I don't have a problem with it..

Michale

Exactly...

You can bet that Trump will RELISH showing the American people how Obama had lied, lied and lied...

Michale

Probably true.

Indubitably true if Trump moves in there.

Not a joke!

So, you can't back up your argument...

And, of course, you won't....

Not until there is a Republican President in the White House...

Michale

I have not seen, heard or read anything about torture being authorized or used under the Obama administration - your gut instincts, notwithstanding.

"Do you think Obama would continue and expand ALL of Bush's CT policies except for that one??? :D"
-Michale, [ Wednesday, March 9th, 2016 at 09:26 PST ]

Yes.

What makes you think this is the case in EVERYTHING except torture???

Because President If-You-Like-Your-Healthplan-You-Can-Keep-Your-Healthplan Obama says so??

Michale

Of course the one who says torture is NOT OK is notorious for paying lip service to a thing and then doing it anyways..

the Obama administration has VASTLY expanded drone warfare far beyond what occurred under the Bush administration.

"Do you think Obama would continue and expand ALL of Bush's CT policies except for that one??? :D"
-Michale, [ Wednesday, March 9th, 2016 at 09:26 PST ]

:D

Michale

In the field of counter terrorism, it's simply impossible to tell them [Bush and Obama] apart...

Not so!

Aside from their differing stances on the use of torture - a very distinctive difference - the Obama administration has VASTLY expanded drone warfare far beyond what occurred under the Bush administration. But, that is a very important subject for another informed debate!

Being dismissive instead of backing up your argument? Typical...

Stating the fact that things are different now than they were 75 years ago is an argument that requires no back-up...

Michale

In the field of counter terrorism, it's simply impossible to tell them apart...

See comment #209...

Michale

Military history or appeal to authority?

Fine.. Then display your evidence that proves me wrong...

Again? How many times do I have to post links? How about you back up your pro torture argument with a link before I re-post the ones I have posted before...

And you don't think the fact that you had to go back over 75 years to make your point colors your position just slightly??

Well, if you bothered to read the rest of my sentence that you left out of your quote... any reason for that? Hard to take you seriously if you can't even finish reading a sentence.

Yea, that's what I thought. Let's face it, Bashi.. The ONLY reason you are calling me a liar is SOLELY and COMPLETELY because you don't like what I am saying...

Well, certainly in your delusional mind. In reality, it's because I have read quite a bit on the subject and disagree with your position.

In other words, if we were back in then 1940s, then you would have a point..

But we're not, so you don't..

Being dismissive instead of backing up your argument? Typical...

Do you recall what happened to him at the end of the movie?

I do.. But it's Leftist Hollywood. I expect nothing less...

Still one of the all time classic military movies..

Gave us JAG, NCIS, NCIS LA and NCIS New Orleans... See if you can find Admiral Chegwidden from JAG in A FEW GOOD MEN

Not a big fan of NOLA.. I love Scott Bakula but his cajun persona is er... uh... torture.. :D

Michale

Gotcha... {wink wink} :D

Do you think Obama would continue and expand ALL of Bush's CT policies except for that one??? :D

If so, I have some swampland in Florida to sell you...

Michale

Do you recall what happened to him at the end of the movie?

For the record, the Obama administration has not authorized the use of torture - by any US official or by any individual acting on behalf of the US government.

Perhaps... But anyone who thinks that loud music constitutes torture???

Obviously believes that teenage children "tortures" their parents on a daily basis.. :D

As far as who made that determination??

" Well, I submit to you that whoever wrote that memo has never faced the working end of a Soviet-made Cuban AK-47 assault rifle. "
-Colonel Nathan R Jessup
Commander Ground Forces
Guantanamo Bay, Cuba
A FEW GOOD MEN

Which is EXACTLY why Obama uses the CIA to perform such activities... Since they are not subject to the UCMC and the applicable provisions of the USAFM...

Michale

Michale

That is why I am so glad that you are not in any position to influence what those manuals have to say about the definition and use of torture.

And, that's all I have to say on this topic, for now, as this discussion has become quite torturous, not to mention frustratingly tortuous. :)

They are acting under orders from the President..

But, AS CIVILIANS, they are not subject to the UCMJ or the USAFM.....

The UCMJ and the USAFM have complete bearing on the legality and morality of the use of torture by US officials - civilian CT or military or intelligence - or by any individual or individuals on behalf of the US government, inside or outside of the United States.

No, it does not... The UCMJ and the USAFM are only applicable to MILITARY members....

It's why, if a civilian secretary employed by the US Army is arrested for DUI, she is not prosecuted under the auspices of the UCMJ but rather by civilian law...

The CIA is not subject to the UCMJ or the USAFM...

It's that simple...

Michale

Okay, so now you're just being purposefully obtuse. :)

Are the vast majority of intel officials in the CT field acting on their own when they engage in torture or are they acting on behalf of US officials. This is a very simple question to answer.

The UCMJ and the USAFM have complete bearing on the legality and morality of the use of torture by US officials - civilian CT or military or intelligence - or by any individual or individuals on behalf of the US government, inside or outside of the United States.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/03/09/pentagon-admits-has-deployed-military-spy-drones-over-us/81474702/

And, of course, the entirety of the Left Wingery will rise up and condemn such actions!!!!!

{{{chiirrrrrpppppppp}}} {{{{chiirrrrrrpppppp}}}}

You know what's going to be most fun about a Trump Presidency???

It's to laugh at the Left Wingery when they get batshit hysterical crazy over the actions of President Trump..

Identical actions that they were COMPLETELY SILENT on during Obama's Presidency..

It's gonna be a hoot!! :D

Michale

Those are two seperate and distinct agencies... Which is my whole point..

The vast majority of intelligence officials in the CT field are civilians...

Which is why the UCMJ and the USAFM have no bearing..

Let me make it easier ... I would just like to know how your definition of torture differs from how those manuals define torture.

Ahhhh That does make it easier...

The updated manual believes the same thing that the Left Wingery believes... That being mean and making a subject uncomfortable constitutes "torture"...

I don't...

Michale

Oh, they most certainly do have bearing, Michale.

Unless, of course, the civilians carrying out the torture are acting on their own and not on behalf of US military or intelligence officials.

Oh, they most certainly do have bearing, Michale.

Unless, of course, the civilians carrying out the torture are action on their own and not on behalf of US military or intelligence officials.

I'm not looking for specific details, Michale.

Let me make it easier ... I would just like to know how your definition of torture differs from how those manuals define torture.

So, humour me, what constitutes torture according to the US Army field manual.

I'll be happy to indulge you, but the USAFM and the UCMJ has not bearing on this issue because it's a civilian run program...

Do you want the FM 34-52 INTELLIGENCE INTERROGATION MANUAL or the updated FM 2-22.3 HUMAN INTELLIGENCE COLLECTOR OPERATIONS manual??

Either choice will result in a lengthy post running several pages...

Perhaps if I just gave you links???

The CIA is a big part of the long war, and its partners in this long war include all branches of the US military and military installations, such as Gitmo. So, I'm not sure how you can say that my question to you is irrelevant. Unless, of course, your intention is to deflect the question.

It has no relevance because the UCMJ and the USAFM deal with restrictions on military personnel vis a vis interrogations. The vast majority of interrogations were done by civilians... Therefore the UCMJ and the USAFM have no bearing...

Michale

I am saying the impact on men and women who perform such tasks is similar...

How so?

What impact does sending young men and women into combat have on said men and women??

Are you equating combat with torture, Michale?

Certainly not with respect to the use of torture.

It is relevant to what interrogation tactics amount to torture and how the UCMJ matches up with what you believe constitutes torture.

So, humour me, what constitutes torture according to the US Army field manual.

The CIA is a big part of the long war, and its partners in this long war include all branches of the US military and military installations, such as Gitmo. So, I'm not sure how you can say that my question to you is irrelevant. Unless, of course, your intention is to deflect the question.

I am saying the impact on men and women who perform such tasks is similar...

Should we stop sending men and women to war because of that impact??

Of course not.... Why???

Because The Ends Justifies The Means..

Michale

The immediate goal of torture is to illicit co-operation... Once co-operation is established, the actionable intel comes....

That's why I always have a laugh when someone says, "Oh a terrorist will tell the interrogator what they want to hear, just to get the torture to stop!!"

Anyone who says that is proving beyond ANY doubt that they are completely ignorant of the subject matter...

I don't mean that to be insulting to Listen..... It's simply a statement of fact..

"There is no dishonor in not knowing everything."
-Subcommander T'al, STAR TREK, The Enterprise Incident

Michale

Are you equating combat with torture?

Are you familiar with the concept of The Ends Justifies The Means

Do you agree with it??

Michale

Apparently, no consequences at all...

and what impact does the use of torture have on the practitioners?

Let me answer this question by asking a question of my own..

What impact does sending young men and women into combat have on said men and women??

What does the US Army field manual say about what constitutes torture? Or, is that super top secret?

Not super secret.. Just not relevant to the discussion at hand...

US military rules and regulations have as much to do with this aspect of Counter Terrorism as Neighborhood Watch Rules and Regulations have to do with T.N.T. Operations..

It's apples and orangutans...

Why do you think it's the CIA that does this sort of thing?? They are outside the chain of command and not subject to the UCMJ

Michale

In response to LWYH, you said,

You are under the mistaken impression that torture is used to produce intel..

Let's be crystal clear in this discussion. What do you believe is the purpose of the use of torture?

What does the US Army field manual say about what constitutes torture? Or, is that super top secret?

Oh, really?

When discussing torture and whether US officials should ever engage in it, condone it or authorize it, it shouldn't make any difference if said torture leads directly to the extraction of actionable intel or not.

Let me approach it from another angle in the form of another question ... two questions, really:

What consequences will befall a liberal democracy that chooses to practice the use of torture and what impact does the use of torture have on the practitioners?

Torture is coercive interrogation, but a coercive interrogation need not be torture...

To be able to answer your question properly, we would have to agree on what constitutes torture..

In Left Wingery circles simply making a subject uncomfortable (loud music, sleep deprivation, temperature fluctuations) constitutes "torture"..

All of those are part and parcel to coercive interrogations.. All of those are not "torture" as I define torture...

Michale

Here's a question for you that will help me understand your stance on this issue:

What is the difference, in general, between torture and coercive interrogation and, in particular, with respect to what each is supposed to achieve?

I do...

Some other comments you have made [184-185] clearly suggest that you have not had any involvement, whatsoever, with anything having to do with torture.

It's ambiguous by design...

By the way, your cockroach question doesn't make any sense. Which is why I have chosen not to answer it.

It makes PERFECT sense once you take into account my mindset...

You still don't understand my stance on torture and that it really has nothing to do with any concern for the well-being of terrorists.

If you don't care about the well-being of terrorists then there is no valid or logical reason to oppose torture that DOES render accurate and actionable intelligence...

Michale

That was a rather interesting comment.

It begs a question ... by coercive interrogations, do you mean to say torture?

Some other comments you have made [184-185] clearly suggest that you have not had any involvement, whatsoever, with anything having to do with torture.

By the way, your cockroach question doesn't make any sense. Which is why I have chosen not to answer it.

You still don't understand my stance on torture and that it really has nothing to do with any concern for the well-being of terrorists.

Would ya'all hesitate to step on a cockroach if it would save hundreds, thousands or even ONE innocent life??

Anyone??? Anyone?? Beuhler???

Michale

This has been well documented, even by Obama Administration officials when they were caught speaking candidly and off the record..

It's only those that want to toe the Politically Correct line who will claim that coercive interrogations do not work...

Michale

For example...????

He has also admitted he was basically a grunt. He has hinted at his "experience with enhanced interrogation". It was low level field stuff and not what we are taking about with the CIA.

Who do you think spent more time with the scumbags?? The CIA interrogators???

Or the grunts who commanded the grunts who guarded them??

Think about it..

I was not impressed, and will not take him at his word. Sorry.

Fine.. Then display your evidence that proves me wrong...

{{{chiirrrrrppppp}}} {{chirrrrpppp}}

Yea, that's what I thought. Let's face it, Bashi.. The ONLY reason you are calling me a liar is SOLELY and COMPLETELY because you don't like what I am saying...

As I have mentioned in previous threads, I was talking about the top interrogators for Nazi Germany, WWII Britain

And you don't think the fact that you had to go back over 75 years to make your point colors your position just slightly??

In other words, if we were back in then 1940s, then you would have a point..

But we're not, so you don't..

Michale

You are under the mistaken impression that torture is used to produce intel..

You are in error in that regard...

When torture is utilized, the subject is asked for intel that the interrogator already knows...

So your idea that the subject will say anything to stop the torture is not factual..

Michale

I believe the Bush administration should somehow be sanctioned, at the very least, for condoning and justifying the use of torture by US officials or by persons acting on behalf of US officials, whether they be US citizens or not.

The precedent on this subject matter cannot be denied, nor can there be any justification that would validate the use of torture. Our country has a responsibility to charge these people as war criminals! America must show the world that we will not turn a blind eye to crimes against humanity simply because they are being committed by our countrymen.

I don't care a whit about what happens to them. And, you are still not understanding what my opinion on this matter is. See comment number 164 again ...

My bad. A miss read...

You first, you brought up the subject...

Conversely, you are selling the TOTALLY BS crap that, if there wasn't an Abu Ghraib, then there wouldn't have been any Al Qaeda recruiting..

I did not say that. Try going back and re-reading the post. It's not that hard...

You mean every REAL politically correct professional...

As I have mentioned in previous threads, I was talking about the top interrogators for Nazi Germany, WWII Britain, most of the military and clandestine services of the US leading up to 911. Are those all "politically correct professional"?

If the lives of hundreds or thousands of innocent people were hanging in the balance, I would hope that I would have the morale courage to do the right thing...

Oh the hysteria! First it was hundreds, then thousands now hundred of thousands. Come on, go for millions! Billions! Trillions!

Uh, no. He uses the appeal the authority way too much while lacking knowledge of basic military history. He has also admitted he was basically a grunt. He has hinted at his "experience with enhanced interrogation". It was low level field stuff and not what we are taking about with the CIA. I was not impressed, and will not take him at his word. Sorry.

If the lives of hundreds or thousands of innocent people were hanging in the balance, I would hope that I would have the morale courage to do the right thing...

But, as I stated to CW 10 years ago, when it's family, everything goes out the window...

Michale

You mean every REAL politically correct professional...

The people who have been there and done that know that you are wrong...

Michale

Sure.. Give me their names and addresses and I'll send them a sympathy card..

The mythical "wrongfully accused"... I think they made a movie about them starring Leslie Neilsen.. :D

How many American solders were killed because of increased recruiting by Al-Qaeda and lack of local cooperation due to torture and situations like Abu Ghraib?

As soon as you can give me the FACTS regarding your mythical "increased recruiting" then you might have a point..

Conversely, you are selling the TOTALLY BS crap that, if there wasn't an Abu Ghraib, then there wouldn't have been any Al Qaeda recruiting..

Yea... Prove it...

Michale

I can hardly wait to see Jihadi Trump's Snuff Video Marathon on TLC.

if michale says he has personal experience with "enhanced interrogation" of suspects, i think we need to take him at his word.

perhaps a better scenario would be, imagine a terrorist falls in love with your own innocent daughter. he's the toughest guy alive and feels no pain, but you know you can get him to talk and save thousands of lives by torturing your own daughter in front of him. how far are you willing to go?

JL

But it doesn't take into account the hundreds, if not THOUSANDS of innocent lives that have been saved...

You mean the mystical ones you can't seem to ever back up?

Why are you defending the rights and well-being of scumbags who would just as soon slit your throat as look at you??

What about the one's who were wrongfully detained because of language mix ups in Arabic names, accused because of local vendetta, or other mistakes then tortured? Were they scumbags too?

On the other hand it's interesting that lives matter when supporting your political bias but don't seem to when they don't. How many American solders were killed because of increased recruiting by Al-Qaeda and lack of local cooperation due to torture and situations like Abu Ghraib?

Is the life of your daughter worth the lives of a few of your neighbors sons?

Take a life that ten others may live
That's just the way it goes
It's playing over and over in my head
Where it begins and where it'll end
Nobody knows

Bang bang it hammers in my head
Bang bang it hammers in my head
Bang bang it hammers in my head
In my head
In my head

Yea though I walk through the valley of the
shadow of death, I will fear no evil for Thou art with me
Locked and loaded
Gonna find my truth
Now I'm busting through
All hell breaks loose
And you can all hide behind your desks now
And you can cry, 'teacher come help me!'
Through you all my aim is true

Offspring

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdbrxHLhOn8

But it's the scumbags that are being tortured for actionable intel...

If you don't are about the scumbags, why do you care what happens to them??

Put another way...

If a person could save hundreds of innocent lives by simply stepping on a cockroach....

Would you have a problem with that??

Michale

I don't care about the scumbags. You have completely misunderstood my opinion.

He doesn't have an "infatuation" with torture.. He simply acknowledges the reality that even Obama officials have conceded...

Torture SAVES innocent lives...

Why are you defending the rights and well-being of scumbags who would just as soon slit your throat as look at you??

It might sound good in a TOS Star Trek episode, but it is dangerous in the world of the here and now...

Michale

But it doesn't take into account the hundreds, if not THOUSANDS of innocent lives that have been saved...

In that case, the end clearly justifies the means...

Michale

I might add, that I believe there is a much, much thinner line but clear, nevertheless, between the foundations of Islamic states, such as Saudi Arabia, and those of the Islamist terrorists.

That was a little joke, of course.

End of conversation. :)

I can neither confirm or deny any specifics of my military and/or civilian activities regarding this particular subject..

I can, in general terms, state unequivocally that I have experience, training and expertise in the subject matter...

I can also state unequivocally based on personal experience AND public media reports that torture DOES produce actionable intelligence and HAS been instrumental in stopping terrorist attacks and saving innocent lives..

That's as far as I can go....

Michale

In your former employ, have you ever been involved in what is now called an "enhanced interrogation"? In other words, have you ever hands-on tortured anyone in your official capacity?

In my former profession often times it was a position of choosing the wrong that is more right...

"It's easy to tell the difference between right and wrong. What's hard is choosing the wrong that's more right."
-Annette Benning, THE SIEGE

Right and wrong is a gray area...

Sure, it's wrong to cause another human being immeasurable pain and suffering...

But if you FAIL to do so, you cause the death of thousands of innocent people???

How can THAT be morally defensible??

Put another way... If the price of saving hundreds/thousands/a single innocent lives/life is that I have to have some sleepless nights???

That's a small price to pay....

Wouldn't you agree??

Of course, the reality is I sleep like a baby each and every night... My conscience is completely clear...

Michale

is there a point at which the utility of torturing innocents outweighs the categorical imperative of not doing it because it's wrong?

JL

http://tinyurl.com/z975krn

Seems that a devote Trekker (at least of the TNG series.. No accounting for taste.. :D ) hacked his way into Google Maps and other official designation devices and changed the name of a Portland Bridge to JEAN LUC PICARD WUNDER CROSSING...

Kudos to the un-named Trekker...

But, of course, as Left Wingers are wont to do, some Left Winger just HAD to bring RACISM into the issue...

quinn thereaux
?@quinnthereaux
I grew up loving Picard and TNG, but to replace the bridge's name with a fictitious white sci-fi character is racist and gross.
6:53 PM - 7 Mar 2016

Get that???

Changing a bridge's name to honor a Starship Captain is "racist"... Apparently this Quinn guy doesn't have a CLUE what Star Trek is all about...

Welcome to this wonderful world of Political Correctness Run Amok where EVERYTHING is racism.. Even when it's not.. ESPECIALLY when it's not...

President Trump can't get on the job fast enough!! It's going to be nice to see an end to all this fealty by our government on the altar of Political Correctness..

Michale

So Is Torturing A Daughter OK?
http://www.chrisweigant.com/2008/07/07/so-is-torturing-a-daughter-ok-2/

The question that should be asked is NOT if torturing a daughter is OK...

The question that must be asked is "is torturing to SAVE *YOUR* daughter is OK"..

As a father of a daughter, there can only be one response..

Not only YEA... But HELL YEA!!!!

Michale

Now look who is being silly.. :D

I never claimed that torturing everybody is the way to go..

But letting thousands, tens of thousands or even ONE single innocent person be killed because we were squeamish about getting actionable intel from a scumbag terrorist??

Well, THAT is asinine... :D

Michale

The 25-Year Tide That Gave Us Trump
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2016/03/07/the_25-year_tide_that_gave_us_trump_129902.html

It's all about the WHY...

Once you understand the WHY, you see how it is IMPOSSIBLE for Hillary Clinton to win..

Even if she escapes the FBI recommendation unscathed, which is ALSO nearly impossible (ya'all's silence on that is extremely indicative.. :D ), there is simply no way that an Establishment Status Quo candidate will win this election...

Once the WHY is understood and acknowledged, the future is clear...

Michale

No matter how many innocent people die as a result..

Well, I can't fault you for your tenacity.. :D

Michale

You seem to say that about every comment you can't refute.. :D

Michale

Just another non-serious comment ... among countless others.

That is one of the most asinine comments I've ever had the displeasure of reading here, sorry to say.

But, to answer your previous question, another terror attack in Canada will not, IN THE LEAST, change my mind about resettling Syrian refugees throughout my beloved country.

Why is it that 98% of the refugees from the Middle East that are accepted in the west and less than 1% are christian???

I don't know what the source is for your stats but, I can surmise that it's not reliable and they certainly don't apply to refugees coming to Canada. We don't track them by religion.

Under the Harper government, however, critics accused them of discriminating AGAINST muslim refugees, a claim which was, of course, denied.

You have become so cynical that you can't discriminate between what is reality and what is fantasy.

Especially since it's well documented that some of those "poor" muslim refugees are actually terrorists bent on brutally slaughtering innocent men, women and children...

When, gods forbid, Canada has a San Bernardino or a Paris, we can re-visit the issue and see if your mind has been changed...

I doubt it will, though.. Look how many innocent people are brutally murdered and raped by illegal immigrants.. Yet ya'all still support completely open borders..

It's all about minting fresh new Democrat voters... That's all...

Michale

Kinda got ahead of myself.. :D

Why is it that 98% of the refugees from the Middle East that are accepted in the west are muslim and less than 1% are christian???

Michale

No... A realist...

Why is it that 98% of the refugees from the Middle East that are accepted in the west and less than 1% are christian???

You can't make the claim that there AREN'T any christian refugees... They are tens of thousands who are DYING because they can't get out...

But THEY aren't welcomed by the west..

Why???

Because they are not politically acceptable...

It's not about doing what's morally right..

It's about pushing a partisan agenda....

That's why I can't get worked up over the "poor" muslim refugees...

Michale

Only when there is compelling evidence to support the thinking....

Which would you prefer?? A life cut short because of the bleeding hearts of those who don't have to pay the price??

And, what we won't do is deny the opportunity for a better life to as many refugees from Syria and the Middle East as we can manage - we are only at 25,000+ at the moment, so we have a lot more to accommodate.

And IGNORE the thousands and thousands of CHRISTIANS who are being slaughtered in their homelands and who want to come to the US...

Ironic that our government only takes those who will reliably vote Democrat..

So, spare me the "humanitarian" spiel...

It's all about pushing the Leftist agenda...

Michale

When we have another terrorist incident, and we probably will at some point, we will deal with it in a responsible and effective manner rather than blow it out of all proportion and institute silly and ultimately counterproductive policies.

And, what we won't do is deny the opportunity for a better life to as many refugees from Syria and the Middle East as we can manage - we are only at 25,000+ at the moment, so we have a lot more to accommodate.

Neither of which were perpetrated by Syrian Refugees...

How would you feel about it if Canada gets their own San Bernardino or their own Paris??

It's easy to be supportive when their are no consequences..

What happens to that support when innocent people are brutally slaughtered??

Michale