Nice. I like how you've setup your help desk forum. You also do a really good job w/ usability. Meaning that you don't try to do too much with the site. This is the biggest mistake I've seen people make. I'm actually working w/ a client right now on this very issue :)

From a graphic design standpoint, I'm not the biggest fan. But that's probably a nit. It's also something you can always change w/ a different theme at a later point.

Nice work ... get the rest of your content up there! :)

-David

Just because it ain't Single Payer, doesn't make it conservative..

Ya gotta remember. Obama ain't the middle class warrior ya'all want him to be..

He is bought and paid for by corporate interests..

BTW, lemme know what you think about the site redesign. Just finished a complete makeover

I'll show you mine if you show me yours. :D

http://mfccfl.us

To be more accurate, I'll critique yours if you critique mine...

Aside to CW.. You should like that site too.... :D

Michale
111

No it doesn't have everything conservatives wanted. But is ain't single payer either.

Must be a universal trait of fathers, eh? :D

Heheh ... I think so. He was a master of the classics like that and "As long as you live under this roof ..." LOL

But I'll be damned if I give DK a single click.. :D

Sorry, mate. I cross posted it on my site earlier this morn.

http://akadjian.com/2013/12/im-tired-explaining-conservative-health-care-law-conservatives/

BTW, lemme know what you think about the site redesign. Just finished a complete makeover

-David

Daily Kos is afraid of me writing, they don't deserve to have me read it...

Now, if you posted it to your OWN site, I'll read it..

But I'll be damned if I give DK a single click.. :D

Especially if they're going to non-stop cry and whine about it. Or, as my Dad used to say, I'll give you something to really cry about :)

Yers too!!???

Must be a universal trait of fathers, eh? :D

My only point (and it's a damn valid one too) is why, if this is conservative, did only Democrats pass it??

If it were TRULY conservative health care, then it would have tort reform and state lines obliterated.

It don't, so it ain't.. :D

Michale
109

Conservatives only support any health care reform at all when single payer solutions are on the table.

The minute Democrats supported something conservative, conservatives jumped further to the right and attempted once again to move the goal posts.

Which is why I think we need to put these solutions back on the table.

Especially if they're going to non-stop cry and whine about it. Or, as my Dad used to say, I'll give you something to really cry about :)

-David

If it's a "CONSERVATIVE" Health Care law, why was it only passed solely and exclusively by Democrats??

Huh????? :D

Michale
108

Naaaw, it's what happens in SPITE of ya not being around! :D

In other words, the discussion would be a LOT better if ya were here... :D

Michale
107

Because I'm tired of explaining a conservative health care law to conservatives

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/12/04/1259925/-Because-I-m-tired-of-explaining-a-conservative-health-care-law-to-conservatives

I think it fits in quite well, CW, with the idea of continuing to improve things and it's received a bit of play on the Interwebs :)

Check out if you're interested and hope to be around more as the holidays approach!

-David

A couple people mentioned one of my favorite arguments for single payer: that the incentives for private insurance companies are often at odds with the idea of actually providing health care. That is, you make more money by not providing it.

Paula [13] First, there's the "problem" of whether healthcare and profits make a moral mix.

Liz [10] - I think most of the problems inherent with the ACA revolve around the central issue that healthcare and health insurance are not easily or ideally dealt with by the private insurance industry.

One of the things that hit me the other day is that, isn't it great we're even having this conversation and not talking trying to end some stupid war? How far we've come ...

-David

For years, ya'all have been going on and on about the Republicans and their "War On Women"...

NOW we have Democrats and their "War On Young People"...

bortaS bIr jablu'DI' reH QaQqu' nay'
-Old Klingon Proverb

:D

Michale
105

Actually, obeying laws is not optional.

Really???

Tell that to Obama....

asically, the max fine a few years out is about the same as the insurance. So what's the better payoff - litigation/bigger fines/etc, or bronze insurance?

Ahhhh, but there is a flaw in your logic..

If enough Young Invincibles opt out of obamacare, then obamacare will die.

If obamacare dies then there won't BE any fines..

Kicks in the butt are a useful, if unwelcome form of feedback.

True... But, if you have your head buried in the sand, the kick in the butt can do some major damage... :D

Michale

That's very Rumsfeldian....for the love of God, don't go down THAT linguistic path!

Kicks in the butt are a useful, if unwelcome form of feedback. I've been involved in a lot of big projects, never in the process have I not been kicked multiple times. If you're not being kicked, you're doing something easy. Reforming health care is hard.

Being kicked is no shame...it's how well you respond to the kicks that's important. Getting kicked twice or more for the same thing is bad. Still, even that isn't necessarily fatal if caught and corrected.

Americans are good at muddling through, we get it from our British connections. Nobody is quite as brilliant as the British at muddling through a crisis, but we're good.

Actually, obeying laws is not optional. At least without expecting to pay the penalty of exercising your option.

They (They being the Feds) got Al Capone on tax evasion.

Most Invincibles aren't aren't going to put up that big a stink. Those that do are probably already singing with Republican choir. Basically, the max fine a few years out is about the same as the insurance. So what's the better payoff - litigation/bigger fines/etc, or bronze insurance?

Oh I admit, that there IS good news out there. And it IS getting better.

But there is still a buttload (it's an industry term. :D) of pitfalls both known and unknown that are being ignored...

And, when ya start ignoring the bad news, it has a tendency to come up behind ya and plant a boot in yer arse, by way of letting you know it's still around.. :D

Michale

A new California poll just showed that, out here, 72% of young uninsured people say they're going to sign up for new Obamacare insurance. So maybe we need to see a wider selection of polls (and some hard figures) before we leap to snap judgments. In both CA and KY, the proportion of people signing up who are young is the same proportion as in the whole population.

-CW

"Now, children. You *MUST* obey the law!!"

Yea...

THAT is going to go over like a ton of bricks...

Michale

Without the Young Invincible demographic, obamacare dies..

You will NEVER be able to fine people enough to make up for their refusal to join in obamacare..

If you attempt it, then they will just not pay the fines..

You move to punish them???

That will send them in droves to the GOP...

Like I said, Obama and the Democrats can only kick people in the teeth so much before they get pissy about it....

It's a Lose/Lose/Lose situation for Obama and the Democrats...

Again, I have no problem acknowledging the good..

But let's see someone here discuss the security issues..

Let's compare good news to bad...

Any takers?? :D

Michale

Here's another fact for you to ignore or discount:

29,000 people successfully signed up for insurance on HC.gov in the first two days after the v1.1 rollout. Not bad, eh? More than all of Oct, just on Sunday and Monday.

-CW

What a clown...

CW,

OK, I'll toss you a bone, because you brought up the Titanic. The funniest joke I heard in the last two months re: Obamacare website failures?

You're welcome.

Thank you.. :D

But the ship has left Cobh ("Cove" to non-Gaelic speakers), and is steaming towards open ocean now....

And that pesky iceberg is STILL there...

And no crewman I.P. Freely this time around.. :D

Actually, out here in CA (where our website has been working well from the beginning), the proportion of youth signing up is exactly their proportion of the general population. So it's working fine, out here.

He did not mention the 1?million-plus in California whose policies have been cancelled, of course, but why should he? This was his day, his chance to shine, his turn to tell the story — it would be ungenerous to cavil.

You were saying??? :D

Michale

http://tinyurl.com/mgjknuz

Michale

This is the next big problem with obamacare...

obamacare is an identity thief's wet dream..

Total and complete disclosure of every American's most guarded and personal info with security that a 4yr old can defeat...

You watch. Security breaches will start up fast and furious over the next couple months.

You heard it here first...

Michale

Hay!! I resemble that remark!!! :D

Michale

I could agree with that plan..

But an even BETTER idea would have been to tie the release of funds to benchmarks..

For example, if Iran does A then we'll release a billion dollars.

When Iran does B then we'll release another billion dollars.

But Obama didn't do that. Obama gave Iran a huge chunk of their funds (8 BILLION dollars) and all Iran had to do was promise to scale back..

Now Iran is even reneging on THAT agreement..

Don't even get me started on the fact that Obama has released some HVTs for Iran, but Iran is still illegally holding American citizens..

Obama needed a "win"..

But, as with many of Obama's "wins", the country and Americans lose...

And our allies in the region are thrown under the bus..

But Obama MUST have his "win" so he doesn't care what happens to anyone else...

This deal with Iran is a bad deal. From start to finish, it's a bad deal..

And, if it was ANYONE but Obama, ya'all would be in complete agreement with me...

Michale

RE: #54

"There you go again"
-Ronald Reagan

You claimed previously that ALL of the people who signed up for obamacare were uninsured..

Where are your facts to back that up??

That is the entire problem with your arguments.

They pull an alleged fact here and an alleged fact there and come up with a conclusion that is total hysterical emotionalism..

CW,

They also said their goal was 800K per day, and they successfully handled 1+ million on the first day.

There is no documented facts to show this to be true..

The only evidence is that the website STILL pukes at less than 30,000 users when it is designed to handle up to 50,000 users at a time..

If obamacare was a game rollout, what do you think the people would say??

The difference now (especially now, that the website is working) is that they can now shop around for a better deal.

Again, the facts say different.

They CAN'T get a "better deal"....

They are getting a WORSE deal.. A more expensive plan with less coverage, HIGHER deductible and chock full of crap they don't need..

Even if it WERE true that they were getting a better deal, that is beside the point.

The point is that Democrats and Obama said over and over and over again that if they like their plan, they can keep their plan..

#1 - true. But every single one of those millions are able to sign up for insurance today. Because of Obamacare. That wasn't true before this year.

At least YOU are not afraid to call a spade a spade.. :D Kudos..

But the plans that they can sign up for now are for the "vast majority" of Americans a LOT more expensive...

ALL because of obamacare

This is also true...

So, I'm waiting for you to acknowledge the good -- that they built dynamism into their simultaneous limit (with a backup system to handle overflow), and that they topped their daily goal.

Hay, it's not ME that has a problem with inconvenient facts..

And I'll prove it. Once again..

Yes, the website is working better than it did on 1 Oct...

But it still has a mass of problems including well-documented security issues..

NO ONE here wants to even TOUCH that...

Can you PROVE that those millions who got cancellation notices can't get better deals through the Obamacare website? No, you cannot.

Actually, I can. The "sticker shock" is well documented.

Put another way, for every "good" story (that someone is happy about their obamacare signup) that you can find, I have find FIVE "horror" stories..

I offered the game to DB, but....

"waaaa... no one wants to play wid me!"
-Ace Ventura

:D

So you're basically saying (while observing eggs):

Sorry to hit below the belt, but...

By all means. I earned that..

But, you must admit. My track record for the last six months or so has been dead on ballz accurate..

I called the shutdown.. I called the obamacare train wreck..

And I am confident that my 2014 mid-term prediction will also be dead on ballz accurate.. I have an ace up my sleeve..

Millions upon millions more Employer Plan cancellations right up to the mid-term election..

I can't lose!! :D

Unless, of course, Obama breaks the law.. AGAIN...

Countries with socialized medicine rank much higher in world health than the US does. Sorry, but it's a well-known fact.

And yet, there are thousands of thousands of documented cases where people in countries with socialized medicine are flocking to countries that have Private Market health care..

If socialized medicine is so good, why does this happen??

I am not being facetious.. I am sincerely curious.

I am always a fan of what works..

Ya'all say that Single Payer/Socialized Medicine is the greatest thing since skim milk..

And yet, there are thousands and thousands of documented FACTS that show the horror stories of such health care..

The problem here is not the health care..

The problem is the political agenda.

It's a CREDIBILITY issue...

You can see why I might not take the claims from the Left at face value..

I am more inclined to take the claims from the Right at face value because they, by and large, make sense.. They are logical and rational..

With the Left it's all "OH MY GODS, THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!" and "OH MY GODS, WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE IF WE DON'T PROSTRATE OURSELVES BEFORE THE KING OBAMA!!!"

With the Right it's (by and large) "Now, hold on a sec here's what is what" and stuff like that..

With me, cold logic and objectivity trumps hysterical emotionalism every time...

It's gonna be a fun month!!! :D

I'm going back to work on the pledge drive rollout now... hopefully it'll be better than healthcare.gov, right?

:-)

It would HAVE to be!! :D

Michale

They also said their goal was 800K per day, and they successfully handled 1+ million on the first day.

The jury's still out...

A general comment, as well. You keep repeating that millions are having their health plans cancelled. That is true.

But what is also true is that millions in the individual marketplace had plans cancelled every year, prior to this. The "churn" in this market is intense (look up some stats), and previous to this year, people with cancelled plans often had nowhere to turn (if they now had a pre-existing condition), or were offered more expensive plans by the same company. This was normal, and part of the status quo, pre-Obamacare.

The difference now (especially now, that the website is working) is that they can now shop around for a better deal. That was not true before, for millions of them. You continually harp on the millions of cancellations, without noting that these millions will now have a choice -- a choice that was previously denied to them, until Obamacare.

Up until now, the media stories about the cancelled plans have all focused on "my insurance company said they'd cover me with a 800% increase in price!" because the website was horked (that's a computer term), but now that they can shop around, many are discovering that they can get better insurance for less.

So you are ignoring the fact that NONE of the people "being thrown off their insurance" will be considered ineligible for insurance now. That simply was not true before Obamacare. And, speaking of political opportunism, I defy you to find ONE QUOTE -- just ONE, mind you -- from any Republican in the past five years acknowledging ANY ONE PERSON who had lost their insurance. Millions were thrown off their insurance in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, but I bet Republicans ignored this fact completely, until it was politically convenient for them to make a lot of political hay over it. Says something about their real priorities, doesn't it?

[22] -

I did and there are still millions and millions of Americans who have had their insurance cancelled because of obamacare.

True or false???

#1 - true. But every single one of those millions are able to sign up for insurance today. Because of Obamacare. That wasn't true before this year.

#2 - depends how you measure. The website was supposed to handle 50K simultaneously. But they obviously built flexibility into the system. When it showed signs of bogging down, they turned on the safety valve ("we'll send you an email when you're at the front of the queue"), and were able to adjust the level of the safety measure down to 35K on the fly. That's good programming -- anticipating problems before they happen. So if you measure by an absolute of 50K at once, they failed. But they also were aiming for 800K per day, and they hit 1+ million on the first day without major problems. So they were 125% successful on that metric.

So, I'm waiting for you to acknowledge the good -- that they built dynamism into their simultaneous limit (with a backup system to handle overflow), and that they topped their daily goal.

[23] -

OK, I'll toss you a bone, because you brought up the Titanic. The funniest joke I heard in the last two months re: Obamacare website failures?

"At least the Titanic made it out of the dock!"

You're welcome.

But the ship has left Cobh ("Cove" to non-Gaelic speakers), and is steaming towards open ocean now....

Paula [24], LizM [25] -

I'd also like to "fave" that comment, if the website could handle it... oh, wait...

Heh.

Hey, I'm still working on getting the holiday fundraiser up and running... (I promise: kittens... soon!).

:-)

Michale [26] -

Can you PROVE that those millions who got cancellation notices can't get better deals through the Obamacare website? No, you cannot. So stop with the sweeping challenges, my friend. Anecdotes are available from both sides, but either your challenge or mine is impossible to "prove" to every last member, sorry.

LizM [28] -

YES! I've been screaming this at my television screen for a while: "That's how ALL INSURANCE works -- people with low risk pay for the costs that high (and low) risk people incur during the year!" It's the basics of any "insurance pool." But try getting that point across to the American media...

(sigh)

Michale [29] -

So you're basically saying (while observing eggs):

"That's one chicken... there's two chickens... three chickens..."

May I remind you how well your predictions for Election Day 2012 worked out?

Sorry to hit below the belt, but...

Michale [30] -

For the same reason a 25-yr-old woman has to pay for prostate care insurance and a 27-yr-old athelete has to pay for heart disease insurance. Because that's the way insurance works -- it spreads the cost across as wide a pool as possible. The things you benefit from are paid for by others. Just as you pay for others' care that you don't need. It's a pretty basic concept.

LizM [32] -

Now, now -- I certainly can't expect Michale to start counting until I get the announcement up! I'm shooting for this Thursday, just for everyone's information...

:-)

Yes, there will be kittens.

nypoet22 [35] -

Oh, SNAP! Good one!

Heh.

Michale [36] -

See comment to LizM above. We'll start counting after the kickoff, no problem!

:-)

Anyone not familiar with what this conversation is about (new users in the past year, assumably), we're about to enter the period known around here as "Holiday Pledge Drive" where I beg all my readers for money to keep the site running. Michale bases his contributions on how many obnoxious comments he makes. Well, not really. I just added the word "obnoxious" there as icing on the cake, sorry. Anyway, what usually happens in December is it becomes "taunt Michale with lots of catnip in the comments" because we all know he's got to pay for it by the end of the month.

:-)

Time to get in the holiday spirit, in other words!

M [37] -

Actually, out here in CA (where our website has been working well from the beginning), the proportion of youth signing up is exactly their proportion of the general population. So it's working fine, out here.

And while you are right that in the first year, the fine may be the best choice for a lot of youth, that 1% ramps up in the next few years, so I expect the number of young folk paying the fine to drop precipitously in the next 3-4 years. Just as it was designed to do.

LizM [38] -

What is taking Chris so long is known as "sheer laziness." Heh.

Actually, I've been busy with family over Turkey Day weekend, and with battening down the household for the winter (lots of yard work, didn't leave much time for commenting here or getting the pledge drive rolling).

Thursday -- I promise! Thursday!!!

LizM [39] -

The fine starts out at something pathetically low ("$95 or 1% of your income, whichever is greater") but it rises swiftly within the first few years to hundreds of dollars and something like 3% of your income -- where it will be easier to just buy health insurance for most young folks). This was one of those compromises which had to be made while the bill was being written -- a gentle ramp-up of the fines.

But at least the problem is self-correcting, in a few years.

Michale [41] -

No, that's not the way it is now. Oh, sure, if an uninsured person broke their arm, they could go down to the emergency room and they'd treat him. But if the same person got cancer, the emergency room would NOT give them chemo or any other life-saving treatment. And that is precisely "being denied needed medical care because of their inability to pay."

LizM [46] -

Clear to me. And well done!

Michale [47] -

"Socialized medicine"?!? Really? No, she is talking about the concept of a "private insurance market." Socialized medicine is what you get at a VA hospital. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

Countries with socialized medicine rank much higher in world health than the US does. Sorry, but it's a well-known fact.

As for the Iran deal, I'm not going to comment directly, but rather as an aside. I do like the idea floated Sunday by (Schumer, maybe? I forget) that would have the Senate pass even stricter sanctions -- but with a trigger that "if no permanent agreement is reached in the next 6 months". I thought it was an elegant solution to what was shaping up to be a political impasse. Sure, pile on the sanctions, but delay them until after the short-term deadline. Could work.

Michale [51] -

Because she has to pay for prostrate cancer insurance that SHE is never going to need. See how it works out in the end? [OK, that was a horrible pun, but I just couldn't resist...]

OK, that's it for now. Whew! 50+ comments!

I'm going back to work on the pledge drive rollout now... hopefully it'll be better than healthcare.gov, right?

:-)

-CW

"That's because your entire argument is DEVOID of facts and is totally based on emotionalism.."

says the pot calling the kettle black.

The facts are that over 37 million people were without health insurance before passage of the ACA. With some of the provisions, such as kids being able to stay on their parents' policies until age 26, that number started to be reduced almost the minute the ACA passed.

Now that the exchanges have been open for business reports are talking about over 100,000 who signed up for coverage in November, (I don't think that number includes people signing up through various state exchanges either.) and many, many more starting the process since then, with yet many more expected to do so through the March 2014 deadline.

I don't know what "facts" you're talking about. If you are disputing the fact that millions of people were uninsured before ACA, you are delusional. If you are disputing the fact that people now signing up include people who were uninsured previously (as well as people who are trading low quality policies for new, better policies) then you are delusional.

No one wants to talk about this, but when identity theft starts running rampant due to the documented lack of security in obamacare, it will just be another nail in the coffin of this train wreck that is obamacare...

There have already been breaches and that's just the tip of the iceberg...

But you can't say that out loud or you get audited by the IRS...

Michale

Iran is the WORLD's go-to country for terrorism.. WHY does ANYONE think that they are trustworthy??

What does that have to do with this interim agreement with Iran. Clearly, they should not be trusted and this interim agreement is meant to test their sincerity and seriousness with respect to the real negotiations that, if successful, will limit the Iranian nuclear program in a sustainable and verifiable manner.

But, let me guess, your preferred strategy is to proceed directly to war?? ...

And HER insurance covers it..

So, why do I have to purchase maternity care for ME!??

That's the one question that you avoid answering..

Because the answer exposes obamacare for what it is..

A ponzi scheme whose SOLE purpose is enriching the corporate insurance companies at the expense of middle class Americans...

Michale

In the real world, Iran has agreed to a whole host of commitments that essentially freeze progress on its nuclear program in return for very limited and reversible sanctions relief.

And Assad "agreed" to give up his CWMD arsenal..

Guess what?

He lied..

Iran is the WORLD's go-to country for terrorism..

WHY does ANYONE think that they are trustworthy??

Paula,

Logic is a tool. To use it effectively you have to have facts and context -- neither of which you have. In point of fact, I don't think you're particularly logical either.

That's because your entire argument is DEVOID of facts and is totally based on emotionalism..

Your emotional-laden message to Liz that follows is proof of this..

You have no facts..

You simply have hysterical emotionalism...

Michale

The problem with the interim deal is it gave Iran everything it wanted and they (Iran) did not have to give up a thing... Iran is still enriching uranium, still working their ballistic missile program and still building the Heavy Water Nuclear Reactor at Ataz..

In the real world, Iran has agreed to a whole host of commitments that essentially freeze progress on its nuclear program in return for very limited and reversible sanctions relief.

Now, we will see how serious and committed Iran is when it comes to the tough negotiations ahead to limit its nuclear program to peaceful purposes.

But I DO know logic..

Logic is a tool. To use it effectively you have to have facts and context -- neither of which you have. In point of fact, I don't think you're particularly logical either.

Elizabeth: (46) Michale can't grasp the idea of pooling risk. HE will never need maternity care, nevermind that his daughter (daughter-in-law?) did. In his world, it would be great if she had to pay a whole lot more for insurance to bear his grandchild so long as he could pay a lot less for his insurance.

In Conservaworld women should just have to pay more due to their god-given baby-making capacity -- never mind male involvement in those babies.

Agreed. So stop making definitive pronouncements about something about which you know so little. You could make an effort to educate yourself but, as the weeks have gone by and you've continued to make one utterly ignorant assertion after another, it is pretty clear that you'd rather remain uninformed.

But I DO know logic..

And I know that declaring that EVERYONE who has signed up for obamacare did NOT have insurance to begin with is not logical..

FACTS are going to rule the day..

Not grandiose wishful thinking...

Liz,

Let's say that someone in your family finds that they are in need of maternity and pediatric care. Now, let's say that they must pay exorbitant premiums for their healthcare because the costs of maternity and pediatric care are not spread across the entire pool of insured Americans?

So, you agree that people are paying for crap that they don't need so that OTHER people can get that crap...

You are talking about socialized medicine..

Which sounds great in theory...

But it never works in practice...

Why do you think Canadians, in droves, come to the US for medical care?

Socialized medicine simply doesn't work because it fails to account for human nature...

Don't think of health insurance as paying for one kind of care or another but rather as being insured for whatever healthcare practice or procedure that you may find you need at any given time throughout your lifetime. After all, it's not like you can predict what care you will need in the future.

No???

I can predict with absolute CERTAINTY that I will NEVER need pediatric care or maternity care...

And why should I pay for that so someone ELSE can have that care??

Let THEM pay for it...

Like I said...

Ya'all are all about theory and "would be nice"....

I deal in reality and facts....

What are your initial thoughts on the recent interim agreement between Iran and P5+1?

The problem with the interim deal is it gave Iran everything it wanted and they (Iran) did not have to give up a thing...

Iran is still enriching uranium, still working their ballistic missile program and still building the Heavy Water Nuclear Reactor at Ataz..

PLUS Iran gets the PR coup of forcing Obama to dance to Iran's tune...

No wonder Saudi Arabia is turning to Russia for new patronage... Wonder how long til Israel makes the same move...

Can't say I blame them..

Russia seems the better path for those countries, as hard as it is for me to admit that...

Michale

Try to look at all of this from another perspective ...

Let's say that someone in your family finds that they are in need of maternity and pediatric care. Now, let's say that they must pay exorbitant premiums for their healthcare because the costs of maternity and pediatric care are not spread across the entire pool of insured Americans?

The reason for spreading the costs for all essential healthcare across the entire pool of insured is to explicitly lower the costs of EVERYONE'S insurance.

Don't think of health insurance as paying for one kind of care or another but rather as being insured for whatever healthcare practice or procedure that you may find you need at any given time throughout your lifetime. After all, it's not like you can predict what care you will need in the future.

Is this really that difficult to understand or am I just making myself about as clear as mud?

Those things are considered "elective" and have NOT BEEN covered by insurance policies, nor, do I believe, are they under the ACA.

I don't know much about insurance business, this is true..

Agreed. So stop making definitive pronouncements about something about which you know so little. You could make an effort to educate yourself but, as the weeks have gone by and you've continued to make one utterly ignorant assertion after another, it is pretty clear that you'd rather remain uninformed.

What are your initial thoughts on the recent interim agreement between Iran and P5+1?

I think it's a good first step but that the difficult part lies ahead as the real negotiations to limit Iran's nuclear program get underway.

Well, if that's the case then the fine needs to be much, much higher.

And therein lies the problem.

If the youth demographic is balking at obtaining insurance because the costs are outrageous, do you think fining them MORE is going to incentivize them??

More likely than not, they'll just flip the old finger to Uncle Sam and say, "Screw You, I am looking out for numero uno"....

You remember what it was like when we were 20-somethings, right?? :D

What do you suppose is taking Chris so long to get started with the big event?

I am expecting he is compiling enough kittens to choke a Jaeger!! :D

Michale

That IS the way it is now..

The problem is, a LOT of people define "medical care" as a boob job or a nose job..

If I were in a horrendous car accident and was life-flighted to a trauma center, I would receive care... And THEN I would be asked about payment..

but you're right, when gauging the country's goal of promoting the general welfare there needs to be a line somewhere between "really necessary" and "would be nice."

Agreed...

news flash, we're there already. as a nation we spend more on our military than the next ten strongest nations combined. i think we have "common defense" pretty well covered.

Perhaps..

Yet, we STILL have people who whine and cry about torturing terrorists, rendition and killing terrorists regardless of whether or not they are Americans...

While we PROVIDE FOR THE COMMON DEFENSE, it would be nice if more Americans were on board with it based on "it's the right thing to do" rather than "My guy is doing it so I don't care"....

I would LOVE to discuss Iran with you in the coming weeks..

Perhaps CW can indulge such a convo... :D

Michale

i'd settle for nobody being denied needed medical care due to their inability to pay. and by "needed" i mean to preserve people's ability to live, breathe and work. but you're right, when gauging the country's goal of promoting the general welfare there needs to be a line somewhere between "really necessary" and "would be nice."

But if you want to use that, I bet I could have a BLAST with "provide for the common defense"... :D

Ya wanna go there?? :D

news flash, we're there already. as a nation we spend more on our military than the next ten strongest nations combined. i think we have "common defense" pretty well covered.

JL

The general consensus amongst that group is that it will be cheaper to pay the fine than it will be to sign up for insurance...

Well, if that's the case then the fine needs to be much, much higher.

If you think that an effective national healthcare system through affordable universal healthcare insurance means that young and healthy adults will end up paying exorbitant premiums for their health insurance, then you have a lot to learn about how an effective healthcare system should work.

And, it's really not all about YOU, in any event. It's about an excellent and affordable healthcare system for you and for all of your fellow citizens.

I think you may be having trouble with these concepts because you are thinking about (universal) health insurance like it is the same as any other type of insurance when it is most decidedly not.

What do you suppose is taking Chris so long to get started with the big event?

obamacare needs 40% of that demographic to sign up for obamacare to be viable...

The general consensus amongst that group is that it will be cheaper to pay the fine than it will be to sign up for insurance...

So, basically ALL obamacare is going to have on their plans are the sick and the old..

Guess what??

That's exactly the kind of insurance we had PRE obamacare...

Michale

Which one???

I don't know much about insurance business, this is true..

But I do know common sense...

And it's not common sense for a 50+ year old male to have to pay for pediatric care and maternity care...

Are you starting your comment count yet?

I'll wait til CW does his grand announcement and then back count them... :D

You're not paying for "those things" - you would be paying for excellent healthcare through a very affordable insurance plan.

But the PLAN I have INCLUDES those things... So, it stands to reason (common sense, remember??) that if I don't NEED those things, I SHOULD be able to have a plan that doesn't HAVE those things and pay less..

Again, common sense..

But, obamacare MUST have young Americans pay exbortitant prices for crap they don't need...

THAT is the only way obamacare will work..

And, guess what..

Those young healthy Americans are ALREADY rebelling at footing the bill for the Democrats support of the Insurance Industry...

JL,

"promote the general welfare"

That could mean a Ferrari in every garage and a mansion and 100 acres for every American..

But if you want to use that, I bet I could have a BLAST with "provide for the common defense"... :D

Ya wanna go there?? :D

Michale

"promote the general welfare"
~U.S. Constitution

You're not paying for "those things" - you would be paying for excellent healthcare through a very affordable insurance plan.

See, that's how an effective national healthcare system works!

But, please don't let that stop you from making a record number of comments for our big fundraiser.

By the way, I still haven't decided how I'm going to base my contribution on your comment count yet but, I'm thinking about it ...

Are you starting your comment count yet?

Yea, it's called communism..

Hasn't really panned out on this planet....

Michale

Really??

So, please explain to me why it is necessary for me to purchase a plan that has pediatric care and maternity care??

I don't plan on having a baby any time soon...

So, why should I have to pay for those things???

Michale

It's likely that Democrats will lose the Senate and decrease their influence in the House in less than a year's time..

This will be brought on by the SECOND round of cancellations where millions and millions of Employer Plans will be cancelled...

It's going to make the Great Democrat Shellacking Of 2010 look like fun in the sun by comparison...

Another upcoming issue that ya'all are burying your head in the sand over...

Michale

Thanks for that. Got it!

On another note ...

One of the arguments I always hear about the insurance plans being offered and whether or not they comport with the ACA standards always makes me roll my eyes because it betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of how health insurance should work.

I hear people complaining about having to pay for parts of a health insurance plan that they would never use. Well, number one, they may well need care some day for it and, number two, they miss the point, in any event. The idea is that if everybody - every man, woman and child - is covered for all of the "healthcare essentials" and paying their fair share then that is what brings down the overall cost of health insurance and keeps everyone's premiums as low as possible for the highest possible level of coverage.

The problem, as I sometimes see it is that we live in a culture where too many are too self-centered and don't see themselves as part of something bigger. If that attitude prevails, then universal healthcare and universal health insurance will remain elusive.

If, by "better" you mean as much as 10 times as much, then yes.. They are "better"...

But, guess what? It's irrelevant..

MILLIONS of people are losing plans they were PROMISED they could keep..

Do you care about THOSE people??

Of course not. Because they don't fit your agenda..

So you just ignore them...

Even though the numbers of Americans who have LOST their insurance is 20 times more than the number of Americans who have actually GOT insurance...

Funny how that is, eh?? :D

Michale

Can you prove that the VERY people who have obtained insurance thru obamacare did NOT have insurance before??

No you cannot..

What you have done is taken one alleged fact (37 million people uninsured) and taken another alleged fact (100,000 people have obtained insurance) and come to a completely ridiculous and unproven/unprovable conclusion...

To put it more simply, what you have done is taken the fact that there are astronauts that are women and that there are women on this planet and conclude that ALL women on this planet are astronauts..

You take two completely distinct and separate facts and come to a totally outrageous, unprovable and self-serving conclusion..

Now, at least, I know where Obama gets it from..

Michale

I'd like to 'favourite' that entire comment, if I could. But, I'm still waiting for an edit function around here (post published comment, that is) so I won't press for bells and whistles like that, just yet ... at least not until after this year's lucrative fundraiser. :)

Sorry Michale but, seriously!?

First off, there is no evidence that "they didn't have insurance before"...

Now you're just insane. Literally in such deep denial it's not funny. Are you out of your (alleged) mind? Do you think the statistics are inventions? What, you think some 37million+ people are just pretending to be uninsured? They just went through bankruptcies and foreclosures for fun? Or chose to die rather than get treatments they could have supposedly gotten? And you think that's insignificant compared to the nonsensical hysterical supposed problems with the ACA cooked up by rightwing propagandists?

Re the "millions more who are losing their insurance now" -- that's the actual number that is significantly smaller than the total number of uninsureds, and those who may lose their existing plans will be able to replace them with better plans. Some of those people will pay more for the better plans, most will not. Those who pay more are in income brackets that can afford to.

Not that facts actually matter in the delusional universe you occupy. OTOH, you so beautifully reinforce my conviction that conservatives should not be in charge of anything as your reasoning capacities have apparently atrophied.

Sure, that's one way to go... But it could result in a big boom....

Perhaps a better way is to be frank and honest about the danger, quit blowing smoke up people's arses and work to fix the problem, not the blame..

Whatta concept, eh??

Basically, Obama is the captain of the Titanic, ya'all are the crew and it's all "STAY THE COURSE" and "IGNORE THAT BIG ICEBERG BEHIND THE CURTAIN!!!"

Near as I recall, that didn't turn out too well for the Titanic....

Where is crewman I.P. Freely when ya need him!!!??? :D

Michale

How can you possibly say that isn't good?

First off, there is no evidence that "they didn't have insurance before"...

Secondly, what about the MILLIONS of people who are LOSING their insurance and the MORE MILLIONS of people who are being forced into plans they can't afford with garbage they don't need??

You prove my exact point.

You concentrate on the miniscule because it's what you WANT to believe..

You ignore everything and anything that doesn't fit in the agenda..

I acknowledge the good. It's small, but it does exist.

Ya'all simply bury yer heads to all the harm that obamacare HAS done and the harm that is yet to come..

There is plenty of factual evidence that the AHC web site got off to a lousy start. Past that, we are still in the pure speculation phase concerning overall success or failure of the mission.

Past is prologue..

You have to acknowledge that the past usually is a very good indication of the future.

The rocket just left the pad. There are caution lights and a lot of vibration....might try humming Battle Hymn of the Republic and just wait and see if Obama Care has the Right Stuff.

I already did..

I said I would give it til 1 Dec..

I did and there are still millions and millions of Americans who have had their insurance cancelled because of obamacare.

True or false???

The website can only handle barely HALF of it's intended users...

True or false???

Like I said to Paula above.

I acknowledge the good, small though it is..

Why can't ya'all reciprocate??

Michale

I would look to the history of social security and medicare. For both good and ill omens. Mostly good.

M (19)

There is plenty of factual evidence that the AHC web site got off to a lousy start. Past that, we are still in the pure speculation phase concerning overall success or failure of the mission.

The rocket just left the pad. There are caution lights and a lot of vibration....might try humming Battle Hymn of the Republic and just wait and see if Obama Care has the Right Stuff.

Nothing good, to date, has come from obamacare...

In all seriousness, thousands, moving into hundreds of thousands of people are now going to have healthcare coverage that they didn't have before. Eventually it will be millions of Americans.

How can you possibly say that isn't good?

Your entire comment is based on one single, one HUGE... "if"...

I realize that ya'all are trying to be "cup is half full" types over obamacare...

But ya'all REALLY need to face reality..

Nothing good, to date, has come from obamacare...

To be more accurate, any good that HAS come from obamacare has been infinitesimal compared to ALL of the bad..

The bad, I might add (that rhymes and you know it!!!) that no one here (sans a very VERY few) will even acknowledge.

Given all of the afore facts (and they are facts) why do you think that obamacare will work???

Beyond wishful thinking, I mean..

There is absolutely NOTHING factual to support the conclusion that obamacare will work..

And there is PLENTY of factual evidence to support the conclusion that obamacare will NOT work..

It's almost as if ya'all keep saying, "obamacare is good, obamacare is great" in hopes that the mere act of saying it over and over and over and over will make it so...

But I know ya'all are too smart to think that....

Right??

Michale

That's where the US political discussion will end up. Why are we so inefficient at medical care?

Just to clarify, do you mean you think we'll finally have the discussion about why we need health insurance administered by private companies after the ACA has settled in and we see what it improves and what it doesn't?

That would be good.

Appreciably greater health care availability to the US population, and probably some net savings in the cost of health care to the average citizen. Or, at least some pressure to keep cost increases lower over the long haul, which amounts to the same thing.

That's improvement, and I'll welcome it. But, at the end of the day, costs will still be roughly two or three times as much as comparable levels of care in the rest of the First World countries with their universal health care coverages (of many stripes).

That's where the US political discussion will end up. Why are we so inefficient at medical care? With the insurance companies, the giant health care networks and the drug manufacturers (don't forget those guys) still smiling broadly, making money hand over fist and contributing generously to the political process/advertising industry.

Politics is still the art of the possible, Dammnit!

Lots and lots of people get paid to do something we don't actually need and many of us don't even want.

The underlying principle of Medicare AND private health insurance is the pooling of monies so that people aren't left to pay for unexpected health problems that they can't afford. Medicare handles the administration of monies with a fraction of the staff employed by the private insurance industry. This is because the private insurance industry has all sorts of people who do all sorts of administrative stuff to categorize people; to obtain their medical information; to evaluate their claims, etc. They're also staffs of people doing the marketing, PR, etc. of the insurance companies. But all the stuff they do has zero to do with actually treating a patient. In many cases what they used to do was everything they could to keep a patient from getting treatment.

Makework.

They push around papers and keep all sorts of records which are copies of medical records generated by actual doctors, nurse, hospitals, clinics, etc.

If we had a Medicare For All system we would cut out a massive number of meaningless, redundant jobs. And we'd stop paying a bunch of executives exorbitant salaries for running these parasitic companies.

I understand that such a thing would adversely impact an already tottering economy. But we really never get to that discussion. Instead the ACA was developed as it was, in part, to avoid that discussion.

Lots and lots of people get paid to do something we don't actually need and many of us don't even want.

Could you elaborate on that last bit - I'm not sure I know what you mean.

Thanks.

Most of the arguments you make against the ACA prove my point that the private health insurance industry is not ideally suited - not by a long shot - to be dealing with healthcare and health insurance.

If obamacare has shown us ANYTHING, it's that neither is the federal government...

If this things works out in the end, and the insurance companies and government understand what their responsibilities are in providing affordable healthcare for every American citizen,

Who says??

Is it written down somewhere that health care is an inalienable god given right??

At this point, however, I don't think that enough Americans want this system to work or care enough about making the necessary changes along the way to build a national healthcare system that is the envy of the world. And, I find that to be infinitely unfortunate.

Perhaps it is..

But IMPOSING such a program, by hook or by crook, is obviously NOT the answer...

Michale

I think that's the underlying issue that doesn't get discussed. It operates on two levels. First, there's the "problem" of whether healthcare and profits make a moral mix. Second, there's the fact that the healthcare insurance industry is essentially "makework". Lots and lots of people get paid to do something we don't actually need and many of us don't even want.

Most of the arguments you make against the ACA prove my point that the private health insurance industry is not ideally suited - not by a long shot - to be dealing with healthcare and health insurance.

Now, I'm not saying that the private insurance companies can't evolve their methods and practices when it comes to working with the government to provide affordable healthcare to all Americans but, they simply cannot treat health insurance like any other type of for-profit insurance or it simply won't work. Americans, I might add, also need to understand this fundamental principle of providing quality healthcare and universal health insurance.

If this things works out in the end, and the insurance companies and government understand what their responsibilities are in providing affordable healthcare for every American citizen, then the US could, in time, become a model for providing a truly universal healthcare system that functions at the highest levels.

At this point, however, I don't think that enough Americans want this system to work or care enough about making the necessary changes along the way to build a national healthcare system that is the envy of the world. And, I find that to be infinitely unfortunate.

Agreed..

The problem with obamacare is that it was hyped up to be a program that would bring insurance to the masses and lower the costs of insurance..

The reality is far different..

MORE Americans are LOSING their healthcare than are gaining it and the cost are exorbiantly higher and the plans are WORSE than what people already had..

And LIKED..

Further, the plans are chock full of crap that isn't needed...

If obamacare is going to survive, it's going to need to jettison the cronyism and political agenda crap and obtain a little... no.. a LOT of common sense...

Michale

I think most of the problems inherent with the ACA revolve around the central issue that healthcare and health insurance are not easily or ideally dealt with by the private insurance industry.

This is the type of danger facing Democrats..

It's not the crappy website, although that is not helping one iota..

It's the fact that Obama looked each and every American in the face and knowingly flat-out lied.

THAT is what is going to kill Democrats in the mid-terms..

You heard it here first...

Michale

Insurance companies ALSO make money by selling people a buttload of crap that they don't need.

Something obamacare makes mandatory..

The ACA requires the Companies to cover both situations. Why is there any surprise that the Ins. Cos. are trying to evade it?

The fact that the Obama Administration throws the Insurance Companies under the bus at every opportunity might have SOMETHING to do with that, eh?

You can only kick an entity in the ballz so long before they might just start resenting it...

I'm just sayin'..

Michale

#1

We hit the crux of the issue.

Insurance companies make money by insuring those who they don't think will need their services. They don't like catastrophic illnesses, particularly those long-term in need for services. They don't like pre-existing conditions 'cause that's a losing bet from the get go.

The ACA requires the Companies to cover both situations. Why is there any surprise that the Ins. Cos. are trying to evade it?

No security ever built into Obamacare site: Hacker
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101225308

Apparently, the GOP called it dead on ballz accurate...

AGAIN....

Considering how much personal information obamacare collects from Americans, I think the security of obamacare is ALSO a conversation worth having..

Michale

I thought it was the end of LAST month when it needed to work or else?? :D

Michale

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/12/02/can-healthcare-gov-actually-handle-50000-users-at-a-time/

Apparently, they missed the goal...

Can we ALL agree now that obamacare is a train wreck???

Of course not.. What was *I* thinking!!???

No matter WHAT litmus test you want to use, obamacare is an epic fail...

Joshua,

vis a vis "death panels," those already exist.

I was referring more to the idea that people would be condemned to die because obamacare decrees that it is too expensive to allow them to live...

We have seen that a lot of late...

Michale

that may or may not be true. regardless, it's a conversation worth having. the website conversation is basically still a distraction (until the end of the month when it needs to work or else).

JL

That, pretty much, says it all....

Almost......

The OTHER problem (in the here and now. There are likely to be new problems cropping up) is the millions and millions of Americans who have had their insurance cancelled because of obamacare..

The State Insurance people aren't really impressed with Obama's "generous" offer to have said people break the law and Obama will have his minions look the other way...

So, as things are now, millions of Americans are STILL getting their insurance plans, the plans they LIKE, cancelled...

Even if the website works flawlessly (an impossibility), there is still THAT aspect of obamacare that is going to haunt Democrats in the coming year..

If the website is actually adequate (not a good bet) then look for the GOP to pivot and highlight the cancellations..

THIS attack front will prove even MORE beneficial to the GOP when, come Aug/Sep/Oct 2014, EMPLOYER BASED insurance plans will be cancelled by the millions...

It's not going to be a pretty year for Democrats, regardless of whether or not the website actually works...

Michale

http://sinkers.org/stage/?p=499