Comments on: Cake Wars Getting Stickier http://www.chrisweigant.com/2015/04/06/cake-wars-getting-stickier/ Reality-based political commentary Wed, 20 May 2026 00:37:42 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Michale http://www.chrisweigant.com/2015/04/06/cake-wars-getting-stickier/#comment-58623 Michale Sat, 11 Apr 2015 10:49:01 +0000 http://www.chrisweigant.com/?p=10527#comment-58623 <I>As for the hairdresser, it is an expansion of the cake conundrum. Are business owners actually free to make good on those "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" signs, or not? It pains me to say it, but you raise a good example for discussion.</I> Thank you. :D It means a LOT to see that.. I mean that sincerely... Michale As for the hairdresser, it is an expansion of the cake conundrum. Are business owners actually free to make good on those "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" signs, or not? It pains me to say it, but you raise a good example for discussion.

Thank you. :D

It means a LOT to see that.. I mean that sincerely...

Michale

]]> By: Chris Weigant http://www.chrisweigant.com/2015/04/06/cake-wars-getting-stickier/#comment-58616 Chris Weigant Sat, 11 Apr 2015 07:55:22 +0000 http://www.chrisweigant.com/?p=10527#comment-58616 Paula [1] - Good question. Initially, I was of the knee-jerk reaction that the gay wedding cakes should be mandatory, but then had to stop and think when the backlash-to-the-backlash cake stories started appearing. I wanted to write this without drawing conclusions, but since I've read the comments and other articles, have come to a few: (1) refusing to bake a cake is a different thing than refusing to write a message. (2) refusing a message -- whether it's toy couples on a cake or written icing -- should be consistent. If the bakery refuses to do it for one customer, they should refuse it for all. So if anyone wants a political or religious message on a cake, icing should be provided for the customer to write it -- no matter whether the baker agrees or not. Consistency, in this regard = non-discrimination. Providing the service for some but not all is discriminatory. As with the Satanist example you bring up, the best thing is for government to treat all religions equally. This means "all or nothing" -- either all religions are welcome (including a Festivus pole next to the manger display), or none are. Anything other than all or nothinig is discriminatory, and unconstitutional. pmason1100 [2] - You bring up a good point. Either other religious bakers are more ready to accomodate those of other beliefs (they'd almost have to be, considering the religious makeup of America and their own minority status), or the media just never got around to investigating this aspect. Don't really know which it is, but like I say you raise an interesting point. John From Censornati [4,5] - Um... Matthew 7:1? Heh. DisabledDoc [6] - You are right. On the grand spectrum of ethical and moral choices, cake ranks pretty low. Michale [7] - If it was totally bipartisan, how can it be the Democrats fault? Heh. Just kidding... I almost went into the history of the federal RFRA, which was created (believe it or not) to give rights back to American Indians to religiously take peyote. No foolin', you can't make this stuff up. But didn't want to distract from the issues at hand. Although I still think the American Indian Church is a completely unconstitutional problem on its own -- what other church is limited, by law, to certain ethnicities? Why can't ANY American citizen join this church, instead of having to prove their ancestry to the federal government? Talk about infringing on religious liberties! Don't get me started on THAT one... As for the hairdresser, it is an expansion of the cake conundrum. Are business owners actually free to make good on those "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" signs, or not? It pains me to say it, but you raise a good example for discussion. But, in your [8] comment, you discount a very real possibility here in the West. If there's only one baker or photographer or florist in a radius of, say, 200 miles, and that business owner had a policy of, say, not serving bald white men, how would you feel about driving an extra 8 hour round trip to find another? Be honest. Would you feel pissed off? Would you feel "there ought to be a law!"? Just a question to get you thinking... Mopshell [10] - OK, good point, and futher legal data for the conversation. But was the court's decision the right one, in your opinion? Michale [12] - This is a red herring. Should the US government, after all, refuse to do any business with Saudi Arabia? There's a difference in what happens here at home -- in the country we call home -- and foreign lands. The difference? When you're a citizen, you have a very vested interest in influencing the government with your views. In foreign lands, not so much. Or, to put it another way, what do you think of the BDS movement for Palestine? Or even, how many conservatives who scream "We can't do business with CUBA, human rights! Freedom! Etc! Etc!" but then don't have any problem with doing business in Vietnam... or China. In other words, conservatives aren't the most pure when it comes to what countries to do business with... Conservative "logic" is just as silly, in other words... John M [15] - Oh, snap! THAT's the way to get Michale's attention! Well done! :-) Michale [16] - Try this, just for a minute: when you talk of "destroying someone's livelihood," substitute "interracial couple" for "gay couple." Does it seem as reasonable with that substitution, or not? Just food for thought. [19] - <em>And the answer goes to what I was saying before. It's because the Left targets christians for their discrimination claims..</em> Or, maybe, it's because Christians are the only ones discriminating? Maybe there are no examples of other religions because they don't actually exist? [20] - No, no, wasn't implying that -- was more worried about the HuffPost comments, to tell you the truth... :-) JohnM [21] - Exactly! Michale [23] - OK, I have to agree with you on this point -- cake decorating is an artform. I would argue that one strenuously, actually. Which brings up a whole different Bill of Rights thing, actually. But just wanted to agree with you momentarily, as it were. Done bad or done brilliantly, cake decoration is indeed an art. [24] - This was a point made on a HuffPost comment, actually: a photographer can refuse to do nude photos, as long as they refuse to do it for everyone. That is not discriminatory, it is merely a business policy. That way, no matter who comes in and asks for a nude photo, it will be refused equally. As long as the policy is neutral, and doesn't mean a baker cheerfully makes a cake with a political message they agree with, but refuses for a message they don't -- then it's a neutral business policy. [27] - <strong>Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away?</strong> -Ellen Ripley, <em>Aliens</em> Couldn't resist. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPa5oVG-nII OK, that's enough for now... -CW Paula [1] -

Good question. Initially, I was of the knee-jerk reaction that the gay wedding cakes should be mandatory, but then had to stop and think when the backlash-to-the-backlash cake stories started appearing.

I wanted to write this without drawing conclusions, but since I've read the comments and other articles, have come to a few:

(1) refusing to bake a cake is a different thing than refusing to write a message.

(2) refusing a message -- whether it's toy couples on a cake or written icing -- should be consistent. If the bakery refuses to do it for one customer, they should refuse it for all. So if anyone wants a political or religious message on a cake, icing should be provided for the customer to write it -- no matter whether the baker agrees or not. Consistency, in this regard = non-discrimination. Providing the service for some but not all is discriminatory.

As with the Satanist example you bring up, the best thing is for government to treat all religions equally. This means "all or nothing" -- either all religions are welcome (including a Festivus pole next to the manger display), or none are. Anything other than all or nothinig is discriminatory, and unconstitutional.

pmason1100 [2] -

You bring up a good point. Either other religious bakers are more ready to accomodate those of other beliefs (they'd almost have to be, considering the religious makeup of America and their own minority status), or the media just never got around to investigating this aspect. Don't really know which it is, but like I say you raise an interesting point.

John From Censornati [4,5] -

Um... Matthew 7:1?

Heh.

DisabledDoc [6] -

You are right. On the grand spectrum of ethical and moral choices, cake ranks pretty low.

Michale [7] -

If it was totally bipartisan, how can it be the Democrats fault? Heh.

Just kidding... I almost went into the history of the federal RFRA, which was created (believe it or not) to give rights back to American Indians to religiously take peyote. No foolin', you can't make this stuff up. But didn't want to distract from the issues at hand.

Although I still think the American Indian Church is a completely unconstitutional problem on its own -- what other church is limited, by law, to certain ethnicities? Why can't ANY American citizen join this church, instead of having to prove their ancestry to the federal government? Talk about infringing on religious liberties! Don't get me started on THAT one...

As for the hairdresser, it is an expansion of the cake conundrum. Are business owners actually free to make good on those "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" signs, or not? It pains me to say it, but you raise a good example for discussion.

But, in your [8] comment, you discount a very real possibility here in the West. If there's only one baker or photographer or florist in a radius of, say, 200 miles, and that business owner had a policy of, say, not serving bald white men, how would you feel about driving an extra 8 hour round trip to find another? Be honest. Would you feel pissed off? Would you feel "there ought to be a law!"?

Just a question to get you thinking...

Mopshell [10] -

OK, good point, and futher legal data for the conversation. But was the court's decision the right one, in your opinion?

Michale [12] -

This is a red herring. Should the US government, after all, refuse to do any business with Saudi Arabia? There's a difference in what happens here at home -- in the country we call home -- and foreign lands. The difference? When you're a citizen, you have a very vested interest in influencing the government with your views. In foreign lands, not so much.

Or, to put it another way, what do you think of the BDS movement for Palestine?

Or even, how many conservatives who scream "We can't do business with CUBA, human rights! Freedom! Etc! Etc!" but then don't have any problem with doing business in Vietnam... or China.

In other words, conservatives aren't the most pure when it comes to what countries to do business with...

Conservative "logic" is just as silly, in other words...

John M [15] -

Oh, snap! THAT's the way to get Michale's attention! Well done!

:-)

Michale [16] -

Try this, just for a minute: when you talk of "destroying someone's livelihood," substitute "interracial couple" for "gay couple." Does it seem as reasonable with that substitution, or not?

Just food for thought.

[19] -

And the answer goes to what I was saying before. It's because the Left targets christians for their discrimination claims..

Or, maybe, it's because Christians are the only ones discriminating? Maybe there are no examples of other religions because they don't actually exist?

[20] -

No, no, wasn't implying that -- was more worried about the HuffPost comments, to tell you the truth...

:-)

JohnM [21] -

Exactly!

Michale [23] -

OK, I have to agree with you on this point -- cake decorating is an artform. I would argue that one strenuously, actually. Which brings up a whole different Bill of Rights thing, actually. But just wanted to agree with you momentarily, as it were. Done bad or done brilliantly, cake decoration is indeed an art.

[24] -

This was a point made on a HuffPost comment, actually: a photographer can refuse to do nude photos, as long as they refuse to do it for everyone. That is not discriminatory, it is merely a business policy. That way, no matter who comes in and asks for a nude photo, it will be refused equally.

As long as the policy is neutral, and doesn't mean a baker cheerfully makes a cake with a political message they agree with, but refuses for a message they don't -- then it's a neutral business policy.

[27] -

Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away?
-Ellen Ripley, Aliens

Couldn't resist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPa5oVG-nII

OK, that's enough for now...

-CW

]]> By: Michale http://www.chrisweigant.com/2015/04/06/cake-wars-getting-stickier/#comment-58554 Michale Thu, 09 Apr 2015 12:23:28 +0000 http://www.chrisweigant.com/?p=10527#comment-58554 What it all boils down to is this.. Do business owners have the right, all things being equal, to run their businesses as they see fit and in accordance with their morals and values.. As is evidenced by the Santa Fe HairDresser and the Colorado Pro-Gay baker, the Left says YES... As is evidenced by the Indiana Pizzeria and the Colorado Pro-Christian baker, the Left says NO.... And therein lies the hypocrisy of the Left... The Left is totally against discrimination and bigotry... Unless, of course, the proper people/groups are discriminated against... Then the Left is all for it, as evidenced by the hero worship of the Santa Fe hairdresser on HuffPoo... Michale What it all boils down to is this..

Do business owners have the right, all things being equal, to run their businesses as they see fit and in accordance with their morals and values..

As is evidenced by the Santa Fe HairDresser and the Colorado Pro-Gay baker, the Left says YES...

As is evidenced by the Indiana Pizzeria and the Colorado Pro-Christian baker, the Left says NO....

And therein lies the hypocrisy of the Left...

The Left is totally against discrimination and bigotry... Unless, of course, the proper people/groups are discriminated against... Then the Left is all for it, as evidenced by the hero worship of the Santa Fe hairdresser on HuffPoo...

Michale

]]> By: Michale http://www.chrisweigant.com/2015/04/06/cake-wars-getting-stickier/#comment-58549 Michale Wed, 08 Apr 2015 21:38:49 +0000 http://www.chrisweigant.com/?p=10527#comment-58549 <I>No baker can be compelled to add a message, and both Azucar and Masterpiece were held to the same standard there as well.</I> If I recall correctly, the christian bakers in question would have been happy to make the gay couples any kind of cake, except a WEDDING cake... They would have been happy to make them muffins or cupcakes or cookies or anything else... But not a WEDDING cake... A WEDDING cake is nothing more than an added message to a regular cake.. Therefore, the rulings ARE inconsistent and unfairly favored the pro-gay baker and unfairly penalized the pro-christian baker... In short, the HuffPoo author is talking out his arse with his claims.. Michale No baker can be compelled to add a message, and both Azucar and Masterpiece were held to the same standard there as well.

If I recall correctly, the christian bakers in question would have been happy to make the gay couples any kind of cake, except a WEDDING cake... They would have been happy to make them muffins or cupcakes or cookies or anything else...

But not a WEDDING cake...

A WEDDING cake is nothing more than an added message to a regular cake..

Therefore, the rulings ARE inconsistent and unfairly favored the pro-gay baker and unfairly penalized the pro-christian baker...

In short, the HuffPoo author is talking out his arse with his claims..

Michale

]]> By: Michale http://www.chrisweigant.com/2015/04/06/cake-wars-getting-stickier/#comment-58548 Michale Wed, 08 Apr 2015 21:19:29 +0000 http://www.chrisweigant.com/?p=10527#comment-58548 Sean Stephane Martin's comment is dead on ballz accurate... <B>Speaking as a Canadian, I trust all of you realize how silly this sounds from our side of the border. When did the collective IQ in the "Leader of the Free World" drop by about 14 points? People getting upset about CAKE? I mean, seriously?? Then initiating lawsuits over... CAKE? SERIOUSLY??? Are there no grown ups left in your country? Are all the GMO chemicals affecting everyone's brains? And I say that with a certain degree of seriousness, because yours is about the only country that allows them and in tandem with that, you're quickly becoming the most absurd place on the planet. Cake. Honestly.</B> Priceless...... CW if it's not allowed to re-post comments from HuffPoo, please delete this... Michale Sean Stephane Martin's comment is dead on ballz accurate...

Speaking as a Canadian, I trust all of you realize how silly this sounds from our side of the border. When did the collective IQ in the "Leader of the Free World" drop by about 14 points? People getting upset about CAKE? I mean, seriously?? Then initiating lawsuits over... CAKE? SERIOUSLY??? Are there no grown ups left in your country? Are all the GMO chemicals affecting everyone's brains? And I say that with a certain degree of seriousness, because yours is about the only country that allows them and in tandem with that, you're quickly becoming the most absurd place on the planet.

Cake.

Honestly.

Priceless......

CW if it's not allowed to re-post comments from HuffPoo, please delete this...

Michale

]]> By: Michale http://www.chrisweigant.com/2015/04/06/cake-wars-getting-stickier/#comment-58547 Michale Wed, 08 Apr 2015 21:16:53 +0000 http://www.chrisweigant.com/?p=10527#comment-58547 <I>Here's a few interesting legal cites stemming from these cases (gotta admit, the title of the article caught my eye...):</I> <B>No baker can be compelled to add a message, and both Azucar and Masterpiece were held to the same standard there as well.</B> What's wrong with this guy's analysis is that he doesn't get that, for an artist, the act *IS* the message... This guy also fails on the most basic point... The Pro Gay person is allowed to run their business in accordance with their beliefs.. The Pro Christian person is not.. THERE is the inconsistency in the rulings... Michale Here's a few interesting legal cites stemming from these cases (gotta admit, the title of the article caught my eye...):

No baker can be compelled to add a message, and both Azucar and Masterpiece were held to the same standard there as well.

What's wrong with this guy's analysis is that he doesn't get that, for an artist, the act *IS* the message...

This guy also fails on the most basic point...

The Pro Gay person is allowed to run their business in accordance with their beliefs..

The Pro Christian person is not..

THERE is the inconsistency in the rulings...

Michale

]]> By: Chris Weigant http://www.chrisweigant.com/2015/04/06/cake-wars-getting-stickier/#comment-58546 Chris Weigant Wed, 08 Apr 2015 20:54:21 +0000 http://www.chrisweigant.com/?p=10527#comment-58546 Here's a few interesting legal cites stemming from these cases (gotta admit, the title of the article caught my eye...): http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-peron/cake-wars-the-sequel_b_7020676.html Interesting. -CW Here's a few interesting legal cites stemming from these cases (gotta admit, the title of the article caught my eye...):

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-peron/cake-wars-the-sequel_b_7020676.html

Interesting.

-CW

]]> By: Michale http://www.chrisweigant.com/2015/04/06/cake-wars-getting-stickier/#comment-58540 Michale Wed, 08 Apr 2015 15:49:17 +0000 http://www.chrisweigant.com/?p=10527#comment-58540 It goes back to a photographer refusing to photograph a group orgy because it violates their christian beliefs... Nobody would say "BOO" about something like that, would they?? As an artist, there is a LOT more leeway in what someone will and won't do.. I sell and repair computers and TVs.. I don't have much leeway in saying what I will and won't do... Well, I don't have much of a morality center either, so there is that.. :D I have one simple philosophy in my business... http://sjfm.us/temp/mfccfl.jpg The short version is if you are polite and friendly, you will find no more faithful a worker than I... If yer an asshole?? Well, I can be faithful to that as well. :D Seems to work out OK because I am kept pretty busy... :D Michale It goes back to a photographer refusing to photograph a group orgy because it violates their christian beliefs...

Nobody would say "BOO" about something like that, would they??

As an artist, there is a LOT more leeway in what someone will and won't do..

I sell and repair computers and TVs.. I don't have much leeway in saying what I will and won't do...

Well, I don't have much of a morality center either, so there is that.. :D

I have one simple philosophy in my business...

http://sjfm.us/temp/mfccfl.jpg

The short version is if you are polite and friendly, you will find no more faithful a worker than I...

If yer an asshole?? Well, I can be faithful to that as well. :D

Seems to work out OK because I am kept pretty busy... :D

Michale

]]> By: Michale http://www.chrisweigant.com/2015/04/06/cake-wars-getting-stickier/#comment-58539 Michale Wed, 08 Apr 2015 15:17:36 +0000 http://www.chrisweigant.com/?p=10527#comment-58539 <I>If they are the only provider of the product or service in a small rural town, what then? What is the couple to do if there is no other place to go?</I> But they weren't... And, if it's something so superfluous as a wedding cake, they can travel... Look at the greater evil.. Someone whose life and lively hood is destroyed.... vs Someone having to drive an extra half hour somewhere... <I>You might be able to say that cake decorating is art. </I> My daughter does cake decorating. I can assure you with complete and utter certainty that cake decorating is art... <I>If I can claim I don't have to sell a cake to a gay couple because I would be forced to make the cake, then what about a supplier of liquor to a gay wedding reception? Do I get the same claim even though I did not make the alcohol myself???</I> It's a straight retail transaction... While someone could CLAIM they don't want to sell licquor to a gay couple, it would not have the same strength of claim that an artist's claim would have... Michale If they are the only provider of the product or service in a small rural town, what then? What is the couple to do if there is no other place to go?

But they weren't...

And, if it's something so superfluous as a wedding cake, they can travel...

Look at the greater evil..

Someone whose life and lively hood is destroyed....

vs

Someone having to drive an extra half hour somewhere...

You might be able to say that cake decorating is art.

My daughter does cake decorating. I can assure you with complete and utter certainty that cake decorating is art...

If I can claim I don't have to sell a cake to a gay couple because I would be forced to make the cake, then what about a supplier of liquor to a gay wedding reception? Do I get the same claim even though I did not make the alcohol myself???

It's a straight retail transaction...

While someone could CLAIM they don't want to sell licquor to a gay couple, it would not have the same strength of claim that an artist's claim would have...

Michale

]]> By: John M http://www.chrisweigant.com/2015/04/06/cake-wars-getting-stickier/#comment-58538 John M Wed, 08 Apr 2015 14:50:51 +0000 http://www.chrisweigant.com/?p=10527#comment-58538 Michale wrote: "So, as long as it's an APPROVED message, then everything is OK... Constitutional protections are NOT in place to protect "approved" messages and speech and such.. Constitutional protections are in place to protect the UN-APPROVED messages, the controversial messages..." Ok, you have me confused. Are you arguing the point that the baker has a religious liberty right in not baking a cake, or that they have a free speech right because the cake decorating is art, which is it? You might be able to say that cake decorating is art. But what about a plain undecorated cake??? Does the person who makes the canvas for an artist to paint upon, have the same claim to an artistic exemption as the artist himself??? If I can claim I don't have to sell a cake to a gay couple because I would be forced to make the cake, then what about a supplier of liquor to a gay wedding reception? Do I get the same claim even though I did not make the alcohol myself??? Michale wrote:

"So, as long as it's an APPROVED message, then everything is OK...
Constitutional protections are NOT in place to protect "approved" messages and speech and such..
Constitutional protections are in place to protect the UN-APPROVED messages, the controversial messages..."

Ok, you have me confused. Are you arguing the point that the baker has a religious liberty right in not baking a cake, or that they have a free speech right because the cake decorating is art, which is it?

You might be able to say that cake decorating is art. But what about a plain undecorated cake??? Does the person who makes the canvas for an artist to paint upon, have the same claim to an artistic exemption as the artist himself???

If I can claim I don't have to sell a cake to a gay couple because I would be forced to make the cake, then what about a supplier of liquor to a gay wedding reception? Do I get the same claim even though I did not make the alcohol myself???

]]> By: John M http://www.chrisweigant.com/2015/04/06/cake-wars-getting-stickier/#comment-58537 John M Wed, 08 Apr 2015 14:44:02 +0000 http://www.chrisweigant.com/?p=10527#comment-58537 Michale wrote: "So, since it is JUST a cake, why can't a gay couple just go somewhere else to have it made?? Why does a gay couple have to destroy a person's life and lively-hood??" If they are the only provider of the product or service in a small rural town, what then? What is the couple to do if there is no other place to go? Michale wrote:

"So, since it is JUST a cake, why can't a gay couple just go somewhere else to have it made?? Why does a gay couple have to destroy a person's life and lively-hood??"

If they are the only provider of the product or service in a small rural town, what then? What is the couple to do if there is no other place to go?

]]> By: Michale http://www.chrisweigant.com/2015/04/06/cake-wars-getting-stickier/#comment-58526 Michale Wed, 08 Apr 2015 09:42:19 +0000 http://www.chrisweigant.com/?p=10527#comment-58526 <I>I have to say, I was pretty worried about this article and the reactions it would provoke. I thought about it while reading other articles and their comment threads, and saw some real viciousness from both sides, so I wasn't sure what to expect.</I> Why do I feel like the Eye Of Sauron swiveled in my direction?? :D Michale I have to say, I was pretty worried about this article and the reactions it would provoke. I thought about it while reading other articles and their comment threads, and saw some real viciousness from both sides, so I wasn't sure what to expect.

Why do I feel like the Eye Of Sauron swiveled in my direction?? :D

Michale

]]> By: Michale http://www.chrisweigant.com/2015/04/06/cake-wars-getting-stickier/#comment-58524 Michale Wed, 08 Apr 2015 08:49:22 +0000 http://www.chrisweigant.com/?p=10527#comment-58524 pmason1100, As I am wont to do... <B>"Welcome To The Party, PAL!!!"</b> -John McClane, DIE HARD :D <I>I'm curious as to why is this issue only being addressed with Christian leaders. I never hear of a panel of Jewish, Muslim, or other leaders getting drilled by the media regarding this whole controversy and I want to hear what they would say. Do they also have issues with this topic or are they completely onboard with the LGBT perspective.</I> That's a very good point... And the answer goes to what I was saying before. It's because the Left targets christians for their discrimination claims.. We know for a fact that muslim bakers and such don't get the same sort of discrimination attention that christian bakers get from the Left... If your a christian, the Left targets you... All other religions appear to be safe from these vicious attacks.. At least, that's what the facts show... Michale pmason1100,

As I am wont to do...

"Welcome To The Party, PAL!!!"
-John McClane, DIE HARD

:D

I'm curious as to why is this issue only being addressed with Christian leaders. I never hear of a panel of Jewish, Muslim, or other leaders getting drilled by the media regarding this whole controversy and I want to hear what they would say. Do they also have issues with this topic or are they completely onboard with the LGBT perspective.

That's a very good point...

And the answer goes to what I was saying before. It's because the Left targets christians for their discrimination claims..

We know for a fact that muslim bakers and such don't get the same sort of discrimination attention that christian bakers get from the Left...

If your a christian, the Left targets you...

All other religions appear to be safe from these vicious attacks..

At least, that's what the facts show...

Michale

]]> By: Chris Weigant http://www.chrisweigant.com/2015/04/06/cake-wars-getting-stickier/#comment-58519 Chris Weigant Tue, 07 Apr 2015 23:48:45 +0000 http://www.chrisweigant.com/?p=10527#comment-58519 pmason1100 - (comment [2]) Welcome to the site. Your first comment was held for moderation, but from now on you'll be able to post comments and see them appear instantly. Just don't post more than one link per comment, as those will be automatically held for moderation (which can sometimes take awhile, my apologies for the delay). In any case, welcome to the site! -CW pmason1100 -

(comment [2])

Welcome to the site. Your first comment was held for moderation, but from now on you'll be able to post comments and see them appear instantly. Just don't post more than one link per comment, as those will be automatically held for moderation (which can sometimes take awhile, my apologies for the delay).

In any case, welcome to the site!

-CW

]]> By: Chris Weigant http://www.chrisweigant.com/2015/04/06/cake-wars-getting-stickier/#comment-58518 Chris Weigant Tue, 07 Apr 2015 23:45:40 +0000 http://www.chrisweigant.com/?p=10527#comment-58518 OK, just getting ready to post today's article... I have to say, I was pretty worried about this article and the reactions it would provoke. I thought about it while reading other articles and their comment threads, and saw some real viciousness from both sides, so I wasn't sure what to expect. I have to say I am pretty happy with the conversations it has provoked, both here and on HuffPost. Don't agree with everything, but for the most part people "got" what I was saying. I guess I was happiest about the fact that most understood I wrote it without taking a stand -- sometimes I write pure analysis pieces like this and everyone assumes I'm supporting one position or another. This time, nobody really did, I think. In any case, I'll come back and answer some of these comments later, just wanted to pass that on. -CW OK, just getting ready to post today's article...

I have to say, I was pretty worried about this article and the reactions it would provoke. I thought about it while reading other articles and their comment threads, and saw some real viciousness from both sides, so I wasn't sure what to expect.

I have to say I am pretty happy with the conversations it has provoked, both here and on HuffPost. Don't agree with everything, but for the most part people "got" what I was saying. I guess I was happiest about the fact that most understood I wrote it without taking a stand -- sometimes I write pure analysis pieces like this and everyone assumes I'm supporting one position or another. This time, nobody really did, I think.

In any case, I'll come back and answer some of these comments later, just wanted to pass that on.

-CW

]]> By: Michale http://www.chrisweigant.com/2015/04/06/cake-wars-getting-stickier/#comment-58514 Michale Tue, 07 Apr 2015 18:27:17 +0000 http://www.chrisweigant.com/?p=10527#comment-58514 <I>I don't think a gay baker or an atheist one would have any problem whatsoever making a cake for Christians that celebrates their religion. Making and decorating a cake for them that says "Jesus Saves" for instance on it.</I> So, as long as it's an APPROVED message, then everything is OK... Constitutional protections are NOT in place to protect "approved" messages and speech and such.. Constitutional protections are in place to protect the UN-APPROVED messages, the controversial messages... We don't need the constitution to protect "SEE SPOT. SEE SPOT RUN".... We need the constitution to protect "GAY PEOPLE SUCK!!!" and "REPUBLICANS ARE TERRORISTS!!!" and stuff like that.. <I> Would that mean that every time I sell something to someone as a cashier at Walmart, for instance, that I am actually participating in whatever event they are having? Is that true of all retail transactions???</I> But it's NOT just a retail transaction.. It's art... It's a piece of the artist and represents their beliefs.. That's the distinction that ya'all are missing... http://www.chrisweigant.com/2015/04/03/ftp340/#comment-58444 <I>As Deanna Troi said, "Sometimes Data, a cake is just a cake."</I> Exactly.. So, since it is JUST a cake, why can't a gay couple just go somewhere else to have it made?? Why does a gay couple have to destroy a person's life and lively-hood?? Michale I don't think a gay baker or an atheist one would have any problem whatsoever making a cake for Christians that celebrates their religion. Making and decorating a cake for them that says "Jesus Saves" for instance on it.

So, as long as it's an APPROVED message, then everything is OK...

Constitutional protections are NOT in place to protect "approved" messages and speech and such..

Constitutional protections are in place to protect the UN-APPROVED messages, the controversial messages...

We don't need the constitution to protect "SEE SPOT. SEE SPOT RUN".... We need the constitution to protect "GAY PEOPLE SUCK!!!" and "REPUBLICANS ARE TERRORISTS!!!" and stuff like that..

Would that mean that every time I sell something to someone as a cashier at Walmart, for instance, that I am actually participating in whatever event they are having? Is that true of all retail transactions???

But it's NOT just a retail transaction..

It's art... It's a piece of the artist and represents their beliefs..

That's the distinction that ya'all are missing...

http://www.chrisweigant.com/2015/04/03/ftp340/#comment-58444

As Deanna Troi said, "Sometimes Data, a cake is just a cake."

Exactly..

So, since it is JUST a cake, why can't a gay couple just go somewhere else to have it made?? Why does a gay couple have to destroy a person's life and lively-hood??

Michale

]]> By: John M http://www.chrisweigant.com/2015/04/06/cake-wars-getting-stickier/#comment-58512 John M Tue, 07 Apr 2015 18:06:38 +0000 http://www.chrisweigant.com/?p=10527#comment-58512 Here's another one for you Michale: As Deanna Troi said, "Sometimes Data, a cake is just a cake." Here's another one for you Michale:

As Deanna Troi said, "Sometimes Data, a cake is just a cake."

]]> By: John M http://www.chrisweigant.com/2015/04/06/cake-wars-getting-stickier/#comment-58511 John M Tue, 07 Apr 2015 18:03:53 +0000 http://www.chrisweigant.com/?p=10527#comment-58511 Michale wrote: "Gays want a cake that celebrates their beliefs.. If a christian doesn't make it for them, they are harrassed and attacked and threatened... But if, gods forbid, a christian wants a cake that celebrates THEIR beliefs???" I think there is a very fine distinction here that you and everyone else is ignoring. I don't think a gay baker or an atheist one would have any problem whatsoever making a cake for Christians that celebrates their religion. Making and decorating a cake for them that says "Jesus Saves" for instance on it. So why shouldn't the Christian baker also have no problem making a cake for a gay couple with two men as a wedding topper on it? The point would be in their refusal to even make a cake in the first place. Are you really being forced to participate in the gay wedding simply by making a cake for it as they contend? Would that mean that every time I sell something to someone as a cashier at Walmart, for instance, that I am actually participating in whatever event they are having? Is that true of all retail transactions??? Michale wrote:

"Gays want a cake that celebrates their beliefs.. If a christian doesn't make it for them, they are harrassed and attacked and threatened...

But if, gods forbid, a christian wants a cake that celebrates THEIR beliefs???"

I think there is a very fine distinction here that you and everyone else is ignoring.

I don't think a gay baker or an atheist one would have any problem whatsoever making a cake for Christians that celebrates their religion. Making and decorating a cake for them that says "Jesus Saves" for instance on it.

So why shouldn't the Christian baker also have no problem making a cake for a gay couple with two men as a wedding topper on it?

The point would be in their refusal to even make a cake in the first place.

Are you really being forced to participate in the gay wedding simply by making a cake for it as they contend? Would that mean that every time I sell something to someone as a cashier at Walmart, for instance, that I am actually participating in whatever event they are having? Is that true of all retail transactions???

]]> By: Michale http://www.chrisweigant.com/2015/04/06/cake-wars-getting-stickier/#comment-58508 Michale Tue, 07 Apr 2015 17:41:21 +0000 http://www.chrisweigant.com/?p=10527#comment-58508 I mean, honestly.. Someone please explain the logic to me.. <B>"I am not going to do business in Indiana because some pizzeria owner, in a hypothetical, stated she won't cater a gay wedding..... But I WILL do business with countries that execute gay people, simply for their lifestyle choices.."</B> Liberal "logic"... It knows no bounds of ludicrousness and ridiculousness... Michale I mean, honestly.. Someone please explain the logic to me..

"I am not going to do business in Indiana because some pizzeria owner, in a hypothetical, stated she won't cater a gay wedding.....

But I WILL do business with countries that execute gay people, simply for their lifestyle choices.."

Liberal "logic"...

It knows no bounds of ludicrousness and ridiculousness...

Michale

]]> By: Michale http://www.chrisweigant.com/2015/04/06/cake-wars-getting-stickier/#comment-58499 Michale Tue, 07 Apr 2015 16:32:30 +0000 http://www.chrisweigant.com/?p=10527#comment-58499 Speaking of hypocrites and discrimination?? <B>“Our message, to people around the country and around the world, is this: Apple is open. Open to everyone, regardless of where they come from, what they look like, how they worship or who they love. Regardless of what the law might allow in Indiana or Arkansas, we will never tolerate discrimination. …This is about how we treat each other as human beings… Opposing discrimination takes courage. With the lives and dignity of so many people at stake, it’s time for all of us to be courageous.”</B> -APPLE CEO Tim Cook So, this Cook guy talks about being courageous and standing up against discrimination... So, of course, Tim Cook will pull out all the stops and completely pull his business ventures out of Nigeria, Qatar and Saudi Arabia.. Come on, Mr Cook.... Show some courage!! Or is it more likely that you just pay lip service to the concern over gay people and yer REAL interests begin and end at the bottom line... This is why it's impossible to take activists like Cook seriously.. They talk about "courage" and "dignity" but they are only talking out their asses... Michale Speaking of hypocrites and discrimination??

“Our message, to people around the country and around the world, is this: Apple is open. Open to everyone, regardless of where they come from, what they look like, how they worship or who they love. Regardless of what the law might allow in Indiana or Arkansas, we will never tolerate discrimination.

…This is about how we treat each other as human beings… Opposing discrimination takes courage. With the lives and dignity of so many people at stake, it’s time for all of us to be courageous.”
-APPLE CEO Tim Cook

So, this Cook guy talks about being courageous and standing up against discrimination...

So, of course, Tim Cook will pull out all the stops and completely pull his business ventures out of Nigeria, Qatar and Saudi Arabia..

Come on, Mr Cook....

Show some courage!!

Or is it more likely that you just pay lip service to the concern over gay people and yer REAL interests begin and end at the bottom line...

This is why it's impossible to take activists like Cook seriously.. They talk about "courage" and "dignity" but they are only talking out their asses...

Michale

]]> By: Michale http://www.chrisweigant.com/2015/04/06/cake-wars-getting-stickier/#comment-58497 Michale Tue, 07 Apr 2015 16:27:10 +0000 http://www.chrisweigant.com/?p=10527#comment-58497 <I>In answer to your question "...should the government also force a baker to write any message the customer wants on one of their cakes -- no matter how odious the baker thinks the message is?" the Colorado Civil Rights division declared a Denver baker, who refused to make anti-gay bible cakes, cleared of discrimination.</I> Interesting, iddn't it.. The Left is free to discriminate against christians... Gays want a cake that celebrates their beliefs.. If a christian doesn't make it for them, they are harrassed and attacked and threatened... But if, gods forbid, a christian wants a cake that celebrates THEIR beliefs??? They are told to go pound sand... Hypocrite much??? <I> Before anyone asks, I checked - she did not set up a GoFundMe campaign.</I> Neither did the pizzeria owner in Indiana... What's the point?? Michale In answer to your question "...should the government also force a baker to write any message the customer wants on one of their cakes -- no matter how odious the baker thinks the message is?" the Colorado Civil Rights division declared a Denver baker, who refused to make anti-gay bible cakes, cleared of discrimination.

Interesting, iddn't it..

The Left is free to discriminate against christians...

Gays want a cake that celebrates their beliefs.. If a christian doesn't make it for them, they are harrassed and attacked and threatened...

But if, gods forbid, a christian wants a cake that celebrates THEIR beliefs???

They are told to go pound sand...

Hypocrite much???

Before anyone asks, I checked - she did not set up a GoFundMe campaign.

Neither did the pizzeria owner in Indiana...

What's the point??

Michale

]]> By: Mopshell http://www.chrisweigant.com/2015/04/06/cake-wars-getting-stickier/#comment-58495 Mopshell Tue, 07 Apr 2015 15:26:30 +0000 http://www.chrisweigant.com/?p=10527#comment-58495 In answer to your question "...should the government also force a baker to write any message the customer wants on one of their cakes -- no matter how odious the baker thinks the message is?" the Colorado Civil Rights division declared a Denver baker, who refused to make anti-gay bible cakes, cleared of discrimination. http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/denvers-azucar-bakery-wins-right-to-refuse-to-make-anti-gay-cake As for the Florida baker who also refused to write an anti-gay message on a cake, she initially thought the call she received was an April Fool's joke in bad taste which is why she was so quick to turn the caller down. Shortly after that call, the hate messages began - by phone and on their facebook page. The FBI are now involved because of the multiple death threats she's received. Before anyone asks, I checked - she did not set up a GoFundMe campaign. In answer to your question "...should the government also force a baker to write any message the customer wants on one of their cakes -- no matter how odious the baker thinks the message is?" the Colorado Civil Rights division declared a Denver baker, who refused to make anti-gay bible cakes, cleared of discrimination.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/denvers-azucar-bakery-wins-right-to-refuse-to-make-anti-gay-cake

As for the Florida baker who also refused to write an anti-gay message on a cake, she initially thought the call she received was an April Fool's joke in bad taste which is why she was so quick to turn the caller down. Shortly after that call, the hate messages began - by phone and on their facebook page. The FBI are now involved because of the multiple death threats she's received. Before anyone asks, I checked - she did not set up a GoFundMe campaign.

]]> By: Michale http://www.chrisweigant.com/2015/04/06/cake-wars-getting-stickier/#comment-58491 Michale Tue, 07 Apr 2015 12:07:29 +0000 http://www.chrisweigant.com/?p=10527#comment-58491 DD, Well said.... The problem here is that people on both the Left *AND* the Right are looking at the issue thru the very narrow prism of their own ideological beliefs.. If people would just take a step back and calmly, rationally take a look at the issue from the other person's perspective, it would go a LONG way towards a mutually beneficial decision.. If the Right gets their way, then the Left may experience discrimination. IF the Left gets their way, then those on the Right may experience discrimination... And battle lines are drawn and the hysteria begins... Michale DD,

Well said....

The problem here is that people on both the Left *AND* the Right are looking at the issue thru the very narrow prism of their own ideological beliefs..

If people would just take a step back and calmly, rationally take a look at the issue from the other person's perspective, it would go a LONG way towards a mutually beneficial decision..

If the Right gets their way, then the Left may experience discrimination.

IF the Left gets their way, then those on the Right may experience discrimination...

And battle lines are drawn and the hysteria begins...

Michale

]]> By: Michale http://www.chrisweigant.com/2015/04/06/cake-wars-getting-stickier/#comment-58489 Michale Tue, 07 Apr 2015 10:30:32 +0000 http://www.chrisweigant.com/?p=10527#comment-58489 The solution is really easy.. Let people follow their conscience and their morals.. All things being equal, there are a plethora of services out there that people can choose from.. I mean why would ANYONE want to go to a place where they are not wanted?? The ONLY reason to do so is to make a political statement in furtherance of a partisan agenda... Seems a pretty piss poor reason to destroy someone's life and lively-hood, eh?? Michale The solution is really easy..

Let people follow their conscience and their morals..

All things being equal, there are a plethora of services out there that people can choose from..

I mean why would ANYONE want to go to a place where they are not wanted??

The ONLY reason to do so is to make a political statement in furtherance of a partisan agenda...

Seems a pretty piss poor reason to destroy someone's life and lively-hood, eh??

Michale

]]> By: Michale http://www.chrisweigant.com/2015/04/06/cake-wars-getting-stickier/#comment-58488 Michale Tue, 07 Apr 2015 10:07:15 +0000 http://www.chrisweigant.com/?p=10527#comment-58488 Excellent commentary, CW... It mirrors everything I have been saying regarding the issue... To which, I might add, I have never gotten a satisfactory response with the exception of JM, of course. :D What needs to be kept in mind is that the entire IDEA of the RFRA started with Democrats. The law was championed by today's Democrat leaders, passed nearly unanimously by Democrats and Republicans in Congress and was signed into law by Bill Clinton. The Federal RFRA was a PERFECT example of Congress working together and passing a completely bi-partisan law... And NOW the Hysterical Left is pointing to the law and saying how bigoted, how discriminatory it is... :^/ I am also constrained to point out that we don't HAVE to imagine hypotheticals in order to show how such a sword cuts both ways.. http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/02/23/10488531-stylist-to-anti-gay-marriage-governor-no-haircut-for-you The hairdresser in question was quoted as saying, <B>"I have every right to deny service"</B> As pure a case of discrimination as there is possible to be... Yet, this hairdresser was APPLAUDED for his moral stand in the comments on HuffPoo.. I have to wonder if the denizens of Weigantia would also applaud the discrimination and bigotry committed by this hairdresser.. So, you see.. We don't have to turn to hypotheticals.. Great commentary, CW.. But then again, the ones that make my points for me usually are.. :D heh Michale Excellent commentary, CW...

It mirrors everything I have been saying regarding the issue... To which, I might add, I have never gotten a satisfactory response with the exception of JM, of course. :D

What needs to be kept in mind is that the entire IDEA of the RFRA started with Democrats. The law was championed by today's Democrat leaders, passed nearly unanimously by Democrats and Republicans in Congress and was signed into law by Bill Clinton.

The Federal RFRA was a PERFECT example of Congress working together and passing a completely bi-partisan law...

And NOW the Hysterical Left is pointing to the law and saying how bigoted, how discriminatory it is... :^/

I am also constrained to point out that we don't HAVE to imagine hypotheticals in order to show how such a sword cuts both ways..

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/02/23/10488531-stylist-to-anti-gay-marriage-governor-no-haircut-for-you

The hairdresser in question was quoted as saying, "I have every right to deny service"

As pure a case of discrimination as there is possible to be...

Yet, this hairdresser was APPLAUDED for his moral stand in the comments on HuffPoo..

I have to wonder if the denizens of Weigantia would also applaud the discrimination and bigotry committed by this hairdresser..

So, you see.. We don't have to turn to hypotheticals..

Great commentary, CW..

But then again, the ones that make my points for me usually are.. :D heh

Michale

]]> By: DisabledDoc http://www.chrisweigant.com/2015/04/06/cake-wars-getting-stickier/#comment-58485 DisabledDoc Tue, 07 Apr 2015 06:15:15 +0000 http://www.chrisweigant.com/?p=10527#comment-58485 I could see fallout from the disastrously broad (and discriminatory) Indiana RFRA leading to abolition of RFRAs in general. As a member of a traditionally pacifist church, that worries me -- our young men have enough trouble dealing with Selective Service issues as it is (and if the draft is ever reinstituted, it may be our young women, as well). This issue can get complex when the only thing at issue is a cake. Imagine how difficult it gets when health and well-being, and sometimes life itself are involved, as in my field. As a young resident, at the age of 24, with no real guidance, I had to decide my moral beliefs regarding performing elective terminations. Later, in practice, I had to balance what the hospital was willing to allow (out of concern for public opinion, not morality), the needs of my patient, and what I felt my faith required. These don't have easy answers, and people can die if you make wrong choices! I could see fallout from the disastrously broad (and discriminatory) Indiana RFRA leading to abolition of RFRAs in general. As a member of a traditionally pacifist church, that worries me -- our young men have enough trouble dealing with Selective Service issues as it is (and if the draft is ever reinstituted, it may be our young women, as well).
This issue can get complex when the only thing at issue is a cake. Imagine how difficult it gets when health and well-being, and sometimes life itself are involved, as in my field. As a young resident, at the age of 24, with no real guidance, I had to decide my moral beliefs regarding performing elective terminations. Later, in practice, I had to balance what the hospital was willing to allow (out of concern for public opinion, not morality), the needs of my patient, and what I felt my faith required. These don't have easy answers, and people can die if you make wrong choices!

]]> By: John From Censornati http://www.chrisweigant.com/2015/04/06/cake-wars-getting-stickier/#comment-58484 John From Censornati Tue, 07 Apr 2015 05:26:10 +0000 http://www.chrisweigant.com/?p=10527#comment-58484 God believes it's important for the righteous to judge the wicked. God believes it's important for the righteous to judge the wicked.

]]> By: John From Censornati http://www.chrisweigant.com/2015/04/06/cake-wars-getting-stickier/#comment-58483 John From Censornati Tue, 07 Apr 2015 05:20:27 +0000 http://www.chrisweigant.com/?p=10527#comment-58483 The easy fix would be to pass a gay rights bill with carve-outs for insane religious pizza makers, but that would require the haters to grant that gay people are equal American citizens. Don't hold your breath waiting. That's not what they want. They want to execute gay people because their violent, X-rated source document tells them to. God is love. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomite_Suppression_Act The easy fix would be to pass a gay rights bill with carve-outs for insane religious pizza makers, but that would require the haters to grant that gay people are equal American citizens. Don't hold your breath waiting. That's not what they want. They want to execute gay people because their violent, X-rated source document tells them to. God is love.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomite_Suppression_Act

]]> By: John From Censornati http://www.chrisweigant.com/2015/04/06/cake-wars-getting-stickier/#comment-58482 John From Censornati Tue, 07 Apr 2015 05:05:12 +0000 http://www.chrisweigant.com/?p=10527#comment-58482 Christians are cherry-picking hypocrites. The Big Book of Multiple Choice doesn't say anything about cakes or flowers or photographs (or lesbians even). There is some gibberish about "man lying with man" being an abomination, so they probably shouldn't do that. On the other hand, they are supposed to be spreading the "good news". What better chance would there be to minister to a bunch of lost souls? They could wear their God Hates Fags T-shirts when they deliver the cake. Christians are cherry-picking hypocrites. The Big Book of Multiple Choice doesn't say anything about cakes or flowers or photographs (or lesbians even). There is some gibberish about "man lying with man" being an abomination, so they probably shouldn't do that. On the other hand, they are supposed to be spreading the "good news". What better chance would there be to minister to a bunch of lost souls? They could wear their God Hates Fags T-shirts when they deliver the cake.

]]> By: pmason1100 http://www.chrisweigant.com/2015/04/06/cake-wars-getting-stickier/#comment-58481 pmason1100 Tue, 07 Apr 2015 02:35:02 +0000 http://www.chrisweigant.com/?p=10527#comment-58481 I'm curious as to why is this issue only being addressed with Christian leaders. I never hear of a panel of Jewish, Muslim, or other leaders getting drilled by the media regarding this whole controversy and I want to hear what they would say. Do they also have issues with this topic or are they completely onboard with the LGBT perspective. I'm curious as to why is this issue only being addressed with Christian leaders. I never hear of a panel of Jewish, Muslim, or other leaders getting drilled by the media regarding this whole controversy and I want to hear what they would say. Do they also have issues with this topic or are they completely onboard with the LGBT perspective.

]]> By: Paula http://www.chrisweigant.com/2015/04/06/cake-wars-getting-stickier/#comment-58477 Paula Tue, 07 Apr 2015 00:19:45 +0000 http://www.chrisweigant.com/?p=10527#comment-58477 Hi Chris: Curious if you have reached any conclusions yourself on the questions you raise, or are you just starting to grapple with them? It seems <em>somewhat</em> similar to the situations some places have found themselves in, when, after passing laws intended to "guarantee religious freedom" they find themselves having to deal with Satanists. Hi Chris:

Curious if you have reached any conclusions yourself on the questions you raise, or are you just starting to grapple with them?

It seems somewhat similar to the situations some places have found themselves in, when, after passing laws intended to "guarantee religious freedom" they find themselves having to deal with Satanists.

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