:D

Michale

Then we are in agreement..

The science is not settled....

That's all I need to hear. :D

Michale

But the facts state otherwise.. :D

Might want to check your facts before throwing out accusations. I'm pretty sure I have said in a few of these climate change discussions that it was possible but highly unlikely that climate change is caused purely by non-human influenced factors...

You will always lose.. :D

Michale

You.

yea... That's yer claim..

But the facts state otherwise.. :D

Michale

You.

Apparently, you are wrong..

AGAIN... :D

Michale

But you... NONE of you, can admit that ya'all MIGHT be wrong..

So who is the narrow-minded ones who ignore basic science?? :D

Michale

Still can't answer the question?

No one is going to touch this because the frequency of bring it up and the way you phrase it makes it pretty obvious you are trying to "stick it" to and get a rise out of us. Textbook example of blatant trolling. Find better bait, because this one is not working...

It's YOU who ignores the basic science..

YOU only subscribe to the science that fits your agenda..

I have already conceded ad nasuem that there is legitimate science that supports the Human Caused Global Warming theory..

You have yet to concede that there is legitimate science that disputes the theory..

So WHO ignores basic science??

Michale

This is why it's impossible to have an intelligent debate with you on this issue..

As long as you ignore basic science that is quite true. You get all hysterical about what wrong means but still can't answer the question. How far off does a model have to be before it is "wrong"? How far off does it have to be before it "EPICLY FAILED..."? A fraction of a degree? A degree? Five degrees? Within the margin of error of the study? Which of course you read, right? "Wrong" is not necessarily bad in science. Models are made, studies are read and those involved figure out why some models were quite accurate and some far off the mark. Then they build a new set of models that are more accurate. Rinse and repeat. I think you will find, if you bothered to look at the real science rather than skeptic sites and the most hysterical science reporting available, the models have been slowing getting better and better with each generation. As I said above almost all the models show warming and can only be forced to mimic measured temperatures by adding extra CO2. That's important. That it follows the measured temperature many years after to absolute perfection, not so much. Or do you really demand that climate scientists predict El Ninos and economic recessions a decade in advance?

As far as not trusting NASA/NOAA. What's more likely, all the countries with satellites and super computers plus all the science organizations that get access to use them are in a massive conspiracy or that you are taking a contrary position purely for sake of argument? Stick that in your Occam's razor and smoke it...

When it comes to saving lives, apparently Michale is more Pro-Gay than the rest of Weigantia.. :D

I'm afraid your assessment of the issues with Iran and how to deal with them is way off base, Michale.

Actually, considering that I am the only one here who DOESN'T think Iran can be a good partner, that makes ME the only one who DOES have the proper assessment..

It's funny..

Ya'll are more apt to make a deal with Iran than with Republicans....

How did ya'all get so far out of whack with reality??? :D

Michale

Sniff* he's grown so much. Iran also executes beer drinkers but Michale chooses to fight for gays instead. He's becoming a serious lefty. So proud. :-D

Finally!!!

Tacit agreement that the rights and welfare of gay people is taking a back seat to Obama's deal....

Thank you...

There are other ways to deal with Iran's nefarious non-nuclear behavior at home or in the region or in the world. Making these issues separate is NOT a form of hypocrisy.

I disagree...

Before the advent of the era of the JCPOA, these were VERY VERY important issues..

Right up to the point that they stood in the way of Obama's legacy..

Then those vitally important issues were in the way... Inconvenient...

The raising of the flag was quite a moving ceremony - the three US Marines who removed the flag in 1961 and made a promise back then to return to raise it again were back there on this day to hand over the flag to active duty marines who did the honour today ...

That is pretty moving, I must admit..

Seriously, I hope everything at the shop is back to normal, so to speak, very soon!

Me too.. Thanx... :D

Michale

Heh.

Seriously, I hope everything at the shop is back to normal, so to speak, very soon!

The raising of the flag was quite a moving ceremony - the three US Marines who removed the flag in 1961 and made a promise back then to return to raise it again were back there on this day to hand over the flag to active duty marines who did the honour today ...

OK ... human rights violations by the Iranian regime are NOT a factor in the nuclear agreement with Iran. Period. Full stop.

There are other ways to deal with Iran's nefarious non-nuclear behavior at home or in the region or in the world. Making these issues separate is NOT a form of hypocrisy.

No.. Just frustrated at the blatant and un-addressed hypocrisy... I mean, if the execution of gay people in Iran doesn't factor into any consideration, at least state so...

That way I can stop harping on the point...

Hey, Michale ... did you just see the raising of the US flag at the US embassy in Havana!?

Naw, we had a direct lightning strike on the Flea Market yesterday...

So far, the casualty count is 5 wifi routers, 12 power packs and 3 surveillance cameras..

And counting.. :(

I barely have time to keep abreast of my favorite past-time..

Ya'all!! :D

Michale

Do #GayLivesMatter ???

Apparently not when they are stacked up against Obama's ego... :^/

Michale

If you don't think the lives of gay people are an issue, just say so..

I mean.. Back when we were discussing gay marriage, the COMFORT and FEELINGS of gay people were center stage and *THE* most important issue on the planet..

Now, we're at a stage where it's Obama's Legacy vs the EXECUTION of gay people, NOW... All of the sudden, the lives gay people are nothing more than a drinking game..

Iddn't it amazing how an issue can be so hysterically important to further an agenda can be reduced to not even a mention if it stands in the way of ANOTHER agenda??

"Fascinating"
-Spock

I let sarcasm and my incredulousness get the best of me..

What does "wrong" mean?

It means "not right"...

Michale

"It just all depends on what the definition of 'is' is."

Jeeze louise.....

Michale

What does "wrong" mean?

Seriously!???

This is why it's impossible to have an intelligent debate with you on this issue..

Because there is no common frame of reference..

You don't even know what "WRONG" means.. :^/

GT,

Take a drink for everytime "executes gay people" is mentioned. .. The results are intoxicating. ..

If you don't think the lives of gay people are an issue, just say so..

To touch on my "fanaticism" for a moment I will point out that the Pentagon believes global warming is a threat not only to global political stability but also to the "needs of the mission".

Because that is what their commander in chief TOLD THEM to say...

The Pentagon is just following orders...

If I have time to play I will participate but it is questionable; as tomorrow I have a MIA, JAX, MIA, next morning MIA, SFO....48 hours at home and back to the land of OPSEC... And no my project is not top secret but I did sign a contract. ..

Do you have your own private un-secured email mailserv?? :D

Michale

Take a drink for everytime "executes gay people" is mentioned. .. The results are intoxicating. ...

To touch on my "fanaticism" for a moment I will point out that the Pentagon believes global warming is a threat not only to global political stability but also to the "needs of the mission". Given that a rather prolific poster has repeatedly said "needs of the mission" are priority above all, I would ask how does he feel about the Pentagon calling for the issue to be addressed. ..

If I have time to play I will participate but it is questionable; as tomorrow I have a MIA, JAX, MIA, next morning MIA, SFO....48 hours at home and back to the land of OPSEC... And no my project is not top secret but I did sign a contract. ..

But hay, I get it..

Look in the mirror, dude. Look in the mirror...

What does "wrong" mean? And please no "is is" meme. That's getting a little tired. Almost all of them show that there will be warming and that warming goes against natural cycles and the best explanation is a non-natural addition of CO2. When I say "best explanation" I mean if they add and compare all known factors individually to force the model, only the ones that added CO2 match the trends of the measured results of the actual climate. If you are looking for a perfect fraction of a degree prediction, that's not what the models are designed to do and if you read any of the studies to which the model was made for they will generally explicitly state such. That is why I ask for you to define what you mean by "accurate" and also why I find "the question speaks for itself.." answer so completely half assed...

Duuuhhhh.....

If actual science is barred from the discussion it quickly become uninteresting..</I.

Michale

I'll be a mensch.

I'll give you that, yes.. There MAY be a model or a prediction or two that has been accurate.. I'll give you that...

Because it's clear that the VAST MAJORITY of predictions have been wrong.. Have failed..

EPICLY FAILED...

"Failed. Failed.. IMPRESSIVELY failed.."
-Doctor, ARMAGEDDON

So, even if you can find an accurate prediction or two out there, the simple fact is that the majority has been WRONG..

I mean, strictly from a numbers POV, it's like:

HUMAN CAUSED GLOBAL WARMING FANATICS: 2

REAL SCIENCE REALITY: 23,265

:D

Is there some reason you keep repeating this lie?

Yet, you haven't backed it up with a SINGLE piece of relevant data that is not political motivated..

NASA and NOAA global temperature measurements are "political motivated"?

I think I'll get off this False equivalence train and return to the original subject. If actual science is barred from the discussion it quickly become uninteresting...

There is a reason for that..

And I can find HUNDREDS of models and predictions that have been flat out WRONG.....

There is a reason for that as well...

Michale

And yet, you can't find a SINGLE accurate computer model..

There is a reason for that..

Because *EVERY* model has been WRONG...

It may be a plateau but it's a plateau with a consistent incline.

So you keep saying..

Yet, you haven't backed it up with a SINGLE piece of relevant data that is not political motivated..

Funny how that is, eh? :D

Michale

In other words you half assed it to remain in willful ignorance.

But you never came up with a single model or prediction that was accurate..

Is that possible? If you can't define what constitutes accurate, then nothing is.

In this case, the fanatics and the scientists were one and the same..

Bullshit. There is a huge difference between a scientific paper and the generally poor science reporting. Which are you referring to?

But you can't come up with a single accurate prediction or model..

I have but we have determined you half assed around it. The other point I brought up is many models underestimated the effects of climate change. What about those?

Actually I have backed EVERYTHING up.. And it's usually when you drop out of the debate...

Wew! the levels of bullshit from that statement is making it a bit stinky around here...

I'll play by your rules..

What would you consider valid "backing up"??

Ocean and atmospheric temperature measurements from organizations that have the tools to do so would be a good start.

If you have to "market" your science, guess what??

It's faith...

And if you have to dance around the science to remain willfully ignorant?

Either past performance is indicative of future events..

The earth is warming, just not as fast as some but not all of the computer models predicted. It may be a plateau but it's a plateau with a consistent incline. A huge difference between that and being just plain wrong...

BiBi is a master politician. It's interesting that you criticize the left for that but not politicians that you agree with...

That surely applies to the Human Caused Global Warming religion as well..

Either past performance is indicative of future events..

Or it is not...

Michale

If you have to "market" your science, guess what??

It ain't science..

It's faith...

:D

Michale

No, you haven't. You asked me to be specific about what constitutes an "accurate" prediction and I told you the question speaks for itself..

But you never came up with a single model or prediction that was accurate..

Remember when the fanatics claimed that hurricanes would become more numerous??

I follow the science not the fanatics, sorry...

Nice dodge...

In this case, the fanatics and the scientists were one and the same..

The "science" said that we were to have many more and more violent hurricanes due to Human Caused Global Warming..

The "science" was wrong..

I could go on and on and on about ALL the wrong predictions that your "science" has made...

But you can't come up with a single accurate prediction or model..

EVERYTHING your "science" has predicted about Human Caused Global Warming has been WRONG...

And you have ad nausium. But never back any of it up interestingly enough...

Actually I have backed EVERYTHING up.. And it's usually when you drop out of the debate...

Willful ignorance? I said no such thing. And I provided examples of computer climate models that were pretty dam close to actual events. Numerous times.

Not once...

223 months without any Global Warming....

Please back this up. Asking for the umteenth time...

I'll play by your rules..

What would you consider valid "backing up"??

:D

Michale

Give me a Global Warming model/prediction that actually happened...

Ya...already have posted it numerous times.

That's your opinion.. Apparently, it's not the opinion shared by the Israelis...

You mean the 25% that voted for him?

Remember when the fanatics claimed that hurricanes would become more numerous??

I follow the science not the fanatics, sorry...

CONUS hasn't seen a major hurricane strike in almost a DECADE!!

Other than last week? Remember climate change is global and typhoons, cyclones and hurricanes are the same thing just in different parts of the world.

I could go on and on and on and on and on and on about the failed and totally WRONG predictions from the Human Caused Global Warming morons..

And you have ad nausium. But never back any of it up interestingly enough...

So, by your OWN words, all the so-called "science" of the Human Caused Global Warming morons are "a bit suspect"...

Willful ignorance? I said no such thing. And I provided examples of computer climate models that were pretty dam close to actual events. Numerous times.

223 months without any Global Warming....

Please back this up. Asking for the umteenth time...

What does Iran care??

The US is funding a massive replenishment of Iranian offensive military hardware....

They can shoot off whatever they want to now....

Michale

Indians say EPA trying to swindle them in mine spill
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/aug/12/indians-say-epa-trying-swindle-them-mine-spill/

Obama's EPA is trying to stick it to American Indians...

Michale

Many Democrats were as much "boosters" as Netanyahu...

A fact that ya'all conveniently forget when the subject comes up..

you know, the war that empowered Iran.

Fair enough..

The JCPOA is as much of a bonehead stoopid and moronic mistake as the Iraq War...

I can agree with that...

Michale

Why was Netanyahu one of the biggest boosters of the 2003 US invasion of Iraq ... you know, the war that empowered Iran.

A deal that empowers and strengthens a regime that wants to wipe Israel off the map, a regime that executes gay people, a regime that is the WORLD's sponsor of terrorism...

On WHAT planet is THAT a "good deal"???

Michale

Maybe.... JUST maybe....

Past performance is NOT indicative of future events...

Eh??? Eh???

Michale

Yea, the Human Caused Global Warming morons have got it going on!!

NOT!!!!!!

Remember when the fanatics claimed that hurricanes would become more numerous??

CONUS hasn't seen a major hurricane strike in almost a DECADE!!

I could go on and on and on and on and on and on about the failed and totally WRONG predictions from the Human Caused Global Warming morons..

You can't even come up with ONE accurate prediction.. One model that was accurate...

So, by your OWN words, all the so-called "science" of the Human Caused Global Warming morons are "a bit suspect"...

Michale

Just once... :D

Give me a Global Warming model/prediction that actually happened...

No. Unexpected maybe, but not in any way decisive. You might want to check a dictionary on that one...

Toe-MAY-toe, Poe-TAA-toe...

It's decisive...

No, he is fighting to stay in power.

That's your opinion.. Apparently, it's not the opinion shared by the Israelis...

Michale

And just how many times do I have to disprove this bullshit?

That's decisive...

No. Unexpected maybe, but not in any way decisive. You might want to check a dictionary on that one...

I am not interested in ANYONE's ego.

THAT'S my point...

Oh, please. Love him or hate him, Netanyahu pulled some serious sleaze during his last election. If he had been from the American left we would have had pages and pages of embolden text from you crying the end of the world. It would have gone on for days, but because you support him, not a peep. I guess you are not as independent and you pretend to be...

Netanyahu is fighting it for the survival of his country...

No, he is fighting to stay in power.

And Obama ain't????

Michale

OK... OK.....

So, since the Global Warming Fanatics have been predicting gloom and doom for more than a decade and NONE of it has come to pass then, by your own admission, the validity of the fanatics and scientists and administration is "a bit suspect"

Is that the argument you want to make?? :D

No, he is a politician. And his "decisive" victory was the smallest coalition possible under the Israeli system...

His victory was decisive because EVERYONE thought he would lose and lose big..

That's decisive...

Ah, so you are more interested in Bibi's ego than an American's ego. Got it.

I am not interested in ANYONE's ego.

THAT'S my point...

Obama is pushing this, SOLELY for his legacy...

Netanyahu is fighting it for the survival of his country...

That's the long and short of it..

Michale

Ah, so you are more interested in Bibi's ego than an American's ego. Got it.

No, he is a politician. And his "decisive" victory was the smallest coalition possible under the Israeli system...

Because he has used the Iranian boogey man to get him in to power for the last three decades. Considering he has predicted Iran will get a nuke in anywhere from a few years to a single year many times over the last thirty years, his validity on the subject is a bit suspect...

As does this.....

Michale

That, pretty much, says it all...

Michale

That's your opinion and I respect that..

But it's ONLY one of many MANY opinions..

Ask yourself one question...

Why is Netanyahu so opposed to the JCPOA...

If the JCPOA actually enhances the security of Israel as you claim, then Netanyahu would be a FOOL to oppose it.. Or he hates Israel and wants to see it destroyed..

You can say many things about BiBi, but you CAN'T claim he is a fool and his devotion and patriotism for Israel is beyond reproach.. As evidenced by his clear and decisive victory in the last Israeli election...

Given that, the ONLY possible conclusion is that Netanyahu honestly and truly believes that the JCPOA is a threat to Israel..

And, given Israel proximity to Iran and the nature of the threat that a nuclear armed Iran poses to Israel, I will trust Bibi's assessment over the assessment of a bunch of administration clowns looking out for Obama's ego...

Michale

It's entirely possible that the JCPOA will be the greatest thing since frozen pizza. It may garner in a golden age of wealth and prosperity and will lead DIRECTLY to the forming of the United Federation Of Planets..

I can readily and easily admit that ya'all may be right and I may be wrong....

Can ya'all admit the same?? Can ya'all admit that I may be right about the JCPOA, that all the congress critters voting against the JCPOA may be right and that YA'ALL may be wrong?

I doubt it.. :D

Michale

Yes, there is..

But the problem that ya'all have, the problem that Obama shares, is that ya'all are assuming ignorance or nefarious motives for the ones who disagree with ya'all...

A person CAN come to a logical and rational conclusion that differs from ya'all's and NOT be an evil war-monger...

Ya'all are wrong about the JCPOA.. I know ya'all are wrong..

But I would not ascribe evil intent to the way ya'all came to your conclusion..

Ya'all are loyal to the President.. There is nothing evil in that...

Matter of fact, it's honorable in a way...

It's just misplaced... Not evil..

Michale

This is where you go off the rails, Michale.

Critical thinking skills allow us to distinguish between the relative validity of various expert opinions.

There is a right side and wrong side to this issue, as there is with most issues. Unfortunately, you are so far into the wrong side that you can't even admit that there is another side, much less that it is the right side.

As with any POLITICAL question (which is all the JCPOA is) there are "experts" on both sides of the issue.. Each expert's opinion is as valid as any other expert's opinion..

For me, the overriding factor is the security of the State Of Israel..

Ya'all MAY be right..

It's entirely possible that the JCPOA will be the greatest thing since frozen pizza. It may garner in a golden age of wealth and prosperity and will lead DIRECTLY to the forming of the United Federation Of Planets..

I am just not willing to bet the very survival of Israel on that... Apparently, ya'all are...

I am also constrained to point out that none of ya'all are willing to concede that the JCPOA could possibly be the worst thing that happens to this country since Jimmy Carter...

Michale

"Absolutely, positively, unequivocally ... and, I mean that sincerely, I'm not trying to be facetious, here."

“We’re witnessing a new great game, and Obama is so self-centered he keeps playing solitaire. Obama simply doesn’t understand that the world is full of dictators who seek to checkmate America. What he sees as compromise; they see as weakness to exploit.”
-Michael Rubin, Expert On Rogue Regimes

My experts can beat up your experts.. :D

Let's face the facts..

In this discussion, "expert" is a code-word for "saying what we want to hear"

Am I wrong?? :D

Michale

https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/2270925/read-an-open-letter-from-retired-generals-and.pdf

Wouldn't be the first time the military was wrong.. :D Did you notice that those military people you quote made no mention of sanctions... That they stated that war was the only way to stop Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons..

I agree with their assessment...

According to ya'all sanctions don't/won't work...

Ergo, the ONLY way to stop Iran from obtaining a nuclear arsenal is by overt/covert war...

Since it is universally agreed that this is the case, what sense does it make to give Iran hundreds of billions of dollars to beef up it's conventional arms and terrorist armies??

Those military members who wrote that are basically stating that it's perfectly acceptable to give hundreds of billions of dollars to an enemy that we will go to war against within the next decade..

No military person with more than two brain cells to rub together would make such a claim..

This is serving a political agenda.. It only has Obama's legacy in mind.

Not the safety and security of this country..

Michale

That's what Fridays are for!! :D

Michale

This one's for you ...

https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/2270925/read-an-open-letter-from-retired-generals-and.pdf

Strictly speaking, you exodus out of a place, like Egypt and illegally immigrate into a place, like Sinai. Once over the border, you wander. You cross paths with a shepherd You ask directions. "Where the heck are we?" The word spreads of a new nation: the Hekahwee. That joke is 3000 yrs. old.

Just trying to cheer up the NSA intern (Daryl) that has to screen these 200 + comments, mostly off topic.

http://sjfm.us/temp/iran.jpg

Because it's a booming market.... :^/

Michale

The mass exodus into Iran to do business with the regime reminds some people of the great business rush when businesses rushed in to do business with the Third Reich...

But, it's OK.. We can trust Iran...

It's not as if Iran is the world's sponsor of terrorism and execute people for being gay...

Oh... wait....

Michale

So, what's to stop Iran from cheating on the JCPOA??

Not a damn thing..

Michale

And the people are just as locked down and lacking in freedom as they were under the USSR.. And now Putin is eyeing eastern europe...

Hasn't happened YET. Doesn't mean it is not going to eventually. Iran has not really been penetrated yet by the full force of Western culture and technology.

And how many people have to die before your "yet" actually happens, if it happens at all??

Do you HONESTLY think that the Ayatollahs will be thrown out of power??

I am not talking exclusively about money. I am talking about access to the Western internet, and especially music, movies, and consumer goods flooding store shelves.

And, if that doesn't happen??

We just gave Iran hundreds of billions and an approved nuclear weapons program in 10-15 years..

Seriously.. How can ANYONE think this is a good deal??

Iran is free to continue terrorism, continue to execute people, continue to hold Americans hostage..

And no one says "BOO" because no one wants to upset Obama's legacy...

Nice....

"And look at Russia now.... Kinda kills yer theory.. :D"

Not at all. Just the opposite. Russia is run by oligarchies now - a small group of monopolistic capitalist businessmen. Moscow department stores are full of Western goods.

"Many said that about Iran's Green revolution...

Didn't happen.."

Hasn't happened YET. Doesn't mean it is not going to eventually. Iran has not really been penetrated yet by the full force of Western culture and technology.

"Keep in mind, the hundreds of billions we are giving Iran ain't going to the people..."

I am not talking exclusively about money. I am talking about access to the Western internet, and especially music, movies, and consumer goods flooding store shelves.

And look at Russia now.... Kinda kills yer theory.. :D

Look at China. They have bought American consumerism lock, stock and barrel. Going from; bicycles to cars, Mao jackets to Christian Dior, and even copying the American interstate highway system. Tiananmen Square was just too early. Another earthquake is coming and it will be permanent.

Many said that about Iran's Green revolution...

Didn't happen..

Keep in mind, the hundreds of billions we are giving Iran ain't going to the people...

They are going for nuclear weapons... terrorism... ballistic missiles... Weapons of war..

"Courtesy of the Red, White and Blue.."
-Toby Keith

"The Soviet Union was doomed because they could not keep their economy going after US military pressure.."

Military pressure certainly played a role. But revolutions took place in those nations because people wanted full supermarkets, Western style consumerism, and entertainment other than "Boy riding a tractor rescues girl on collective farm" movie. Wanting to dance to Michael Jackson's "Thriller" without fear of being arrested made a much bigger impact than whether America had 500 missiles or 600 missiles once they were exposed to that.

Do you really think the Cuban government is going to survive under the tidal wave onslaught of American tourists, cruise ships, businessmen and rich American relatives that will descend on the island if the embargo is ever fully lifted???

"Iranian youth tried that in 2009.. Obama hung them out to dry.."

That was an attempt at a political revolution, without majority support, not the social revolution I am talking about which needs to come first.

Look at China. They have bought American consumerism lock, stock and barrel. Going from; bicycles to cars, Mao jackets to Christian Dior, and even copying the American interstate highway system. Tiananmen Square was just too early. Another earthquake is coming and it will be permanent.

Haven't seen 200 around these parts in quite a while... :D

Michale

Iranian youth tried that in 2009.. Obama hung them out to dry..

You think they are going to fall for the same trick again!??

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me",?B>
-Scotty, STARTREK, Friday's Child

Michale

"I am just commenting on the blatant hypocrisy of how ya'all say on the one hand that you support the gay community yet on the other hand you want Iran as a partner..."

Not at all. The best way to change Iranian policy on gays is to have more open, unfettered contact with America, not less. Nothing will subvert Iranian theocracy faster than to have American culture infiltrate and be widely available to Iranian youth. :-D

After all, didn't the same thing eventually happen across the Iron Curtain? The Soviet Union was doomed once McDonald's and Pepsi started appearing in Moscow.

"Exxceellllant"
-Mr Burns..

" Hey, Commander. Listen, we found some beryllium on a nearby planet. And we might be able to get there if we reconfigure the solar matrix in parallel for endothermic propulsion. What'd'ya think?"
"Let's do that!"
-Galaxy Quest

:D

Ideally, yes of course. But there are more questions than one can devote that kind of effort to, and neutral experts can be hard to find.

Well, I just entirely disagree with that assertion.

Of course, if a person does not possess critical thinking skills and has not developed good judgement, then yes, it can be difficult to know who to trust.

One must also be well aware of the pros and cons surrounding at least the top critical issues of the day and be equipped with the requisite ability to judge what the best course of action is on these issues.

I guess I am lucky in that regard and I have a list of people - politicians, analysts, experts - who I go to on a very regular basis, on any number of issues, to get their take and develop my own.

Generally speaking, I start with my own views, narrowly informed as some of them may be. And, then I do a lot of reading and listening - to the people I mentioned above and I will also seek out the views of those with opposing positions to see if any of that makes sense.

None of this is easy, but it is hardly true to say that it is only an ideal situation when this kind of analysis can happen.

Ideally, yes of course. But there are more questions than one can devote that kind of effort to, and neutral experts can be hard to find. Everyone pushing an agenda has an incentive to pass their experts off as neutral, whether they really are or not. Practically, I think it often makes more sense to start with the positions of one's own political side, and examine them critically.

"We arm the hill people with the exact same kinds of weapons."</B.
-Captain James T. Kirk, STAR TREK, A PRIVATE LITTLE WAR

At least, I wasn't pre-JCPOA...

Now that the US is allowing our enemy to develop nuclear weapons, it's only fair that we allow our allies to develop nuclear weapons as well...

Fair is fair...

Michale

For the record, I am not advocating cutting off relations with Iran.... I just don't think we should facilitate their nuclear program with a large UBER LARGE infusion of hundreds of billions of dollars..

If your messiah wants to do business with Iran and ya'all want to support him in that, so be it.

I am just commenting on the blatant hypocrisy of how ya'all say on the one hand that you support the gay community yet on the other hand you want Iran as a partner...

It makes absolutely NO SENSE, unless one takes into account Party Loyalty..

At that point, it makes perfect sense..

Michale

In other words, Left Wingers who are saying, "The Ends (Obama's Legacy) Justifies The Means (Supporting A Nation That Executes Gay People)"

Michale

Maybe... Maybe not..

But I am SURE not going to jump into bed with them on a deal that will give them nuclear weapons..

But we're not talking about me..

We're talking about Left Wingers who CLAIM to support the gay community, yet actively support a deal with a country that executes gay people.

I am asking ya'all to explain the hypocrisy..

Not cast around a net for others...

We can get to Saudi and Nigeria when we're finished with Iran...

Saudi Arabia is the NUMBER ONE sponsor of terrorism through its extensive network of fundamentalist Islamic schools.

That's a very tenuous connection..

Iran's support is a lot more immediate and a lot more contemporary...

Even Obama himself stated that the money Iran gets from the JCPOA will likely go to groups that kill Americans and other innocent people..

Michale

"Yet ya'all can jump into bed with a country who executes gay people??"

So are you now going to start advocating that we cut off all relations with both Saudi Arabia and Pakistan on that basis also? Not to mention any number of African nations like Nigeria and Sudan also?

"Iran is the NUMBER ONE sponsor of terrorism.."

Last time I looked, ISIS in Iraq and Syria, the Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan, plus the various Al Qaeda and ISIS inspired affiliates in Libya, Sudan, Somalia, Nigeria, Yemen, etc. were all Sunni groups inspired by Wahhabism.

Saudi Arabia is the NUMBER ONE sponsor of terrorism through its extensive network of fundamentalist Islamic schools.

Ya'all claim that continuing sanctions would NOT have worked..

Yet, you also claim that, if Iran cheats, those same (according to ya'all) "useless" sanctions will "snap back".

So, which is it??

Either sanctions will work or they won't...

There also is no post-JCPOA plan to keep Iran from becoming a nuclear power.. Just vague "Oh, we'll think of something"...

Yea.. Like THAT is something strong enough to hang the security of an entire region of allies on.. :^/

The JCPOA is a bad deal..

It won't prevent Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons..

It WILL guarantee nuclear proliferation in the most volatile region on the planet.

"These are the facts. And they are undisputed."
-Captain 'Smilin' Jack Ross, A FEW GOOD MEN

Michale

Yea, we can deal with Iran..

They are the good guys..

It's ISRAEL who are the bad guys...

Michale

A.I. Thee Wed
Humans should be able to marry robots.
http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2015/08/humans_should_be_able_to_marry_robots.single.html

I think a few someones owe someone else an apology around here.. :D

Michale

Very VERY few people CAN put "politics aside"..

That is exactly my point..

Michale

That's because I have been there and done that and live in the REAL world.. Not the hopey-changey world where everyone is EXCELLENT to each other.

Iran is the NUMBER ONE sponsor of terrorism..

Iran EXECUTES gay people SOLELY for their lifestyle..

How ANYONE who thinks clearly and has more than two brain cells to rub together can think that this will actually be a good thing is beyond me...

Ya'all can't support a deal with Republicans whatsoever and vilify them to hell and back..

Yet ya'all can jump into bed with a country who executes gay people??

The logic is clear...

Party loyalty... Party Uber Alles...

Michale

Iran Contra....

To be even clearer, if President George W. Bush had continued on the track his administration was at least nominally on, and he ended up with the JCPOA we now have or something very similar, then I, for one, would heartily support it as I support the deal we have now.

Am I making any sense?

Not really..

I saw how the Left reacted on Abu Ghraib...

To say that ANYONE here would have supported Bush on ANYTHING stretches credulity to the breaking point and far beyond...

I should admit that if a proposal is backed heavily by one major party and received tepidly by the other, I will be inclined to suspect that it furthers an agenda in line with the favoring party's views.

ding ding ding ding....

We have a winner!!!

And throw in a messianic demo-god like Obama into the mix and all logic goes out the window..

:D

Michale

I should admit that if a proposal is backed heavily by one major party and received tepidly by the other, I will be inclined to suspect that it furthers an agenda in line with the favoring party's views.

Don't you think it's better to just use your own good judgement and that of people with relevant expertise, weigh the pros and cons of an issue (or nuclear agreement) and come to well-informed conclusions, understanding that it is possible that the agenda being pushed sometimes may represent the best course of action, all politics aside.

Duly noted. :)

Thank-you and sorry for so quickly jumping to misguided conclusions.

I should admit that if a proposal is backed heavily by one major party and received tepidly by the other, I will be inclined to suspect that it furthers an agenda in line with the favoring party's views.

People do that. They pick a position based on political affiliation, find a bunch of people who agree, sort out some who have something that sounds like a qualification, and publicize it. I expect you to get it right. (You'll note that there are some people I don't bother to pick nits with, because I don't expect them to be in the right ballpark to begin with.) But I've seen the trope enough for it to annoy me.