Ferguson, Sanford, Benghazi, Immigration, IRS, VA, ISIS, Egypt, Syria, Libya, TrainWreckCare, etc etc etc..

One can add Russia and Ukraine and The Crimea to that list as well...

Michale

I bug him so much the same reason I bug most everyone so much...

Because, more often than not, circumstances and reality prove me right.. :D

Ferguson, Sanford, Benghazi, Immigration, IRS, VA, ISIS, Egypt, Syria, Libya, TrainWreckCare, etc etc etc..

The list is endless....

About the only thing I have been consistently wrong on is that damn RCP Poll!!!! :D

But with JFC, I think it's more of a case that he can't intimidate me with immature personal attacks and childish name-calling and that just bugs the crap out of him... :D

Michale

chatbot,

You prove my point once again... :D

Your problem is that anyone who disagrees with you MUST be a chatbot because no human being with a rational mind could POSSIBLY disagree with you...

It goes back to what Paula accused the Republicans of.. Dehumanizing your opponent..

Michale

I don't believe much in labels.

I'm quite familiar with the Greens. A friend helped write that platform. I find it unfortunate, however, that he concerns himself with so much policy. Very few people outside the people who wrote that platform would ever read it.

Policies are not beliefs. Typically, their are beliefs behind policies. But they are not beliefs.

Perhaps beliefs is an offensive word to you. I know it is to many people. They associate it with religion and/or other tyrannical forms of power. It doesn't have to be though. Freedom is a great example of a belief that undercuts power.

So I've got labels and policies but I still don't know what you believe. For example, you say you are a vegetarian. This tells me you don't eat meat. But it doesn't tell me why.

Here's a couple guesses. I would say you believe in rationality or reason. I would also guess that you believe in helping people or what someone like George Lakoff would call mutual responsibility. That's about all I can gather.

You should not make any wagers on the first part of 108. The odds will be too short.

Fair enough. My question would be, why? Or ... rephrased, what is it that Michale does that violates your core beliefs?

If you understand why Michale bugs you so much, I think you'll better be able to explain your beliefs.

-David

"you sure have a problem NOT mentioning me in practically every one of your comments."

LOL! Since reading comprehension is a problem for you, I'll explain this carefully even though it's against my policy of not replying to chatbots.

*David* made a prediction about *me* (I think you'll find if you hang around long enough, you'll like (the chatbot).) Then *he* asked *me* what *I* believe. *I* was replying to *David* and *I* told *him* that *I* believe *he* should not place any wagers on that proposition because *he* would lose that wager about *me*. If you weren't a chatbot, you'd be a drama queen with a big giant head.

OK. Now it's your turn to deceptively clip something from this comment to make it sound like I've said something I haven't so you can be right. Have fun.

Ya know, for someone who claims I am just a chat bot and it would be better if people ignored me, you sure have a problem NOT mentioning me in practically every one of your comments.. :D

The reason I have endured for so long here is that, more often than not, I am proven right time and time again.. :D

Michale

"I'm curious about your beliefs"
"Feel free to answer any way you want."

I'm an atheist. At the AOLHuff, I was labeled an angry, militant, fundamentalist, new atheist, but they called me a teabagger there too. lol. I'm a member of the Green Party. http://www.gp.org/what-we-believe/our-platform I've been a vegetarian for so long that I no longer recall when I last ate meat. I volunteer weekly at a no-kill animal shelter and have for many years. Mostly I believe that it's too late. The End is near. There are too many people on this planet.

I also know a lot more about health insurance than most people.

I'm not from Cincinnati and have never lived anywhere near there. It's a screen name based on the HBO series "John From Cincinnati". My name might not even be John!

You should not make any wagers on the first part of 108. The odds will be too short.

Except for the people protesting because they can't make $20 an hour which is what the starting pay is for a cop..

The big problem I see is that we're working hard and someone else is enjoying all the benefits (and trying to take away health care, retirement, weekends, etc, etc).

Oh, and they're trying to make us work harder and longer.

No one can MAKE anyone do anything..

This is America and there is ALWAYS a choice..

Your utopia seems more like slavery to me.

Actually it's YOUR utopia that is slavery.. Government dependency IS slavery...

Which is ironic, since the Democrat Party was the Party responsible for the LAST bout of slavery..

Michale

Funny. Everyone I know is working hard.

Who are these people you keep talking about who aren't working hard?

The big problem I see is that we're working hard and someone else is enjoying all the benefits (and trying to take away health care, retirement, weekends, etc, etc).

Oh, and they're trying to make us work harder and longer.

People used to benefit much much more.

What's the point of all this "work" if all the benefit is going to someone else?

Your utopia seems more like slavery to me.

-David

Fair enough.

I was asking because I'm curious about your beliefs. How do you believe people should treat others? What are they responsible for? Or make up a question of your own choosing.

Feel free to answer any way you want. I could say many other things but I don't want to bias you.

-David

"{{{cough}}} bullshit..."
-Iceman, TOP GUN

:D

Michale

Your utopian vision has one fatal flaw..

You expect the Demcoratic Party to deliver it for you..

Under Obama and the Democrats the middle class has become poorer, the poor have become poorer and the top 10% have become richer...

That is what I can't understand. You lay out this lollipop utopia where everyone is excellent to each other..

Yet you support a Party whose biggest accomplishments are turning American against American and lining the pockets of the very people you claim are the problem..

It's non sequitor... It doesn't fit.. It's contradictory...

Michale

But what you DON'T see, what you WON'T see is that, with few exceptions, those people EARNED that wealth..

America isn't about everyone being equal...

It's about everyone getting an EQUAL shot..

That's the point that you and the Left just don't seem to get..

From birth, everyone in this country has an equal shot to be a George Soros or a Warren Buffet or a Barack Obama.

The problem here is that everyone on the Left wants to penalize people who made the GOOD decisions in life and wants to force them to support the people who made the BAD decisions in life..

Oh yea, you might find one or two that have made all the right decisions and has just been unlucky. ONE or TWO..

But the vast majority of people in this country are where they are because they were lazy and/or made some really stoopid decisions..

So, the question remains, why should the people who were smart and worked hard have to support the people who are lazy and stoopid??

It's the Grasshopper And The Ant....

If you don't have a vision for a better future, what are you fighting for?

The problem is the Democrat Party way rewards laziness and sloth and criminal behavior..

Now I don't consider that "a better future"..

I consider "a better future" where people work hard for the betterment of themselves and this country..

NOT for the betterment of the Democrat Party..

Because, when all is said and done, everything that is being discussed here is for the betterment of the Democrat Party at the expense of the country.

Michale

I think that's a very vague question. What does "responsible for themselves" mean? Does *anybody* get a pass on *any kind* of help or is this all or nothing proposition? I recognize that I've enjoyed a very fortunate existence and I'm disinclined to be harshly judgmental about people who draw short straws. Are you talking about welfare or what?

I think you'll find if you hang around long enough, you'll like Michale. He just comes on a little strong.

Sincere question. Do you have anything against personal responsibility? That is, do you believe people should be responsible for themselves?

-David

Um, not really. I think I see pretty clearly how the wealth of our country is being distributed upwards to a very few.

But riddle me this, Michale.

I think we'd all be better off if everyone profited from the efforts of our country. "Utopia" might be a bit strong but yeah, I know we can do better because we have done better in the past.

If you don't have a vision for a better future, what are you fighting for?

Sincere question.

-David

My gods, look at that guys head!!!

If he's not an extraterrestrial, then I'm Tony Danza!!!

Michale

Everything that comes out of your fingers is "fact challenged"...

It comes from making false accusations...

Get used to it, sunshine..

Weigantia is all about facts.. You ain't got any so you have to wax on and on about non-existent chat bots and Nazi-ism...

Michale

"Mr. Balko deserves a Pulitzer for that article. Some of the best reporting I've seen."

Agreed and yet reading it apparently makes actual people "fact-challenged" about completely unrelated topics!

JFC, non-state actor

Starting salary for a uniformed Police Officer w/o any experience is $40,000 per year..

That averages out to about $20 per hour...

So, you're telling me that it is reasonable to pay a 16 yr old to flip burgers the SAME pay as a cop on the streets...

Again, I have to ask... Where is the logic??

Michale

Good lord, no. Incentives matter. There will always be people who make more because they are doctors or engineers, etc.

I would like to live in a world though where a family could support itself on a single income.

Unfortunately, we can't have this because a couple hundred people have to be billionaires. And ... don't want to pay taxes.

Where are their "family values"? Where is their commitment to our country?

-David

Good lord. Of course not. Incentives matter.

There will always be people like doctors and engineers who make more.

It'd be nice to live in a world though where a family can survive on a single income.

We can't have that though because a couple hundred people need to be billionaires.

Where are their "family values"? How are they thinking about our country?

-David

So, all these whiners better shape up and be happy with what they have.. Or else, they might find their poor asses out on the street with NO JOB...

Michale

Are you HONESTLY going to tell me that you would be perfectly all right with that???

Michale

Yea, it's called "Utopia"... It only works if everyone is goodness and light and all pulls together and golly gosh geee willickers is just as sweet and giving as can be....

But, it's a dream.. It's a dream because there are too many Trayvon Martins in the world, too many Michael Browns in the world.. Too many people who are just lazy and mean and who want to do nothing but take everything...

If you want to fight for the reverse simply because you're mad at the kids these days (get off my lawn!!!), I guess that's your choice. But it doesn't make much sense to me.

It's not just kids. It's (supposed) adults who should KNOW better but are lazy and good for nothing anyways...

The difference between us, David is that you see the world as you wish it were.. You see goodness and light in everyone, except Republicans. :D

I see the world as it is.. And, in THAT world, the real world, you have the Trayvon Martins and the Michael Browns and the ones who want executive pay JUST for showing up...

I'll be honest and say that your world would be awful boring to me.. :D

Michale

I guess I think about things differently.

In the 1940s/50s/60s people believed that eventually technology would enable us to create a society where we worked less and spent more time on the things that matter to us.

We were going to have robots to do everything for us and we all could enjoy the benefits of such increased productivity. Remember, the Jetsons?

We've hit the point where we have a great deal of this technology.

How is it being used?

It's being used not to help provide better lives for people. But to make a few people extraordinarily wealthy.

It is also being used to make everyone else poor. The middle class in our country is completely disappearing.

Things don't have to be this way. We have a choice what we want our society to look like.

I think it would be great if we had a society where people got paid more and had to work less.

If you want to fight for the reverse simply because you're mad at the kids these days (get off my lawn!!!), I guess that's your choice. But it doesn't make much sense to me.

-David

Let's say you go to business school to learn the ins and outs of running a franchise. You spend 2-4 yrs at school learning....

You get hired on at a McDonalds.. You start at the bottom, work hard, pay your dues and, after 6-8 years of hard work and impressing the owners, you are promoted to Asst Manager and make $20 an hour...

And then you get some greedy lazy and selfish "workers" that want to be paid what YOU are paid, what you put in over a DECADE to *EARN* and they want it as ENTRY level pay...

Now, you tell me. How would that make you feel???

I can tell you how it would make you feel. It would make you feel like you just wasted over 10 years of your life, since now some lazy-assed punk with an attitude that the world owes them a living just waltzes in and gets paid the SAME amount that you worked over a decade to achieve...

Now, if you can see any logic in that scenario, by all means.. Point it out..

Michale

It goes back at least as far as Thoreau.

I don't have a problem with peaceful activism..

But the problem is many think that activism entails what happened in Ferguson or Times Square or Detroit...

Me too. All these people whining about their tax breaks and spending millions on lobbying to get out of their responsibility for our country drives me nuts.

At least those people EARNED their money and are providing jobs for others..

I am talking about the lusers who want $20 p/hour for flippin' burgers and emptying trash and will commit crimes and destruction if they don't get their way...

Michale

Peaceful activism, however, has a long tradition in our country.

It goes back at least as far as Thoreau.

And the Boston Tea Party folks went further. They protested unjust laws and the monopoly of the British East India Company by dumping tea in the harbor. And it wasn't just any tea. It was British East India Company tea.

Heck, you could say our country was founded by lawbreaking activists.

I guess a better way to say this is, I'm with you if laws are just.

I think it's more grey than you think though when laws are unjust. To use an extreme example, I wouldn't go along with Hitler's government. I don't think you would either. And crap, yes, I realize I've just brought Hitler into this. Truly, I've taken us to the bottom of the barrel :). For this, I apologize.

I have absolutely ZERO sympathy for whiners who just want things handed to them on a silver platter.

Me too. All these people whining about their tax breaks and spending millions on lobbying to get out of their responsibility for our country drives me nuts.

-David

Exactly..

And their grievances SHOULD be addressed at the voting booth..

NOT thru lawbreaking, violence and economic terrorism...

If their guys/gals don't win, then they should suck it up and wait until their next chance to exercise their vote...

But right now, they just look like spoiled brats with a buttload of sour grapes...

If they don't like their lot in life, CHANGE IT... WORK for it..

Don't just terrorize other people and destroy OTHER people's livelyhoods...

I am a perfect example of what hard work can accomplish.. I work at a FLEA MARKET fer chreest's sake! And I make enough to support TWO families...

I didn't whine and cry that I am not getting my due.. I didn't bitch and moan that society owes me a living..

I went out and made it happen.

I have absolutely ZERO sympathy for whiners who just want things handed to them on a silver platter..

Michale

It's not unaddressed. I just largely agree with you.

I believe people should be personally responsible.

I believe that people like Bill Cosby (for the most part; I only disagree with his criticism of activists) have a good message.

This shouldn't stop people from fighting to get paid better though. It shouldn't stop people from joining unions. It shouldn't stop us from finding ways to create more jobs.

It's not personal responsibility OR activism.

It's both.

Why is it somehow ok for a corporation to lobby government for the laws they want, but not ok for people?

Aren't we a country by and for the people?

I mean, you vote, right Michale? Shouldn't other people?

-David

If people aren't thankful for the jobs they have, regardless of pay, then they will find themselves out on the streets WITHOUT any job.. Replaced by workers who would KILL for a min wage job (5-10 million illegal immigrants) or replaced by automation or turning to thuggery and find themselves another Trayvon Martin or Michael Brown...

Michale

It's unfortunate, but this is the reality. It may not have been the reality you & I faced, but it is the reality of today.

Well, then there is a problem.. Because it makes NO SENSE to raise min wage to executive pay. By default, EVERY OTHER pay scale must rise as well..

Regardless, I don't believe it's the reality..

If people can't find a job, they can MAKE a job...

Regardless of THAT, the solution is not just to give handouts and make people dependent on government..

All that does is create a slave class...

You seem like a moral person, Michale. Families aren't breaking up because they're black.

Of course families aren't breaking up because they are black. They are breaking up because there is no honor or work ethic amongst the families that DO break up...

It's a GIMME GIMME GIMME culture that Democrats foster to enslave voters...

Michale

My bad ...

Except they are for many people.

Because there aren't enough well paying jobs for everyone.

It's unfortunate, but this is the reality. It may not have been the reality you & I faced, but it is the reality of today.

This is why we should be doing two things: 1) fighting for livable wages, and 2) creating higher paying jobs.

What we're doing instead is outsourcing more jobs and putting ever more downward pressure on wages here in our country.

This is largely because our National Chamber of Commerce and other industry groups have stopped caring about our country.

If you can make enough to support a family, wouldn't this help families stay together?

You seem like a moral person, Michale. Families aren't breaking up because they're black. They're breaking up because people have to do insane things like work 3 jobs.

I don't have grand kids. But if I did, I wouldn't want this situation for them.

-David

People got paid better for doing the jobs that warranted better pay...

Min wage jobs are not designed to be careers.. They are designed to be stepping stones to better pay...

But people are lazy and want better pay without doing more work...

If you want better pay, then work harder, go to school, learn new skills and THEN get the better pay...

Anything else simply breeds selfish lusers who want everything handed to them on a silver platter..

AKA Democrats.. :D

Michale

I thought you supported families, Michale.

If you support families, shouldn't people be able to earn a living wage?

Weren't our families a lot better off when people were getting paid better?

Just sayin' ...

-David

I was reading how Fast Food workers are, once again, whining that they can't make executive wages flipping burgers...

Well, fine...

http://www.businessinsider.com/momentum-machines-burger-robot-2014-8

Fire them all and replace them with robots..

Michale

Mr. Balko deserves a Pulitzer for that article. Some of the best reporting I've seen.

-David

You seem to be fact-challenged...

Under Obama, The Rich Get Richer
http://tinyurl.com/kz7wfnn

Nuttin but facts...

Michale

Michale

And yet, under Obama and the Democrats, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer....

You seem to be fact-challenged...

Michale

Fed: Under Obama, only the richest 10 percent saw incomes rise
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/sep/4/incomes-fell-most-families-past-three-years-while-/

Looks like it's Obama and the Democrats who are billionaires best friends.. :D

Somewhat of a discrepancy between your position and the facts, eh? :D

Michale

Fed: Under Obama, only the richest 10 percent saw incomes rise

Do you see the problem??

You complain about billionaires and the 1% and you fault Republicans for that..

But the evidence clearly shows that it's Obama and the Democrats who are a billionaires best friends...

Michale

Tell ya what... when you start complaining about the LEFT Winger billionaires that are looting the country, we can discuss that...

Fed: Under Obama, only the richest 10 percent saw incomes rise

Do you see the problem??

You complain about billionaires and the 1% and you fault Republicans for that..

But the evidence clearly shows that it's Obama and the Democrats who are a billionaires best friends...

Michale

Tell ya what... when you start complaining about the LEFT Winger billionaires that are looting the country, we can discuss that...

Fed: Under Obama, only the richest 10 percent saw incomes rise
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/sep/4/incomes-fell-most-families-past-three-years-while-/

Do you see the problem??

You complain about billionaires and the 1% and you fault Republicans for that..

But, as we see, it's Obama and the Democrats who are at fault..

Michale

Why is this happening if it's the RIGHT that is to blame for all the country's ills???

Michale

For example....????

Good question. Maybe because it distracts from the billionaires looting our country.

Tell ya what... when you start complaining about the LEFT Winger billionaires that are looting the country, we can discuss that...

Fair??? :D

Anyways ... it's been fun, Michale. Afraid we're at the point of repetitiveness though.

yep.. It always comes back to the idea that LEFT = GOOD RIGHT = EVIL..

Which I have proven false...

:D

Michale

Why?

Good question. Maybe because it distracts from the billionaires looting our country.

It's a shame they don't yell "Personal responsibility!" every time some billionaire wants another billion.

Anyways ... it's been fun, Michale. Afraid we're at the point of repetitiveness though.

-David

How about blaming the actors and musicians who glorify and romanticize thuggery and gangsta behavior??

Why not hold THEM culpable??

How about blaming the racist activists who fan the flames of racial hatred for fun and profit, where NO RACISM exists??

Why not hold THEM responsible...

The problem with the Left's approach to helping the black community is that the Left only concentrates on a small percentage of the problem and ignore the fact that, in the vast majority of cases, the black community is it's own worst enemy...

Sanford & Ferguson proved that beyond a shadow of a doubt...

Michale

Had to postpone it. Son came home from Alaska for a week or so....

Probably get to it tonight or Monday...

Michale

More evidence....

Michale

http://online.wsj.com/articles/juan-williams-ferguson-and-americas-racial-fears-1408490310

Read any opinion/commentary by Mr Bill Cosby...

That might have something to do with it, eh??

Michale

Yep. Economics can explain many things. Except why more black people are poor.

The reason is the same.

Well, then we have nothing to disagree about..

Because, as you say, black people/white people, the reasons are the same.. :D

In my opinion, there's plenty of work that needs to be done in our country. Roads and bridges that need repairing. New Internet infrastructure. Upgrading our power grid.

Hell, look around. Our country is falling apart. Why not pay people to fix it rather than putting people in jail?

Maybe because those people are guilty of crimes??

But other than that, I completely agree with you...

There are no jobs..

Which makes bringing in 5-8 million NEW workers to compete for those jobs makes absolutely NO logical sense...

It's amazing how it all ties together.. :D

Being a sarcastic ass aside, I see what you are saying..

And the solution would be chuck the political Partys and their self-serving agendas...

Michale

I know, right?

It sounds wrong at first. In agrarian countries, the logic was that children would help you on the farm.

You'd think this would change with the poor in developed countries. But it doesn't. The people having kids are the poor. People like Mike Judge have even joked about this in movies like "Idiocracy". Have you ever watched the first 10 minutes of this movie? It's hilarious. It also points at some of the possible reasons why. The biggest one I've heard has to do with education. Educated people who understand economics understand how many children they can afford.

So, it seems to me that the people who are having more children without a firm family structure should exhibit some self control and responsibility in NOT having children.

People will but only at a certain point of education and economic understanding.

So, why is it that THEY can make it, yet no other black person can?

Why aren't all white people as successful as Steve Jobs?

The reason is the same.

WANT more work harder to get it, rather than just give everyone a handout.

Which is great if there are jobs. The jobs simply don't exist though. And more and more they're being automated or moved overseas.

In my opinion, there's plenty of work that needs to be done in our country. Roads and bridges that need repairing. New Internet infrastructure. Upgrading our power grid.

Hell, look around. Our country is falling apart. Why not pay people to fix it rather than putting people in jail?

-David

True, but the fact that there are successful black people PROVES that the problems that DO exist (if any) are not insurmountable..

IF ONE EXPENDS THE EFFORT

Sure, there is racism in the world. I am sure that Rice and King and Thomas and Cosby and Williams faced MUCH MORE racism in their day than faces black people today..

And yet.... They flourished.. They are the pinnacle of success in their respective fields...

The didn't ask for a handout.. They didn't demand their Obamaphones and their EBTs and their mortgages paid...

They succeeded DESPITE the racism..

The PROVED it can be done...

So, why is it that THEY can make it, yet no other black person can???

THAT is the question that you must satisfactorily answer, if you want to sell the myth that is Institutionalized Racism...

Where are the facts??

Not the "code words", not the phantom spittings or the non-existent slurs or any of that..

COLD... HARD... FACTS....

Because without facts, you have nothing but a theory... An unsupported and non-proven theory...

Michale

Apparently, you haven't read any of LD's posts and comments.. :D

Basically, what this means is that poor people have more children. In wedlock or out of wedlock. The reasons for this tend to be economic. When you are economically successful, it's not as important that you have children. You can depend on yourself in the future.

That makes absolutely NO SENSE whatsoever..

What you are saying is that people who CAN'T AFFORD to have children are having MORE children because they CAN'T AFFORD children..

If there is any logic to that claim, I would certainly like to hear it...

Unfortunately, our country is headed in the wrong direction. We're creating more poor people.

Agreed...

So, it seems to me that the people who are having more children without a firm family structure should exhibit some self control and responsibility in NOT having children..

If we want to fix these things, the way to do it is that we need to all share in the gains of our great country. We need to recognize not just the people at the top, but everyone who works.

or, better yet, let the people who WANT more work harder to get it, rather than just give everyone a handout...

That's why the Democrat Party has been so successful as of late..

They are the Free Ride Party, the Free Stuff Party...

Why work hard when Democrats will ensure that you get your fair share without even having to work for it!???

It used to be people had to WORK to get a piece of the American dream..

Now, Democrats are handing it out on a silver platter without any effort necessary..

The black community has simply traded one form of slavery and servitude for another...

It's an irony extremus that it's the Democratic Party who is responsible for both...

Anyways, good discussion. Much of this is why I'm so interested in economics. Because if you really want to talk about everything, that's where the action is.

You know that my view of economics is extremely simple, governed by common sense...

If you want to share in the dream then work for it..

Don't expect it to be handed to you w/o any effort.

Michale

Well, now we're getting somewhere.

Though the fact that there are successful black people doesn't mean there isn't a problem. Just like the fact that there are successful white doesn't mean the middle class isn't being gutted.

You're also going to have to show me an example of a "left winger" telling anyone that white people are holding them back for it to be true. C'mon, Michale. You're better than this!

No one is saying personal responsibility is bad. Hell, I'm a big believer. No one ever succeed without personal responsibility. I encourage it. The problem is that lots of people who are very responsible don't succeed. And it's getting worse. This is why we need more opportunity.

It's also why statistics and looking at the larger picture is so important.

If you look at birthrates overall around the world over the past 100 years, one of the things that stands out is the birthrate of developing countries vs. developed countries.

https://online.science.psu.edu/sites/default/files/biol011/Fig%201-11%20Distribution%20of%20World%20Population%20Growth.jpg

The birthrate of developed countries is relatively flat while the birthrate of developing countries is much higher.

Basically, what this means is that poor people have more children. In wedlock or out of wedlock. The reasons for this tend to be economic. When you are economically successful, it's not as important that you have children. You can depend on yourself in the future.

Where is all this going?

Well, the issues you're talking about are economic issues. People have less children out of wedlock when they are better off. There is less crime when people have good-paying jobs.

These aren't black issues though they may seem like black issues because a greater percentage of black people in our country are poor.

Martin Luther King, Jr. himself came to this conclusion shortly before he was shot. He realized that the best way to help black people was if there were less poor people.

Unfortunately, our country is headed in the wrong direction. We're creating more poor people.

And unfortunately, we'll see these problems you talk about affect poor whites. The recent heroin, meth, and prescription drug epidemic, for example, is mostly affecting poor white people.

*sigh*

If we want to fix these things, the way to do it is that we need to all share in the gains of our great country. We need to recognize not just the people at the top, but everyone who works.

This is why our country seemed much better off during the '50s and '60s when more people were being paid better.

If we really want to fix things, we need an economic system that doesn't work for just the couple hundred billionaires. Because that's how our system works now. These people are the new kings and queens.

Anyways, good discussion. Much of this is why I'm so interested in economics. Because if you really want to talk about everything, that's where the action is.

-David

When ya'all are asked to provide FACTS to support YA'ALL's talking points??

{{chiiirrrrrrpppppp}} {{{chiiiirrrrrrrppppp}}}

Nuttin' but crickets...

Funny how that is, iddn't it?? :D

Michale

Wingers don't want to talk about ANYTHING if it means taking personal responsibility..

Don't take my word for it.

Listen to Bill Cosby...

Listen to Clarence Thomas...

Listen to Juan Williams..

JFC,

For the record, those were Juan William's talking points, not Bill O'reilly's

Not that you have ever let FACTS get in the way of your hysterical spewings...

Michale

If you quote me, you're lying.

If you want to discuss the problems that plague the black community here in the United States, I am all for that..

I mean, after all, we can't SOLVE the problems unless we identify the problems, right??

So, let's discuss the 80% out of wedlock births in the black community.

Let's discuss the rampant drug use amongst the black community.

Let's discuss the black on black murder and assault rates that are an epidemic in the black community..

Whaa??

You don't want to discuss these things?? These are real and documented problems within the black community. Problems that the black community can address right now without ANY input or action from the mean, nasty, racist white people...

So, why not address THOSE problems??

Because I am willing to bet the farm that if the black community addresses THOSE problems, the alleged institutionalized racism that ya'all *think* is the problem (but cannot show ONE SINGLE INSTANCE of) will magically disappear...

Dr Benjamin Carson....

Bill Cosby....

Herman King....

Dr Martin Luther King....

Clarence Thomas...

Condeleeza Rice...

General Colin Powell...

Do you know what all these people have in common??

They are successful... And they ignored Left Wingers who told them that white people are holding them back...

So, yea.. I am all for talking about the problems that plague the black community..

But, we are going to talk about ALL the problems.. Not just the alleged problems that suit a particular political agenda...

You game???

Michale

It is agreed that the Sanford shooting and the Ferguson shooting had absolutely NOTHING to do with race..

Yet, ya'all want to use those incidents to highlight the alleged inequality based on race...

So, please explain how 2 incidents that have NOTHING to do with race, can prompt a discussion on alleged race-base inequality??

What is more likely is that wingers want to use ANY excuse to highlight alleged race-based inequality to further a political agenda regardless of the fact that race had nothing to do with the incidents cited..

Where is the logic in that??

Michale

http://www.inquisitr.com/1435685/justice-for-dillon-taylor-why-has-unarmed-white-man-fatally-shot-by-black-cop-in-utah-been-ignored/

Where's the equality??

From where I sit, ya'alls idea of "equality" seems to be just about skin color... :^/

Michale

I completely agree..

Equality IS the goal..

Ignoring the color of the skin and looking at the facts IS equality..

Sadly virtually every Weigantian failed the EQUALITY test in Ferguson and in Sanford..

Because, for them, in Ferguson and in Sanford, equality took a back seat to skin color.

That's been my point this entire time..

Officer Darren Wilson was white, so he was in the wrong. Michael Brown was black, so he was in the right..

George Zimmerman was white (even though he really wasn't) so he was in the wrong. Trayvon Martin was black, so he was in the right..

Where's the equality???

Michale

You sure do pull some strange things from what other people say, Michale.

I believe in equality. I fight for equality.

And I know racism exists because I struggle with it having come from a family that also struggles. My mom would lock the car doors in broad daylight in the mall parking lot if a black person walked by. Both of my grandfathers spoke of "those people" ruining their small town when they moved in. My father never took us to New York City even though we grew up about 2 hours away because he thought the entire city was nothing but black crime.

When we moved out of NY, we moved to a white suburb of Cincinnati for "good schools". Good schools was code for "white" schools.

I've lived now in the city in a much more racially diverse neighborhood now for over 20 years. I've never experienced any problems or issues. The crime rate is likely higher in the city but that's more because there are pockets of poorer neighborhoods. As areas in the suburbs have fallen from the middle class, their crimes rates have increased.

Just the other night though, after our Labor Day fireworks, an incident happened that reminded me of my struggle. I was biking home from downtown following one of the city bike paths. Halfway home there's a stretch where I needed to cut over off the bike path for a quarter mile.

This part is through a bit of a rundown neighborhood and it was midnight. People had been drinking for hours at Riverfest and were on their way home. These were the only people on the road. I stopped at a red light and a beat up Honda Civic pulled up next to me.

I looked over and there were two black men in their twenties in the car. The one in the passenger seat was rolling down the window. He leaned out and I tensed, expecting some kind of trouble.

"You need to get a mutha-fuckin' light," he said, "We almost ran you over."

For a second I wasn't quite sure what to say. Then I realized he was right. It probably would be hard to see me without a bike light. I did need a motherf*cking bike light.

"I'm sorry," I said. "Thank you for not running me over."

He looked a little surprised. Almost as if he were expecting a fight. At the very least, he wasn't expecting an apology.

Not sure himself what to say, he rolled the window up and they drove off.

The incident reminded me though that I struggle to overcome perceptions I've learned growing up. I was successful in this instance.

My experience has been that when you respect people, you typically gain respect in return. So that's how I try to live my life.

I believe in equality. At heart, we're all pretty much the same. We all want basically the same things.

This belief in equality is a relatively new thing. Our founders said it, but when they said "All men are created equal" they really meant white men. Not women. Not black people. And certainly not the people who'd been living in this country before they arrived. At they time they said it, it meant about 5% of the country.

Still, by saying it, and by putting it into our founding documents they set in motion fights to make it real. Women have gained the right to vote. African-Americans have gained the right to vote. Etc, etc.

It was an incredibly novel idea at the time. All men are equal and should govern themselves. The king had to have been pissed. It's an idea I still believe in and feel worth fighting for. We are equal and should govern ourselves.

Now when I say "equality" of course I don't mean that everyone is going to be exactly equal. But the gaps should be much closer than they are. An average black family has a net worth of about $6,000. The average white family $110,000. Whites, on average, own more than 18 times as much as blacks. The average during apartheid in South Africa was 15 times.

There are still some very real economic and social divides and I know we can do better.

That's what I fight for. Whether you're with me or not I'll fight. It's why I often think we'd be better off simply picking people from the phone book to represent us.

And I hope you understand that this doesn't mean anti-white. Equality is not a zero sum game.

-David

Ya'all are on the losing side of this issue..

I mean, look at it..

Ya'all are fighting for the right to accuse people of being racists without ANY facts or evidence to back up such an accusation..

Do you REALLY want to go on record defending such a right??

"You have no right to dictate to our Federation how to handle their interstellar relations! We have the right..."
"...to wage war, Captain? To kill millions of innocent people? To destroy life on a planetary scale? Is that what you're defending?"
-Star Trek TOS, ERRAND OF MERCY

Is THAT the right ya'all want to defend??

The right to accuse anyone of racism without ANY facts or evidence to support such an accusation??

Is that what ya'all are defending??

Michale

Especially where there IS no racism..

Honestly...

If you are going to accuse someone of being a racist, doesn't it seem reasonable that you be ABSOLUTELY sure of the accusation and have a plethora of facts to back it up??

Doesn't THAT make more sense than just tossing out the accusation on a whim with absolutely no thought whatsoever???

I'm just sayin'.....

Michale

Especially where there IS no racism..

Honestly...

If you are going to accuse someone of being a racist, doesn't it seem reasonable that you be ABSOLUTELY sure of the accusation and have a plethora of facts to back it up??

Doesn't THAT make more sense than just tossing out the accusation on a whim with absolutely no thought whatsoever???

I'm just sayin'.....

Michale

Such as ... ?

The one other big factor tends to be socioeconomic. That is, poor people tend to commit more crimes and statistically black people tend to be worse off (which in and of itself is a whole different problem).

Studies typically account for the socioeconomic factors.

What factors are you think of?

-David

Especially where there IS no racism..

Such as the Sanford and Ferguson shootings..

But neither can you prove the opposite by the same standards.

You can't prove a negative..

The only thing you can do is to prove that racism WAS the factor in the shootings..

But, of course, to do that, to prove that racism was a factor, you would have to have evidence..

But you have no evidence..

And, in light of the FACT that there is NO EVIDENCE to support the claim of racism, racism was not a factor..

See how easy that is?? :D

Michale

The subject was the Sanford and Ferguson shootings..

And you HAVE no facts for me to ignore..

. I can't prove 100% that racism was a cause in either incident. But neither can you prove the opposite by the same standards.

I can unequivocally state with complete and utter certainty that there is absolutely NO credible or substantiated evidence that would indicate that racism had ANYTHING to do with the Michael Brown or Trayvon Martin shooting..

THAT is fact...

Now, you can argue and debate what the definition of "is" is until the cows come home..

But that won't change the fact that you have absolutely NO evidence to support your claim..

And I have PLENTY of evidence to support my claims...

Michale

Changing the subject and ignoring the facts.

Typical. Yawn...

akadjian spelled it out quite well. It's difficult to prove individual cases of racism. Can I prove that Zimmerman would have done the exact same thing if a white kid was walking through the complex at night or the ferguson cop would hassle a white kid jayhwalking in the exact same way? Unlikely unless they were seen acting or not acting in the same situation. But it's also difficult to disprove them as well. Institutional racism on the other hand is much easier and pretty overwhelming here and the overzealous use of force in both cases damming. I can't prove 100% that racism was a cause in either incident. But neither can you prove the opposite by the same standards.

You claimed that the Sanford and Ferguson shootings of Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown respectively, that racism was a factor..

Do you have ANY credible and substantiated evidence to support your claim??

{{cchhhiiiiirrrrrrppppppp}} {{chirrrrrppppppp}}

A simple no will suffice....

Michale

94% white police force in a 2/3 black community. Protests and riots (the shooting was the spark not the reason). Tales of police abuse of black suspects (assault on a police officer because he dared to bleed on the officers uniforms after being beaten). Just about every black person interviewed mentions the problems. Last year, black residents accounted for 86% of the vehicle stops made by Ferguson police and nearly 93% of the arrests made from those stops, according to the state attorney general. FBI statistics show that 85% of the people arrested by Ferguson police are black, and that 92% of people arrested specifically for disorderly conduct are black.

How much more do you need? Sounds pretty institutional to me...

I would agree with that, absolutely..

Now, provide an example of that with the facts to back it up..

Such as we saw in the Ferguson and Sanford shootings....

And where are your facts to back it up??

{{chirrrrpppp}} {{{chiiirrrrrpppp}}}

Non-existent...

Cricket city......

Michale

Such as we saw in the Ferguson and Sanford shootings....

Maybe there is a reason for that...

Maybe, it's because the vast majority of the cases that wingers THINK is racism, really isn't..

Hmmmmm????

Michale

Would you also agree that the black community and the Left Wingers in general do themselves damage their own cause greatly by screaming "RACISM!!!" where no racism exists??

Such as we saw in the Ferguson and Sanford shootings....

Michale

It's like Bigfoot.. It's fun to theorize about the existence of the Sasquatch...

But if there isn't any real, concrete, reliable evidence to support the existence of Bigfoot, then it's nothing more than wishful thinking..

So it is with racism amongst Left Wingers...

I mean, imagine the outcry if all the obamaphones and food stamps and affirmative action and all the other free stuff were to simply cease...

What a world it would be if the color of one's skin is completely and utterly irrelevant, eh???

But we're never going to get there if Left Wingers don't quit making a racial incident where absolutely no racism exists..

We're never going to get there is scumbag racists like Al -Tawana Brawley- Sharpton and Ben -Ambulance Chaser- Crump are allowed to continue to fan the flames of racial hatred for fun and profit..

Surely you can see that the liks of Sharpton and Crump are part of the problem, NOT part of the solution, eh???

Michale

Key word there being "IF"...

If you can't provide evidence of existence, then how can I entertain the possibility??

It was a great individual accomplishment but I don't see how this has anything to do with the systemic problem in our justice system. The statistics didn't change a bit.

That's because you refuse to consider any other factors besides racism..

Once again, it's ALL about the color of the skin..

They're black, so it MUST be racism... It "can't" be anything BUT racism..

That is where your error is..

GIGO

Garbage in, Garbage out.

You start with a conclusion and then find the evidence to support the conclusion and ignore the evidence that disproves the conclusion..

It's the Demcorat way... :D

Michale

It's a quite logical statement. If institutionalized racism exists, there must be individual cases of it.

And when you see such excessive violence for something like jaywalking. Or even for the "assault" described by the officer. You have to admit, it's not standard police procedure.

Institutionalized racism is dead. It died the day this country elected a black president.

It was a great individual accomplishment but I don't see how this has anything to do with the systemic problem in our justice system. The statistics didn't change a bit.

-David

Apparently, it's even MORE difficult to prove institutionalized racism, because there is no evidence of that in the here and now either..

Institutionalized racism is dead. It died the day this country elected a black president..

Michale

That's a political statement, not a scientific one..

If there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE of a racial component in the Ferguson shooting, you can't claim ANY connection between it and the systemic problem, likely or otherwise...

In other words, you can't say they are connected just because you WANT them to be connected.

You have to have evidence..

And there is none..

Unless you follow YoYo's line of reasoning that a black person is involved so it HAS to be racism..

You, being the logical person I know you to be, would not subscribe to such trash...

:D

Excellent ... these issues need to be addressed at a much higher level than individual instances.

OK, then lets start by addressing the possibility of OTHER factors in the statistics you subscribe to..

Michale

Unfortunately, systemic problems manifest themselves in very real ways.

What I will agree is that it is very difficult to prove an individual instance of racism.

We know something is rotten because we see it in the statistics. So we know individual cases happen. But to prove it in an individual instance typically requires a confession from the aggressor about his or her motive.

A more logical conclusion would be: "It's likely that the Ferguson shooting is an example of a systemic problem."

I'll be happy to move on to your alleged "systemic problem.

Excellent ... these issues need to be addressed at a much higher level than individual instances.

-David

Is there ANY other factor that could explain the high crime rate amongst black people??

For example, 80% of black children are born out of wedlock with no family structure whatsoever??

Isn't it possible that THAT could that be a factor in the high crime rate amongst black people??

That's kind of my point about the whole issue..

You WANT it to be about the color of the skin, in violation of MLK's quote..

Therefore you ignore OTHER possible contributing factors..

Michale

OK, let's examine that..

You are saying that racism is a systemic problem..

From your lack of response regarding evidence of racism in the Ferguson and Sanford shootings, I can only conclude that you concur that racism had nothing to do with Ferguson and Sanford..

Ergo, the only logical conclusion is that your "systemic problem" has nothing to do with Ferguson or Sanford..

I believe we are talking about 2 entirely different things.

yes, we are..

if you want to concede that racism had nothing to do with Ferguson and Sanford, I'll be happy to move on to your alleged "systemic problem"...

Why? Because your position has nothing at all to do with the systemic problems within our justice system.

Hallelujah!!!! :D

Common ground..

So, we agree that "my issue" (Sanford and Ferguson) have "nothing at all to do with" YOUR issue of the alleged systemic problem of racism...

"Detente.. It's a wonderful thing."
-Maureen Robinson, LOST IN SPACE

Michale

Perhaps not to you. But to me they indicate a systemic problem.

People are people and commit crimes at similar statistical levels.

If they are treated at disproportionately different levels, that says there is bias in the system.

Statistical evidence indicates a racist bias in our justice system.

I am arguing that the Ferguson shooting and the Sanford shooting has absolutely NOTHING to do with race.

I believe we are talking about 2 entirely different things.

If you have any evidence that shows my position is false, aire it.

I have no interest in arguing with you one way or another about your position.

Why? Because your position has nothing at all to do with the systemic problems within our justice system.

-David

Where is your credible evidence that it would be a crime??

Michale

Do those statistics you quote take into account the people who are actually guilty??

This debate isn't about statistics.. It's about whether or not you have any evidence that race had anything to do with the Ferguson and Sanford shootings..

Do you??

To repeat, black people are jailed at a rate 6 times higher than that of whites.

What about their guilt??

Why is the color of their skin the only relevance in your book???

Why are we putting so many people in jail, especially black people?

Are black people guilty???

What this all boils down to is simple..

You are judging people by the color of their skin..

I am judging people by their actions..

You may be right with your statistics, but that is not what I am arguing..

I am arguing that the Ferguson shooting and the Sanford shooting has absolutely NOTHING to do with race..

If you have any evidence that shows my position is false, aire it..

But you don't..

All you have is the hysterical "OH MY GODS, THINK OF THE BLACK PEOPLE" non-argument..

Michale

I know, I know. Right?

I would, but not as a social issue. It would be a crime. Albeit a particularly violent one which might generate more than the usual sympathy.

So why would I (or anyone else for that matter) care so much about the Michael Brown killing?

Because it's symbolic of the statistics I cited earlier.

Because the justice system for white people is not the same as the justice system for black people.

To repeat, black people are jailed at a rate 6 times higher than that of whites.

Out of 2.3 million people in jail, 1 million of them are black. And the U.S. has 25% of the world's prisoners with only 5% of the world's population.

Why are we putting so many people in jail, especially black people?

Especially when crime is committed pretty equally by race.

Why do we have two justice systems, one for whites and one for blacks?

-David

What *IS* it with you people that you just can't help but interject skin color into incidents that have NOTHING to do with skin color??

"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
-Dr Martin Luther King JR

Doesn't that MEAN anything at all to you people??

Michale