They would never take me alive!!! :D

But in the REAL world, Joe Blow Sixpack would have pee'ed his pants and given up the pictures, my grandson would be home save and sound and I would be given a medal... :D

Michale

We'll just have to disagree on that...

I am not so selfish as to think my personal privacy is worth anyone's life..

I am surprised to learn that such a thought is in the minority of one around here..

Michale

See [8] above. We can come up with hypotheticals all day long that would save a "single innocent life". Why are some holier than others?

I am not talking about GPS services

Actually GPS is calculated from signals sent from satellites. It's a one way process. Every time your cell phone connects with a tower, it can log your general location. This is not just making a call. It's pretty much doing it all the time anytime it is on...

Is your personal privacy more important to you than an innocent person's life..

The constitutionally protected personal privacy of the entire country's populace is definitely worth innocent person's life.

If my grandson was kidnapped and Joe Blow Sixpack had pictures of the scumbag that did it on his phone and was exercising his right to privacy and refusing to give up said pictures, Mr Blow Sixpack would find a Remigton 12-Gauge screwed up his ass to give him some incentive to reconsider his civic duty...

And Joe Blow Sixpack would be dead, so would your grandson and you would be in prison for murder. Wow, some high level problem solving there...

NO ONE's rights, privacy or otherwise, is worth an innocent life...

The USA has been involved in quite a few wars during it's existence that say otherwise...

If my grandson was kidnapped and Joe Blow Sixpack had pictures of the scumbag that did it on his phone and was exercising his right to privacy and refusing to give up said pictures, Mr Blow Sixpack would find a Remigton 12-Gauge screwed up his ass to give him some incentive to reconsider his civic duty...

NO ONE's rights, privacy or otherwise, is worth an innocent life...

It's only in today's ego-centric and ME FIRST, LAST AND ALWAYS societal mentality that such an issue would even have to be contemplated...

Michale

Huh???

And your knowledge of technology is woefully inadequate. Location data is logged by cell towers and held on carrier servers...

I am not talking about GPS services.. Yes, in THAT particular case, that data is readily available even without a warrant.. I am talking about specific information on the phone itself..

Ah, no. You are saying that. The manufactures are saying the privacy of innocent people is important to a free state

And all I am saying is that privacy is NOT more important than innocent lives..

Am I wrong??

Also, most of what police would need in the case of both the pedophile or terrorist is available with a warrant: location data and wiretaps.

In a pinch, most if not all of that is accessible without a warrant..

We are not talking about that stuff..

We are talking about This mixed with home automation means that your cell phone could be your wallet, house keys, airplane boarding passes, control of your security system, heating system, home lighting system, home entertainment system.

Your phone is encrypted, much of what leaves your phone and travels over the internet/phone system is not...

There is a reason why it's illegal to possess certain encryption capabilities..

Let's cut thru all the felgercarp and lay out the question you are trying to dance around..

It's a simple question requiring no equivocation whatsoever...

Is your personal privacy more important to you than an innocent person's life..

Yes or no?

Michale

And yet your ability to drive fast is...

Apparently, you are not up on current events.. The phones that prompted this discussion are NOT crackable by ANYONE.

And your knowledge of technology is woefully inadequate. Location data is logged by cell towers and held on carrier servers...

Basically, the phone manufacturers are saying, "The privacy of a pedophile or a terrorist is more important than the lives of innocent people.. PERIOD"

Ah, no. You are saying that. The manufactures are saying the privacy of innocent people is important to a free state, and more to the point helps sell phones. Also, most of what police would need in the case of both the pedophile or terrorist is available with a warrant: location data and wiretaps. Your phone is encrypted, much of what leaves your phone and travels over the internet/phone system is not...

Are you REALLY trying to balance the lives of 100 innocent children with my fear that pics of me in my wife's french maid outfit will be seen by law enforcement personnel???

Well, I'll have to think about that for a micro-fraction of a micro second..

YES I would whole-heartedly put the lives of .000003% of the US population before my own personal privacy...

What kind on insane selfish person WOULDN'T???

Plus, any stats on how many of those hundred children would have been saved by the data on the phone? I'm guessing it's pretty close to zero.

Unless it's a stone cold definite ZERO, you have no case...

Let me spell it out for you in words of one syllable..

My Personal Privacy Is NOT Worth The Life Of A Single Innocent Person...

And I would be willing to wager that ANYONE here would say the same thing, if they could see past their partisan blinders...

Plus the most likely useful data in that situation is location data and that is held by the carrier and available with a warrant.

Apparently, you are not up on current events.. The phones that prompted this discussion are NOT crackable by ANYONE.

So, even if the cops DO get a warrant, there isn't anything anyone could do..

Basically, the phone manufacturers are saying, "The privacy of a pedophile or a terrorist is more important than the lives of innocent people.. PERIOD"

And I am sure, if you really think about it, you would agree with me that THAT sucks...

Michale

You really want to put liberty at risk for .0000003% of the population at most? Freedom means that little to you?

Plus, any stats on how many of those hundred children would have been saved by the data on the phone? I'm guessing it's pretty close to zero. Plus the most likely useful data in that situation is location data and that is held by the carrier and available with a warrant.

Over 100 children are kidnapped and brutally murdered every year...

The hypothetical is not as obscure as you like to tell yourself to assuage the guilt...

What it all boils down to is this.

By taking the stance that is being taken, the technology companies and ya'all are, in effect, saying that personal privacy is more important that an innocent person's life..

When ya boil away all the rhetoric and all the lame justifications and all the claims of obscure hypotheticals, THAT is what is left..

That personal privacy is more important than human lives..

I find that concept to be... alien. Probably because I have seen the aftermath...

Michale

But if time is of the essence and the police have a pretty good idea that vital information is there, I really don't have a problem with force being applied..

It all comes down to the age old question. At least age old as long as I have been on CW.COM :D

Is someone's personal privacy worth more than an innocent person's life??

Personally I think the answer is obvious...

If it's the criminals phone, then yes. If it's encrypted, go the NSA. Their abuse of power got the local police in to this mess, their super computers can get them out. This country was founded on liberty. If a few must die to preserve it, so be it.

The problem with that sentiment is that it's not the person whose privacy is being protected is the one to die..

In other words, if Joe Blow wants to die to protect his own privacy, more power to him. He can knock himself out.. I don't care..

But does Joe Blow have the right for an INNOCENT person to die to protect Joe Blow's privacy???

Again, I would think that THAT is a no brainer..

But maybe that's just me...

Michale

Depends on who's phone. If I am a random bystander that might have footage of the situation, I should be asked to help but the police should not be able to just take my phone because there might be evidence on it. There has been too many abuses recently by authorities from the DOJ and NSA all the way down to cops on the beat. Don't like phone encryption, take your complaints to the NSA.

For example. If a scumbag kidnapped a child and stuffed him somewhere and there is likely evidence on the phone that would indicate where the child is, then authorities should have carte blanche in accessing the phone??

If it's the criminals phone, then yes. If it's encrypted, go the NSA. Their abuse of power got the local police in to this mess, their super computers can get them out. This country was founded on liberty. If a few must die to preserve it, so be it. Matter of fact, I think it's even on one states license plate...

Under those circumstances I had better be charged with at least a felony and stuffed in the back of the police car before law enforcement should have the right to take my phone. Just because it might have evidence on whatever they are working on is just not enough anymore considering how much the phone could control and how important that is to living my life day to day.

So, you would agree that the severity of the crime should determine the level of access??

For example. If a scumbag kidnapped a child and stuffed him somewhere and there is likely evidence on the phone that would indicate where the child is, then authorities should have carte blanche in accessing the phone??

Michale

How do you like Holder's DOJ now???

Still think he deserves all the accolades ya'll have given him recently???

Something about hoisting and Picards comes to mind... :D

Where are all the civil libertarians in Congress? Where is Rand Paul, for instance? Where is Darrell Issa, that supposed champion government-abuse overseer? Where is the congressional investigation into how many times this practice has been used, to whom, and who signed off on such practices?

Where's Obama??? Where's Holder???

These are the guys who ORIGINATED and IMPLEMENTED this...

Why don't you hold THEM accountable or, at the very least, give them dishonorable mention??

As THE leaders, Holder and Obama are ultimately responsible...

Where's the condemnation???

Michale

Another interesting story today was out of the UK. There have been at least six known cases in the UK of people remote wiping their phones after they had been confiscated. In one case while the suspect was still in custody.