACT. :) But define "asshole." I decked that guy in Vegas and put him on his ass and put my foot in his throat. His buddy called me some choice names for hurting him, but he deserved what he got. Sometimes people who wouldn't normally be violent can be provoked. You never know when that person's ass you're grabbing is trained to defend themselves. :) Does that make me an "asshole"? Am I just supposed to let some jerk touch me like that because he feels empowered by Trump winning? I won't allow it. No one is touching me like that because I supported a candidate they didn't agree with (forgot to take off my little "H" pin). :)

I just wish it was a courtesy that extended both ways.. :D

It does extend both ways, but you must realize the context in which your personal experiences were being questioned. We were talking about polling at the time you said something along the lines of "all the legal Hispanics I know"... so I believed you, but in the context of POLLING, all the Hispanics you know are a small sample limited to your neighborhood. See? I live in Texas so I could say "all the Hispanics I know" were against Trump, and in the context of polling that would be an unrepresentative sample size signifying nothing that would be considered anecdotal evidence. :)

It matches well with yer peevish neediness to avoid the facts and the hypocrisy.. :D

You seem to want posters to be like the media... to give equal time to both sides and practice that "false equivalence" BS. Real people aren't generally like that. People are opinionated. I like to let people be who they are... blow off steam. EVERYONE knows "both sides do it," but they don't want to blow off steam whining about their side. A person doesn't have to argue both sides in order to make a valid point, right? :)

And what are those facts, you may ask???

Well, I am glad you asked..

The fact that Trump supporters as a whole, are no more racist and violent than Hillary supporters..

Each group has their violent bad apples and assholes.....

Don't get me wrong, K... I fully believe your personal experiences..

I just wish it was a courtesy that extended both ways.. :D

Your peevish neediness of concession and validation is again duly noted.

It matches well with yer peevish neediness to avoid the facts and the hypocrisy.. :D

Let it go. :)

Not gonna happen.. :D Not until the facts are conceded.... :D

Your peevish neediness of concession and validation is again duly noted.

EM is totally right about this issue... she is DOB right, as you like to say.

Let it go. :)

So, we're supposed to accepted your personal experiences as fact, but ya'all are free to ignore my personal experiences, such as talking with MANY legal hispanics as not factual???

How, exactly, does that work?? :^/

You are free to believe it or not. I don't concern myself with whether or not people believe my opinions or my experiences.

I understand what you're saying about "legal Hispanics," but put that conversation in the context of what we were talking about at the time -- polling -- and consider that Hispanics, both legal and illegal ones, are not a monolithic group, particularly and especially in your neck of the woods in Florida. Lots of illegal Hispanics live with legal Hispanics so it's complicated and nuanced. You like to say "it's that simple" a lot, but sometimes things aren't all that simple to peg or easily label.

I am related to lots of Trump supporters. They are all different and nuanced. I don't blame them for the guy who touched my ass and wound up on his ass for doing it. :)

EM is right about this, and you would be well served to listen to what she is saying. I've been between anti-Trump supporters and Trump supporters and watched a reporter get clocked in the face by a rock that flew past me and into his face. My not posting about it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Button it up with the blame here and the "D" and "R" rhetoric. I live with supporters on both sides and the young ones voting for Jill Stein against all my objections.

And yet, point to me a SINGLE un-prompted comment where one of ya'all condemned Left Winger violence against Trump supporters or Trump himself..

You can't because NONE exists...

You can claim til the cows come home, but the facts are the facts..

And the fact is *NO ONE* here has, unprompted or unsolicited, condemned Left Wingery violence against Trump and/or Trump supporters..

NO..... ONE....

Because I know for a fact that it's SOLELY based on Partisan ideology.. That you ONLY mind the alleged violence from the Right and condone and encourage the violence and hate from the Left...

Well I don't know how many times I have to tell you, but you don't know what you're talking about with your constant "partisan ideology" ECHO... Echo... echo -- at least where I am concerned.

No one has to post constantly about "both sides doing it" in order to make a point. Only a fool would fail to see that there is violence on both sides, but one doesn't have to argue both sides in order to make a credible point on one side or the other. Please let that finally permeate through your dura mater. :)

With one or two exceptions, no one here has anything to do with STOPPING it either....

And, the link that preceded it.

And, most frustrating of all, your endless implications that we have anything to do with it.

Which "crap" are you referring to???

What was I wrong about?

That was a royal "you" and not a "you" you.... :D

What was I wrong about?

The Trump supporters, including yours truly, endured so much hatred and vitriol and attacks and condemnations and ridicule from the Left Wingery as a whole and, either by commission or omission, the VAST majority of Weigantians..

Do you honestly believe it's fair for us to be asked to forget all that, forget all the name-callings and personal attacks and the like and just hug it out??

There will come a day for that... With me, personally, it will likely be sooner rather than later.....

But today is not that day...

"There will come a day when your people will be welcome back to Atlantis. But today is not that day.."
-Commander Freah, STARGATE: ATLANTIS

I understand.... It's hard to come to grips with being so blatantly wrong about most everything..

But I have faith in your strength....

Is it really so difficult to condemn those scum on the Left calling for the brutal murder and attacks on Trump and Trump supporters??

I wouldn't have thought so...

The Republican real-estate billionaire beat Hillary Clinton handily to become the next president of the United States, but that hasn’t stopped lots of people calling for somebody to murder him.
Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2016/11/09/twitter-erupts-with-calls-for-donald-trump-to-be-assassinated/#ixzz4PbjVIy7e

This is ya'all's fellow Left Wingers....

Do ya'all have anything to say to them??? Anything at all???

Ya'all's case from the get go is that the VAST MAJORITY, if not ALL of Trump supporters are...

And you have no basis for such a claim, save political bigotry...

Ah Ah Ah....

We are not talking about "some".. The statement has been made MANY times here that "Trump supporters are racist and full of hate" with nay attention paid to quantifying...

Ya'all said it.. Ya'all don't get to re-write recent history... It's not allowed.. :D

Let me explain it this way...

A guy wearing an I AM A REPUBLICAN hat comes to the podium and says all sorts of racist and hate filled crap...

You lean over to your friend next to you and remark what a racist asshole that guy is..

The guy leaves and a girl steps forward to the podium wearing an I AM A REPUBLICAN shirt.. She goes on and on spewing a whole litany of racist and hate-filled crap...

You again turn to your friend and remark what a racist and hate monger this biatch is...

The girl leaves the podium and another guy steps up to the podium, wearing an I AM A DEMOCRAT shirt. This guy goes on and on spewing a whole bunch of racist and hate mongering crap....

And you say absolutely NOTHING to your friend about it...

Now...

What logical and rational conclusion can be deduced from this???

THen it should be easy for you to quote EXACTLY what he said...

Because I have already proven beyond any doubt that Trump has never said a racist thing..

At the airport in Vegas a few days ago, I accidentally forgot to remove my little blue "H" pin with the red arrow. This really big guy with a tattooed arm grabbed my ass and called me "a c**t with a Hillary pin." Poor guy ended up on the ground at the Vegas airport with my tennis shoe on his throat. He was lucky I wasn't wearing my combat boots and really fortunate my husband wasn't there.

So, we're supposed to accepted your personal experiences as fact, but ya'all are free to ignore my personal experiences, such as talking with MANY legal hispanics as not factual???

How, exactly, does that work?? :^/

And so now, ya'all's choice is to act EXACTLY like the "righties"???

The difference is, Democrats will for the most part, I suspect, actually respect the office. :)

Despite all the KILL TRUMP AND HIS SUPPORTERS facts to the contrary....

Did you hear the guy yell out "kill Obama" while Trump was giving his victory speech? No, they're not hateful; why would anyone think that? /sarcasm off

And did you read ANY of the links I posted about all the violence from the Left??

Why is it that you condemn the alleged violence and hate from the Right but leave uncommented the real and documented violence from the Left??

This is EXACTLY why I can't get excited by ya'all's claims of violence from the Right..

Because I know for a fact that it's SOLELY based on Partisan ideology.. That you ONLY mind the alleged violence from the Right and condone and encourage the violence and hate from the Left...

Michale said: Maybe the solution is, instead of demonizing and attacking people who think differently, work WITH them to find and build on the things that ya'all DO have in common??

Question:

When did righties do this for Obama? He was demonized from the outset and still is.

I did a lot of work in Nevada this election. I wish some of the other states had gone the same way it did in Nevada... a blue wave. I suspect if it had, the Republicans would be whining about how everything is "rigged" and how they intended to block everything in the future that President Clinton tried to enact.

Democrats will be expected to respect the office that Republicans only respect when they're the occupant. The difference is, Democrats will for the most part, I suspect, actually respect the office. :)

Did you hear the guy yell out "kill Obama" while Trump was giving his victory speech? No, they're not hateful; why would anyone think that? /sarcasm off

Why do you think that Trump supporters are full of hate??

Oh, oh, oh..... pick me. I can answer why I think some of them are.

Ahem...... I attended three Trump rallies and watched them yell profanities and carry on and even throw rocks. I was a working "observer" and witnessed the usual Trump rhetoric where he cursed and carried on about Mexicans and got the crowds all worked up. On the way out of the venue during one rally, they were mad as hell and throwing rocks (missed me).

Do not for one minute doubt that Donald Trump said racist things in his rallies. He did. I was there. Do not for one minute doubt that Trump followers are angry and sometimes violent. They are. I have witnessed it several times in person.

Of course, the majority of them are absolutely NOT like this at all... not one iota... but it would serve you well to believe me when I tell you that Donald Trump whipped those crowds up with his racist rhetoric, and lots of them are really angry. Angry enough to throw rocks at their fellow Americans.

At the airport in Vegas a few days ago, I accidentally forgot to remove my little blue "H" pin with the red arrow. This really big guy with a tattooed arm grabbed my ass and called me "a c**t with a Hillary pin." Poor guy ended up on the ground at the Vegas airport with my tennis shoe on his throat. He was lucky I wasn't wearing my combat boots and really fortunate my husband wasn't there.

Most of the Trump supporters are great, but some of them are really angry and kind of angry and mean. FACT.

I laughed when I read it, but then I kept reading and you seemed very serious.

I respect what Nader has accomplished and despise the hacks misdirecting blame away from those truly accountable in 2000 and 2016, but if I were you I wouldn't court him for your effort.

It's not the crusade against him.
He's just a brand name with the baggage of preconceived notions.

New blood is better.

A

https://www.facebook.com/ellentv/videos/10154894159977240/

If you watch nothing else tonight... Watch that...

How can their be an honest discussion under those circumstances??

1. I had never seen such "economic apartheid" before, and I grew up for a time in Africa

2. The Democrats were like the British Conservatives and the Republicans were far off in rightwingistan

Bill Clinton, if anything, took the Democratic Party even further to the right. The left/right struggle in Europe is one of Labor vs. Capital, but here it was Capital vs. Capital.

Little has changed to alter my first observations.

Last night was thus a "looking the the mirror glass" experience. The midwest blue collar workers rejected the party that pretends to represent labor for an extreme example of a capitalist.

I wonder how long it is going to take them to find out.

I have no time for this.

Fair enough... I misspoke... My apologies...

Why do you think the majority of Weigantians think that Trump supporters are full of hate...

And when those Weigantians espoused that idea that Trump supporters were full of hate, why didn't OTHER Weigantians who DON'T share that opinion set the record straight???

You see my point???

Either by commission **OR** omission, Weigantians think that Trump supporters are full of hate....

If you believe as I do, that Trump supporters are NOT motivated by hate, then by all means... Set me straight...

THEN, you and I can discuss why OTHER Weigantians think that....

Liz, you have my word that I WILL remember that a FEW of you are looking to move forward in a positive manner and that a FEW of you are trying to give Trump a chance..

But, recent history has PROVEN that many many MORE Weigantians are of the variety who think that Trump is a racist and Trump supporters are nothing but hate-mongering racists...

While I *WILL* address the few who have the positive outlook, it's those who blindly HATE Trump and his supporters that will get the most out of my After Action report...

IN other words... I'll stick with the facts, both GOOD and BAD....

When have I ever said that they were!!!???

I have no time for this.

Ya'all didn't seem to mind the uncertainty then....

How come??? Just because of the -D after Obama's name???

Some examples: will he insert American Troops into the Middle east, or adopt an isolationist policy? I dunno. Will he criticize Assad's and Russia's barrel-bombing of civilians, or back Putin's war of attrition in Syria? I dunno. Will Trump build economic ties to US allies around the world, or hold them up for protection money? I dunno.

A lot of uncertainty there, and 'we'll see' is a scary attitude to adopt in the face of it.

As opposed to Clinton's actions where we KNOW she will insert troops... we KNOW she will impose a NFZ, thereby setting up a confrontation between US and Russian fighters....

We KNOW what Clinton would have done.. We have SEEN it in Benghazi, in Libya and in Syria...

Trump MAY be worse, I grant you...

But he also MAY be better...

THAT is what you refuse to acknowledge with any seriousness...

What I mean is, it's EASY to take the high road when circumstances more or less FORCE you to take the high road..

The TRUE mark of character would have been for Obama and Hillary to take the high road last week...

Or the week before...

Am I wrong???

At least a GLIMMERING of a SPARK of a thought in ya'all's brains that would say, "Hay... wait a tic.. Maybe Michale DOES know what he is talking about...."

I'm just sayin'.....

And what was it called when Clinton/Obama called Trump and Trump supporters "deplorables", "irredeemables" and so many other names???

hmmmmmmmm???

You have got it all wrong, B...

I am not the defender of the Status Quo, nor am I obligated to defend Trump when he is wrong...

You are confusing me with a Party drone.. A Party drone must defend their queen, even if said queen is bat-shit wrong...

When Trump is wrong, I will slam him down... When he is right, I will defend him..

THAT is what a person who is NOT enslaved by Party Dogma does...

I know, I know... It's an alien concept for many people here...

Why do you think your fellow Weigantians are full of hate?

I honestly don't know...

But you seem to be implying that my fellow Weigantians AREN"T full of hate...

I will grant you that some aren't...

But YOU must also grant me that MANY are...

Now, let me ask YOU a question...

Why do you think that Trump supporters are full of hate??

https://www.facebook.com/TheDailyRantsGuy/videos/1139935746084594/

Now, THAT is what's called taking the high road.

If only congressional Republicans had taken the same view on that cold January day in 2009 ...

"Welcome to the party, pal!"

I'm going to try one more time, perhaps for the last time ...

Why do you think your fellow Weigantians are full of hate?

Really? Rural America votes for a man who, except for the very specific promises to build a wall and deport illegal immigrants, has only promised vaguely that 'things will be great', and you're not even a little bit concerned that we have no idea what the rest of his agenda is? Some examples: will he insert American Troops into the Middle east, or adopt an isolationist policy? I dunno. Will he criticize Assad's and Russia's barrel-bombing of civilians, or back Putin's war of attrition in Syria? I dunno. Will Trump build economic ties to US allies around the world, or hold them up for protection money? I dunno.

A lot of uncertainty there, and 'we'll see' is a scary attitude to adopt in the face of it.

Oh come on....

If today's events haven't proven beyond ALL doubt that my "projections" upon ya'all were dead on ballz accurate, then NOTHING will ever "prove" it... :D

I hope that you will think long and hard about where you post your 'After Action Report' and remember what this site is all about.

Please consider who we are and how we are trying to move forward in a positive manner with Trump at the helm and your country teetering on the edge, deeply divided on a broad array of issues as well as on a sense of who and what America and Americans are ...

I haven't made myself clear.

Your links and projections on us, your fellow Weigantians, are extraneous and wholly unwarranted, not to mention unappreciated.

Here is the stark difference today between Democrats and Republicans:

President Obama said today that he wishes President-elect Trump success because, to paraphrase Joe Biden, if Trump fail, America fails.

Now, fast rewind to Inauguration Day 2009 when the Republican leadership announced that their number one priority - in the midst of the most destructive global financial crisis since the Great Depression as America was losing more than 700,000 jobs per month, you will recall - was to do everything in their power to ensure that President Obama would be a one-term president.

I can't help but wonder, given his paranoid assertions during the latter days of the campaign about the system being rigged, how Donald Trump would have handled a defeat and how he will proceed after taking the oath of office.

Because, of all the things you contribute to this site, it is your insertion of extraneous links like that that have nothing to do with the people, yourself included, who call this wonderful site a virtual home that really irks me.

But they aren't "extraneous" links... They are links that are chock full o facts that support the case I am making.. I'll be touching on this in my After Action Report...

Is it to soon to point out that while Trump wins in the EC he still came in second in the popular vote.

OPOV is a needed change...

I believe it was Russ who said, "Thank god for the Electoral Vote!!" or words to that effect.. :D

'Sides.. All the counting isn't done... Trump may still pull ahead in the popular vote as well....

You're projecting.. :D

In otherwords, what exactly the rural folk expect Trump to do to make their lives easier eludes me.

Looks like we'll find out together... :D

For YEARS, the Democrats have been convincing illegal immigrants that immigration is a RIGHT.. That they have a RIGHT to come to this country and break our laws...

Trump will make sure that these immigrants know that the Democrats have been LYING....

Yes. I'd like him to show me, just one time, that he's up to the job. I haven't seen anything remotely like that yet.

The hillbillies didn't vote for Trump because he's competent - they elected him to throw a wrench into the urban-centric culture of Washington politics.

But their choice of champions was flawed because Trump is, if anything, a creature of the very culture they despise, or didn't they notice that he operates from a high-rise in Manhattan, hires illegal immigrants, and out-sources all of his manufacturing?

Trump can't stop the technological innovation that has stolen midwestern jobs, and makes them computer-illiterate cogs in the new economy. He won't increase funding to education, to the contrary, I expect him to support useless for-profit enterprises like Trump University. Trump can't abolish hip hop, and won't take the guns from the hands of desperate inner-city criminals - he might actually arm them to the teeth instead, through lax gun laws.

In otherwords, what exactly the rural folk expect Trump to do to make their lives easier eludes me.

OPOV is a needed change...

I won't include the link you provided as proof of your comment, Michale.

Because, of all the things you contribute to this site, it is your insertion of extraneous links like that that have nothing to do with the people, yourself included, who call this wonderful site a virtual home that really irks me.

My hope going forward is that you won't project the actions and ideas of those who would work to keep your country divided onto your friends who share this place with you.

I don't think we deserve it and I think you know it.

I won't include the link you provided as proof of your comment, Michale.

Because, of all the things you contribute to this site, it is your insertion of extraneous links like that that have nothing to do with the people, yourself included, who call this wonderful site a virtual home.

My hope going forward is that you won't project the actions and ideas of those who would work to keep your country divided onto your friends who share this place with you.

I don't think we deserve it and I think you know it.

And on THAT, we are in complete agreement... :D

They do, more so than the hillbillys living across the street, I can tell you that. But which laws would you have them follow - the laws that allowed and encouraged them to emigrate in the first place, or the NEW proposed laws that will make their lives a living nightmare? You can't criticize folks for not following rules that you're changing as you go along.

Trump is not advocating any new laws.. Trump says we simply ENFORCE the laws that are already on the books...

It was Obama who wanted a whole slew of new laws. And when he couldn't get those, he did an end run around Congress...

Then Trump body-slammed Obama to the ground for a 4 yard loss :D

I agree that illegal immigrants are not in the best of situations in the here and now...

But it's a situation of their own making.. But it's never too late to do the right thing...

And here I was thinking that I could never root for Trump. I want to see him go down that path, and see where it gets him. Couldn't happen to a nicer group of guys.

I'd also like to see that "poor sweet Mexican immigrant family that lives next door to you" to show respect for this country by obeying it's laws...

They do, more so than the hillbillys living across the street, I can tell you that. But which laws would you have them follow - the laws that allowed and encouraged them to emigrate in the first place, or the NEW proposed laws that will make their lives a living nightmare? You can't criticize folks for not following rules that you're changing as you go along.

You MIGHT be wrong...

Trump MIGHT be a great president..

Isn't that what you want?? For Trump to be a great President and be a bona fide hero for this country and all Americans??

Obama....

Obama......

And.... WOW... Obama......

:D

Trump has done NOTHING to indicate that he trusts the Russians...

But, take a look at the dynamic here... :D

Under Reagan, it was the Left that wanted to make nice with the Russians... :D

You seem to be saying that any woman who voted for Trump DESERVES to be thrown up against a wall and sexually molested..

While I don't know you all that well, I think I know you well enough to know that you don't WANT to be saying that...

..and a savings and loan collapse, a run-up of the deficit, backroom deals with the Iranians, illegal military interventions, support for racist and authoritarian regimes and a bloated peacetime military buildup. I can't wait.

And Reagan would have never trusted the Russians as much as Trump does. Never.

Oh that.... Locker room talk from 10 years ago.... Hardly indicative of ANYTHING.....

No different than Hillary staring longingly at whatsername's tits....

I'de also like to see that "poor sweet Mexican immigrant family that lives next door to you" to show respect for this country by obeying it's laws...

Michale: I'll tell you what I told my brother last night. If Trump wants to win me over, he'll convince the GOP to finally take up the infrastructure bill that's been gathering dust for the last eight years. I'd like to see the US build out the way that every other industrialized society has during the last decade.

What if Trump were to renounce his Republican Party membership and register as an NPA??

I don't think we have to worry about Trump having to "convince" the GOP to do anything..

Trump will say... They will do.... The alternative IS Trump renouncing his Party membership and turning his supporters AGAINST the GOP.....

They weren't 'accusations', they were his own words on videotape. At what point should that have been raised? Besides, there's a chance that the Trump campaign actually encouraged the release of that tape, so that he could rip into Bill's past (as he actually did). But he can't dismiss his own words - they'll hang in the air around him like cat box odor forever.

No apology necessary....

We simply disagreed.. You WOULD owe me an apology if you hadn't acknowledged that I COULD be right and you COULD be wrong, but you did.. So, no apology is necessary... But thank you anyways... :D

though I wish that I could fast-forward to the moment, sometime in the future, when they all collectively realize that they've been made fools of by a master con artist.

OR.... Trump could be another Ronald Reagan, bringing back Morning to America..... :D

A person doesn't get to be as successful as Trump in business by SOLELY being a "master con artist"....

I'd also like to see him, now that he's won, put the immigration issue on the back burner, and stop terrifying the poor, sweet, Mexican immigrant family that lives next door to me. The GOP will now have to face the fact that it's wealthy agro-business interests, not liberal coddling, that drives most immigration in the southwest. They'll find that out if they try to pass anything resembling a deportation force.

Hey, at least the legalization effort won big last night!

Oh puullleeeeezzzzzeeeeee...

The mere TIMING of the accusations should have proven to you how bogus they were....

"Wall Street took Trump literally but not seriously, while Trump supporters took him seriously but not literally."

I like that quote as well because it DOES sum things up perfectly.... :D

So, we CAN agree on things.. :D

In hindsight, Trump's total decimation of 17 establishment candidates in the Primary should have been the canary in the coal mine....

The filter ate my comment.

It's long, but timely.

A

Just in case anybody missed it, here's Glenn Greenwald in full-

The Intercept
GG
11/9/16

Democrats, Trump and the ongoing, dangerous refusal to learn the lesson of Brexit

The parallels between the U.K.’s shocking approval of the Brexit referendum in June and the U.S.’ even more shocking election of Donald Trump as president last night are overwhelming. Elites (outside of populist right-wing circles) aggressively unified across ideological lines in opposition to both. Supporters of Brexit and Trump were continually maligned by the dominant media narrative (validly or otherwise) as primitive, stupid, racist, xenophobic, and irrational. In each case, journalists who spend all day chatting with one another on Twitter and congregating in exclusive social circles in national capitals — constantly re-affirming their own wisdom in an endless feedback loop — were certain of victory. Afterward, the elites whose entitlement to prevail was crushed devoted their energies to blaming everyone they could find except for themselves, while doubling down on their unbridled contempt for those who defied them, steadfastly refusing to examine what drove their insubordination.

The indisputable fact is that prevailing institutions of authority in the West, for decades, have relentlessly and with complete indifference stomped on the economic welfare and social security of hundreds of millions of people. While elite circles gorged themselves on globalism, free trade, Wall Street casino-gambling, and endless wars (wars that enriched the perpetrators and sent the poorest and most marginalized to bear all their burdens), they completely ignored the victims of their gluttony, except when those victims piped up a bit too much — when they caused a ruckus — and were then scornfully condemned as troglodytes who were the deserved losers in the glorious, global game of meritocracy.

That message was heard loud and clear. The institutions and elite factions that have spent years mocking, maligning, and pillaging large portions of the population — all while compiling their own long record of failure and corruption and destruction — are now shocked that their dictates and decrees go unheeded. But human beings are not going to follow and obey the exact people they most blame for their suffering. They’re going to do exactly the opposite: purposely defy them and try to impose punishment in retaliation. Their instruments for retaliation are Brexit and Trump. Those are their agents, dispatched on a mission of destruction: aimed at a system and culture that they regard, not without reason, as rife with corruption and, above all else, contempt for them and their welfare.

After the Brexit vote, I wrote an article comprehensively detailing these dynamics, which I won’t repeat here but hope those interested will read. The title conveys the crux: “Brexit Is Only the Latest Proof of the Insularity and Failure of Western Establishment Institutions.” That analysis was inspired by a short, incredibly insightful, and now-more-relevant-than-ever post-Brexit Facebook note by The Los Angeles Times’ Vincent Bevins, who wrote that “both Brexit and Trumpism are the very, very wrong answers to legitimate questions that urban elites have refused to ask for 30 years”; in particular, “since the 1980s the elites in rich countries have overplayed their hand, taking all the gains for themselves and just covering their ears when anyone else talks, and now they are watching in horror as voters revolt.”

For those who tried to remove themselves from the self-affirming, vehemently pro-Clinton elite echo chamber of 2016, the warning signs that Brexit screechingly announced were not hard to see. These two short passages from a Slate interview I gave in July — here and here — summarized those grave dangers: that opinion-making elites were so clustered, so incestuous, so far removed from the people who would decide this election, so contemptuous of them, that they were not only incapable of seeing the trends toward Trump but were unwittingly accelerating those trends with their own condescending, self-glorifying behavior.

Like most everyone else who saw the polling data and predictive models of the media’s self-proclaimed data experts, I long believed Clinton would win, but the reasons why she very well could lose were not hard to see. The warning lights were flashing in neon for a long time, but they were in seedy places that elites studiously avoid. The few people who purposely went to those places and listened, such as Chris Arnade, saw and heard them loud and clear. The ongoing failure to take heed of this intense but invisible resentment and suffering guarantees that it will fester and strengthen. This was the last paragraph of my July article on the Brexit fallout:

Instead of acknowledging and addressing the fundamental flaws within themselves, [elites] are devoting their energies to demonizing the victims of their corruption, all in order to delegitimize those grievances and thus relieve themselves of responsibility to meaningfully address them. That reaction only serves to bolster, if not vindicate, the animating perceptions that these elite institutions are hopelessly self-interested, toxic, and destructive and thus cannot be reformed but rather must be destroyed. That, in turn, only ensures there will be many more Brexits, and Trumps, in our collective future.

Beyond the Brexit analysis, there are three new points from last night’s results that I want to emphasize, as they are unique to the 2016 U.S. election and, more importantly, illustrate the elite pathologies that led to all of this:

(1) Democrats have already begun flailing around trying to blame anyone and everyone they can find — everyone except themselves — for last night’s crushing defeat of their party. You know the drearily predictable list of their scapegoats: Russia, WikiLeaks, James Comey, Jill Stein, Bernie Bros, The Media, news outlets (including, perhaps especially, the Intercept) which sinned by reporting negatively on Hillary Clinton. Anyone who thinks that what happened last night in places like Ohio, Pennsylvania, Iowa and Michigan can be blamed on any of that is drowning in self-protective ignorance so deep that it’s impossible to express in words.

When a political party is demolished, the principle responsibility belongs to one entity: the party that got crushed. It’s the job of the party and the candidate, and nobody else, to persuade the citizenry to support them and find ways to do that. Last night, the Democrats failed, resoundingly, to do that, and any autopsy or liberal think piece or pro-Clinton-pundit commentary that does not start and finish with their own behavior is one that is inherently worthless.

Put simply, Democrats knowingly chose to nominate a deeply unpopular, extremely vulnerable, scandal-plagued candidate, who — for very good reason — was widely perceived to be a protector and beneficiary of all the worst components of status quo elite corruption. It’s astonishing that those of us who tried frantically to warn Democrats that nominating Hillary Clinton was a huge and scary gamble, that all empirical evidence showed that she could lose to anyone and that Bernie Sanders would be a much stronger candidate especially in this climate — are now the ones being blamed: by the very same people who insisted on ignoring all that data and nominating her anyway.

But that’s just basic blame-shifting and self-preservation. Far more significant is what this shows about the mentality of the Democratic Party. Just think about who they nominated: someone who — when she wasn’t dining with Saudi monarchs and being feted in Davos by tyrants who gave million-dollar checks — spent the last several years piggishly running around to Wall Street banks and major corporations cashing in with $250,000 fees for 45-minute secret speeches even though she had already become unimaginably rich with book advances while her husband already made tens of millions playing these same games. She did all that without the slightest apparent concern for how that would feed into all the perceptions and resentments of her and the Democratic Party as corrupt, status-quo-protecting, aristocratic tools of the rich and powerful: exactly the worst possible behavior for this post-2008-economic-crisis era of globalism and destroyed industries.

It goes without saying that Trump is a sociopathic con artist obsessed with personal enrichment: the opposite of a genuine warrior for the downtrodden. That’s too obvious to debate. But, just as Obama did so powerfully in 2008, he could credibly run as an enemy of the D.C. and Wall Street system that has steamrolled over so many people, while Hillary Clinton is its loyal guardian, its consummate beneficiary.

Trump vowed to destroy the system that elites love (for good reason) and the masses hate (for equally good reason), while Clinton vowed to more efficiently manage it. That, as Matt Stoller’s indispensable article in the Atlantic three weeks ago documented, is the conniving choice the Democratic Party made decades ago: to abandon populism and become the party of technocratically proficient, mildly benevolent managers of elite power. Those are the cynical, self-interested seeds they planted, and now the crop has sprouted.

Of course there are fundamental differences between Obama’s version of “change” and Trump’s. But at a high level of generality — which is where these messages are often ingested — both were perceived as outside forces on a mission to tear down corrupt elite structures, while Clinton was perceived as devoted to their fortification. That is the choice made by Democrats — largely happy with status quo authorities, believing in their basic goodness — and any honest attempt by Democrats to find the prime author of last night’s debacle will begin with a large mirror.

(2) That racism, misogyny and xenophobia are pervasive in all sectors of America is indisputable from even a casual glance at its history, both distant and recent. There are reasons why all presidents until 2008 were white and all 45 elected presidents are men. There can be no doubt that those pathologies played a substantial role in last night’s outcome. But that fact answers very few questions, and begs many critical ones.

To begin with, one must confront the fact that not only was Barack Obama elected twice, but is poised to leave office as a highly popular president: now viewed more positively than Reagan. America wasn’t any less racist and xenophobic in 2008 and 2012 than it is now. Even stalwart Democrats fond of casually branding their opponents as bigots are acknowledging that a far more complicated analysis is required to understand last night’s results. As the New York Times’ Nate Cohn put it: “Clinton suffered her biggest losses in the places where Obama was strongest among white voters. It’s not a simple racism story.” Matt Yglesias acknowledged that Obama’s high approval rating is inconsistent with depictions of the U.S. as “county besotted with racism.”

People often talk about “racism/sexism/xenophobia” v. “economic suffering” as if they are totally distinct dichotomies. Of course there are substantial elements of both in Trump’s voting base, but the two categories are inextricably linked: the more economic suffering people endure, the angrier and more bitter they get, the easier it is to direct their anger to scapegoats. Economic suffering often fuels ugly bigotry. It is true that many Trump voters are relatively well-off and that many of the nation’s poorest voted for Clinton, but, as Michael Moore quite presciently warned, those portions of the country that have been most ravaged by free trade orgies and globalism — Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, Iowa — were filled with rage and “see [Trump] as a chance to be the human Molotov cocktail that they’d like to throw into the system to blow it up.” Those are the places that were decisive in Trump’s victory. As the Washington Examiner’s Tim Carney put it:

It long has been, and still is, a central American challenge to rid its society of these structural inequalities. But one way to ensure those scapegoating dynamics fester rather than erode is to continue to embrace a system that excludes and ignores a large portion of the population. Hillary Clinton was viewed, reasonably, as a stalwart devotee, beloved agent, and prime beneficiary of that system, and thus could not possibly be viewed as a credible actor against it.

(3) Over the last six decades, and particularly over the last fifteen years of the endless War on Terror, both political parties have joined to construct a frightening and unprecedentedly invasive and destructive system of authoritarian power, accompanied by the unbridled authority vested in the Executive Branch to use it. As a result, the president of the United States commands a vast nuclear arsenal that can destroy the planet many times over; the deadliest and most expensive military ever developed in human history; legal authorities that allow him to prosecute numerous secret wars at the same time, imprison people with no due process, and to target people (including U.S. citizens) for assassination with no oversight; domestic law enforcement agencies that are constructed to appear and to act as standing, para-militarized armies; a sprawling penal state that allows imprisonment far more easily than most western countries; and a system of electronic surveillance purposely designed to be ubiquitous and limitless, including on U.S. soil.

Those who have been warning of the grave dangers these powers pose have often been dismissed on the ground that the leaders who control this system are benevolent and well-intentioned. They have thus often resorted to the tactic of urging people to imagine what might happen if a president they regarded as less-then-benevolent one day gained control of it. That day has arrived. One hopes that this will at least provide the impetus to unite across ideological and partisan lines to finally impose meaningful limits on these powers that should never have been vested in the first place. That commitment should start now.

* * * * *

For many years, the U.S. — like the U.K. and other western nations — has embarked on a course that virtually guaranteed a collapse of elite authority and internal implosion. From the invasion of Iraq to the 2008 financial crisis to the all-consuming framework of prisons and endless wars, societal benefits have been directed almost exclusively to the very elite institutions most responsible for failure at the expense of everyone else.

It was only a matter of time before instability, backlash and disruption resulted. Both Brexit and Trump unmistakably signal its arrival. The only question is whether those two cataclysmic events will be the peak of this process, or just the beginning. And that, in turn, will be determined by whether their crucial lessons are learned — truly internalized — or ignored in favor of self-exonerating campaigns to blame everyone else.

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So, go the source for the imbedded links or for the comments.

In case you don't bother, my comment was a prediction that the Dems won't learn from their mistakes and won't abandon their failed tactics.

After all, they've spent 16 years blaming Nader (and counting).

A

Third-party voters ought to be asked, "Is this the result you wanted?" Why did you, Jill Stein or Gary Johnson voter, decide that Donald Trump was preferable to Hillary Clinton? Don't play coy, because everyone warned you that this could be the result of your intransigence.

I will note here that in every state in which Trump won, Gary Johnson received enough votes to have tipped the race the other way. Nader, meet Johnson.

Then: millennials (ugh!). The millennial vote was down 9% compared to 2012 last night, more than enough to make up the margins Hillary needed to win. Bernie's ghost hovered over this election: I heard one millennial say last night, "Well, if she'd have been nicer to Bernie...", OMFG.

So, rather than vote for Hillary, they preferred to flush everything that Bernie stood for. That's some fancy thinking, there.

And Republican women who voted for Trump: would you please wear an "I voted for Trump" sticker everywhere you go, so that when some creep shoves you or your daughter up against a wall for a quick feel, I can say, "you voted for that"?

As for 'moderate Republicans', if such a species still exists today, I would point you to an article that I saw recently about the way some Elephants are being hunted to extinction. Pretty soon, only elephants without tusks or raised in captivity will remain. The next time that you see an elephant used as a logo for the GOP, paint a tiny bullseye on it, just to remind yourselves that you're a species on the endangered list.

And to the Religious Right, well they can sit down and shut up from now on: after Trump's victory, they can't even claim to represent their own constituency. Not now that they've voted for a serial adulterer con artist with a taste for barely legal poontang. Between Trump and his top surrogates Gingrich & Giuliani they had nine wives between them, yet evangelicals couldn't wait to vote to legitimatize them. So your credibility is now null. The next time I hear a criticism of 'godless liberals' I will laugh like 'Bob & Tom' on meth.

To CNN, MSNBC and other 'mainstream' media outlets: you got what you wanted, didn't you? Thanks to two billion dollars worth of free media afforded to Trump early in the campaign, moderate Republicans never had a chance to gain enough momentum to stop Trump. You wanted a show to boost ratings? You've got it, and it's been picked up for another four years. But heed this warning: progressives have been growing increasingly uneasy with corporate-owned media, and this will accelerate that discussion. I don't know how much it takes to crowd-source a network, but I predict that the effort will be made sooner rather than later, and you'll be stuck with a show that nobody watches.

Finally, to Michale. Yes, I do owe you an apology. You waved your hands in the air and shouted, BREXIT! until we were all tired of hearing about it, but you were right: there was a rural revolution brewing and we didn't see it coming. The fact that they've bought themselves (as they would say) a 'pig in a poke' doesn't make me any happier, though I wish that I could fast-forward to the moment, sometime in the future, when they all collectively realize that they've been made fools of by a master con artist.

But your side has to admit that it has some demographic problems as well. Trump didn't win a single American city last night, not even in deep-red Texas, Mississippi, or Louisiana. Millennials didn't turn out for Hillary, but they didn't vote for Trump in large numbers either, opting instead to either not vote or to throw their votes to third party alternatives. The aging white voters that this win depended on are dying off, and will be outstripped demographically in a very few years unless the upcoming deportations include anyone with a tan. And, by the way, your party might have to deal with an exodus of the financial class, once a reliable and lucrative ally. Judging by their reaction today, that could be an uphill battle for Trump.

I'll finish with a quote from last night, by Republican Steve Schmidt:

"Wall Street took Trump literally but not seriously, while Trump supporters took him seriously but not literally."

We'll see soon which was right in their assessment.

It's funny...

For all the accusations of hate and hate mongering directed at Trump, and Trump supporters...

It's those on the Left who are exhibiting all the hate.....

Ironic, isn't it....

But, just for posterity's sake, I am posting what I wrote if Hillary had one...

Hillary won!? Oh shit, we're frak'ed!!

:D

"So say we all"
-Battlestar Galactica

Hillary has shown some real class in her concession speech.. More so than I ever thought possible....

As you know, I am not one of Hillary's greatest fans but, I have never doubted her capacity to act with class and so I was not at all surprised by how she has reacted to this devastating loss.

May President-elect Trump govern with equal grace, compassion and insight as was demonstrated by Secretary Clinton's concession speech.

Kaine's digs at Trump were annoying...

Hillary has shown some real class in her concession speech.. More so than I ever thought possible....

Kudos to Hillary....

https://www.facebook.com/FoxNews/videos/10154778138341336/

Yea... It's the Obamas and the Clintons who have to worry about their safety.. :^/

THAT remains to be seen.

No, the election WAS people powered... There is no doubt of that..

Now, whether Trump GOVERNS as People Power POTUS.. THAT remains to be seen...

In any case, congratulations also Michale. You were right. I know you get so tired of hearing that. :-)

Yea, it wears thin... But only when it's me telling myself. :D heh

Thanx....

Remember that the Republicans still control the Congress, and Trump is not really a Republican.

EXACTLY!!!

Trump is a true INDEPENDENT..

We finally have a TRUE Independent as President.

And you are right. That *IS* uncharted waters....

I am willing to wager that Trump will make deals with Democrats as much as he makes deals with Republicans...

Is it possible for Trump to change his Party Affiliation to INDEPENDENT or NPA after he is sworn in???

*THAT* would be the best possible move for Trump to make, to PROVE he is a POTUS for and of the American people...

No, the election WAS people powered... There is no doubt of that..

Now, whether Trump GOVERNS as People Power POTUS.. THAT remains to be seen...

In any case, congratulations also Michale. You were right. I know you get so tired of hearing that. :-)

Remember that the Republicans still control the Congress, and Trump is not really a Republican.

EXACTLY!!!

Trump is a true INDEPENDENT..

We finally have a TRUE Independent as President.

And you are right. That *IS* uncharted waters....

I am willing to wager that Trump will make deals with Democrats as much as he makes deals with Republicans...

Yea, it wears thin... But only when it's me telling myself. :D heh

Thanx....

I don't think that's accurate at all..

Sure, CW and Liz (and a couple others) expressed some logical and rational reservations about Hillary character and campaign... But to characterize such reservations as hoping she would lose??

Totally inaccurate...

No, I think it's a safe bet that the *ONLY* happy Weigantian today is your's truly... :D

"NO ONE can claim that this was a SPECIAL INTERESTS election or the CORPORATE/LOBBYISTS have won..

This was and is a PURELY PEOPLE POWER Election and it's the PEOPLE who have won.."

THAT remains to be seen. We will just have to see exactly what policies President Trump and the Republicans actually enact. Remember that the Republicans still control the Congress, and Trump is not really a Republican.

We are now entering totally uncharted waters. The American electorate has essentially decided to kick over the apple cart by driving the USA over a cliff into the unknown. It MAY turn out good, or it MAY turn into a HUGE disaster with lots of buyer's remorse. Only time will tell. IF it's a huge disaster, that is what could spark a constitutional crisis. But that's down the road.

In any case, congratulations also Michale. You were right. I know you get so tired of hearing that. :-)

What he said....

I do... Trump has already shown he is being magnanmous, thanking Hillary for her years of public service...

Trump is being a VERY gracious winner.. I dare say a LOT more gracious than Hillary would have been had the roles been reversed..

Trump supporters?? Maybe not so much.. But that's hardly surprising and, considering the attacks and the violence that Trump supporters had to endure, wholly understandable...

I just hope the Obamas get their girls out as soon as they can. America is not a safe place for them anymore.

Oh come now, that's just silly fear-mongering...

I didn't bother taking my meds today because what's the point? What's the point of living to see how bad the world will become.

The point?? Because you might find that you are as wrong about the world going bad as you were about Hillary winning the election...

Believe me, I have been there and have the scars, figuratively and literally, to prove it...

You might be wrong and the world might be a LOT better place because of a Trump presidency...

[81] Yes I hope for her sake that RBG retires at the end of this year and that she gets to spend her remaining years in a country as lovely as New Zealand.

Their emigration policies are brutal though...

Thank you...

The election of Trump is being called a Constitutional crisis, but I think not, at least not yet.

How can it be a Constitutional crisis??? There was an election, there was NO signs of any fraud or cheating.. Trump got the required 270 Electoral Votes and then some...

How could ANYONE possibly say "Constitutional Crisis"??

I want a divorce! I don't have enough money to emigrate. I'm in a Red State, but willing to move.

And what happens if you move to a Blue state and then IT starts doing things that you don't like?? Move again???

Maybe the solution is, instead of demonizing and attacking people who think differently, work WITH them to find and build on the things that ya'all DO have in common??

Just a thought...

Sorry, but Hillary, Wall Street coddlers and DNC insiders who gave it to Hillary are to blame.

You're not going to achieve progress by pointing fingers in the wrong direction like the establishment hacks.

We shall see if the Dems learned the lesson, or still search for scapegoats.

A

Prediction depends upon precedent, but there has been no recent precedent for what occurred last night.* In Germany yes, but not here. As in Germany vs Hitler, the Old Money Elites of the GOP wimped out with respect to Trump, thinking they can control the strongman. They are probably wrong, they will continue to be co-opted.

Mophell, you are right, the Clintons and Obamas should leave while the going is good. No shame in that, they can fight more effectively from afar than in a mock courtroom or cell.

The election of Trump is being called a Constitutional crisis, but I think not, at least not yet. What's happened is a consequence of dysfunctional government resulting from the ground rules set by the Constitution and exploited by both Democrats and Republicans. The net result has been poor representation of the electorate and dysfunctional government. Can the above be fixed within the framework of the Constitution? In theory yes, in practice no. When was the last time an amendment was added to the Constitution? Lack of repair and modification of a dynamic system is just another symptom of systemic dysfunction.

What we really need IS a genuine Constitutional Crisis. A practical, but very bold, solution to the dysfunction is to take a leaf from the Confederate playbook. The Northeastern States are plenty big enough to form an independent nation with a strong economy, a smaller, but more perfect union. Same with the West Coast. (Texas, though red, might want to go it alone on general principles). Would secession result in a 2nd Civil War. Quite possibly, but I don't think it inevitable if the process is negotiated equitably, and how much bad government are you willing to endure and for how long? Trump loves to deal...but The window for initiating this action is fairly short, so act now, before he takes office.

I want a divorce! I don't have enough money to emigrate. I'm in a Red State, but willing to move.

*I'll get to the Civil War

I don't worry about it because there's no point caring about something you can do nothing about. Besides, I'll be too busy worrying how to get by day-to-day in the coming recession. It's going to be tough.

Since Trump's faithful were chanting "Lock her up!" and "Execute Obama" at Trump's victory celebration, I don't think Trump will go against them. He promised this to them. In rally after rally, in speech after speech, he promised this to them. If Clinton is still in the country on January 21 2017, I fully expect she will be arrested.

I just hope the Obamas get their girls out as soon as they can. America is not a safe place for them anymore.

I didn't bother taking my meds today because what's the point? What's the point of living to see how bad the world will become.

But, oddly, I am pleased for you and Liz. You both got what you wanted in one way or another. I'm glad somebody did. I suppose CW did too. He never made his dislike for Clinton a secret.

RBG had promised to retire and moved to New Zealand if Trump became President... :D

For those of you that are annoyed by my previous comment- get used to it.

If you need any pointers on how to piss people off and REALLY get their knickers in knots.....

.... Just let me know.. :D

:D