Ya gotta hand it to the Greeks...

The vote NO against a deal that they felt was too harsh..

And now they are being forced to accept a HARSHER deal BECAUSE they voted NO on the previous deal..

Liberal logic at work.. :^)

Michale

As per my usual MO, I will give credit where credit is due.. :D

Michale

Michale

Oh, wait ...

:-)

"If an important decision is to be made, they (the Persians) discuss the question when they are drunk and the following day the master of the house where the discussion was held submits the decision for reconsideration when they are sober. If they still approve it, it is adopted; if not, it is abandoned. Conversely, any decision they make when they are sober is reconsidered afterwards when they are drunk."

This, according to the Greek historian Herodotus, is how the ancient Persians made their decisions.

I think we should try that here! :)

Kerry is saying that there is a bit more work to be done with respect to the drafting of the agreement. It's about 100 pages long, you know.

But, just remember that, when the deal is announced tomorrow, you read about its imminent announcement here first! :)

Not at all.. I look at ALL the reports...

But I also look at the background. I look PAST the reports and assess motivations...

Kerry is saying there is no deal, that there are still obstacles to a deal..

Iran is saying there IS a deal..

Now WHY would Kerry say what he said if it weren't true???

We KNOW why Iran would lie...

Michale

Well, that's not where I got my information, as I have already indicated.

I've noticed that when it comes to reports, you only look at the ones that support your spurious arguments.

The who?

The German intelligence service that is reporting that Iran has been trying to acquire nuclear and missile technology...

You can bet that our own CIA and DIA has the same and likely even MORE damning intelligence...

But it's being kept under wraps because Obama needs this deal...

I am also constrained to point out that the reports that a deal is imminent are coming from the Iranian negotiators...

Likely to put pressure on the US...

Michale

If the deal is as is being reported than Iran will, indeed, be in control of the inspection regime...

But I will hold my water and keep my powder dry until the deal is official....

Maybe.. :D

Michale

Take a deep breath, Michale.

I said "not absolute" ... not "Iran in control" ...

Remember ... let's wait for the deal ... should be coming shortly ...

More accurately, would that kind of deal curtail the anti-social behavior of the teen??

Or facilitate it??

THAT is the question that needs to be asked vis a vis Iran....

Obama is on record as stating that he WON'T allow Iran to acquire nuclear weapons...

Would the deal as it is outlined prevent that??

Or facilitate that?

Michale

The who?

:-)

It is NOT possible to have an effective verification and inspection regime if Iran is in control of when and where the inspectors can inspect..

It is simply NOT possible..

Put another way.. Let's say you have a teenager that has smoked pot in the past. As the parent, you put your teenager on notice that you will be inspecting every inch of his life at any time. And if he passes the inspection, you will give him a $5000 reward...

The teenager comes back with, "I can't accept that. But I will let you inspect my room ONLY and you have to give me an hours notice before I allow you to come in my room. My car and my school locker are OFF LIMITS to any inspections.. Can I have my $5000 now??"

What parent in their right mind would accept that kind of "deal"??

Michale

The P5+1 negotiators said the deal would be done by 30 Jun..

I wouldn't put much stock in ANYTHING the P5+1 says..

It's documented by a reputable intelligence agency that Iran has cheated..

Put another way, the Bundesnachrichtendienst has absolutely no reason to lie that Iran is cheating..

The P5+1 has every reason to lie that Iran is NOT cheating...

Michale

Critics of any deal with Iran always make this argument and it is wrong to do so.

It is possible to have an effective verification and inspection regime and, indeed it is critical to any deal with Iran on its nuclear program.

It doesn't have to be quite as absolute as you think!

Have they cheated in the past? Yes. Will they cheat in the future? Indubitably. Should Iran's history of cheating and possibility for future cheating be a deal breaker? Of course, not!

Just to be clear, Iran is living up to the terms of the interim framework.

Not according to the German Intelligence services...

Michale

http://www.verfassungsschutz.de/de/aktuelles/meldungen/me-20150630-vorstellung-vsb-2014

But let me make clear..

ANY deal that does not force Iran to submit to No-Notice-Any-Time-Any-Where inspections is a bad deal...

Michale

No, I just heard an interview Fareed Zakaria did with Joe Cirincione and Karim Sadjadpour on CNN's GPS program.

Cirincione and Sadjadpour are my go to guys on this issue - they know what's what.

Iran has been living up to the interim agreement and if they cheat after signing the final agreement they will be caught and punished!

But that's just it. Iran is already cheating.. They have been buying nuclear technology from Germany in violation of the interim agreement..

I have it on excellent authority that Iran and the P5+1 have come to a workable compromise on this issue and all of the other sticking point!

Link??

Michale

Iran will never allow that and THAT is the only way that a deal with Iran would be a "good" deal...

I have it on excellent authority that Iran and the P5+1 have come to a workable compromise on this issue and all of the other sticking point!

As we write, the negotiators in Vienna are dotting all the i's and crossing all the t's so to speak and than the announcement of an agreement is imminent.

I'm really looking forward to a great debate here on the merits of this agreement ...

I fully agree with Kerry when he says that the P5+1 won't rush to get a deal and they won't be rushed.

Look, you always say that Obama is too quick to get a deal because he desperately needs a deal ... for his legacy or whatever. I think Iran is far more desperate for a deal for pure economic reasons.

The problem for Iran is that it also needs to vilify America for political reasons.

Something has to give and I don't really care how much longer it takes so long as Iran continues to live by the interim agreement. I think Iran will, in the not too distant future make the hard decision that it is better to swallow the bitter political pill of signing an agreement that meets the P5+1 objectives than to risk the wrath of its negotiating partners and suffer great economic hardship under the sanctions regime.

What's important here is that Iran remains isolated if it fails to sign on to the interim framework in the form of a final agreement. I think that is basically why Kerry is willing to extend the time for negotiations - to make it crystal clear to all involved in the negotiations and to all observers that Iran will have to take full responsibility for the failure to reach an agreement and will have to suffer the consequences as a result.

Why does Kerry bother with setting ANY kind of deadline???

It's obvious that there IS no deadline and the P5+1 just look like idiots when they blow thru another "deadline"....

Michale

I honestly don't believe a good deal is possible for one simple reason..

Iran's going to cheat. That's a given. They have already been caught cheating within the last month or two...

So, the ONLY way a "good" deal would be possible is if Iran allowed the kinds of inspections that would CATCH Iran when they cheat...

That means unannounced inspections of ANY facility under Iranian control..

*ANY FACILITY*

Iran will never allow that and THAT is the only way that a deal with Iran would be a "good" deal...

Michale

Since we are evidently on a roll, would you also agree with me that a deal with Iran on its nuclear program that satisfies US objectives and those of its allies is possible?

I ask because so many critics of the deal apparently believe that no deal is possible and that there should not even be negotiations between Iran and P5+1.

Agreed...

This is becoming a habit.. :D

Michale

And, then, we can figure out if what was agreed to, if there is a deal, is worthy of our support.

Troo.. We can't talk about a deal that doesn't exist yet..

But we CAN talk about the process... Which I find fascinating..

It's funny.. I was reading about how th Greeks are negotiating and it struck me how much Greece and Iran have in common...

They both know they're dirty, they both know they're on the wrong side of morality and history and they both are just biding time, using negotiating as a stalling tactic..

The similarity is staggering..

Michale

Heheheheheh. That made me laugh out loud!

And, then, we can figure out if what was agreed to, if there is a deal, is worthy of our support.

Wanna talk about Iran?? :D heh

Michale

Fair enough...

But at least we agree that Bernie and Trump are "down-wing" candidates. :D

Michale

given the definition ya gave, compare and contrast Trump's rhetoric with Bernie's rhetoric...

I'd rather leave the down-wing candidates for others to analyze and instead focus on who the up-wing candidates might be or, at the very least, what an up-wing vision for the future might look like in terms of specific policies and strategies.

I agree cuz I had NO IDEA what you were talking about. :D

But, given the definition ya gave, compare and contrast Trump's rhetoric with Bernie's rhetoric...

Michale

I think a description of "up-wing" is in order.

It's a term used by one of my favourite political analysts, William Bradley, and was derived from an idea that former Senator Gary Hart showed him to characterize political figures using a past-future spectrum instead of the usual right-wing/left-wing classification.

To paraphrase Bradley, this past-future spectrum naturally runs from the up end to the down end of the spectrum, with the futurist end characterized by new technology, creative utilizations of existing technology, and new structural forms to pursue enduring values and new visions.

The up-wing leader places a special emphasis on big think/think big future-oriented and enlightened policies in an effort to position a society on the global cutting edge, even in the midst of great challenges and crises that would paralyse a more down-wing political leader.

Additionally, to quote Bradley, "big thinking, big ideas need not be about big items per se. In fact, some of the biggest thinking is about small things, or more accurately, how to bring smaller things into play to solve problems that big things might make worse."

This is a far superior method of characterizing the current crop of presidential candidates than the out-dated and tired left-wing/right wing labels because it identifies the candidate most capable of outlining a coherent vision for the future and of possessing the courage to carry it out.

Global Warming/Climate Change/Climate Disruption or whatever the current marketing term is these days....???

It's a POLITICAL/IDEOLOGICAL issue...

It's as far reviewed from real science as Aunt Fanny's underwear....

Michale

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3156594/Is-mini-ICE-AGE-way-Scientists-warn-sun-sleep-2020-cause-temperatures-plummet.html

NOW they are saying we're heading for a mini-ice-age...

Heh

Michale

Global Warming has little to no empirical support, relies on highly inaccurate computer models that cannot forecast current, much less future, weather, and is not supported by a broad scientific consensus. To the extent there is warming going on, it is due to the sun. While these facts do not conclusively prove that global warming is not occurring (it’s impossible to prove a negative), they certainly suggest that it is not. God is still up there and His Dominion Mandate has never been withdrawn and is still in effect. It was originally given to Adam & Eve and then confirmed and modified to Noah after the Great Flood. It is, therefore, appropriate to raise the question of how well the Dominion Mandate is being implemented by the nations of the world. A basic component in the mandate was the establishment of traditional marriage as the basis for establishing the population required to accomplish the other components of the mandate. It’s pretty clear that the nations have failed miserably in this regard. They have given lip service to traditional marriage in their legal codes, but polygamy, same sex marriage, and cohabitation without marriage have become very common. So, in spite of all the advances in science and technology that have been made, mankind has still got a long way go to go before we reach our goal of subduing the Earth. Convincing well intentioned Christians to believe and defend demonstrably false ideas is the Devil's greatest triumph.

"FAILED... FAILED... IMPRESSIVELY FAILED.."
-Doctor, ARMAGEDDON

Here's a free *REAL* science clue...

When *EVERY* Model designed to prove a theory has FAILED....

It's time to re-think the theory...

Michale

Why should anyone care about "Climate Change"???

We might as well be concerned about Earth Orbit....

We have as much control over THAT as we have over the planet's climate....

Michale

But he IS being "up-wing"...

Actually, from what I have heard of his stance on the big issues of the day - like climate change, for example - Trump is a very decidedly down-wing candidate.

Oooo that crazy Donald Trump is at it again!!!

"Our borders have overflowed with illegal immigrants placing tremendous burdens on our criminal justice system, schools and social programs. The Immigration and Naturalization Service needs the ability to step up enforcement.

Even worse, Americans have seen heinous crimes committed by individuals who are here illegally."

Oh... Wait.....

That was Harry Reid who said that..

My bust... :^D

So.... Does ANYONE wanna tell me how "wrong" Harry Reid..... er... I mean Donald Trump is???

Michale

NOW yer just being plain nasty... :D

Michale

Thank you for your concession that you have no logical or rational argument and must therefore resort to childish name-calling and immature personal attacks. Your concession of my superiority is appreciated albeit irrelevant... :D

DOH!!! I missed the quote part of your comment...

My bust.

ArgleBargle!! :D

Michale

Thank you for your concession that you have no logical or rational argument and must therefore resort to childish name-calling and immature personal attacks. Your concession of my superiority is appreciated albeit irrelevant... :D

BTW - he did set the bar pretty low on his dare, but he didn't go into much detail about what the dare actually involves. Maybe he's going to shoot anybody who shatters his delusions?

And yet, STILL not one single fact to refute Donald Trump's statements...

:D

Michale

LOL! Somebody really should tell that dimwit about the google.

BTW - he did set the bar pretty low on his dare, but he didn't go into much detail about what the dare actually involves. Maybe he's going to shoot anybody who shatters his delusions?

Does loving something translate to slamming it in bubble world? Wait, never mind. I've often heard christians (R) talk about how they "love" the sinner and they clearly mean the opposite. Oh well, I suppose I can see how it gets confusing for you down in that rabbit hole since I don't talk like that, but I've given Trump nothing but rave "reviews". I've stated my very sincerely held intention to change my registration so that I can vote for him. I even gave him credit for owning his anti-gay bigotry rather than blaming some imaginary sky daddy, but now I have to wonder what The Donald meant when he said "I love the Mexican people". Was he slamming them for being predators and drug dealers? I probably don't understand all of the GOP dog whistles.

Does loving something translate to slamming it in bizarro cancervative world? Wait, never mind. I've often heard christians (R) talk about how they "love" the sinner and they clearly mean the opposite. Oh well, I suppose I can see how it gets confusing for you down in that rabbit hole since I don't talk like that, but I've given Trump nothing but rave "reviews". I've stated my very sincerely held intention to change my registration so that I can vote for him. I even gave him credit for owning his homophobia rather than blaming some imaginary sky daddy, but now I have to wonder what The Donald meant when he said "I love the Mexican people". Was he slamming them for being rapists and dope mules? I probably don't understand all of the GOP dog whistles.

CNN said "Donald Trump" 239 times in a 24 hour period...

"Me thinks thou doth protest TOO much"

I'm just sayin'....

Michale

Well, we have JFC slamming Trump for the color of his skin.. We have had MANY commenters slam Trump for his hair..

HONESTLY...

What does Trump's HAIR have to do with ANYTHING!???

Attack Trump for his FACTS....

{{chiirrrrrppppp}} {{chiiiiiirrrrpppp}}}

Apparently, no one can do that...

Michale

Michale

He wants to protect the Kathleen Steinles and the Jamiel Shaws of this country...

And his message is resonating with ALL Americans, both Right *AND* Left *AND* Independents...

The only people who don't like what he is doing is the Ruling Class....

The professional politicians....

And THAT is just fine by me....

Michale

I'm not sure what point you think you're making.

If Trump was ... say, an up-wing kind of candidate and said the right things and advocated the right policies and expressed a vision for the future that was progressive and positive, then, of course, I and many others - here and elsewhere - would applaud him, even if he was being an arrogant, pompous you-know-what!

But, he is not and there isn't a snowball's chance in you-know-where that he will.

That's my point...

Michale

But if the Left is Right and the Right is Wrong, who's on first? :D

Michale

... you always forget about this very important factor - the Left is usually right and the Right is mostly wrong ... so to speak. Ahem. :)

Think about it... Am I wrong??

Michale

That alone makes Trump (AND Sanders) worth the price of admission..

Trump makes the Ruling Class nervous because Trump doesn't NEED the Ruling Class... Again, no one on the Left OR the Right can make that claim...

That says it all...

Michale

Michale

Based solely on the fact that you don't agree with what they say...

This isn't the first time I have heard of Democrats agreeing with Donald Trump..

Names like Boxer, Clinton and Feinstein come to mind.. :D

" Blowhards don’t wear well." That's the take home from Noonan's article.

Which proves what I said.. You only take away what you WANT to hear..

Whereas I concede BOTH points.

Yes.. Trump is an arrogant blow-hard..

But he is ALSO laying out the facts that politically correct types are afraid to say...

Still waiting for someone to point to me where Donald's facts are in error...

Trump doesn't even have to "pull a Ross Perot" and front a third party. All he has to do is bulldoze the eventual Republican nominee so far right that he/she still turns off persuadable voters in critical states come November.

You mean, like how Bernie is "bulldozing" Clinton so far Left that she has to turn off persuadable voters in critical states come November...

I am amazed you walked into that one. :D

The Dems Luv them odds

Yea... Clintonistas loved them odds in 2008 too.. :D We know how well that turned out for Clinton.. :D

Michale

http://img.21food.com/20110609/product/1305249755828.jpg

Trump doesn't even have to "pull a Ross Perot" and front a third party. All he has to do is bulldoze the eventual Republican nominee so far right that he/she still turns off persuadable voters in critical states come November.

The Dems Luv them odds!

So, you agree with Peggy Noonan's three anecdotal friends. These three may be real, living breathing people with SS numbers compromised by Chinese hackers, but I suspect they are merely the handy rhetorical devices of an editorial columnist. Noonan (ex Bush speech writer)formally quotes the three friends only twice, and both quotes enclose the same single word: "yeah." Now that's what I call economical use of quotation!

Noonan's editorial isn't exactly flattering to The Donald. By extension, it doesn't paint her phantom friends in a very kindly light either. A sample of quotes from Noonan's editorial:

"No one who looks at Donald Trump will then look at Jeb Bush, John Kasich or Rand Paul and question whether he has the presidential temperament."

"He’s a squid: poke him and get ink all over you."

"He has the power of the man with nothing to lose. If he won he’d be president. If he loses he’s Donald Trump, only a little more famous."

"He puts individuals and groups down in a mean and careless way. He has poor impulse control and is never above the fray. He likes to start fights. That’s a weakness. Eventually he’ll lose one."

" Blowhards don’t wear well." That's the take home from Noonan's article.

Noonan's squid analogy is even better than she realized. Squid are masters at blending in with whatever environment they happen to pass through, they can change colors in the blink of an eye. They are very intelligent, but short lived. If Trump should form a third party, a squid would be the perfect symbol, with red white and blue colors shifting depending on the viewing angle.

By the way Michael, have you by any chance met Noonan and had a short conversation?

I have to concede one point.. If Trump does pull a Ross Perot, it will likely lead to another Dem POTUS... Possibly even if Sanders is the Dem Candidate..

This country cannot handle another Dem POTUS...

Let's hope Trump realizes that...

Michale

Michale

They think he’s real, that he’s under nobody’s thumb, that maybe he’s a big-mouth but he’s a truth-teller. He’s afraid of no one, he’s not politically correct. He’s rich and can’t be bought by some billionaire, because he is the billionaire. He’s talking about what people are thinking and don’t feel free to say. He can turn the economy around because he made a lot of money, so he probably knows how to make jobs.

He is a fighter. People want a fighter. Maybe he’s impolitic but he’s better than some guy who filters everything he says through a screen of political calculation.
-http://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-trumps-appealand-its-limits-1436479851

That pretty much describes how I feel about Donald Trump..

And not one single person here can argue the validity of those points...

Michale

He has his own money so he is not beholden to ANY special interest group or lobbyist...

I mean, ya'all hate $$$ in elections, right?? Trump's richer than god... Ya'all wouldn't have to worry about him being bought off by special interests like Hillary...

Looking at the facts (There's that 'F' word again) one would think Donald Trump is ya'all's dream candidate.... :D

Michale

Can anyone tell me EXACTLY where Trump's facts are not in order??

Because, we're ALL about *facts* here...

Right???

Michale

Many on the Right ridiculed an unknown black senator from Illinois.. They said there is NO WAY this guy could be POTUS..

And he went on to be America's first AA POTUS..

So, I wouldn't be so giddy if I were ya'all... Stranger things have happened than a TRUMP POTUS'ency :D

Michale

For me, it was: "I'm like a smart person." Deconstruct that!

Heh.

-CW

No thanks. I'm registering (R) and I want Trump to be my party's nominee.

“Let’s assume that the studies, which say that I’m wrong, are true. That doesn’t mean that I’m not right.” - The Donald