Permanent??

Naaw.. :D

There is no treaty or US law that prevents inflicting damage on terrorists to prevent further terrorist attacks, so we're good there...

Technology of warfare changes fairly rapidly, but the basic principles of effective war making do not. Same with interrogation. The old Wizard of Id comic strips pretty much cover all the basics.

Now, you have switched tracks..

We're not taking conventional warfare...

We're talking counter-terrorism...

I hear your assurances, but what scientific evidence exists that torture produces better intelligence than less extreme forms of coercion?

Nothing succeeds like success...

I can point to many operations (Bin Laden takedown anyone??) that were the direct result of torturing terrorists.. Of course, such evidence was immediately back-tracked on by the current administration to appease the bleeding hearts..

I would also point to the fact that there has never been a successful terrorist attack on US proper since 9/11...

Such an outstanding success ratio doesn't happen just by being lucky...

You can make a pretty good case that it produces worse intelligence, by decreasing the signal to noise ratio.

To the un-trained, perhaps..

A well-trained interrogator can learn to disregard the chaff... As I said, today's interrogation techniques are not about gleaning intel.. The "ticking time bomb" scenario, while great fun on TV and in the movies, rarely happens in real life...

Today's interrogators are after co-operation.. Once that is obtained, the intel flows freely and willingly..

Anyhow, we have gotten far off topic.

I was just demonstrating how a good interrogator obtains co-operation... :D

Michale

Anyhow, we have gotten far off topic. NSA gathers electronic signals, it isn't torturing anybody.

You have introduced a frame shift from torture to coercion. Torture is a form of coercion, but there is no universal agreement of the boundary between the two.

As a practical matter, are you advocating use of "extreme" techniques that violate US law or US treaty obligations? Techniques that cause permanent physical or mental damage to the subject of interrogation?

Technology of warfare changes fairly rapidly, but the basic principles of effective war making do not. Same with interrogation. The old Wizard of Id comic strips pretty much cover all the basics.

I hear your assurances, but what scientific evidence exists that torture produces better intelligence than less extreme forms of coercion? You can make a pretty good case that it produces worse intelligence, by decreasing the signal to noise ratio.

I have a problem with faith based approaches to anything. If we are going to disavow US law and US treaty obligations, shouldn't we have a lot of evidence that there is a big payoff?

I submit that A> McCain knows about torture as far as the receiving end, which is much MUCH different than on the application end..

And B> What McCain experienced was torture as applied by old school barbarians who are like the villains that the Left assumes ALL people who apply coercive interrogations are..

I can say with complete and utter conviction that comparing techniques used in McCain's military days to what we have in the here and now is like comparing a musket weapon of the Revolutionary War er to the Laser/Rail guns of the US Navy in the here and now...

We're a lot more... er.. civilized about it today.. :D

As I mentioned above, back then it was all about extracting information..

These days, that is secondary, albeit still the ultimate goal..

Michale

reference John McCain, who knows a thing or two about torture.

Michale

In the real world, you have your CARRIE MOSSes who think it's horrific to torture people.. Who believe that NOTHING justifies torture..

And yet, when you have a nuclear device that is set to detonate and torturing a scumbag terrorist raises the odds of stopping the device......

Well, to a simple knuckle-dragger like me, it's a no-brainer..

The concept of THE ENDS JUSTIFIES THE MEANS *is* a valid concept in real life...

I would think that you Lefties, of all people, would realize that, since it is now part and parcel to the Democratic Party Platform..

I mean, look at it.. The "ends" was universal healthcare...

The "means" was totally screwing over the American Middle Class....

If that ain't THE ENDS JUSTIFIES THE MEANS, what is???

Michale

I can assure you with complete and utter certainty that torture is 100% effective at what it does..

You need to realize that torture is not about eliciting intel or information. It's only in the movies and on TV that torture is used for that. The intel and the information come later and it is freely and willfully given w/o any coercive means whatsoever..

Torture is wholly and completely about one thing and one thing only.

Co-operation...

That's it.. That is the entire raison d'être behind torture...

Once co-operation is established, that's when the intel flows and flows freely...

Michale

Report and Recommendations of
The President’s Review Group on Intelligence
and Communications Technologies

http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/docs/2013-12-12_rg_final_report.pdf

page 58, what I would call the Levi Principle, implemented in the Domestic Security Investigation Guidelines Attorney General Levi issued in 1976.

"the protection of civil liberties demands not only compliance with the Constitution, but also
a restrained use of government power, undertaking what we would describe as a form of risk management."

That's what I was looking for from the President. What I heard was carefully calibrated political triangulation around the core issues.

Michael, Unthinkable is a red herring regarding NSA, it basically casts doubt on the efficacy of torture in a "ticking bomb" scenario.

I'll say one thing.

Obama owes President Bush a big... a HUGE apology... :D

Michale

http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13921021000393

There ARE aliens among us!!! :D

Michale

Find an older Samuel L Jackson movie called UNTHINKABLE and watch it...

It will be a real eye opener for you...

Michale

Apparently, it's one of the VERY few promises that our Government has actually DELIVERED on...

And yea.. I appreciate the irony of ME pointing that out. :D

Michale

I seriously doubt either the Congress or the Supreme Court has the stomach to push back in a meaningful way. The historical trend line is pretty clear.

As a nation, we seem content to trade some freedom for for a promise of more security. Sad. That's what I'm feeling.

It left intact every single intelligence gathering device..

Speaking as a representative of the intelligence community to Weigantia, I couldn't be happier...

Basically, the message to the American people from the Intelligentsia is this:

We got this. We'll save yer ass whether you like it or not. Calm down. Nothing to see here... Move along... .

I could not be prouder of my POTUS than I am right now... :D

Granted, that doesn't say very much... But, it's the thought that counts... :D

Michale

Besides my incessant whining, I mean.. :D

It's that, under Bush, the Left had a MORAL argument. They were completely and utterly wrong, but they had a firm and steadfast MORAL argument and I respected that. I disagreed with the argument, felt it was borne of ignorance, but I had absolutely NO REASON to doubt the sincerity of the morality..

Until now..

Moral arguments are absolute. They are not open to interpretation, they are not ambiguous, they are not equivocal, they are not situational, they are not subject to the whim of a political agenda..

Moral arguments are absolute.

Black and White.

Right and Wrong.

Every moral argument the Left has ever had against Bush has been completely and utterly exposed for the creepy underhanded political-agenda-based fraud that it was..

It's so..... so...... disappointing..

Michale

When Bush was caught doing much watered down versions of these actions, the entire Left screamed "IMPEACH DA WAR CRIMINAL!!" from the highest towers...

Such impeachment of Bush talk even pervaded Weigantia and made for an honorable mention in the vaunted MIDOTW award..

Yet, there is absolutely NO TALK from the Left about impeaching Obama over these actions..

If I recall correctly (and I usually do) ya'all commented time and time again during the Bush years how you simply could NOT understand how anyone could so blindly follow a President, despite CRIMINAL acts being committed. Ya'all simply could not fathom such blind loyalty..

Well, I guess ya'all can fathom it now, eh?

Funny, iddn't it?? :^/

I'm not exactly holding my breath,

I wouldn't.. According to advance reports, Obama is basically going to say, "Yea, these things are bad but they are necessary and they will continue"..

He may commission another panel here or there, but nothing of any consequence is going to change..

And the Left won't say squat and will still blindly follow Obama in all that he does..

Different issue, Same tune...

Party uber alles...

Michale

And when it doesn't happen ya'all will still follow Obama.

Ya'all will still support him unequivocally in everything he does.

Ya'all will still completely and utterly defend Obama in everything he does..

I have asked before and never got an answer...

Is there ANYTHING Obama can do that will cause ya'all to cease supporting him??

Do ya'all even HAVE a "red line" when it comes to Obama??

Put another way..

In 2007, what would you have thought if I had laid out all the actions that Obama has taken vis a vis drone usage, domestic surveillance, national security letters, all of it... I laid out ALL of this to ya'all back in 2007 and I told ya'all that you would, unequivocally and without even a whimper of protest support the POTUS who does all of these things and more...

Would you have believed me??

I don't really expect an answer..

Which pretty much IS my answer...

Michale

I'm not exactly holding my breath, but I really hope this happens tomorrow, too.

-CW