Fair enough...

But I am constrained to point out that what he said THEN was diametrically opposite to what he said BEFORE his disagreement with Obama...

Even if one disregards Brennan's words, there is enough empirical evidence that the torture of 3 HVTs produced actionable intel that directly lead to the demise of Obama Bin Laden and also stopped a 9/11 style attack on the US West Coast..

So, the question as to whether torturing 3 mass murderers was "worth it" is adequately answered..

As I pointed out, this particular question is moot because even if you (and those who think as you) were absolutely and unequivocally convinced that torture did work as intended, ya'all would still be against it...

So it seems silly to argue this particular point..

It's like before when someone asked me to provide evidence of a point I was making... I pointed out that, even if such evidence is provided, it won't change anyone's mind, so why bother??

It doesn't make much sense to argue a periphery point if it won't change anyone's mind.. :D

On the other hand...

"TO THE JOURNEY."
-Ensign Harry Kim, STAR TREK Voyager, EndGame

:D

Michale
201

************* Point of Clarification *************

Just for the record, here is what Director Brennan said the other day after the release of the torture report at his press conference with respect to what was knowable, in his opinion, about the effectiveness of "EITs":

"The detention and interrogation program produced useful intelligence that helped the United States thwart attack plans, capture terrorists, and save lives.

"It is for these reasons that I fully support the president's decision to prohibit the use of EITs."

There can be disagreement about what is actually "knowable" or not about the effectiveness of EITs but I just wanted to leave the record here clear about what Director Brennan said about it.

If they make questionable, totally un-provable and blatantly agenda-driven statements like that??

Yea, I would question their intelligence and experience..

But, let me see their statements and I'll decide.. :D

Michale
192

Al-Qaeda...

Actually I was going off opinions of ex military intelligence people who worked at these places, but you are welcome to question their intelligence and experience...

How long will it take the corporate media to bury this story for good? I don't think they'll let this icky stuff ruin christmas for everybody.

This was never going to be anything more than a Democrat Party One Last Kick In The Bush Balls Before They Are Thrown Out Of Office...

Michale
191

Now, you COULD conduct a systematic survey of surviving terrorists concerning their experience-based conclusions about the utility/morality of torture..

And you know what you would get??

The Democrat Report... :D

Michale
190

Has anybody conducted a systematic survey of surviving US POWs concerning their experience based conclusions about the utility/morality of torture? As far as I can determine, no.

It's not relevant to the current discussion..

Terrorists are not under the protection of the Geneva Conventions...

POWs are...

Apples and Alligators...

Michale
189

Perhaps it is I who should revisit the Brenner presser ... :)

Damn!!! There goes one line of argument! :D

I was actually thinking about that on the way home.. Progressives argue themselves silly that torture is not effective, even though it has been PROVEN to be so...

But the point is that even if they knew for a fact that torture was effective, they STILL would be against it..

So why make the argument?? :D

Indeed, the efficacy of torture is not at all relevant to the discussion I want to have.

You want it to be a morality issue.. I get that...

But it can only be a morality issue if it's a black and white issue..

But it's not.

It's a buttload of shades of gray....

Michale
188

You are incorrect..

Brennan said it was UNKNOWABLE if intel could have been obtained by other means..

I would show you the link, but I know how you feel about those. :D

Michale
187 MAN DOWN!!! MAN DOWN!!!

:D

Says the guy who buys the Democrat report hook, line and sinker..

A report that followed the ROLLING STONES method of investigation...

Don't talk to ANYONE relevant to the issue.. :D

Michale
186

Point of clarification...

I think you need to revisit Brenners presser ...

He said that useful intel was gained from the interrogation of detainees who, at some point during their interrogation, had been subjected to torture - well, his preferred term is EITs ... whatever) but, that it was, in his opinion, unknowable as to whether that useful intel was gained as a direct result of the EITs.

Out of the tens, if not HUNDREDS of thousands of terrorists that we have killed and captured, we tortured....

THREE

.000000000001% of the scumbags were tortured for a GREAT treasure trove of intel...

Seriously???

You expect we should lose sleep over THAT!!??

Michale
186

Such a premise implies that, if we HADN'T tortured scumbag terrorists that Al Qaeda would be at a loss to find out how to motivate recruitment of new terrorists...

I have too much respect for your intellect to even contemplate that you would buy into such utter felgercarp... :D

So, to answer your question...

Since it's obvious to anyone with more than two brain cells to rub together that AQ would have been able to recruit new terrorists regardless.....

The answer to your question is "YES"...

The intel gleaned was well worth it...

Michale
185

No one is talking "time sensitive intel gathering" which is why it's senseless to contradict something that no one is talking about..

Uh...maybe because Obama signed Executive Order 13491 two days after he was sworn in?

An executive order can be undone by a future POTUS..

If DiFi was really THAT concerned, she would have immortalized that concern in legislation that only Congress (in theory) could change...

Was the intel from torture worth the absolutely fantastic recruiting tool torture turned out to be for al qaeda?

Who says that it was a "absolutely fantastic recruiting tool"??

Al-Qaeda...

You taking your cue terrorists?? :D

Michale
184

Point of clarification...

When CIA Director Brennan stated it was "Unknowable", he wasn't referring to whether or not torture info stopped attacks, made capture/kill of terrorists possible and saved lives..

Brennan stated unequivocally that intel gleaned from subjects that were tortured did, in fact, accomplish ALL those things...

Director Brennan was asked if the intel obtained could have been obtained thru other means.

It was THAT that Director Brennan stated was "unknowable"..

Just wanted to make sure we were on the same page...

Michale
183

Which makes me wonder:

Has anybody conducted a systematic survey of surviving US POWs concerning their experience based conclusions about the utility/morality of torture? As far as I can determine, no.

Uh...maybe because Obama signed Executive Order 13491 two days after he was sworn in?

That simply proves what I have been saying...

That you don't know what you are talking about? :D

I've seen less spin in a centrifuge...

It's funny with all the criticism of the torture report from the right no one that I have read has been able to contradict that torture really doesn't work for time sensitive Intel gathering. You know, one of the major reasons it has been pushed on us...

Of course they got intel from the enhanced interrogations. You could serve over a hundred detainees tea and crumpets in a five star hotel for a few years and get "actionable intel" from them. And according to some of the most successful integrators from WWII and beyond, you would likely get more and better intel from the tea and crumpets path than the salt pit route. Even the CIA agrees, or did in the 80's when it published reports and guidelines about the subject.

Some of the criticism from ex-CIA officials is just pathetic. The report specifically calls them out for lying to congress and executive branch and they want us to believe them when they say it did work but nudge, nudge , wink, wink, we can't show you the proof because it's classified? Bullshit. It's all out in the open now, a little more gas on the fire ain't going to do shit. Put up or shut up! Torture is too important an issue to just believe these people without any verifiable facts to work from.

Then there is the 800lb gorilla in the room that no one from the right want's to address. Was the intel from torture worth the absolutely fantastic recruiting tool torture turned out to be for al qaeda? Did they save more lives than they got killed by the huge surge in ranks al qaeda got by using things like torture and abu ghraib to help recruit? Would we even be dealing with ISIS without the extra militants that torture brought in to the region?

I just made another donation to CW.COM... Let's everyone go do the same!! :D

A kinder, gentler Michale awaits.... :D

Michale
182

In 2007, the Democrat Congress sent a bill to President Bush outlawing any type of torture and ordered the CIA to adhere to the Army Field Manual to conduct interrogations..

President Bush vetoed it...

If Feinstein was SOOO concerned and SOOO worried about how the US is perceived in the world, why didn't she send that bill to Obama???

That simply proves what I have been saying...

Democrats are great at lip service against torture and enhanced interrogations..

But, behind the scenes they support the actions...

Michale
180

And, with no spin whatsoever, Charles nails the landing!!!

10.0.....10.0.....10.0.....10.0

Michale
178

Who would you prosecute??

Your Democrat leaders who were fully briefed on and approved the programs??

Just like in the run-up to Iraq War II, your Democrats have as much blood on their hands as you like to claim Republicans have...

Something about a goose and a gander comes to mind..

Michale
176

Well, that's not entirely accurate..

Last week or so my back has been killing me something fierce... Wish my healthcare plan didn't have such an impossibly high deductible... :^/

But, that has nothing to do with my conscience.. I can honestly say that my conscience is completely clear...

Michale
173

Only for those who have something to feel guilty about.

Me??

I sleep like a baby each and every night..

Michale
170

I see your point.

There is very little, if anything else, that John McCain has to say these days that I find credible in the very least."

Right. We're essentially in agreement. I'm just saying that his lack of credibility on everything else makes me wonder if he'd abuse his credibility on this issue. You asked the right question. Why didn't he call for prosecutions?

"I was implying that ALL who are engaged in carrying out the torture and who are directing that that course of action be taken should be subject to prosecution."

Right and I was implying that people don't usually have themselves prosecuted. I think there's plenty of guilt to go around. There's also an awful lot of lying going on and it's impossible to know if anyone is telling the truth unless that person gets sent to the gulag.

He is comparing apples and alligators...

Torturing during wartime enemy soldiers in violation of the Geneva Conventions (Apples) is a lot different than torturing terrorists for intel (Alligators)....

Michale
169

There is very little, if anything else, that John McCain has to say these days that I find credible in the very least.

I was implying that ALL who are engaged in carrying out the torture and who are directing that that course of action be taken should be subject to prosecution. I have also said that the penalty for engaging in the use of torture may be mitigated, to a lesser or greater extent, depending on the circumstances involved.

Of course, we can only hope to know what amounts to less than the tip of iceberg with respect to what the CIA and the rest of the intelligence gathering community is doing.

What we do know and what we can say with certainty based on how events have unfolded over the course of the last 13 years or so since 9/11 is that the collection of good intelligence has been far less than optimal, the consequences for which have been devastating to the national security and global reputation of the United States.

Having been tortured, he speaks with authority, but he's a sanctimonious hypocrite and a liar too. Who knows what his angle is?

". . . would face prosecution for their crime in a court of law."

This would imply that the spooks aren't calling the shots, not to mention the strong possibility that the torture is ongoing and they all know it. That part is redacted and classified.

"Now, let us reassert the contrary proposition: that is it essential to our success in this war that we ask those who fight it for us to remember at all times that they are defending a sacred ideal of how nations should be governed and conduct their relations with others -- even our enemies."

On this issue, Senator McCain has more credibility in the tip of his little finger than all of us here, put together, and then some!

But, I wish he would have added to the paragraph above words to express a certain reality that anyone who would engage in the use of torture and thereby violate the laws and constitution of the United States of America would face prosecution for their crime in a court of law.

I agree with Chris and Senator McCain that this issue is a moral one but, it is also a legal one that should come with all attending legal consequences.

Otherwise, what is the point of making such a strong statement as Senator McCain did? And, indeed, what is the point of releasing such a strong report as that released by the Democrats on the Senate Intelligence Committee?

- Sanctimonious hypocrite John McCain

“This is not torture. I’ll tell you what is torture. Torture is what we’ve done to the veterans at the VA hospitals. Torture is what we’ve done by having the IRS go after conservative groups.”

- Jerry Boykin, senior Bush Defense Department official and current sanctimonious Family Research Council hypocrite.

Oh, FYI silly libs, food stamps are slavery too.