That little bit of BS is right up there with "IF YOU LIKE YOUR HEALTH PLAN, YOU CAN KEEP YOUR HEALTH PLAN" and "I WELCOME THE DEBATE ON MY DOMESTIC SURVEILLANCE PROGRAMS.

The fact that Obama seems to think he has ANY credibility or that he thinks ANYONE can believe what he says...???

It's mind boggling..

Keep hearing from (the usual suspect) that President would like to visit Iran before end of his presidency - now 21 months away

Think we can convince Iran to keep him???

Michale

Oh yea...

We can deal with these clowns.... :^/

Michale

"After months and months of negotiating, the United States and Iran agree that we MIGHT be able to agree at the end of June..."

Jeezus H Chreest...

Either pee or get off the pot....

Michale

I swear.. There ain't nothin' in the world of the here and now that ya can't learn from Star Trek! :D

Michale

It's somewhat ironic how the Sindareen in Star Trek parallel the Iranians of today..

Like the Iranians, the Sindareen were warlike and liked to prey on innocent weaker planets. In Picard's time, a "Sindareen Peace Initiative" was conceived whereas the Federation would give economic assistance to the Sindareen and the Sindareen would behave itself..

The Sindareen (after murdering Counselor Troi) reneged in all the agreements and using the newfound wealth from the Federation Economic Assistance, became a major threat to peace and stability in the galaxy...

That was the altered history..

In the (for lack of better term) "real" timeline, the Federation opted NOT to give the Sindareen any economic aide. This was mainly due to Counselor Troi's discovery that the Sindareen were being duplicitous and had every intention on reneging on the agreements. Hence, her murder that created the alternate timeline..

Of course, the moral of the story is to not prop up tyrannical and murderous regimes. Let them collapse and then give aide to help pick up the pieces. This way, the aid givers have a lot more control over where the aid goes and how it is used...

Surely, ya'all can see the parallels to the Iranian situation...

"That's fiction!!" ya'all exclaim. "That could never happen in real life.."

And yet, that is EXACTLY how the USSR was brought down and eliminated..

There is simply no logical or rational reason to give Iran any consideration whatsoever.. Their actions all across the region gives lie to their claims of innocence..

The *ONLY* reason to support a deal with Iran, the only *POSSIBLE* reason to support dealing with this murderous thuggish regime is to soothe Obama's fractured ego..

Obama's ego is the ONLY reason this deal is still being considered and supported...

Michale

Couldn't have said it better...

Obama needs to channel his inner Reagan...

Oh wait. Obama doesn't HAVE an inner Reagan..

We're scrooed...

Michale

This is Obama's "red line" in Syria all over again..

It is EXACTLY why Obama has absolutely ZERO credibility as POTUS...

Michale

Iran is not negotiating in good faith..

Frak 'em....

"We should probably begin. After all, the Sindareen Peace Initiative would probably proceed far more smoothly without the Sindareen actually being involved..."
-STAR TREK, IMZADI

:D

Michale

Hard ta argue with the logic...

The Obama Administration is negotiating with a regime that promises time and time again Israel's destruction..

Ya gotta wonder how Americans would feel if Britian was in the midst of negotiating with the USSR after Kruschev's WE WILL BURY YOU" speech...

"What's good for the goose is nobody's business but the gander's!"
-Ralph Furley, THREES COMPANY

Michale

House Speaker John A. Boehner, Ohio Republican, extended an invitation to Prime Minister Shinzo Abe to speak to Congress on April 29, which happens to be Showa Day in Japan, a national holiday celebrating the birthday of Hirohito.

Ruh Roh...

Congress has invited another world leader to speak....

The Left is gonna go hysterical bat-shit crazy again!! :D

Michale

:^/

Michale

I concede your point on the Munich Agreement..

It WAS a lot different than the Lausanne Agreement.

Chamberlain was sincere in his diplomacy and not looking to his place in history, as Obama is..

Barack Obama has been compared to British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain , who concluded the ill-fated Munich Pact with Hitler in 1938. But Chamberlain acted out of a sincere belief that he was avoiding a greater evil. Chamberlain was not thinking of his place in history. He was thinking only of the Britain that he loved, a Britain that was all but disarmed, exhausted, and vulnerable. He was dealing with a nation that had been decimated by the Great War, a nation whose “best and brightest” five years earlier had declared in the infamous Oxford Oath that they would not fight for king or country, and a nation that was as materially unprepared for war as Germany was prepared to fight. Chamberlain dealt from a position of weakness, one that Hitler continually exploited in the negotiations, even by changing the time and place to make it more inconvenient for the British leader to attend them.

In sharp contrast, Mr. Obama is acting out of personal aggrandizement. He believes he is replicating President Richard Nixon’s historic opening of China. For Mr. Obama, the Iranian nuclear arms deal is about his place in history. Mr. Obama is dealing from a position of strength that he refuses to use. The sanctions have hurt Iran. Falling oil prices only add to Iran’s vulnerability. Instead of using the sanctions to pursue his original promise that Iran would not get the bomb, Mr. Obama has moved the goal post. Iran would not get the bomb immediately. It would be permitted to enrich uranium well beyond the 5 percent need for generating nuclear energy and be left with a breakout capacity to create a bomb.

http://observer.com/2015/03/president-obama-must-not-complete-a-disastrous-deal-with-iran/

So, I agree with you. There are substantial differences between Chamberlain and Obama...

Michale

We were going for a "Framework" of a deal with Iran..

Even THAT low bar was unobtainable..

Now, the US is hoping for an "understanding"... :^/

What's next??

"We're just hoping to agree on a lunch order"...

An increase in sanctions is the ONLY thing that will force Iran to capitulate...

Michale

It's a LOT more than just "meddling"...

Obama held up Yemen as, what were his words, a "model of US partnership in the fight against terrorism"??

And now Yemen is well on it's way to becoming an Iranian Protectorate...

There are none so blind as those who will not see..

I guess DENIAL is not just a river in Egypt..

What a surprise! A one day extension of the talks.

Yea, I guess Obama's promises are like the "red line" in Syria.. Non binding on Obama... :^/

Since you insist on dodging the question, I'll ask again..

Negotiating with these fanatics is pointless.. Anything they WOULD agree to would just be to serve their purposes..

And it's not as if they can be trusted to adhere to any agreement that they WOULD agree to...

The IAEA has clearly stated that Iran is not in compliance with even the most basic PMD disclosures....

What makes you think the Iranian government can be trusted on ANYTHING???

Michale

Yeah, really.

Iran has not annexed Beirut, Syria or Yemen. Iran trains, supplies and finances militant operations in these countries, but has not annexed them. Meddling is not annexation. As CW has pointed out, Iran is a de facto ally of the US in parts of Iraq. Things can get pretty messy in the ol' Levant

and...

What a surprise! A one day extension of the talks.

Actually, Gallup Poll* shows that Iranians are hurting a lot less since sanctions have eased..

Further, Iran cares much MUCH less about the welfare of the peanut gallery than more civilized nations..

A mushroom cloud over Tel Aviv is going to bother the government of Israel than the masses starving will bother Iran...

In other words, Iran can hold the citizens of western countries hostage... Western countries don't have that option even if they were inclined to put it in those terms..

I would not be surprised to see 4,5,6,7 extensions.

If there were no consequences to the extensions, I would agree with you...

But there WILL be consequences to the extensions... If the form of veto-proof legislation from the US Congress...

Negotiating with these fanatics is pointless.. Anything they WOULD agree to would just be to serve their purposes..

And it's not as if they can be trusted to adhere to any agreement that they WOULD agree to...

The IAEA has clearly stated that Iran is not in compliance with even the most basic PMD disclosures....

What makes you think the Iranian government can be trusted on ANYTHING???

Michale

Diplomatic deadlines are notoriously soft barriers.
As Churchill himself said, "To jaw-jaw is always better than to war-war."

"time works in Iranians favor.."

Nuclear program yes, economic sanctions no. The sanctions hurt, and they hurt a lot and they hurt now. A prototype bomb would be a demonstration of Iranian technical prowess in maybe one or two years, but deliverable weapons would take longer, and eat up a lot more Iranian economy which makes the impact of sanctions even greater. Only the Iranian leadership knows how they evaluate the tradeoff across time. US - Iranian evaluations are probably not zero sum, which makes everything even more complicated. Throw Israels calculus on top to make things even more interesting.

I would not be surprised to see 4,5,6,7 extensions. With a bit of sanction ratcheting from the West with each extension. More daring black ops from Israel, maybe an airstrike, although the risk is high for what would amount to just another delay if all goes well.

"With these negotiations, worse case scenario are mushroom clouds over Tel Aviv and the country of Iran is a shiny new glass parking lot..."

Not just these negotiations. It's been a truism since the 1950's. Experience suggest the probability of the worst case scenario is low, and it won't get any lower if Iran gets on board. Still the incremental risk won't increase by that much....the now normal risk of miscalculation or outright accident. There ought to be a flip sign on the front of the UN building ...25568 days since our last Armageddon. (That's a rough approximation, I'm too lazy to get an exact count).

http://paulklipp.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/days-since-accident-300x191.jpeg

Remember the cold war? It never entirely went away.

Really??

Beruit??

Syria??

Yemen??

Each an example of Iran, at best, exerting it's will...

At worse, a prelude to annexation and/or protectorate status.....

There are more simarities between Munich and Lausanne than there are differences..

At it's core, both are a prime example of the folly of appeasement..

A better choice then was to keep the pressure on Hitler and Nazi Germany.

A better choice now is to keep the pressure on Iran.. Increase the sanctions.. Turn the screws...

I mean, why loosen sanctions when the are finally having the desired effect??

I would also be interested in your thoughts regarding dealing with a regime who executes people for being gay...

Call me silly, but the hysterical Left gets all bent out of shape because a a christian baker won't bake a gay couple a frakin' wedding cake..

Yet, ya'all are supporting a deal with a regime that EXECUTES gay people..

Something does not compute....

Michale

The Munich Agreement. The Mummuu of historical analogies, one size fits all. Flatters a flabby argument, or so it's said. President's have cited it in going to war in Korea, Vietnam and Iraq.

I humbly suggest that the globe trotting owner of this site should write a piece on the MA, which is a lot more complicated and even seamier than most people think it is. It was a land grab, and not just Germany was grabbing. Hello, Poland? Hungary - we see you too! Hitler might have backed down, many of his generals thought they weren't ready to take on France and Britain, but France and Britain really weren't ready to take on Germany either.

Hitler consistently took risks his generals opposed. Militarily speaking, Czechoslovakia is on the wrong side of Germany. Would Britain and France have fared better by accepting an invitation to the Second World War in '38 rather than '39? That's one of those things historians argue about, but either way, if Hitler gambles, Czechoslovakia gets gobbled.

"England has been offered a choice between war and shame. She has chosen shame, and will get war." - Churchill.

True, but Britain also bought valuable time to rearm, survive it's expeditionary debacle and hunker down to engineer ultimate Nazi defeat. Would this have been possible had BOTH France AND Britain had capitulated by '39? War and strategic defeat? What would be the United States military option had a less well prepared Britain sued for peace? No island bridgehead to continental Europe is the option. Shame is bad, strategic defeat is worse.

Fast forwarding to the 21st century, Iran is engaged in an arms race, but not an outright military annexation of somebody's real estate. Should France and Britain have bombed Hitler's armaments industries in '38? That a direct analogy between the Munich Meme and what's going on now with Tehran, but not even Churchill advocated that. As in '38, geography is a key to understanding viable military options.

On the other hand, I could be wrong.... :^/

LAUSANNE, Switzerland (AP) — Wrapping up six days of marathon nuclear talks with mixed results, Iran and six world powers prepared Tuesday to issue a general statement agreeing to continue talks in a new phase aimed at reaching a final agreement to control Iran's nuclear ambitions by the end of June, officials told The Associated Press on Tuesday.

And after intense negotiations, obstacles remained on uranium enrichment, where stockpiles of enriched uranium should be stored, limits on Iran's nuclear research and development and the timing and scope of sanctions relief among other issues.
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/cda4e341054649f2bf027ebf37b93fa3/differences-persist-deadline-day-iran-nuke-talks

Obama's desperation for a deal is bigger than I thought...

I don't think Democrats in Congress are going to give Obama more time...

New sanctions legislation will be sent thru Congress with a veto-proof bi-partisan majority...

You heard it here first...

Michale

Will Obama walk? Probably, if conditions don't change in the last minute. It would play well at home if he did walk. Standing tough.

I completely agree... :D

. The negotiations don't end, they just go longer.

Actually, this would be the 3rd(or maybe the 4th) extension of talks..

It's universally accepted that they will not be extended again..

. Extended haggling will play very well in Israel.

I disagree.. Haggling = Time...

And time works in Iranians favor..

Which is why it's universally accepted that there will be no more time..

The US (and the rest of the West) are in the position of the consumer who has negotiated (haggled)a nice price on a brand new car. Consumer goes to pick up the car, carefully reads the agreement, and notices the salesperson has added $400 worth of undercoating and delivery charges to the bill. Reprehensible, but fully expected. It's an F'IN' CAR DEALERSHIP!!!!, with plastic flags and air driven wiggly men!

The difference being that, in a car negotiation, worse case scenario is that the consumer does not get his new car and the salesman doesn't get his commission...

With these negotiations, worse case scenario are mushroom clouds over Tel Aviv and the country of Iran is a shiny new glass parking lot...

Michale.....

As Spock would say... "interesting."

The US (and the rest of the West) are in the position of the consumer who has negotiated (haggled)a nice price on a brand new car. Consumer goes to pick up the car, carefully reads the agreement, and notices the salesperson has added $400 worth of undercoating and delivery charges to the bill. Reprehensible, but fully expected. It's an F'IN' CAR DEALERSHIP!!!!, with plastic flags and air driven wiggly men!

The wise consumer turns and walks, ignoring any gibberish about "the sales manager." Not that this is the end of the deal. The wise consumer waits for the phone call from the sales person. They still have your number. Wait for 1 or 2 more calls. Inform him/her you don't want undercoating or any charges.... That you are negotiating with X other dealerships. If the salesperson wants the deal, if it's profitable, he/she'll concede. The lower price comes out of the commission. Market forces rule.

I've had this experience on every single new car I've ever purchased from a dealership. I've always gotten the phone call back. Usually the imaginary undercoating and delivery charges disappear. I've done my homework, and I self finance. When it doesn't, I know I've been too aggressive (cheap), but I know what I'm willing to pay. There's always another deal out there. Be patient.

Will Obama walk? Probably, if conditions don't change in the last minute. It would play well at home if he did walk. Standing tough. The negotiations don't end, they just go longer. How long? Who knows? The Iranians know how to haggle. So do we. Extended haggling will play very well in Israel. One thing is sure...the Iranians will make The Call.

I mean, Obama could say to himself:

"Wait a tic... These guys I am trying to deal with EXECUTE people for being gay... These guys sponsor terrorism around the world that have killed THOUSANDS of innocent women, children and men.. These guys are scums of the earth... I don't want to deal with them!!!"

I mean, it could happen, right??

Obama could actually come to his senses??

Right???

Michale

What ya'all think??

Deal or No Deal??

I am not sure.. It's obvious to any political agnostic that Obama is desperate for a deal... I can see him saying, "Look, Ayatollah... I'll drop ALL the sanctions and personally deliver a dozen nukes to your front door if you just sign off on this deal!! Please!! I'm beggin' ya!!!"

So, this frog can jump either way...

I mean, Obama might surprise me and actually show a glimmer of testicular fortitude and walk away...

It could happen...

It's about noon in Lausanne, Switzerland right now. So I guess we'll know in about 12 hours by 1700hrs EDT...

Michale

Iran is realizing just how desperate Obama is for a deal...

Michale

Our generation will have it's LAUSANNE AGREEMENT..

And, from all indications, it's likely that history will repeat itself...

Our current crop of (so-called) leaders obviously haven't learned from the mistakes of their predecessors..

Appeasing tyrants only emboldens tyrants...

Michale

Well, if you hate America's greatest ally in the Middle East more than you distrust the ayatollah, then you probably shouldn't be the President Of The United States....

I'm just sayin......

Michale

That's the US Government supporting Israel.. Treaties and agreements that Obama CAN'T change... Although I would be willing to wager a million quatloos that petulant child-President has told his people to research what he CAN change...

Do you have any evidence that the OBAMA ADMINISTRATION is supporting Israel??

Because, to date, all we see is Obama saying he is going to allow the UN to condemn Israel, etc etc etc... Just because Obama doesn't like Netanyahu and he doesn't like the fact that Obama's minions could sway the election against Bibi...

Michale

"The official disclosure of Israel as a nuclear power is simply one example in a plethora of examples.."

Ah, the document released is not US policy. It is a US funded, non governmental think tank analysis that can support the formulation of US policy. Actually, more like a literature search than an analysis. The paper is 25 years out of date, open sourced and released after a nice soak in the Freedom of Information Act process. The latter is US law. The US has opacity capability too, and has always used it in matters of diplomacy...and pretty much everything else if they can get away with it. There is no opacity gap.

M -62

If you have any evidence that the Obama Administration is still supporting Israel.....

1/3 of US foreign aid goes to Israel. Technology transfer, trade agreements, access to oil supplies to name a few.

"I'm all ears...."
-Ross Perot, 1992 Presidential Debate

:D

Michale

That's the power of no comment. Let your critics argue with each other about petty details. Other middle eastern countries have little incentive to talk about Israel's nukes...why remind your citizens that you are technologically inferior? Clever psychology on Israel's part. Opacity IS a stabilizing factor, and the signature of a stable system is that when you push it, it goes back to the stable position.

No disagreement...

But what does any of that have to do with the fact that, apparently, the US Administration policy is now to not support Israel's opacity??

You have yet to provide any evidence that Obama's policy has not shifted away from supporting Israel and moved towards supporting Israel's enemies...

The official disclosure of Israel as a nuclear power is simply one example in a plethora of examples..

That's been my point the entire discussion..

Michale

I'd look up the links and use the critical content reading skills I was taught in high school. Then I'd Google for a few other reference links and make a cup of coffee, cross reference and synthesize Then I would likely post a reply.

M-59

Israeli ambiguity aka opacity is just good public relations. It doesn't matter how many times they are outed, they can still decline to comment. Since outside sources disagree on details, all press reports appear more speculative than they really are.

That's the power of no comment. Let your critics argue with each other about petty details. Other middle eastern countries have little incentive to talk about Israel's nukes...why remind your citizens that you are technologically inferior? Clever psychology on Israel's part. Opacity IS a stabilizing factor, and the signature of a stable system is that when you push it, it goes back to the stable position.

The fact that Israeli nukes were or were not news is not relevant to the point.

Yes, EVERYONE knows that Israeli's have nukes.. Former President Jimmy Carter made certain of that..

But the ambiguity is part and parcel to a stabilizing factor in the Middle East... It was part and parcel to OUR ALLIES policy..

And Obama just pissed all over our "allies" policy....

In other words, by word and deed, Obama has made it clear that he no longer views Israel as an ally... Obama has placed a buttload of daylight between Israel and the US...

I can't make it any more clear than that...

Michale

What's next??

You'll be quoting HuffPoop???

How would YOU respond if I posted a FoxNews link trying to make a point, TS??

Probably in the exact same manner.. :D

The timing of the release is the damning evidence..

I know, I know.. It's not enough evidence for you...

But then again, NO AMOUNT of evidence is enough evidence....

So, what's the point??

Obama can do no wrong..

Democrats are pure as the driven snow...

Everything evil and bad in the world is Bush's and Republican's fault..

"...and so it goes and so it goes..."
-Billy Joel

Michale

http://mediamatters.org/research/2015/03/27/conservative-medias-fantasy-that-obama-leaked-i/203074

Funny, can't remember hearing anything about it at the time from Fox or Rush or.....anybody. 'Cause Israeli nukes weren't news to anybody paying attention.

Looks like another trial balloon is losing pressure.

Do you understand???

Michale

No matter how partisans will spin it, the Obama Administration has shown amazing incompetence in dealing with the region..

This is fact whether anyone here wants to admit it or not...

Michale

I mean, seriously...

Step back from the partisan divide for a brief moment and look at things logically and rationally...

Aren't the odds utterly astronomical that Bush would have done everything WRONG and Obama has done everything right??? So astronomical that they defy calculation??

So, either Obama is not as perfect as ya'all claim (and, conversely, Bush is not Satan-incarnate) or else we are living in a fantasy reality...

Once again.. Employing Occam's Razor, what's the more logical possibility??

Michale

It's a betrayal... You can bet that, for those in the Israeli government who count on the US discretion...

It hurt.. It hurt big time...

As for us on THIS side of the pond??

It's just one more indication that Obama is putting a LOT of daylight between his administration and Israel....

Michale

Doubly amazing when one considers that, during the Bush years, it was ALWAYS fire.... Every bit of smoke was caused by a Bush fire...

Yet ALL this smoke and not one single Obama fire...

It's downright gabberflasting... :D

Michale

Uh... Yea.. You don't recall all the vitriol coming from the White House when news of the invitation became public??

I am sure the backchannel chatter had Obama telling Netanyahu to refuse the invitation or else the US would publically confirm the existence of the Israeli nuclear arsenal..

Bibi told Obama to frak off and there you have it..

But I get it.. No fire.. Just a bunch of smoke...

As far as the Middle East??

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-says-it-wont-rule-out-building-nuclear-weapons-10139229.html

The MidEast Nuclear Arms Race begins...

Again, just a bunch of smoke....

Amazing that there is all this smoke and not one single Obama fire whatsoever...

Michale

Oh I see, Obama was taking revenge on Congress (issuing the invite) and/or Netanyahu (for accepting it). Sort a preemptive strike. How dare you even intend to invite and/or speak. But, if Obama is trying to make those points, why was there no fanfare regarding the release? Nobody picked up on it until late March. That's like punishing the dog a week after he/she threatens to pee on the rug.

The other thing is that punishment is supposed to hurt. All the stuff in the report was 25 years old and well known. Israel has never denied it has nukes, it simply refuses to confirm or deny. It can still do this...and the Islamic states can still pretend or not pretend to notice. Nothing of substance has changed, just a confirmation that our intelligence agencies aren't clueless.

One more thing. I noticed the report was never even a classified document. Distribution was controlled, that was it. Very hard to make a case you can't release it.

Should read:

But what IS out of the ordinary, what IS unheard of, what has NEVER happened is that a US Administration has PUBLICALLY confirmed the existence of Israel's Nuclear arsenal...

My bust...

Michale

All in all, 3 years is nothing out of the ordinary, especially for requests involving intelligence

But what IS out of the ordinary, what IS unheard of, what has NEVER happened is that a US Administration has confirmed the existence of Israel's Nuclear arsenal...

This coupled with the timing.... There is only one rational and logical explanation...

But I get it..

It's all just smoke.. No fire... {{wink, wink}} :D

Michale

http://www.foia.gov/data.html

over the period 2008-14 about 6% of moderate to complex DOD cases take longer that 400 days to process.

Some subdivisions of DOD take much longer...40% Defense Intelligence Agency cases take longer than 400 days. It seems likely the FOIA request in question went through DIA wicket...but we all know that DOD, being a govt agency knows no logic :)

Some cases take a lot longer to process than others. DIA has 10 cases unprocessed after 7 years.

Processing time doesn't mean the plaintiff wins. Appeals typically take months to many years, DIA taking the longest.

All in all, 3 years is nothing out of the ordinary, especially for requests involving intelligence

You heard it here first.. :D

Michale

At least Reid called it far enough ahead of time to give his Party a chance to retain his seat...

That's honorable..

At least as "honorable" as a Party ideologue can be.. :D

Michale

Harry Reid Says He Won’t Seek Re-Election
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/28/us/politics/senator-harry-reid-retire.html?smid=tw-bna&_r=1

Didn't you call that, CW??? :D

Michale

If this deal goes thru, it all but guarantees that Israel, with Saudi Arabia's assistance, WILL attack Iran..

And THAT will lead to a full regional war...

Which is rather humorously ironic when ya look at it. Pushing this bad deal thru will ignite the very war that deal proponents claim the deal is designed to prevent..

In effect, deal proponents are supporting the instigation of the very war they claim to want to prevent..

All because no one has the testicular fortitude to stand up to Obama and say, "Dood.. Yer frakin' up.. Big time!!"

Michale

Interesting negotiating technique Obama has...

Give the Iranians everything they want...

What could POSSIBLY go wrong... :^/

Obama is so desperate for a deal to soothe his savaged ego, he'll throw the entire region into a nuclear tailspin...

Ya remember my reasoning for voting Democrat back in 2008???

"If they frack up, how much damage can they do??"
-Michale, Presidential Election 2008

Well, I guess I am finding out because he is doing the maximum amount of damage possible...

Michale

I mean, what are the odds of that actually happening??

Every scandal against the Obama Administration and NONE, not ONE SINGLE ONE of them has any merit whatsoever...

If we employ Occam's Razor, what is the more likely possibility??

1. That EVERY scandal to hit Obama and/or his administration is nothing but overblown partisan rhetoric and there is NEVER anything to ANY of them??

or

B. That those who always make the claim of 'overblown partisan rhetoric' are responding as politically ideological partisans and not as politically agnostic persons??

Employing Occam's Razor, the answer is clear...

Wouldn't you agree??

Michale

Oh, come on... Next you'll be wanting to clarify what the definition of 'is' is..

No disagreement on that.

Well all right... Now we're getting some where..

First, the release occurred in February, so it's not Revenge on Net-on-you-know-who.

Uhhh.. It was also in Februrary that it was learned that Netanyahu was invited to speak to Congress..

The timing is so exact that there is no other conclusion save that it was a knee-jerk retaliation from Obama..

Third, Obama didn't release it. It was released as a result of a three year old freedom information lawsuit requesting information on Israeli nuclear technology. .

Yea?? The guy who requested and sued for the release was amazed that the US actually released it..

He said it was the first time that a US Administration has actually confirmed that Israel was a nuclear power..

A three year lag is about par for the course

Yea?? Prove it.. :D

ll,in all, it's just more Foxy Boxing, lazy journalism, whipping up the reactionary base. Situation normal.

Once again, it's amazing that there is always NOTHING to anything that comes out against Obama..

Millions and millions and millions of episodes of smoke, but NEVER a fire...

"Fascinating"...
-Spock

You can mitigate and equivocate and define the meaning of 'is' all you want..

But it's clear from the facts that this is nothing more than our petulant child-president throwing a tantrum because he couldn't get his way...

Michale

First, the release occurred in February, so it's not Revenge on Net-on-you-know-who.

Second, the material released is from a 25 year old OPEN SOURCE STUDY. In other words, all the material comes from unclassified sources freely available 25 yrs ago, it's just neatly edited and collated into one 129 page pdf. But the document released was classified you will say. That is so. Simply putting a lot of unclassified stuff in one one document can result in the synthesized documented being classified. SOunds crazy, but happens all the time in the grand ol' analysis biz. "It's like the transubstantiation of Christ Dougal. There's no rational explanation, no discernible change, you just have to stand in line and have faith." From - "A Few Good Priests," a never completed episode of Father Ted.

Third, Obama didn't release it. It was released as a result of a three year old freedom information lawsuit requesting information on Israeli nuclear technology. A three year lag is about par for the course.

Here is the sum total of info on the Israeli N bomb program. Have your notebooks and decoder rings ready.

"The SORBO and the Dimonal/Beer Shrva facilities are the equivalent of our Los Alamos. Lawrence Livermore and Oak Ridge National Laboratories. The
SOREQ center run the full nuclear gamut of activities from engineering, administration and non-destructive testing to electro-optics, pulsed power, processes, engineering and chemistry and nuclear research and safety. This is the technology required for weapons design and fabrication."

a few lines later

"As far as nuclear technology is concerned the Israelis are roughly where the US was in the fission weapon field in 1955 to 1960."

"It should be noted that the Israelis are developing the kind of codes which will enable
them to make hydrogen bombs. That is, codes which
detail fission and fusion processes on
microscopic and macroscopic levels. However,
it is doubtful they have the codes to
completely design such devices as the involve more
chaotic radiation transport and are
multidimensional. The Israelis do not yet have the
capability to carry out these kinds of
calculations."

All this was widely published in trade journals and even news magazines of the 1970s and 80s. It would be hard to rule against releasing this kind of stuff. It's like outing Jim Nabors in 2015, or noting your great aunt has hair on her upper lip. We know, we've known this since the '70s and '80s, even earlier...so now you have to go and bring this up.

Final fourth point. Much is made about the fact that NATO allies have been redacted in the release. Nothing sinister about it. The suit asked for info on Israel, not the allies. Why cheese 'em off?

All,in all, it's just more Foxy Boxing, lazy journalism, whipping up the reactionary base. Situation normal.

"that still means millions and millions and MILLIONS of voters leaving the Dem Party...

Whoa, whoa watch where you're pointing that rhetoric pal. Millions and million and millions of voters is at least 6 millon, which is more than all the registered Jewish voters in the United States.

M - 33

"But if you ask a poll question closer to the point I am making, "How attached are you to the State Of Israel vis a vis seeing Israel overrun by terrorists or attacked by a nuclear armed Iran??" I would be willing to wager that the "very or somewhat" would approach 100%..."

No disagreement on that. I think the equivalent question regarding Great Britain it would approach 100.% I think if you asked American Jews the equivalent for Germany it approach 75% - 85% if the you sample those under the age of 65. Almost no American likes to see a country overrun by terrorists or nuked. I mean really, the US went to aid of invaded France twice, and we don't even like the French very much.

What about MEET THE SPARTANS?? :D

Michale

Using your example, the security issues facing Israel is the mountain you are about to crash into..

The social and economic issues are the landing gear that won't extend...

In several hours, that landing gear issue MIGHT be a real danger...

But the mountain in front of you is, by far, the much MUCH bigger threat...

If yer pulverized into the side of the mountain that will solve the landing gear issue most definitively...

Wouldn't you agree??

Michale

US Declassifies Document Revealing Israel's Nuclear Program

Obama revenge for Netanyahu's Congress talk? 1987 report on Israel's top secret nuclear program released in unprecedented move.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/193175#.VRQt2fl4rXw

Please tell me again how there is no daylight between the Obama Administration and Israel??

In all the temper tantrums by our President, I seem to have forgotten..

Michale

Awww crap!! :D

lso consider Judea post Hellenistic Occupation and subsequent acceptance of client status (by the Maccabees of all people) to an up and coming Rome. It did end well.

I see your point and it's a good one..

But I think the more accurate point is this..

If you are facing 2 armed assailants and one has a .357 in your face and the other has an M-16 Full Automatic with his back to you....

Which is the bigger threat??

For Israel, the terrorist/nuclear threat is the .357 in the face and the socio/economic/koom-bye-ya threat is the M-16 with his back turned...

Michale

I am also constrained to point out that the poll question does not really address the point I am trying to make..

For example..

If you ask American Jews, "How attached are you to the State Of Israel??" it's reasonable that 69% would respond "very or somewhat"...

But if you ask a poll question closer to the point I am making, "How attached are you to the State Of Israel vis a vis seeing Israel overrun by terrorists or attacked by a nuclear armed Iran??" I would be willing to wager that the "very or somewhat" would approach 100%...

Wouldn't you agree??

Michale

Consider the history of the militant apartheid State of Sparta and the dangers of over emphasizing military threats vs other existential threats. Watching The 300 or other Hollywood epics does not count.

Also consider Judea post Hellenistic Occupation and subsequent acceptance of client status (by the Maccabees of all people) to an up and coming Rome. It did end well.

One thing I learned in flight school - you have to actively manage everything. Hyper focus on one hazard will get you killed just as surely as daydreaming. This applies to life in general.

I disagree, but I readily concede my experiences are IN Israel (so I am extrapolating from that) and are somewhat dated..

However, having said that, even if we agree to the 70% (rounded up for clarity sake) that still means millions and millions and MILLIONS of voters leaving the Dem Party...

Put another way...

If 70% of American Jews vote GOP, I don't even think that the millions of fresh new minted Dem voters will save the Dem Party..

Agreed??

Michale

Change ALL to "69%" and LOVE to "very or somewhat attached to" and you arrive at one of those "facts" that you talk so much about.

Besides the topic "divinity of Jesus," the closest thing to consensus among authorities on Judaism (rabbis) is who is a Jew. Virtually all agree it's handed down thru the X chromosome. The State of Israel agrees with that. Move to other topics and consensus breaks down rather quickly, roughly along generational lines, and Orthodox, Conservative, Reform or Mostly Non-Observant status.

If you want empirical evidence of how much consensus there is among American Jews on the subject of Israel, wrangle yourself an invite to a sedar. It's not that hard, but make sure that at least 3 generations are represented, preferably more. Wait for the 4th cup of wine to go down. Compare and contrast the views Israel along the gradient from WWII generation thru the boomers to the college girl with pink hair and a tattoo of great grandmother's camp serial number on her forearm. Expect surprises.

A link to a summary of the poll numbers, which contains another much more detailed link.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/poll-american-jews-identifying-as-more-cultural-less-religious/2013/09/30/249ce2f4-29db-11e3-8ade-a1f23cda135e_story.html

US Administration officials are complaining that Israel was spying on the LET'S GIVE IRAN NUCLEAR WEAPONS talks.

How does the US Administration know this??

Because the US Administration was spying on Israel!! :D

The chutzpah of the Obama Administration is mind-blowing...

Michale

So why would you expect American Jews to be monolithic?

I am sure there are outliers.. But there is a common thread that all American jews hold dear and that is the love of Israel..

Any threat to Israel that is the fault of the US Administration (ANY US Administration) will cause American Jews to band together, much as the entirety of the US banded together in the aftermath of 9/11..

Let me turn your question around..

When the US sides with Palestinian terrorists AGAINST Israel at the UN, when the White House gives Palestinian terrorists the means to destroy Israel, when Obama hands Iran nuclear weapons on a silver platter......

How could you NOT expect American Jews to desert the Dem Party en-masse??

TS,

Israel is a democracy, but its governments are highly unstable coalitions that can collapse quickly and require new elections. Forming a coalition is a matter of wheeling and dealing in smoke filled rooms. Forecasting Israeli politics is very difficult.

And yet, I called it did I not?? It's not that difficult as you might think..

One just has to think logically and use a little common sense.. :D

Granted, it doesn't ALWAYS work out, but more often than not, it's dead on ballz accurate.. :D

It's pointless to emphasize just one at the expense of the others.

I can tell you why it's NOT pointless to emphasize one over the others..

As in the US, National Security trumps all considerations..

Because economic problems, demographic problems, social problems, all those problems disappear if your country is destroyed...

The overriding threat to Israel is a military threat...

Which is why the people of Israel overwhelmingly, by commission or omission, voted Netanyahu back into power...

Because Israelis realize that cost of living and economic problems pale considerably when one considers Tel Aviv or Haifa as a smoking nuclear crater...

But I'm curious...

Ya'all are ignoring the issue of Netanyahu's refusal to endorse a Two State solution in the here and now..

Is that because ya'all agree that it's ridiculous for Netanyahu to even CONSIDER such a solution??

Michale

of 3% is not going to shift national politics very much. The Republican/AIPAC/Netanyahu alliance is all about fund raising, especially bundled pack money. Increasingly, a lot of that PAC money comes from right wing evangelical Christians. Not all Jews wear beards, but some AIPAC Jews are Beards who bundle donations from those who wish to remain anonymous. All legal, if not exactly Kosher.

Israel faces multiple existential threats. They manage the military one pretty well. Israel faces a demographic threat that is much more intractable in the long run. Demographics is the Palestinian's best card. Economics is another genuine existential threat. The egalitarian Israel of the founders is long gone. Modern Israel is an oligarchy, 20 families own most of the economy, and 21% of Israeli's live below poverty line. Costs of living are high and climbing. When quality of life declines, more people emigrate, especially young talented people. Immigrants, especially young talented ones don't replace them. Relevance is another long term existential threat. If Israel doesn't reflect Jewish values (which transcend religious practice or lack thereof) than a US propped up Israel becomes a quasi 51st apartheid US state. An isolated state, diplomatically and economically isolated. Irrelevant and ultimately destined to wither.

It's pointless to emphasize just one at the expense of the others. That's Netanyahu's game, and it's politically expedient. It's not good leadership, but to be fair, most of Israeli society isn't doing all that much better. Good leaders are hard to find.

Israel is a democracy, but its governments are highly unstable coalitions that can collapse quickly and require new elections. Forming a coalition is a matter of wheeling and dealing in smoke filled rooms. Forecasting Israeli politics is very difficult.

A five to ten percent change in US Jewish voting patterns seems highly unlikely to me, but that's not politically very important. Jews make up 3% of the US population and 10%

For penance, I think you should write a column sometime on why Biden should be the next President of the United States. Heh.

When I read that, I just thought that I'm pretty sure that the Canadians have the date right.

But, by the time I read that, I was still recovering from another cheap shot on Biden. Ahem.

:-)

I'm surprised you didn't complain about that cheap shot on Canadians, re: Thanksgiving. Heh. I did wonder, when I wrote that, "What will LizM think?" But then I went ahead and wrote it anyway...

:-)

-CW

I don't use the word lightly, but Father Ted fits the description of downright subversive TV. When you think of the Irish audience it was pitched towards...

I loved the housekeeper character, in the background.

"Ah, g'wan, willya have a cuppa tea then? Ah, g'wan..."

-CW

Like other countries, Israel is a democracy. Thus, it has a full spectrum of views within it. There are hard righties, hard lefties, and moderates. The hard righties are ascendant right now, but keep in mind Likud won 30 seats -- 25% -- of the parliament. That means that 75% of Israeli voters didn't vote for them. Granted, some of those 75% voted for other rightwing parties, but Israel is not any sort of monolithic political society.

So why would you expect American Jews to be monolithic? My guess, if there's a shift in Jewish voting in 2016, it will be on the order of 5-10%, at best. That's a big shift, but it still would give the majority of the Jewish vote to Democrats. Many Jews are horrified at the GOP's stance on social issues here in America, and that's a bigger influence on their vote than posturing on Palestine.

-CW

Does anyone have any FACTS to show that the Palestinian government is not a terrorist organization??

Does anyone have any FACTS to show that the Palestinian government does not have a mandate that calls for the destruction of the State Of Israel??

"Anyone??? Anyone??? Buehler??"

{cchhhiiiirrrrrppppppp} {{chiirrrrppppppp}}

Michale

As only Jon Stewart can tell it.. :D

A Magnificent, Complicated, Clouded, Controversial Story
http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/1jh7tu/a-magnificent--complicated--clouded--controversial-story

Let's face the facts people..

Obama tried to make the Berghdahl story a win to cover up some bonehead mistake..

And THAT became an even BIGGER bonehead mistake...

That's what comes from having an amateur as POTUS...

Michale

"Bowe Bergdahl, once missing U.S. soldier, charged with desertion
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2015/03/25/bowe-bergdahl-once-missing-u-s-soldier-charged-with-desertion/?hpid=z1

Obama's White House is, once again, on the receiving end of an unmitigated and unequivocal PR disaster....

Once again, we are faced with the White House spin on one hand and reality and facts on the other...

Despite Obama's most fervent attempts to initiate undue command influence, facts and reality win out...

Michale

It's not what "I'M selling"...

It's the facts..

Now, if what you are saying is that there are jewish voters who are buying the BS that Obama and the some Democrats are selling, then I would agree with you..

But that number is few and shrinking...

Why??

Because reality and the facts are staring them in the face...

And the facts are that the Palestinian government is a terrorist government (as designated by the US State Department) and no amount of spin will change the fact that Obama wants Israel to give a state to a terrorist government..

And no Jewish person, no AMERICAN would agree that THAT is a good thing...

"These are the facts. And they are indisputable."
-Captain Jack Ross, A FEW GOOD MEN

As an aside, I bet if one were to research it, they would discover that THAT movie quote is probably the most quoted here in Weigantia... :D

Michale

Some Jewish Voters already buy what you're selling, the majority don't. Anticipate little if any shift.

Great fundraiser for AIPAC to use on right wing evangelical donors. It's all about the fund raising, not the ballot box. That a simple fact.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eT9K0TAfiIQ

Not one for sitcoms since TWO AND A HALF MEN went to hell....

But I gotta admit. That's pretty funny.. :D

Michale

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eT9K0TAfiIQ

Best quote:

"What would you say to a cup of tea?"

"Feck off cup!"

Don't confuse the AIPAC lobby with American Jewish voters.

Oh I am not...

No Jewish American voter in their right mind would think that a Palestinian state is viable in the here and now..

I mean, seriously.. Look at it.. Look at what Obama is proposing..

Obama is proposing that Israel gives a physical state to a government whose mandate is to DESTROY the State Of Israel...

Now, you tell me...

What leader in their right mind would deem that to be acceptable??

Israel is not blocking the path to peace..

Netanyahu is not blocking the path to peace..

Palestinians who support terrorism and support the annihilation of the State Of Israel.....

THOSE are the people who are blocking the path to peace..

And THOSE are the people who Obama insists that Netanyahu makes peace with...

On what planet in the entire universe would that be reasonable???

If Obama sides with the terrorists against Israel in the UN, Democrats will lose the Jewish vote..

That's not an AIPAC talking point.

That is a simple fact...

Michale

Well, I dunno...

Give us a plan that the world deems "reasonable" and we can discuss it..

But the current plan is nothing but a path to a nuclear armed Iran...

Michale

Don't confuse the AIPAC lobby with American Jewish voters. Netanyahu is underwater with respect to American Jews: roughly 30% according to most polls. A majority of American Jews are offended by Netanyahu's meddling in American politics - and are also offended by the notion of an apartheid Jewish State. Roughly 80% of the American Jewish demographic favors a nuclear arms agreement with Iran. Votes, campaign contributions, still not exactly the same thing in the United States.

But they are going to lose the Jewish vote and lose it big time...

Michale

Of unless you consider the Obama Administration totally and unequivocally throwing Israel under the bus with the announcement that the White House will side with Palestinian terrorists against Israel at the UN...

Other than that... :^/

Michale

Thanks for the link, great photo. The "Crusader" is in the back. In front (L-to-R), the nun, unidentified man with no feet and no right hand, and unidentified woman.

Both the Crusader and the middle guy had no feet visible. This was due to the standard size of coffins back then -- if you were too tall, they'd just lop your feet off and chuck them in under you (no "open casket" funerals back then, obviously).

The nun is said to be over 100 years old when she died. The missing hand on the guy could have been accident, disease, or punishment (stealing, very Medieval justice...). But nobody really knows. Could be he was a reformed criminal who became a priest or something, it is speculated.

The "Crusader" myth came about because the guy's legs are crossed. This was a common way to bury Crusaders (their own legs "making the sign of the Cross"), so the myth sprung up. However, normally Crusaders are buried with their ankles/shins crossed, and this guy's thighs were crossed. No weapon (Crusaders were buried with their swords, normally), either, but that could have been snuck off to the pawn shop (or the equivalent) a few centuries back.

The "Crusader" was like 6'6" tall, exceedingly unusual back then (normal height for males was probably around 5 feet -- bad diet in childhood, mostly). So the crossed legs could have been just getting him all to fit (even with his feet chopped off) into the coffin. Sorry to be so morbid, but that's the truth of it.

The vaults were tiny -- not too many of them at all. At first, the only ones buried there were nuns and priests, but later they sold crypts to those with the money. An Earl is buried there, as well as two Fenian rebels (brothers), from an earlier failed revolution (there were a LOT of those in Irish history).

But as for the "housekeeping," you're right -- they just stacked up the coffins in the crypts, higgledy-piggledy, and the older ones on the bottom would occasionally just disintegrate. The mummies were found when some of the older coffins wore out -- there were dozens of other coffins down there which could also contain mummies due to the special circumstances of the atmosphere down there.

OK, your Father Ted quote was hilarious! Anyone with access, I STRONGLY recommend this show, as it is the funniest take on religion in Ireland I've ever seen, bar none. This is laugh-out-loud-roll-around-on-the-carpet-my-ribs-are-aching funny, folks.

I got a T-shirt I'll post a photo of later, of the older priest and the word "DRINK!"... thought you'd appreciate that one.

akadjian -

OK, you win the prize for best caption! Heh...

Paula -

Yeah, someone gave me the Tey book, and I found it fascinating. It's one of a series of a British detective, but for the whole book he's laid up in the hospital (or, being British, I should say "in hospital"). So he digs into the Richard III mystery, following clues in old sources. Only book I've ever read that is a crossover between detective story and what historical research is like. Anyway, like I say, it's pretty convincing. Shakespeare was the original political "spin doctor"... or Joseph Goebbels, take your pick....

We got here too late for the Terry Pratchatt media stuff, I think.

LizM -

Hey, sorry, but I did give him a MIDOTW not too long ago...

:-)

-CW

Shocking. Positively shocking.

Has there been any references to Terry Prachett's death?

Interesting how they've imported some of our traditions though, like parades and awesome hats and greenwear (love the pic btw! It makes me want to say "They're always after me Lucky Charms").

Glad you're having an awesome time in the Old Country.

-David.

p.s. Oh Joe Biden, you wacky guy you.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7077/7170166793_ed18f98e76_b.jpg

History or indifferent housekeeping? You decide. As an indifferent housekeeper about to tackle The Spring Cleaning of the Garage I understand how this can happen. Things pile up, containers disintegrate. Any Weigantian need a slightly mummified Aerodyne Exercise Bike?

From the St. M's homepage:

"Please note that occasionally tours of the crypt are cancelled to accommodate religious services."

From Father Ted (pure genius sit com):

Dougal: I'm no good at judging the size of crowds Ted, but I'd say there's about seventeen million of them out there

"I don't care who you are, that right thar was funny as hell, I tell yoo what!!"
-Larry The Cable Guy

:D

Michale

What with all the liming and dessication going on the skin probably is a kind of parchment. Too small to write a declaration on, but it will make someone a fine souvenir if tourists keep pickin' at it. The methane reference may just be a 650 year old "pull me finger" joke.

While the knight couldn't have fought in any of the better sort of crusades, he was old enough to have fought in the Crusade of Alexandria (1390) or Crusade of Nicopolis (1396). He would have been a bit old for the Hussite Wars 1420-1431, but those were technically crusades, too, presumably waged against Hussies instead of Turks. Probably just a Brian Williams/Bill O'Riley sort of thing.