Let's say you are in negotiation with another party to end years and years of fighting and bloodshed..

let's further postulate that, before every negotiation session the representative from the other side beats the living crap out of you...

You two then proceed to the negotiations...

How long do you think it will be before you say enough is enough!

"Look bub!!! We're not going to talk about ANYTHING until you stop beating the shit out of me!!!"

That's where Israel and the PA is at right now...

NOTHING can negotiated until such time as the PA stops the terrorism...

Michale

Postulate a scenario where a giant spaceship comes to earth and scoops up each and every Israeli and takes them to another planet where they can live free and not be under the gun of terrorism on a daily basis..

Israel is no more.. It doesn't exist..

Do you think the remnants of the region will, all of the sudden become a quiet peaceful people???

Of course not.. They will start fighting amongst themselves... Islam is a religion of war, suffering and conquest... If they have no external enemy to fight, they will fight amongst themselves.. Shia vs Shiite, etc etc...

The problem is not Israel...

The problem is that Islam is where Christianity was two thousand years ago...

So, there will never be peace in ANY region that has an Islam component until such time as Islam grows up...

Michale

Now, of course, your response will be that not ALL Palestinians feel that way..

And I would agree with you on that..

But here's the thing.. Until THOSE people are in power, Israel has absolutely NO ONE to negotiate ANY compromise with...

The Palestinian people elected a terrorist group as their government..

NO ONE will negotiate with a terrorist group...

So, as I said above, the onus for change is on the Palestinians..

All Israel can do is keep defending itself until such time as the Palestinians come to their senses and elect a REAL government that has the interests of the Palestinian people as their first priority..

Michale

Actually, my problem is that sometimes I make things more complicated then they have to be..

The other night, my wife and I were going to bed.. Our light was on in the bedroom and all the other lights were off in the rest of the house.. I noticed for the first time (We have lived in the house for almost 12 years) that, when the bedroom light is on, the light shines thru a vent and lights up ANOTHER vent in the living room. I thought that kinda strange and pointed it out to my wife.. She said, "It's probably a reflection from somewhere else."

Wanting to test that theory, I was jumping up and down trying to get my hands to cover the vent from the bedroom, seeing if such interference in the light path would reflect on the vent in the living room.

My wife watched me do this for a min or so, then calmly went into the bedroom and turned off the light.. The reflection on the vent in the living room disappeared.. I just stood there with a dumbfounded look on my face, while my wife started laughing her ass off.. :D

True story...

Anyways.....

By your analyses, solutions to serious and complicated problems would never be solved.

Of course the problem can be solved.. All the PA has to do is stop using and supporting terrorism...

Israel must demonstrate a certain strength and supremacy over the terrorists by taking some first steps that will help make progress possible.

Palestinians want what the Israelis will never EVER give...

That's the part you don't get...

Nothing but national suicide by Israel will ever satisfy the Palestinians...

Since that is the only stipulation that will please the Palestinians, the onus is on the PA to change their ways..

Not Israel..

Michale

Many Israelis, within and without officialdom, disagree with that assertion. I really do wish the world was uncomplicated and prone to simplistic solutions. Sadly, that is not the world in which we live.

Israel must demonstrate a certain strength and supremacy over the terrorists by taking some first steps that will help make progress possible.

I can't make it any simpler than that. Ahem.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that..

The mind-set required to employ terrorism is at such a depth of depravity that no logical or rational solution is possible..

Any group or individual that employs terrorism proves beyond ANY doubt that they are not looking for solutions and, as such, any searching for solutions is a waste of time and effort..

Put it in another, more simpler way..

You don't negotiate with an animal that is trying to rip your throat out..

You put the animal down in the most efficient and succinct manner possible...

There was talk among a growing number of Israelis and Palestinians of "Two States, One Homeland" which may have some promise buried deep within it.

There can be no promise, no negotiation, no agreement as long as one side resorts to terrorism...

I can't make it any simpler than that...

Michale

I don't believe that it is impossible to get past the blame game, just not in the interests of enough of the players. Perhaps, those interests will never line up. I hope that is not the case.

As for terrorism, as bad as it is for Israel in the neighbourhood and as many factors as there are lined up against the continuing existence of Israel, none of those things is as bad as the scenario in which Israel does not achieve some sort of accommodation with the Palestinians.

Terrorism should not be a door-closer in the process to find a solution to this conflict and, indeed, a solution to this conflict is the only viable pathway toward ending the terrorism.

There was talk among a growing number of Israelis and Palestinians of "Two States, One Homeland" which may have some promise buried deep within it.

To put it in another context...

Imagine someone is in a corporate setting, trying to negotiate something and a guy that is part of the negotiations is a proven and convicted child molester...

Now imagine an interested third party were to say something like, "These negotiations would go a lot smoother if they could just get past the fact that the guy is a child molester.."

Kinda non sequitur, wouldn't you agree???

Somethings just CAN'T be "gotten past"...

Terrorism is one of those things...

Michale

Well, reality is a matter of perspective.

I think trying to apportion appropriate blame is a losing proposition all around and a primary reason why the Middle East Peace Process has become so intractable.

Somehow, if peace with security is ever to be realized between Israelis and Palestinians, then we and they have to get beyond the blame game and understand the reality on both sides of this great divide.

While I understand what you are saying and, intellectually, I agree to a certain extent..

The reality is that any "blame" that can be apportioned to Israel is completely and unequivocally negated by the PA's use and support of terrorism...

Michale

And, nor should the US allow such votes to pass.

This is complicated and Israel is not without its share of blame for where we sit today vis-à-vis the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

"What exactly are you implying about the rest of the World? Are you implying that France, Germany, Great Britain, Italy, etc. etc. are systemically anti-Israeli? That they and dozens of other countries are in a large conspiracy to blame only Israel?"

Any U.N. resolutions that do try to take an even handed approach and place blame on both sides, usually can't get enough votes in order to pass in the first place. This frequently happens when members of the Arab League, for instance, object to such a resolution as a block. The anti-Palestinian wording gets completely dropped, and only the anti-Israel wording remains. Western nations like France and Britain end up agreeing to that kind of "compromise" just to get some kind of resolution passed, and the USA ends up standing its ground and vetoing the whole thing.

"That they and dozens of other countries are in a large conspiracy to blame only Israel?"

Think of Libya under Gadaffi, Uganda under Idi Amin, the Soviet Union under communism, etc. They were in fact all part of a huge block of over 100 Asian, African, and East European nations that were virulently ant-semitic as matter of official policy. Subscribing to a leftist, socialist, anti-imperialist, anti-colonialist ideology, made worse by the fact that they were almost all totalitarian regimes themselves, regarding official resolutions at the United Nations, they routinely voted against Israel, no matter what. So the USA got into the habit of defending Israel, because it had to. This has only recently started to change, with the fall of communism and the spread of democracy to more places in Africa, and Eastern Europe, etc.

"What exactly are you implying about the rest of the World? Are you implying that France, Germany, Great Britain, Italy, etc. etc. are systemically anti-Israeli? That they and dozens of other countries are in a large conspiracy to blame only Israel?"

Yes, and no. A great deal of the rest of the world is very much anti-Israel, and votes in a anti-Israel pro Palestinian knee jerk sort of way, and also votes partly as a block of solidarity, just for the sake of ideological solidarity, regardless of the actual merits of the question at hand. This is true of a lot of the African / Asian block, where the ruling leadership elites have in large part not had to answer to anyone in their own nations in any sort of democratic way. Look at UNESCO in the 1970's for example, and the UN resolution equating Zionism with Racism, before it was finally repealed.

And while other Western nations like Germany or Britain aren't anti-semitic as official policy, they can also take positions that don't rock the boat, so to speak, regarding relations with their Third World Commonwealth partners, in the case of Britain for example, knowing that the USA is going to veto such a resolution anyway and take all the heat for it, thus making themselves look good. How many Western nations, other than the USA, as a matter of routine, abstain on a vote, rather than vote yes, or no, for instance?

Only when it's used in the political context and not the reality context...

As it was when Democrats called Republicans "terrorists"..

What does that say about Democrats??? :D

Michale

I listed THE ECONOMIST article that shows how the 1% (the .001% actually) have gotten better under Obama...

Now you may dispute that those aren't Obama's "policies"... But the fact is, under Obama the rich have got richer and the middle class has gotten scroooed...

And, since Bush is to blame for EVERYTHING that happened under his administration, Obama gets the blame as well...

You can't have it both ways...

Michale

Nope...

A terrorist is a terrorist is a terrorist...

The two are as far apart as night and day....

Look at Syria, Bashir and Putin represent the 'Syria Opposition Forces' as terrorists, we regard them as fighting tyranny.

THEY may define them as terrorists... But that doesn't make it so...

The 'terrorist' label often says more about the people who use it than the people labeled.

Only when it's used in the political context and not the reality context...

Michale

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

Look at Syria, Bashir and Putin represent the 'Syria Opposition Forces' as terrorists, we regard them as fighting tyranny.

The 'terrorist' label often says more about the people who use it than the people labeled.

Indeed I am. :)

Once it became obvious that AGENTS OF SHIELD was going to tie into CIVIL WAR, I told my wife last night that we're going to HAVE to see CIVIL WAR on it's premiere night.. :D

Michale

Not at all..

I completely and unequivocally agree that the PA has completely legitimate grievances against Israel...

But those legitimate grievances are rendered NULL and VOID by the PAs continued use of terrorism to further their agenda...

Ever read Clancy's SUM OF ALL FEARS???

"Get me the President! The Palestinians just figured out how to destroy Israel!!"
-National Security Adviser Jack Ryan, SUM OF ALL FEARS

Michale

I ignore their constant vilification of Israel just as I ignore blindly pro Israeli friends. This is an ugly mess and Israel is doing its best to be humane, for more so than the Palestinian leadership, however the settlement issue and the heavy handedness during punishment operations (e.g. like the recent war in Gaza) should be pointed out to be counter productive and also, in many cases, illegal.

The PA and Hamas are no innocents either and are more to blame for the plight of their people, but there are extremists on both sides and we need to stand up to them and point out their failings. This is better than standing on one side and blindly blaming the other while equally blindly ignoring any extremism on 'your' side. This applies to both sides.

Indeed I am. :)

The US is still committed, to one degree or another, to the MEPP and probably will be until the two-state solution is dead and buried.

I think the implied accusation of a very grand conspiracy against Israel that includes all other major Western Democracies, and that only the U.S. can see what is really happening is bizarre.

Does blowing them up and shooting them count?? :D

Michale

Once again, I find myself agreeing with Michale here.

This is becoming a habit.. :D

Michale

That IS what the facts indicate....

Michale

Well, yer half right.. :D

Can you see things that you don't want to? Do you think that the PA and Hamas are the only ones who should have to answer the allegations of crimes against them?

The problem is two fold..

1> There are no "allegations" against the PA and Hamas. It's bona fide, documented FACT...

and

B> The allegations against Israel are politically/ideologically motivated and have no basis in fact...

Let me give you an example of B...

The IDF drops leaflets on an area, advising the population to evacuate as the area will come under military attack... PA government officials herd civilians into those areas and then scream "WAR CRIMES!!!" when Israel follows thru with it's promised attack...

The only war crime is on the part of the PA for using civilians as human shields..

Michale

What exactly are you implying about the rest of the World? Are you implying that France, Germany, Great Britain, Italy, etc. etc. are systemically anti-Israeli? That they and dozens of other countries are in a large conspiracy to blame only Israel?

"And why don't you mention any of the BLATANT, CONSTANT and ON-GOING war crimes of the PA???"

Once again, I find myself agreeing with Michale here.

If I remember correctly, the main official reasoning that the USA gives for vetoing UN resolutions like this, is that that are totally and completely one sided, and blame only Israel, while never acknowledging any Arab or Palestinian actions and responsibility, like launching rockets at completely civilian targets instead of military ones.

If they were really fair and balanced and equally condemned the actions of both sides, the USA could then support that kind of resolution.

How much time did you spend working with the PA or Hamas?

Have you ever read "From Beirut to Jerusalem" by Thomas Friedman?

This is like something I read in Joseph Heller's Catch-22.

The allegations are in the document I sent you, and other U.N. documents that investigated the actions.

Can you see things that you don't want to? Do you think that the PA and Hamas are the only ones who should have to answer the allegations of crimes against them?

OK. The war crimes committed by the PA and Hamas are, in my reading, more frequent and more horrendous than those committed by Israel. The people responsible should be in front of the court in The Hague standing next to any other accused war criminals to answer for their crimes.

And why don't you mention any of the BLATANT, CONSTANT and ON-GOING war crimes of the PA???

Michale

How many times a year do you visit Israel and the Western Bank.

Although not recently, I spent a lot of time in Israel working and training with the IDF...

My experience in the region may be dated but, from all reports, it's still the same over there..

You really think that Israel has committed no crimes? You really think this is a case of "goodies" and "baddies"?

As long as the PA resorts to terrorism, that is EXACTLY what the case is..

Good guys = Israel

Bad guys = PA

This report resulted in a vote to hold Israel accountable for war crimes, but the U.S. vetoed it (and was the sole vote against).

And what "war crimes" were those, exactly???

Michale

That was supposed to stop. I'll work on it.

hehehehe It's kinda a pain...

What it should look like is this:

{I}This is where your italicized text goes.{/I}

Now replace the brackats { } with the greater than/less than symbols and you should be good to go...

Michale

Exactly!!

until and unless there is a partner willing to stop trying to erase israel from existence, there's no point in israel negotiating away the land it feels entitled to based on pre-1948 treaties. if the PA feels differently, it can come to the table and negotiate with words, not guns. as long as they continue to make their point with knives, guns and bombs instead of by good-faith negotiation, their point of view and their territorial claims will not have a legitimate basis upon which to be seriously considered.

I just got chills!

Well said, JL... VERY well said...

Michale

Probably for the same reason we trusted Pelosi when she made HER moron comment of the same nature...

:D

Michale

Captain America!

Yer right!!! :D It was completely subconscious!! I should have Movie Quote'ized it.. :D

Are you as excited as I am about the upcoming CIVIL WAR movie??

It looks like MARVEL is going to do a tie in with AGENTS OF SHIELD like they did with the CA Winter Soldier movie... :D

Michale

Zimmerman is a spoiled brat whose need to play cop resulted in a kid dying and so he ran to the gun nuts & racists for cover because they were going to buy his story.

Actually, nothing you said is factual...

By why let facts ruin a good ignorant rant, eh? :D

I'd have a lot more sympathy for Israel is they cut the settlements free and stopped stealing more land.

It's THEIR land!???

How can they "steal" their own land???

Israel is no more "stealing" land than you and I and every other American is "stealing" land from Native Americans..

Michale

Thanks, Paula [83]. Didn't realize we were playing with basic html. Thanks.

all this said, it is still the goal of many israelis to get out of the west bank and gaza, but they've learned the hard way that to continue to exist, they need to negotiate from a position of strength.

from the jewish virtual library:

Israelis themselves are their own harshest critics. If you want to read criticism of Israeli behavior, you do not need to seek out anti-Israel sources, you can pick up any Israeli newspaper

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFdelegitimization.html

israel is a very real parliamentary democracy in a part of the world that sees democracy as nothing more than a catch-phrase for western imperialism. palestinian arabs who stayed in israel, instead of leaving and trying to destroy it, became israeli citizens and have all the same rights as jewish citizens of israel.

israel has demonstrated many times that it is willing to negotiate and cede land in return for not being attacked, as happened with egypt in 1979 - but whenever israel gives up territory to the PA, as it did unilaterally in gaza in 2005, it is attacked more, not less.

if someone has been trying for seventy years to kill you and drive you into the ocean, the onus is on them to change that goal before they can be considered a realistic negotiating partner, not on you to treat them as if they had decided to behave more reasonably. my brother in law LIVES in the west bank, and he's not some fundamentalist loon, he's just living and working like anybody else.

until and unless there is a partner willing to stop trying to erase israel from existence, there's no point in israel negotiating away the land it feels entitled to based on pre-1948 treaties. if the PA feels differently, it can come to the table and negotiate with words, not guns. as long as they continue to make their point with knives, guns and bombs instead of by good-faith negotiation, their point of view and their territorial claims will not have a legitimate basis upon which to be seriously considered.

JL

Oddly, tere's something similar to what I just wrote.

>>>
But while these proposals will give restive Republicans something to run on, they will also give Democrats something to run against — a lesson Ryan knows well after seeing his entitlement slashing budget proposals show up in years of Democratic attack ads.
>>> (how do you all get your quotes in Italics on this blog?)

Perhaps if Ryan was willing to anger his wealthy donors as much as he did his left-leaning constituents and opponents, he might have told us what loopholes he was going to close in order to make his budget "math" work (and, yes, with Ryan budgets, "math" requires scare quotes).

Great pair of articles, Thu and Fri. However, you sound "surprised." Not really, but as if this were new.

It's funny (OK, not like haha funny) but Romney was going to make a bunch of cuts to shrink gov't, but we were going to have to wait until after the election to find out what cuts he would make. Not sure why he thought we would trust him if he didn't come out and state them ahead of time so that we could vote if we agreed with him.

I know he caught flak in Mass when he proposed cuts to their Dept of Ed and I know he claims he was taken out of context and I know that in politics, if you're explaining, you're losing. But still, put the ideas on the table and let us vote (tell us your ingredient list and let us make purchasing decisions, so to speak).

It doesn't end there, of course. As Krugman has been pointing out for years, Ryan's "budgets" have always claimed they would make specific cuts to the poors and balance by closing unspecified loopholes. Never did tell us which loopholes he was going to close, though.

This is par for the course for the GOP. They know their ideas are unpopular when one gets into the weeds with specifics (rather than grand sounding platitudes) and very attackable. It's not even that we're in this populist/hate election year. It's been like this for many, many years.

Last bit of evidence. Debt increased tremendously under W and GOP Congress. Deficit, not so much. All of their spending increases managed to find their way off budget. Just like the most recent use of the Overseas Contingency Fund to hide their military spending increases from the deficit.

Dishonest and BS!

Do you think the US should not have vetoed that vote?

You really think that Israel has committed no crimes? You really think this is a case of "goodies" and "baddies"?

This is a level of naiveté only a really closed mind could believe.

Read something you don't want to - it is good for you:

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HRC/CoIGazaConflict/Pages/ReportCoIGaza.aspx#report

This report resulted in a vote to hold Israel accountable for war crimes, but the U.S. vetoed it (and was the sole vote against).

Captain America!

The will of the Palestinian people is geared towards terrorism and the annihilation of Israel and her people...

How many times a year do you visit Israel and the Western Bank.

Thought so.

Zimmerman is a spoiled brat whose need to play cop resulted in a kid dying and so he ran to the gun nuts & racists for cover because they were going to buy his story.

Israel is a pretend Western Democracy in a part of the world that hasn't figured out how to involve people in the governing process yet. Obviously Israel isn't at the adult table either.

I'd have a lot more sympathy for Israel is they cut the settlements free and stopped stealing more land.

Insofar as ignorant mor....er... people castigate Israel for defending itself in the same manner that ignorant mor....er... people castigated George Zimmerman for defending himself..

Michale

Quit being so literal..

I was referring to the concept of self-defense...

Michale

george zimmerman has had his cultural and religious home in central florida for five thousand years, and trayvon martin has been shooting rockets at him? do tell!

Well, I am sure glad that it's only TRUMP supporters who are violent!!

"Dood looks like a lady..."
-Aerosmith

:D

Michale

It's hard to tell where Hillary's nose ends and Obama's ass begins... :^/

Michale

Now, where have I heard this before??? hmmmmmmmmm

:D

Michale

I can agree with this..

The will of the Israeli people is geared towards the safety and survival of their family and friends..

The will of the Palestinian people is geared towards terrorism and the annihilation of Israel and her people...

The government of Israel herds their citizens into shelters at the signal of an attack..

The government of the Palestinians herd their citizens towards the site of the attack...

http://www.jpost.com/HttpHandlers/ShowImage.ashx?id=214969&h=530&w=758

That tells one all they need to know about the conflict in the region and which government is morally, legally and ethically in the right.....

Michale

The ONLY thing Israel is guilty of is self-defense...

Michale

Michale

Nope.. I want them to have the Palestinians the Sinai Peninsula...

Egypt was part of the 3 countries that caused the problem. They should be part of the solution to the problem..

I am not saying the solution would work in the here and now. To much hatred on all sides.....

But it does have the advantage of being logical and rational...

Israel has the better army at the moment, and are doing a good job suppressing the Palestinians, however I have no doubt that if the situations were reversed both parties would be conducting the same war in the same way.

I disagree.. Islam is where christianity was two thousand years ago...

Christianity is civilized.. Islam is not..

Michale

One for you Michale.

If economics could solve the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian war (let's face it, that is what it is), it would have been solved long ago.

They are sitting on the World's biggest tourist attraction. They could make London, Paris, Las Vegas and New York combined look like Cleveland, OH in December in comparison - who wouldn't want to visit - I'd love to go if I could take my family safely. They'd all be rich, but there is this small problem of religion and tradition - both sides think their religion entitles them to the same ground and both throw up historical 'facts' that they interpret as proof that it is their land.

Israel has the better army at the moment, and are doing a good job suppressing the Palestinians, however I have no doubt that if the situations were reversed both parties would be conducting the same war in the same way.

I'm no fan of the leaders of either sides, both are exploiting the situation to gain power for themselves and have little interest in solving the problems, but they reflect the will of the people at the moment.

Thomas Friedman wrote a book comparing flashpoints around the world a long time ago. He predicted that the depth of hatred between the protestants and catholics in Northern Ireland (which has been inflamed for hundreds of years) would outlast the Balkans, Palestine, etc.

He was wrong I'm glad to say - and if the catholics and protestants in Northern Ireland can sit down at the same table, anybody can.

There is hope for Israel and Palestine, but it needs a much better class of leader that we currently have on both sides.

Is this the same Egypt that earlier this month announced that Messi donating his football boots to an Egyptian charity auction was the biggest single insult in the 7,000 years of their civilization?

And you want them to hand the U.S. the Sinai Peninsula?

That is so outlandish it is funny. Why don't you go to Tarhir Square with some pamphlets to that effect. Wear your Trump hat for protection so they know you are mentally imbalanced and only beat you up and imprison you instead of killing you on the spot. (Note: Please don't - I'd miss you round here.)

I can do this all day... :D

Yes, you can avoid the question all day. But it just makes you look like you can't answer the question and won't admit you are wrong.

The question is: What policies did Obama champion that favored the 1% at the expense of the middle class?

You are answering: Did the 1% improve relative to the middle class in the last 7 years? - I already know the answer to that one.

"and what's your big idea, Michale???"

I am glad someone asked that.. :D

http://sjfm.us/temp/MichalesBigIdea

Egypt gives up all control to The Sinai which becomes New Palestine...

Syria (this idea was formed pre-civil war) and Jordan pay to create pre-fab cities and re-locate all Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza to the new homeland..

The United States or NATO provides security for the fledgling state....

Egypt signs a share agreement with New Palestine for the Suez Canal...

This idea has the advantage of making those countries who are most responsible for the situation, then ones most responsible for fixing the situation...

With the right investments, New Palestine could become a tourist mecca with seaside communities all along the Med and the Red Sea...

It could work.. All it would take is the will, cooperation and a little luck...

Michale

No, it doesn't. He wasn't responsible for Iraq, yet he had to clean it up.

You're failing so you're trying to change the subject - what policies did Obama champion that favored the 1% at the expense of the middle class - c'mon, he's been President for over 7 years and you claim it is a fact - there must be some policy you can point to. (Or if not, do you have the integrity to admit you are wrong?)

THAT's my point....

I have no Party.. :D

That's what gives me the advantage.. :D

Michale

See if you can find some real economists who can point to policies that Obama has championed that help the 1% but hurt the middle class.

http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21631129-it-001-who-are-really-getting-ahead-america-forget-1

I can do this all day... :D

Michale

I'm swooning. :D

If not for that one point, and the return of the Palestinians to the intifada and terrorism, they could have ended the occupation a long time ago. You either accept reality and get the best deal you can, or not.

That is a corollary to my point.. The Palestinians are their own worst enemies and never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity...

They simply do not DESERVE their own state, but my idea would give them one. A BIG one.. A NICE one...

But they are too married to terrorism to realize the reality...

Michale, really??? You can't see that the two parties have switched ideologies in modern times from what they were historically generations ago???

But that doesn't change the reality of the history.. Ya'all would like to forget and/or gloss over that when black people were lynched, it was a DEMOCRAT holding the rope..

You cannot legitimately point fingers at any Party without acknowledging the sins of your own Party...

THAT's my point....

Michale

No matter who you want to blame, we are eviscerating our middle class in this country.

Do you agree that Obama and the Democrats have some responsibility in this???

No, I didn't receive Michale. Try to understand the question, what policies has Obama put in place that have specifically targeted the 1% at the expense of the middle class.

Obama was in charge.. That makes him responsible..

Just like when Bush was in charge, ya'all blamed him for EVERYTHING.....

It works both ways...

Michale

No, I didn't receive Michale. Try to understand the question, what policies has Obama put in place that have specifically targeted the 1% at the expense of the middle class.

Peter Ferrara - of the Heartland Institute - is a well know policy clown and fervent anti-Obama mouthpiece for the far right wing.

See if you can find some real economists who can point to policies that Obama has championed that help the 1% but hurt the middle class.

Waiting (and I will be for a long time).

"Give me the name of a Democrat who taunted Jackie Robinson and is now a Republican.. :D
Face the facts, Neil.. The Democrat Party was the Party of the KKK and racism..."

Michale, really??? You can't see that the two parties have switched ideologies in modern times from what they were historically generations ago???

No matter who you want to blame, we are eviscerating our middle class in this country.

I remember watching E.T. as a teenager before I came to America and one of the stunning scenes for me was when some kids younger than me ordered delivery pizza without their (single) mum knowing. You'd have been skelped alive if you'd pulled that stunt in the U.K. - and the pizza would have been sent back. Also, the size of the houses people lived in when I came to visit relatives over here always amazed me - and the size of the cars.

America's relative distance in wealth between the 1970's and today has shrunk dramatically.

"That land is Israel's.. It was won in a war that Israel didn't start, but did finish...
The Palestinians are a conquered people. Too bad, so sad, that's life...
The land in question is no more Palestinian land than your land is Native American land.. I am also constrained to point out that Palestinians, by their continued use and support of terrorism, have absolutely NO moral, legal or ethical foundation whatsoever..."

I have to defend Michale here again, imagine that! He actually does have a point. Though not the exact one he is making.

The Palestinians could have had an independent state over 15 years ago, when, I believe it was Ehud Barak was Prime Minister of Israel and Yassier Arafat was still alive and head of the Palestinians.

They had actually come to an agreement where the Palestinians were going to receive slightly over 90 percent of the occupied land of the West Bank, as well as a large portion of East Jerusalem for a Palestinian capital, and a corridor link to the Gaza Strip. But the one thing the Palestinians would not give up and the Israelis would not agree to, was the right of return for a substantial number of Palestinians to Israel itself. Why agree to a two state solution, if both states wind up being majority Palestinian by population?

If not for that one point, and the return of the Palestinians to the intifada and terrorism, they could have ended the occupation a long time ago. You either accept reality and get the best deal you can, or not.

The land in question is no more Palestinian land than your land is Native American land..

Having said that, there is a very simple solution to the entire Israel/Palestinian situation..

All it takes is the political will to allow bygones to be bygones... The Palestinians could live in peace side by side with Israel if they would just be content to live in peace side by side with Israel...

But the Palestinians want to deny Israel it's existence.. And that's why they're morally, ethically and legally in the wrong...

Michale

Really!!

Prove it..

Give me the name of a Democrat who taunted Jackie Robinson and is now a Republican.. :D

Face the facts, Neil.. The Democrat Party was the Party of the KKK and racism...

But you prove point for me.. It's the victors who write the history.. You bring up the racism of the past all the time but neglect to mention that THAT racism was perpetrated by Democrats.

Revisionist history..

Michale

http://www.progressivestoday.com/under-obamanomics-the-rich-get-richer-while-the-poor-get-poorer/

Ask and ye shall receive.. :D

Me. And they aren't the 'Republicans' trade deals - TPP and TTIP were negotiated by Obama's

Of course... :D

and they are a good thing for this country

So, Republicans are supporting things that are "good" for this country and Democrats are opposing them..

That about sum it up?? :D

Michale

They were Democrats...

Who are now Republicans. Try to keep up with the arc of history Michale. Harriet Tubman was a Republican, but it seems that the screams of horror about her are all coming from the Republican side of the country.

Yea.. It's ALL Netanyahu's fault..

The scumbag terrorists are completely blameless..

You can't be so naive to think that he isn't playing the venal policy - "they are going to attack us anyway, we may as well get something from it (i.e. their land),

That land is Israel's.. It was won in a war that Israel didn't start, but did finish...

The Palestinians are a conquered people. Too bad, so sad, that's life...

The land in question is no more Palestinian land than your land is Native American land..

When you give all your land and possessions back to Native Americans then and ONLY then, will you have a moral foundation to complain about how Israel handles the Palestinian/land issue...

I am also constrained to point out that Palestinians, by their continued use and support of terrorism, have absolutely NO moral, legal or ethical foundation whatsoever...

Michale

Me. And they aren't the 'Republicans' trade deals - TPP and TTIP were negotiated by Obama's officials and they are a good thing for this country - they will increase overall wealth while creating winners and losers - what we need to do is help the losers (who are not Trump type 'losers', just good people in the wrong job at the wrong time) to find another job or retire early with dignity.

If the deal is written with Americans in mind instead of just corporations they can be a big win for us, both economically and strategically (China wants TPP to fail so they can put their own brand of China-centric trade deal).

It is like Obamacare, if you take the key provisions and ask if people think they are good for America the majority agree (I'll find a link to the poll I read on this a couple of months ago), however if you Bernie or Donald soundbite it you can make it 'stupid'.

BTW, on international trade Bernie sounds like a middle-schooler to me. Sorry those feeling 'the Bern', but he seems to have no idea about globalization - it doesn't happen because of trade deals, trade deals are good for America because they attempt to level the playing field that was tipping against American workers by globalization forces. Take NAFTA, remember the 'great sucking sound' - well who does The Donald blame for job losses - not Mexico, they're the rapists who come here to take our jobs, in case you haven't been following his uniquely wrong logic, instead he blames the Chinese - perhaps if we had the equivalent of NAFTA with the Chinese, Donald would be railing on about the Vietnamese, Indians, etc. instead.

Really? It is indisputable that Democrats have put policies in place that help the 1%. Please enlighten me.

Why doesn't he try to stop them then? He encourages more attacks with his West Bank settlement policy. He knows that more attacks make Israeli's more hawkish and thus will vote for the authoritarian party. You can't be so naive to think that he isn't playing the venal policy - "they are going to attack us anyway, we may as well get something from it (i.e. their land), so screw them."

Another point where your argument falls down is that the gun carnage in our country is worse than the violence in Israel - take just yesterday for example, but it is early this Sunday, we could have another 8 executed and frankly nobody cares any longer - it is barely news. But somebody is stabbed in Jerusalem and it is headline news.

Can you imagine if the Palestinians had second amendment rights - the right wing would be closing them down immediately - oh wait, they already did.

Nope.. I just deal in facts..

And the FACT is that the 1% have gotten richer and more comfortable under Obama and the Democrats and the middle class has been screwed over time and time again..

This is well documented and completely indisputable...

But I am sure you will dispute it.

Ideological slavery and all that.. :D

Michale

Why is that???

You mean like raising the minimum wage, etc.? If you think Obama has been trying to win over the 1% then you are delusional.

Michale

I thought it was the democratic values and reverence for national independence that Britain shared with the US. Did Mr Obama have any sense at all that what he was now urging the British electorate to accept was precisely the surrender of those sacred principles of democratically accountable government and self-determination for which the combined American and British forces had made their ultimate sacrifice?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/23/why-should-we-take-advice-from-a-president-who-has-surrendered-t/

For a smart guy, Obama can be pretty stoopid....

Michale

"Talk about moving the goal posts!! :D"

Not really, I was just trying to get you to concede that the USA does in fact have a stake in whether the UK stays in or leaves the European Union after all, given all the possible ramifications of either choice, of either leaving or staying.

Oh ya'all CAN think for yerselves.... That's what makes all of this so frustrating!! :D

As far as why I stay??

Hope springs eternal... :D

Michale

Why do you spend so much time on people who can't think for themselves. There must be something better to do.

But I WILL say that the EU's total cluster-frak of handling the refugee crisis is sure a good reason to part ways with the EU....

Michale

Talk about moving the goal posts!! :D

Let's stick to the UK leaving the EU....

All of the fear-mongering of what would happen if the UK left the EU is just that..

Fear mongering..

The world will continue to spin on it's axis.. The US and the UK will still enjoy a special relationship...

There are many benefits to the UK leaving the EU, not the least of which is the benefit of self-determination...

Personally, I don't have an opinion either way..

But I do know two things..

1- Obama interfering in the UK decision is abso-tively and posi-loutly no different than than Netanyahu interfering in the US decision over the Iran debacle... Netanyahu has MORE of a stake in "interfering" than Obama has...

and

B- If the UK leaves or stays, we will all still wake up in the morning, put on our pants one leg at a time (for those that wear pants :D ), go to work, go home and absolutely nothing in our daily lives will change...

The issue of this discussion is NOT whether a Brexit is a good thing or a bad thing.. Ya'all say it would be a bad thing. Of course ya'all would think that because OBAMA thinks that...

The issue of this discussion is whether or not there any any similarities between Obama's interference and Netanyahu's interference..

And, other than the points I outlined, there is absolutely and positively no difference whatsoever...

Michale

"The US and the UK had a great relationship before the EU (and Hussein Obama) and the US and the UK will have a great relationship after the EU (and Hussein Obama) goes the way of the dodo..."

But it's not JUST about the relationship between the UK and the USA is it???

What about the effect of Britain's influence in Europe and in the world? What about the impact on the EU of Britain leaving? What about the fact that if Britain leaves the EU, Scotland may hold another referendum and leave the UK in order to stay in the EU with Ireland? What effect would that have on the remaining rump of the UK, like the loss of the USA's nuclear submarine base in Scotland? I could go on, but I think maybe do you get the idea???

And how do we KNOW that Bush was doing the right things??

Because Hussein Obama did the same things and even expanded them... :D

Michale

Really?

Yes, really...

The US and the UK had a great relationship before the EU (and Hussein Obama) and the US and the UK will have a great relationship after the EU (and Hussein Obama) goes the way of the dodo...

Michale

Obama can do no wrong..

They hilarious thing is... They are doing the EXACT same things....

Bush had to do the right thing while fighting terrorists *AND* Democrats...

Apparently, there wasn't much difference between the two at the time...

Michale