Rolling Stone retracts UVA rape story
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/12/05/rolling-stone-retracts-uva-story/19954293/

Michale
104

Awwwww, do I gotta!!??? :D

Michale
100

Not by itself it didn't..

I am also constrained to point out the elephant in the room..

There would have been NO REASON for the choke hold if Gardner hadn't resisted arrest...

Officer Pantaleo used the minimum force necessary to accomplish the mission. In this case, restraining Gardner...

Michale
099

That's right! Officer Pantaleo's chokehold caused Gardner to die. Neither I nor the medical examiner's office described that chokehold as contributory to Gardner's death but, rather we agree that it actually caused Gardner's death.

It's time to move on, Michale.

That's not entirely accurate..

The ME's office stated that Gardner's obesity, asthma and diabetes contributed to his death...

Officer Pantaleo's chokehold did not cause Gardner to be fat nor did it cause his asthma or his diabetes..

Now, you are correct when you say that the chokehold was contributory to his death, but as we have already established, the chokehold would not have been present of Gardner had opted NOT to resist arrest...

You're really something else, Michale.

Awwwww, I think yer speeshal too.. :D

Michale
096

Right, and that's why Gardner died as a result of a chokehold, according to the medical examiner's office.

You're really something else, Michale.

That is exactly what the officer did. The video clearly shows that after Gardner said a few times he couldn't breath, Officer Pantaleo eased the pressure of the chokehold..

That's why I say that Pantaleo did everything right, according to his training..

It's hard for the police, and others, to learn lessons about best practices when they don't believe they did anything wrong.

The bigger danger is to change good training to bad training just because of vocal few use threats intimidation and looting because they can't get their way...

When one looks at the FACTS, rather than the emotion in Ferguson and Staten Island, it's clear that the responsibility for the events lie with the perpetrators..

Now, if you want to argue that it's silly for cops to be arresting Gardner for what he was doing, then I would be gung ho to do that..

But for THAT arrest, you would have to blame the politicians of the Nanny/Regulate/Tax everything State...

Michale

But, what you seem unable to admit is that Gardner's death could also have been avoided if the police had relieved the pressure they were applying to Gardner's neck and chest, not to mention his head, when it was obvious he was having trouble breathing.

It's hard for the police, and others, to learn lessons about best practices when they don't believe they did anything wrong.

As the video clearly shows, that is EXACTLY what the officer did...

But you are correct.. It WAS avoidable..

If Gardner had obeyed the lawful orders of police. Orders he was obviously in no physical condition to fight against...

Michale
094

But it was unavoidable ...

Oh, it was hardly unavoidable.

It was easily avoidable.

The officers involved in applying the pressure merely had to ease up a little after half-way through the litany of "I can't breathe" utterances.

Often times, Michale, you see only what you wish to see.

For the record, the death of Eric Gardner wasn't "justified" as it is commonly defined...

But it was unavoidable, given Gardner's current health and his lack of co-operation in obeying the lawful orders of the police on scene..

It should also be noted that the officer did his job well within the bounds of his training and made every effort to insure the safety of his fellow officers AND of Gardner...

While I definitely would NOT put the officer in for a medal (as I would Officer Darren Wilson) and DO feel that it's sad that Gardner died, the simple fact that Gardner alone is responsible for his death..

This should be a lesson to everyone. If an officer gives you a lawful order, you follow it.. period...

Argue about it after the incident is resolved.. It's safer and healthier for everyone involved..

Michale
090

Police union: Some protesters cheered when officer injured
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_27070538/police-union-some-protesters-cheered-when-officer-injured

Ya know??

The Hysterical Left reaps what the Hysterical Left sows...

Michale

Michale
085

I never thought for a micro-second that anyone here was..

We also see that you have never met and will never meet an officer-involved death that wasn't justified.

Michale
084

We also see that you have never met and will never meet an officer-involved death that wasn't justified.

A good read...

Michael Brown and Eric Gardner would be alive today if they hadn't decided to fight the cops and disobey lawful orders from police...

THAT's the point that no one here seems to get...

Michale
084

#159 was 081

Michale
082

First $100,000 then a cool quarter million...

Yea.. Pure as the driven snow...

"Looks like the driven snow has a few tire tracks thru it.."
-Janet Wood, THREE'S COMPANY

This is why I take all the accusations with a huge grain of salt.. There is so much back-story that no one knows...

Michale

"My tradition is not to remark on cases where there may still be an investigation."
-President Obama

Now if Obama changes the word "NOT" to "ALWAYS" then he would be correct..

But, as it is, it's a lie.. And a WHOPPER of a lie..

Obama has been Gruber-fied... He must think Americans are really REALLY stoopid...

Michale

For behavior that is very similar if not identical, to the behavior of Cosby...

Put a different way. If someone steals $100 it's a misdemeanor. If someone steals $1,000,000,000 it's a felony..

Regardless of the degree, that someone is still a thief.. The only difference is the magnitude...

If someone rapes 1 person, and another person rapes 20 people, guess what??

They BOTH are scumbags... The only difference is the magnitude

"I am VECTOR! A mathematical equation that shows both DEPTH and MAGNITUDE!!"
-Victor, DESPICABLE ME

:D

Michale
078

It is undeniable that Bill Cosby is likely a slime-ball...

It's equally undeniable that Bill Clinton is likely a slime-ball too..

Now, you want to argue that what Cosby did is worse than what Clinton did, that's fine.. That's your opinion and I respect that.. I'll even go so far as to conditionally concede the point.

Because it's not central to my point..

My point being that Bill Clinton exhibited the same pattern of behavior that Bill Cosby exhibited yet Bill Clinton gets a pass from the Left..

Such a large pass that the Left is actually actively trying to put Bill Clinton BACK IN THE WHITE HOUSE!

And that is pure, blatant and unadulterated hypocrisy.. No matter how much ya wanna spin it and excuse/mitigate/extenuate what Clinton did, that doesn't change the fact that Clinton gets a pass from the Left...

That is my whole point.

And the fact is simply undeniable..

Michale
077

That argument sound familiar?? It should..

It's the EXACT same argument the Left made in defense of Bill Clinton over the Kathleen Wiley accusation..

Michale
076

I am being flippant about these accusations because of the obvious politics involved and the fact that these women maintained a relationship with Cosby for years after the alleged rape occurred and waited DECADES before coming forward...

If rape is all so serious as you claim (which it is) then NOTHING should take priority over it..

Apparently, with EACH AND EVERY ONE of these women, something was a bigger priority than their alleged rape...

That's all I am saying...

Michale
075

No more flippant than the Left was during the Clinton years..

THAT is my point..

rape is never a game,

Many on the Right said that during the Clinton years..

The response from the Left??

Boys will be boys

f all the allegations against bill clinton, only juanita broaddrick's is an accusation of sexual assault in 1978. if the allegation is true, then clinton should serve jail time. but that allegation is far from certain.

It's as certain as any of the Cosby accusers...

when confronted with the ridiculousness of that argument, your response is to draw a parallel with an unrelated case of a politician who is accused of a different pattern of behavior,

That's just it. The PATTERN is identical..

It's only the magnitude that's different..

and call it partisan bias.

I call 'em as I see 'em...

The same things being said in defense of Cosby is nearly verbatim identical to the things that were said in defense of Clinton..

It's all just politics...

Michale

you're being far too flippant about this. rape is never a game, and the numbers matter only insofar as they determine the probability that an accusation is accurate or inaccurate. that's not something you can believe or disbelieve, it's just math.

of all the allegations against bill clinton, only juanita broaddrick's is an accusation of sexual assault in 1978. if the allegation is true, then clinton should serve jail time. but that allegation is far from certain.

bill cosby's accusers establish a pattern because they are corroborating evidence. some of them individually seem reputable and others seem more sketchy, but as a body of evidence it is highly unlikely that every single one has sufficient motive to lie about it. you've basically argued that twenty women, some recent and some from the past, all told the world they were raped in order to prevent the release of a television show.

when confronted with the ridiculousness of that argument, your response is to draw a parallel with an unrelated case of a politician who is accused of a different pattern of behavior, and call it partisan bias.

JL

How long til 30, 40 or 50 year old allegations of rape come along....

Michale
065

So, we're back to it simply being a numbers game..

The Democrat Poster Child who has a dozen accusers is still better than the thorn in the Dem Party's side that has more than a dozen accusers..

I STILL don't see it that way...

that's the MD who's a conservative talking head, right? to be honest I don't know anything about him, other than the fact that he's a conservative talking head and a doctor. I plead ignorance.

Actually, he's a respect MD who is fed up with Obama's bullshit..

But why muddy the partisan waters with facts, eh??

Facts are always so.... inconvenient when they paint the Democrat Party in a bad light.. :^/

Party Uber Alles....

Michale
064

no, I am arguing that someone who has twenty accusers is more likely than someone who has one accuser to be guilty at least once.

Ben Carson???

that's the MD who's a conservative talking head, right? to be honest I don't know anything about him, other than the fact that he's a conservative talking head and a doctor. I plead ignorance.

He's true blue...

"Being a cop is not what we do, it's who we are!"
-James Woods, THE HARD WAY

Michale

Michale
062

Hmmmmm Scumbags... Where have I heard that before?? :D

Michale
061

Ben Carson???

Michale
060

Well said..

VERY well said...

The airwaves and the blogosphere go on and on nearly hysterically about how it's tragic a young black kid was killed by a cop... A young black kid who was, incidentally, a thug and a thief and a bully and who was a hairsbreadth away from becoming a cop-killer..

But then turn around and ignore the young white guy who was brutally murdered with a hammer right in front of his wife..

THAT is the only truly sad commentary of this whole tragic issue..

Michale

Basically you are arguing that the guy who rapes just 2 women is better than the guy who rapes 20 women...

I just don't see it that way...

Michale

And yet, ALL of the criticisms of President Obama ALL had to do with the fact that Obama was black..

It works both ways, my friend..

I think that's a gross oversimplification.

“And that’s my message to voters, this isn’t about Barack, it’s not about person on that ballot– its about you. And for most of the people we are talking to, a Democratic ticket is the clear ticket that we should be voting on, regardless of who said what or did this– that shouldn’t even come into the equation.”
-Michelle Obama

Michale

none of the criticisms of the individuals you've named has anything to do with the fact that they're black, or even their politics.

Bill Cosby - accused serial rapist, twenty named victims and counting.

[Herman Cain] sic - right wing bill clinton. not criminal, but not exactly the poster child for moral behavior. big shoulder shrug.

Condolezza Rice - no problem whatsoever. decent sec state, big improvement over Rumsfeld, possibly the next NFL commissioner. disagree with her politically, but no other issues.

Clarence Thomas - major issue on judicial impartiality and conflict of interest. should have recused himself on a number of cases to avoid the appearance of favoring his wife's lobbying firm. other judges have made similar mistakes, and I'm sure there are judges out there more corrupt than thomas, but I'm not exactly a fan.

But neither of them let that get in the way of full and complete support for the Democrat Party... If it's a choice between the Party or the issue, ya'all choose Party each and every time..

I think that's a gross oversimplification. my support for a candidate depends on the specifics of the candidate and their opponent(s). In 2008 I seriously considered voting for McCain because I strongly supported his work on campaign finance reform. ultimately I ended up voting in the Obama wave.

on the whole, the truism tends to hold that democrats fall in love, while republicans fall in line.

JL

Now, I am not sure how it is in ya'alls world, but here amongst the CIVILIZED human beings in this world, that tends to be a big deal...

Michale

Drugs, poverty, no respect, no father figure... While it might not add up to a serial killer, it's 95% sure that Michael Brown would have ended up dead by violence anyways..

Well, other than the shop clerk and Wilson do you have any proof of "other victims"?

Two is all I need...

Probably none. Marijuana is not PCP and to think otherwise is just ignorance of pharmacology.

And yet, Michael Brown brought fists to a gun fight. And the demeanor and facial expressions of Brown as described by Wilson indicate that apparently Michael Brown couldn't hold his pot...

Michale

I am sure many of Michael Brown's victims would agree with me..

Well, other than the shop clerk and Wilson do you have any proof of "other victims"?

Who knows how many more victims there might have been had Michael Brown not been stopped...

Probably none. Marijuana is not PCP and to think otherwise is just ignorance of pharmacology...

I calls em as I sees em, Liz...

I am sure many of Michael Brown's victims would agree with me..

Who knows how many more victims there might have been had Michael Brown not been stopped...

I know, I know. Michael Brown was somebody's son...

So was Ted Bundy... So was William Gacy... So was Jeffery Dahlmer...

They are all scumbags too and this world is a bit safer and a lot better without them in it..

So it is with Michael Brown..

I know it's not a very nice thing to say.. But it is how I feel...

Michale

Bashi has made it clear that the Dem Party's stance on Gun Control is moronic..

JL has spoken many times against the absolute stoopidity of the Administration's Educational aspects..

But neither of them let that get in the way of full and complete support for the Democrat Party... If it's a choice between the Party or the issue, ya'all choose Party each and every time..

It's like Michelle Obama said. Who cares what the candidates are or what they say or what they have done. Just vote Dem up and down the line...

Michale

Must opinions be expressed here, of all places, with such vitriol?

And, lest anyone think I'm encouraging political correctness, I'm not ... just wishing for a little more common decency when discussing issues that are already inherently charged.

Unless, of course, they are black people who don't toe the Party line.. Like Bill Cosby, Hermann King, Condolezza Rice, Clarence Thomas, etc etc etc...

Party Uber Alles

Michale

THAT's yer proof?? :D

A video plainly showing the officer telling him to stop filming when filming a police officer in the course of his duties is quite legal...

Ya'all don't seem to have ANY words of condemnation for those scumbags...

And you support bad cops even with video proof...

An anonymous source who has a bunch of charges pending.

THAT's yer proof?? :D

Would you accept that kind of proof from me??

Of course you wouldn't..

Bashi, Bashi, Bashi...

Yer on the losing side of this one..

There is absolutely *NO CREDIBLE* evidence to support ANY other conclusion but that it was a good shoot..

I also find it interesting that ya'all have gone to such lengths to condemn Wilson without ANY CREDIBLE EVIDENCE to back it up, yet ya'all are completely and utterly silent on the looting and the destruction of people's lives and livelyhood.. People who are completely innocent and had NOTHING to do with the Michael Brown shooting..

Ya'all don't seem to have ANY words of condemnation for those scumbags...

I wonder why...

Because, in ya'all's eyes a black person can do no wrong..

Michale

No, you don't..

really?

Violating a citizen's constitutional rights is at least as bad as shoplifting...

And, how exactly is the police to blame for that?? If black people wouldn't be killing other black people in record numbers, then there would be a lot less need for police response in black areas..

And just how was the public, specifically that neighborhood endangered by an unarmed teenager to such a degree that waiting for backup was not an option?

The simple fact that the scumbag was so drugged out of his mind to attack an armed officer, in essence to bring his fists to a gun fight PROVES he was a threat to society... Suppose Wilson would have let it go and wait and some little kid bumped into the scumbag and the scumbag went off..

Cops do not have the luxury of hoping that the best case scenario works out..

And a bad cop lost his job. Idiot meets idiot, stupidly ensues...

Do you have ANY evidence that Wilson was a bad cop??

No, you don't..

As usual, you are simply speaking from ignorance..

Michale

Or the animosity the police had created in the black community...

Newsflash for ya sunshine.. By putting himself at a defensive advantage, he was protecting the public..

He was not in a defensive advantage otherwise the events might have turned out differently. And just how was the public, specifically that neighborhood endangered by an unarmed teenager to such a degree that waiting for backup was not an option? Talk about Monday morning quarterbacking, look in the mirror.

A druggie scumbag felon bully is dead...

And a bad cop lost his job. Idiot meets idiot, stupidly ensues...

A druggie scumbag felon bully is dead...

That makes it a good shoot...

Michale

And THAT means it was a bad shoot???

What's your thinking process on that??

How did you get from here to there??

There was rioting and the national guard was called in costing both the city of Ferguson and the state of Missouri quite a bit of money. The officer in question has been forced to quit his job and lose his pension all over a box of cigars. That's a "good" shoot?

How does that have ANY bearing on the facts of the shooting??

All of that only shows the lawlessness and the utter stoopidity of the black community in Ferguson..

Not in my book...

Yea, but we're not talking CAT IN THE HAT here...

Because conservative blowhards spew their heavily biased bile on opinion pages? It's all Obama's fault. And yet you rail against the Left for blaming Bush for everything. All the while never ever criticizing a republican. It's an odd strategy to point out our hypocrisy by being the biggest hypocrite here...

It's all the Democrat Party's fault...

If they would actually hold people accountable for their actions....

Lets see, how about not pulling the car up to the suspects in a way that puts the officer in a defensive disadvantage?

And your vast LEO experience tells you that??

Newsflash for ya sunshine.. By putting himself at a defensive advantage, he was protecting the public..

Ya know. HIS JOB...

That's the part that ya'all seem to forget...

There were many options, the officer made some wrong ones...

Says the guy completely ignorant of police procedures but apparently an expert in Monday Morning Quarterbacking... :D

Michale

Lets see, a black teenager is dead. There was rioting and the national guard was called in costing both the city of Ferguson and the state of Missouri quite a bit of money. The officer in question has been forced to quit his job and lose his pension all over a box of cigars. That's a "good" shoot? Not in my book...

Now we know WHY things like Ferguson happen...

Because conservative blowhards spew their heavily biased bile on opinion pages? It's all Obama's fault. And yet you rail against the Left for blaming Bush for everything. All the while never ever criticizing a republican. It's an odd strategy to point out our hypocrisy by being the biggest hypocrite here...

From the factual and credible evidence, there doesn't seem to be another course of action, other than simply turning a blind eye...

And to do that would simply abdicated officer Wilson's responsibility as a police officer..

Lets see, how about not pulling the car up to the suspects in a way that puts the officer in a defensive disadvantage? I bet the police academy had some lessons about that. How about following the suspects until backup arrives instead of confrontation alone? There were many options, the officer made some wrong ones...

I still prefer PANTS UP, DON'T LOOT

But then again, I am a Law And Order kinda guy... Not a guy who condones lawlessness and senseless wanton destruction...

Silly me...

Michale

My own words??

Hokay..

Democrat Party sucks. It keeps the black community on welfare and doesn't give them, as a whole, a way out of their dependency.. Thereby keeping them enslaved and beholden to the Democrat Party..

Don't you find it strange that vast majority of successful blacks in this country are Republican or conservative...

There is a reason for that...

The point, Michale, is whether or not there was a better option available.

The ONLY person who is qualified to make that determination is the cop on the scene..

From the factual and credible evidence, there doesn't seem to be another course of action, other than simply turning a blind eye...

And to do that would simply abdicated officer Wilson's responsibility as a police officer..

This isn't like the Sanford Shooting.. Officer Wilson did not have the option to back away... Neither did Zimmerman, albeit for different reasons...

Michale

I wanted the gist of the article, in YOUR OWN WORDS ... oh, wait ...

i read kirkham's article-length version, and it was fascinating. the experience sounds similar in some ways to the way people act toward teachers. also a symbol of authority, also expected to act calm and polite in the face of ridiculous behavior, and also frequently second-guessed by enthusiastic amateurs. obviously the jobs are not identical - classroom teachers are rarely asked to put their lives at risk, newtown notwithstanding. justifiably, law enforcement officers have a few extra tools at their disposal. nonetheless, the parallels are interesting.

I know cops who have braved bullets, who HAVE been shot and who have gone up against the worst of the worst that humanity has to offer. And, to a 1, they all would say they would NEVER be a teacher! Too dangerous!! :D

Michale

Michale

And again, I thought the point was whether or not Wilson was justified in the use of deadly force..

If you want to concede that he WAS justified, then we can move on to your point...

What could be more fair than that.. :D

What's the gist of the article in your link? You know how I hate clicking on links ...

Michale

Now we know WHY things like Ferguson happen...

What's the gist of the article in your link? You know how I hate clicking on links ...

I am still waiting for some FACTS that indicate this was not a good shoot...

I'm still waiting for you to stop missing the point. I guess that will happen when Hell freezes over ... :)

Now we know WHY things like Ferguson happen...

Michale

Looks like Barkley has been reading chrisweigant.com :D

Michale

With regards to the Ferguson shooting.. No, he doesn't.

I am still waiting for some FACTS that indicate this was not a good shoot...

Michale

JL

I actually read that article awhile ago..

While he makes some valid general points, his analysis simply doesn't apply to Ferguson..

None of his claims (or ya'all's incidentially) is supported by ANY factual or credible evidence...

Michale

Email me your shipping address and I'll send you a Mass Market Paperback copy of SIGNAL ZERO with my compliments.. :D

All I ask is that you read it (your time permitting) and report back your thoughts.. :D

Michale

Michale

It's not a long book at all.. You could probably read it in just a few hours...

Michale

You and I absolutely agree on this.. 1000%.. Just because cops have a rough job doesn't justify shooting Brown..

What justifies shooting Brown is that he attacked a police officer and attempted to take the cops weapon..

THAT is what justifies the shooting of Brown..

I know we'll never agree on this point. But that's what makes life interesting.. :D

Michale

The fact that they have a difficult job doesn't justify the Michael Brown shooting.

-David

p.s. Thanks for the book rec. I'll check it out.

The fact that they have a difficult job doesn't justify the Michael Brown shooting.

-David

p.s. Thanks for the book rec. I'll check it out.

Any situation that comes to someone getting shot is unfortunate. Sometimes necessary, but unfortunate.

I would like you to read a book called SIGNAL ZERO.. It's about a liberal professor at a liberal college that was exactly like you. Constantly second guessing the cops, claiming they are too aggressive etc etc...

On a challenge, he joins a police force in a fairly large city.. His days as a police officer are an eye opener to him..

If you can read that book, it would be an eye-opener for you as well...

No one has the right to condemn cops until they walk in the cops' shoes...

Michale

I don't believe there is such a thing, Michale.

Any situation that comes to someone getting shot is unfortunate. Sometimes necessary, but unfortunate.

-David

Could you postulate me a scenario where a white cop can shoot a black subject and you would deem it justified...

I would like to see what that would look like..

The real problem here is the lack of trust in our justice system. For any number of reasons. A few you mentioned when it came to Officer Wilson. Did the situation really warrant 6 bullets?

Officers are trained to continue to fire until the threat is eliminated..

In this case, Brown continued to come at Wilson despite Wilson almost emptying his clip. This was likely due to a combination of factors. Lousy marksmanship by Wilson, the bulk of Brown and the fact that Brown was high at the time..

Cops fire until the threat is eliminated. This is how they are trained..

Michale

Fair enough. I do too. I do believe, however, that Mr. McCulloch put his thumb on the scales (so to speak). Mostly the grand jury seems like it was used as a way to absolve everyone from responsibility. McCulloch can say "the grand jury said ..." even though if you ask a lawyer, they will tell you it's the prosecutor who determines the outcome of the grand jury.

The real problem here is the lack of trust in our justice system. For any number of reasons. A few you mentioned when it came to Officer Wilson. Did the situation really warrant 6 bullets?

-David

Graphical Timeline Ferguson Shooting
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/national/ferguson-grand-jury-findings/

If that doesn't convince you, nothing will..

But I know.. Nothing will convince ya.. Ya'all have made up your minds, facts be damned...

Michale

Especially when you don't see incidents like this where police are using excessive force against white people.

First of all, there was no excessive force used in Ferguson because, simply put, you are not qualified to determine what "excessive" is... By training, a peace officer is obligated to use the amount of force necessary to accomplish the goal and no more..

In this case, the "goal" for Officer Wilson was to stay alive. The only way to accomplish that goal was to eliminate the threat. Officer Wilson used enough force to accomplish the goal..

No "excess" whatsoever...

Second, you have the case of Dillion Taylor.. A white guy who was shot by a black cop in Salt Lake City, Utah...

So, this kinda decimates yer claim that cops don't shoot white people...

Michale

I am also constrained to point out that Officer Wilson, like George Zimmerman, did NOT "pursue" Michael Brown..

According to the evidence, Wilson exited the vehicle and ordered Brown to stop and go to the ground.

Brown refused and turned and charged Wilson...

I honestly am stunned that this is actually an issue.. With ANY change in the racial makeup of the victim (Wilson) and the perp (Brown), this would be a good shoot on any day of the week and twice on Sunday....

The mere fact that Brown was black and Wilson was not is the ONLY reason that it's an issue..

And THAT is the saddest commentary of all...

Michale

Had Brown not turned to attack Wilson, it's entirely possible that Wilson would have done just that...

*I* wouldn't, but I was a gung-ho type with more testosterone than brains.. :D

Michale

Had Brown not turned to attack Wilson, it's entirely possible that Wilson would have done just that...

*I* wouldn't, but I was a gung-ho type with more testosterone than brains.. :D

Wilson did what he had to do to survive.. Since there is absolutely no credible evidence to dispute his version of events, he should be honored for the hero that he is...

Michale

It is not..

why wouldn't you go back to the vehicle and report what happened, or follow in the vehicle?

Had Brown not turned to attack Wilson, it's entirely possible that Wilson would have done just that...

*I* wouldn't, but I was a gung-ho type with more testosterone than brains.. :D

Wilson did what he had to do to survive.. Since there is absolutely no credible evidence to dispute his version of events, he should be honored for the hero that he is...

Michale

Because it's his job.. Brown was in a very violent state. If he had escaped, he could badly hurt or kill someone..

The fact that Brown turned and attacked Wilson is simply more proof of how unstable Brown was...

Had Brown continued to run and Wilson shot him in the back, it STILL would have been a good shoot..

Considering the evidence we have of Officer Wilson's honor and integrity, chances are good that, if Brown had kept running and not turned to attack Wilson, Brown would be alive today..

Or at least, not dead at the hands of Officer Wilson...

Michale

It's not sketchy at all if you look at the forensic evidence and then discount the eyewitness testimony that is disputed by the forensic evidence..

The problem is, the eyewitness testimony that is disputed by the forensic evidence is the testimony ya'all WANT to believe..

So, ya'all can be forgiven for not wanting to discard it.. :D

Michale

It's not sketchy at all if you look at the forensic evidence and then discount the eyewitness testimony that is disputed by the forensic evidence..

The problem is, the eyewitness testimony that is disputed by the forensic evidence is the testimony ya'all WANT to believe..

So, ya'all can be forgiven for not wanting to discard it..

my question - and this is a serious question - if the officer had already been assaulted and backup called, why would you pursue someone alone on foot with weapon drawn,

Because it's his job.. Brown was in a very violent state. If he had escaped, he could badly hurt or kill someone..

The fact that Brown turned and attacked Wilson is simply more proof of how unstable Brown was...

Had Brown continued to run and Wilson shot him in the back, it STILL would have been a good shoot..

Considering the evidence we have of Officer Wilson's honor and integrity, chances are good that, if Brown had kept running and not turned to attack Wilson, Brown would be alive today..

Or at least, not dead at the hands of Officer Wilson...

isn't that a poor decision?

It is not..

why wouldn't you go back to the vehicle and report what happened, or follow in the vehicle?

Had Brown not turned to attack Wilson, it's entirely possible that Wilson would have done just that...

*I* wouldn't, but I was a gung-ho type with more testosterone than brains.. :D

Wilson did what he had to do to survive.. Since there is absolutely no credible evidence to dispute his version of events, he should be honored for the hero that he is...

Michale

Let me amend that to say that either Brown's death or Wison's death was pre-ordained..

Once the attack began, only one of them was going to walk away...

Michale

I thought the point was the guilt or innocence of Darren Wilson??

Or are we discarding that and simply going with Lynch Mob justice???

Because that's what ya'all seem to want..

You want him indicted, have a trial, find him guilty and then string him up..

That's what ya'all are arguing for...

THAT's what ya'all are calling "justice"...

Count me out...

Michale

Good to have ya'all back!! :D

Liz,

So, in the final analysis, you are saying that there is no space for redemption, no chance that an obviously misguided youth could turn his life around had the officer successfully defended himself through some other means that did not involve the death of the suspect?

That works pretty well on Disney Movies, but rarely in real life...

Further, the only way for Brown to survive the incident is for him to kill Officer Wilson..

Surely that's not a better outcome??

Brown was high. He wasn't thinking clearly. The minute Brown attacked Wilson and tried to take Wilson's gun, Brown's death was a foregone conclusion...

David,

According to Mr. Wilson. The killer.

And the couple dozen eyewitnesses AND ALL of the forensic evidence.

Whose story quite honestly sounds like he made it up to try to beat the charges.

That's just ridiculous...

Btw, 16 out of 18 witnesses said Mike Brown had his hands up when shot.

And THAT is a load of crap.. Out of the approx 20 witness, only 2 or 3 said that Brown had his hands up. And those witnesses admitted that they weren't there or that they based their testimony on media reports and they based their testimony on what others told them to say... This is documented.

Further, there is NO forensic evidence that support the claim that Brown was shot with his arms raised, or shot in the back or shut running away...

Now, ya'all are free to ignore ALL the forensic evidence and ALL the eyewitness testimony except for the 2 or 3 people who say what you want to hear but who already admitted that they were lying...

Ya'all are absolutely free to think that way...

Of course that means ya'all can no longer say you are relying on facts, but that's a small price to pay, right? :D

Michale

You misunderstood me, David ... probably because I was being about as clear as mud. :)

Bottom line ... this is a very complicated case. The testimony is all over the map with many eye-witness statements and testimony bordering on the ludicrous. I'm not sure what was motivating the prosecutor in deciding to go the grand jury route and handling the proceedings the way he did.

In my comment #83, I was mostly thinking out loud about how a grand jury may have the best option and that I think the grand jury made a reasonable decision, based on what they heard; I'm thinking that if this had gone to trial it's very doubtful that there would have been a conviction - just based on what I've read of the grand jury testimony - and what would have been the result of a not guilty verdict and the consequences for the Ferguson community.

Anyway, I think I'm about done with this subject and very much looking forward to moving on ... :)

I'm sorry. I don't even know what this means.

A grand jury isn't supposed to decide on whether a better judicial outcome could be decided in a jury trial.

A grand jury is looking for probably cause to indict. They're only looking for reasonable evidence to proceed. They don't have to have preponderance of evidence. We're not talking about "beyond a reasonable doubt". We're talking about there exists evidence to proceed.

A grand jury is not supposed to be ruling on guilt or innocence.

I think that enough witnesses came forward to say Brown was surrendering (and Wilson's story has enough holes in it) for there to be probably cause of at least a manslaughter charge.

It's hard to trust a justice system that won't even pursue justice against some people (in this case, a police officer).

And the real problem is what this does to faith in our justice system. Unfortunately, I have more faith in NFL referees right now than I do in our justice system. Sad that the NFL does a better job of officiating.

-David

I'm not so sure that we can discount the possibility of a certain degree of incompetence in this prosecutor's office. Okay, I'm being a bit facetious, here. I'm not sure we can say that he never wanted an indictment, either.

This case was very difficult and extremely problematic, any way you slice it, all of which may have left McCulloch with essentially bad options, without us getting into any further detail of all of the circumstances involved.

So, while it may have been better for some if there had been a trial, that may not have represented a better judicial outcome - I'm basing that primarily on the testimony the Grand Jury heard in this case.

We should count them. In fact, that's why I was looking at it statistically. Because witnesses are often unreliable.

The purpose of a grand jury is not to determine guilt or innocence but rather to determine whether or not to bring charges.

This is an extremely low bar for prosecutors to clear. The prosecutor's case is the only one that is usually discussed. There is no defense.

This is why grand juries almost always return an indictment.

As Nate Silver points out, out of 162,000 federal cases in 2010, grand juries decided not to indict only 11 times. That is, federal grand juries return indictments 99.99% of the time.

The question isn't guilt or innocence but rather if there is a sufficient case to bring it to trial.

It is also why the accused never testifies at a grand jury.

The problem in the case of this grand jury is that Robert McCulloch let Wilson testify without any cross examination.

In other words, he acted like a defense lawyer, not a prosecutor.

When a prosecutor isn't acting like a prosecutor it looks like a) he is incompetent (which doesn't seem to be the case), or b) he never wanted an indictment.

-David

I'm afraid this is a classic case of MISSING THE POINT!!!

Just ONE piece of evidence that is factual...

Just ONE....

Michale

We'll never know.

Because a prosecutor decided he was the judge and jury instead of doing his job and seeking an indictment.

The evidence CLEARLY showed that the cop did the right thing..

WHY seek an indictment??

SOLELY because the subject was black???

Michale

Which would seem to suggest that the training of officers with respect to how they should deal with situations like this needs to be revisited.

my question - and this is a serious question - if the officer had already been assaulted and backup called, why would you pursue someone alone on foot with weapon drawn, if you don't think you could physically subdue him except by deadly force? isn't that a poor decision? why wouldn't you go back to the vehicle and report what happened, or follow in the vehicle?

JL

I think it's important when we start analyzing how many witnesses said this and how many said that that we take into account the overall reliability of the witnesses, based on their entire testimony in this case, and how their testimony comports with the physical evidence of the case.

For instance, according to that chart in your link, most of the witnesses who said that MB's hands were up also said that MB was shot several times while he was down, at close range with the officer standing over him. This would mean that there should be entrance wounds in his back but the physical evidence does not show that.