Or, in this case, Chris Hayes.. :D

Michale

Exactly.. Or The Ends Justifies The Means as I laid out before..

of course the republicans will probably do the exact same thing a hundredfold; the next time they gain a majority they'll probably eliminate the filibuster completely, citing the present move as precedent.

Again, dead on ballz accurate.. And while I will decry the move as excessive and uncalled for, there will be a little (or maybe a LOT) of I TOLD YA SO gloating. :D

yesterday my landlady had chris hayes on her television really loud, and i overheard him say something like, "when it comes to the filibuster everyone is a hypocrite."

I would say change "filibuster" to "politics" and I'de say yer landlady hit the bullseye...

Check out the 2 NY TIMES quotes in the next commentary...

Michale...

that may be so. since we're discussing bush's iraq policy, it is certainly a bush doctrine type action; do unto others before they get a chance to do unto you. of course the republicans will probably do the exact same thing a hundredfold; the next time they gain a majority they'll probably eliminate the filibuster completely, citing the present move as precedent.

yesterday my landlady had chris hayes on her television really loud, and i overheard him say something like, "when it comes to the filibuster everyone is a hypocrite."

JL

Again, let me be clear..

I don't condemn Obama for his NSA activities...

It's likely the ONLY area that I fully, completely and unequivocally support Obama on..

Obama has obviously recognized the wisdom of Bush when Bush created these CT policies and the value to the safety and security of this country that Bush's policies represent..

I just wanted to make sure we were clear on this..

It's not the policies I have a problem with.

It's the fact that the Left (in general and Weigantians in particular) doesn't have any problem with the policies when, under Bush, the Left (in general and Weigantians in particular) were hysterically apoplectic about a MILDER form of these same policies...

That's my beef...

And don't bother trying to deny it because the facts are clear...

"Crystal!"
-Jack Nicholson, A FEW GOOD MEN

Michale

First of all, let's be accurate. It's not a "NSA Scandal"...

It's an "Obama Scandal"...

Second, Obama is far FAR from just "complicit"..

Obama has expanded the NSA program to such heights as to be a Cheney wet dream...

And it's YOU people who are "complicit" in allowing him to do it...

Michale

The guy has a point...

Do you know why the MAD doctrine was such an effective doctrine??

Because the cost of tossing around nukes was too high...

The same surely applies to the metaphorical use of nukes in Congress..

The half life of the total destruction lasts tens of thousands of years...

Metaphorically speaking..

You can bet on one thing..

Democrats will come to regret this move. I can guarantee you that...

Michale

There is a reason Obama's and Democrat's approval numbers are heading into the toilet, don'tcha know.. :D

Michale

Well, aside from the fact that it IS a factual argument, it's not my ONLY argument in life.

I also say obamacare is a train wreck..

Dems didn't obstruct at the for a number of reason -- some because they agreed with pubs and some because they thought things like "Since Bush was the President, he should be allowed to select who he wanted for cabinet positions," etc. and some because they were afraid or thought they'd lose elections.

That's your OPINION completely unsupported by facts...

I notice you didn't mention the video I linked to of McConnell's 2005 attempt to end the filibuster. Instead you do one of your puffed up sanctimonious pronouncements about being "An American First!"

When you start visiting and commenting on my FNC links, I'll start visiting and commenting on your DailyKos links..

Deal?? :D

Which means what, exactly? Besides you asserting that you offer your criticisms fairly while everyone else is partisan, which is utter rot on your part, other than that, what does it mean?

See above.. :D

David,

The Prodigal Son Returns!!! :D

Everything they do these days is basically a test of how much corporate media can cover for them.

Come on.. There is scant evidence that the MSM lays down cover for Republicans.

There is MOUNTAINS and MOUNTAINS of factual evidence that PROVES the MSM is in Obama's pocket. Or up his ass.. Take your pick...

YoYo,

So you found the weapons of mass destruction?

Being wrong does not a lie make, Yo...

If Bush "lied" then practically EVERY Democrat in Congress ALSO lied, because they all said the same thing..

And mind you, while Obama is certainly complicit in the NSA scandal, it all started under... Bush!

I don't have a problem with the NSA activities. I fully and unequivocally SUPPORT the NSA activities.

But you PROVE my point PERFECTLY!!

Ya'all had a BIG problem, a HUGE problem with the NSA activities under Bush...

But you support the NSA program under Obama...

That's hypocrisy.. In it's purest form...

True, but all of that is the direct result of the 2008 crash.

Ahhhh

So it's STILL all Bush's fault..

Obama's actions are completely blameless...

Cause cuts and austerity measures make things worse.

No. Moronic incompetence on behalf of the Democrats and your god Obama is making things worse...

The train wreck that is obamacare is but one example...

Michale

True, but all of that is the direct result of the 2008 crash. That debacle is all Republican. Also, Republicans have insisted that the great lesson of the Great Depression, Keynesian economics, somehow doesn't apply anymore. Wanna know why things are getting worse? Cause cuts and austerity measures make things worse. Which are... Republican Positions!

So you found the weapons of mass destruction? You really shouldn't keep that stuff in your basement Michale. And mind you, while Obama is certainly complicit in the NSA scandal, it all started under... Bush!

Their completed purchase and/or successful defeat of the media?

Everything they do these days is basically a test of how much corporate media can cover for them. And so far it's been pretty successful. Most people have no idea how obstructionist they've been.

-David

"That's the difference that makes ALL the difference.." More Bullshit. Dems didn't obstruct at the for a number of reason -- some because they agreed with pubs and some because they thought things like "Since Bush was the President, he should be allowed to select who he wanted for cabinet positions," etc. and some because they were afraid or thought they'd lose elections. I followed all this quite closely at the time. None of them were about "obstruction for the sake of obstruction" whereas McConnell said, publicly, that the pubs were going to obstruct Obama from Day One. No attempts to actually solve anything that doesn't involve kicking more money to rich people, just obstruction because the other party won.

I notice you didn't mention the video I linked to of McConnell's 2005 attempt to end the filibuster. Instead you do one of your puffed up sanctimonious pronouncements about being "An American First!"

Which means what, exactly? Besides you asserting that you offer your criticisms fairly while everyone else is partisan, which is utter rot on your part, other than that, what does it mean?

Why is it that you have such a huge problem with Bush's "lies" (which werent' really lies at all) but yet, you give Obama a golden pass on his blatant and ongoing text-book definition lies???

The Dems didn't offer anywhere near the kind of obstruction the pubs have been doing since they lost and any claim to the contrary is bullshit.

You miss the entire point..

Democrats didn't offer such obstruction, NOT out of any desire to be "proper" but rather because THEY WERE INCOMPETENT at it...

That's the difference that makes ALL the difference..

The simple fact is the ONLY time you have a beef with Democrats is when they aren't hard enough on the Republicans. As you so eloquently point out in your latest comment.

You don't have a problem with what Democrats DO, policy wise..

Whether it be gross and ongoing flagrant violations of Americans privacy or whether it is gross and flagrant violations of civil rights and due process..

You don't say A WORD against any of that..

No, YOUR only beef is that they don't stick it to the Republicans good enough..

THAT is symptomatic of a person who puts Party before Country..

And if that's what you are all about, fine.. It makes all kinds of people to make the world go round..

But just have the courtesy to admit it.. Don't blow smoke up my ass and pretend that you and the Democrats are all about some noble ideal...

Your a Democrat first and an American second..

Stand proud!! :D

Once again, I have to point to the wisdom of Sam Winchester...

"But hey... At least we're talking.."
-Sam Winchester, SUPERNATURAL, The French Mistake

I knew that, once the Democrats did something that ya'all could rally around, it would bring ya'all out of the woodwork.. :D

Let's hope that ya'all can be happy thru the end of the year, eh? :D

Michale

One of the things that disgusted me about the Dems during the Bush years was how effing accommodating they were to Bush. They let him lie us into the war. They let him put a couple of right wing reactionaries into the Supreme Court. They didn't fight back over and over and over. Many of us were quite unhappy with Obama after his election specifically because he didn't smack the hell out of repubs still standing when he got into office. He didn't grasp that they would continue to take a mile when given an inch until they were forcibly restrained. It took him AND Harry AND a majority of other Dems until TODAY to do the kind of thing they should have done the second Obama entered the White House.

The Dems didn't offer anywhere near the kind of obstruction the pubs have been doing since they lost and any claim to the contrary is bullshit. It's just repub talking points completely contrary to actual history.

You seem to forget the Bush years when it was the Democrats who were all about obstructionism and offered nothing constructive..

And yes, ya'all have complained about the Democrats.

But you never DID anything about it.

Ya'all STILL supported them to the hilt..

As I said. Party before Country is what ya'all are all about...

Michale

"What I don't get is why absolutely NO ANGER is directed at the Democrats???"

I have many times adding caveats to my posts about my unhappiness with a number of Dem failures but you never seem to remember that. So have other commenters here. I said today that Harry should have done this a long time ago.

No one here expresses unqualified doesn't-matter-what-they-do support for the Dems. But we able to make distinctions between their failures and those of the repubs and judge the repubs to be worse, far more destructive, far more dishonest, etc.

Dems are the best of 2 evils. The ARE doing better. The repubs are purely about "being against" and offer nothing constructive.

And the DEMOCRATS are doing any better??

The middle class is shrinking at an astronomical rate under Democrats.. The 1% are getting richer.. UNDER DEMOCRATS...

I see your anger at the GOP and I largely agree with it..

What I don't get is why absolutely NO ANGER is directed at the Democrats???

Hell, the NSA crap alone SHOULD have made you tear up your PARTY Card... Assassinating Americans w/o Due Process should cause you to denounce Democrats to the high heavens..

And yet, here you are...

Me??

I place loyalty to my country way WAY before any loyalty to ANY corrupt and power-hungry Political Party...

But I guess that's just me...

Michale

Oh come on, Paula!!

It hasn't "worked" like that in over 220 YEARS!!!

"How it's spose to work" my left arse cheek!! :D

The majority beats the minority.

The Tyranny Of The Majority

Democrats whined about it constantly when they were in the minority..

I wouldn't be so quick to bet on Dems losing in 2014 either.

I know you wouldn't.. That's because you think obamacare is actually going to survive despite all the facts to the contrary.. The simple fact that NO DEMOCRAT calls it 'obamacare' anymore should be a clue for you. :D

Thass OK... It's just going to make Wed, 5 Nov 2014 all the more sweeter.. :D

Michale

And the opposition to this blatant power grab was BI-PARTISAN....

Puts it ALL in context..

Michale

It's the Democrats that usher in the Era Of 1984 and it's the Democrats who first use nukes...

The irony is flowing, that's for sure.. :D

Michale

The GOP has been making me apopletic for years now. This is just one more way that they've been using their power to make America a poorer and more miserable place for everyone except the 1%.

Dems "increased their power at the expense of repubs" is a misreading. They're simply returning to the way things are supposed to work. The majority beats the minority. The minority doesn't get to stop the government from working at all; they don't get to be in charge when they've lost. Every election offers the opportunity for the balance of power to shift.

I wouldn't be so quick to bet on Dems losing in 2014 either.

That's what this is all about....

Michale

Which is EXACTLY why Reid did what he did at this time.

Dems need a rallying win after the huge drip-drip-drip black eye they are getting over obamacare...

But this won't save the mid-terms for the Democrats. On that you can bet...

that the repubs care about nothing but their own power, period. They can't be reasoned with and can't be compromised with. They have to be crushed, period.

...that the Democrats care about nothing but their own power, period. They can't be reasoned with and can't be compromised with. They have to be crushed, period.

Yep, it works..

Especially since it was the DEMOCRATS who increased THEIR power at the EXPENSE of the Republicans..

Let's face it. You don't mind that a Party cares only about Power as long it's YOUR Party..

If the GOP had tried this under Bush, ya'all would have been apoplectic, no??

Of course ya'all would have...

So let's be honest here....

Michale

Yes, there's every chance that if repubs were to win the Senate they'll benefit but, given their recent history, I don't doubt for one second that if the repubs retook the Senate they'd exercise this option immediately.

So what we have now is a year where Dems can get things done and, depending on the midterms, maybe 3 years where Dems can get things done. Which is far, far better than them being stymied constantly for the next year/3 years. I think Dems stand a better chance of hanging on to the Senate by standing up to repub bullying than by continuing to allow them to bully with no pushback.

Maybe the Dems have finally, truly internalized the fact that the repubs care about nothing but their own power, period. They can't be reasoned with and can't be compromised with. They have to be crushed, period.

Yes there are reasons for that, but you are so off topic at this point I won't even try to bring you back. Needless to say, Israel's and Britain's current super power status has nothing to do with them having parliamentary systems.

However, Majoritarian systems do function better when dealing with highly polarized political parties, something to consider.

And neither Israel nor Britain are superpowers..

Mebbe there is a reason for that.. :D

Further, the idea that a Party in Israel can call an election any time is totally weird..

Imagine that here?? I can't.... :D

"But hey... At least we're talking.."
-Sam Winchester, SUPERNATURAL, The French Mistake

:D

Michale

Wrong, but I doubt you actually know much about comparative politics, or how parliamentary systems work. For instance, in Britain the Prime Minister is not elected by the people, he's selected by the majority party in parliament. Generally it's well known who is going to be picked, but the point stands that no one in Britain other than an MP can vote for the prime minister. To make an analogy, imagine if the house of representatives selected the president as a matter of course, rather than as some extreme measure. How's that for powerful parties?

Yea, who woulda thunked it, eh?? :D

Can we assume that tomorrow's MIDOTW awardee is a forgone conclusion?? :D

Michale

Yes it is..

Until the next time there is more...

And so it goes....

As I said, the only reason Democrats haven't matched the GOP in their filibusters is that Democrats were never CAPABLE of doing it at the level of competence that the GOP exhibits..

Tell ya what..

Let's revisit the issue in 2015 after Democrats have had a year as the Minority Party and see how the GOP's "unprecedented" filibustering has stood up, eh?? :D

Michale

Fair enough...

While I would agree with you that a years time is an eternity in the political arena where time is measured in the next sound bite, I also submit to you that there hasn't been in recent memory such a clusterf*ck that had had so much time and political capital invested...

obamacare isn't some piddley bill that meant something to a small handful of Americans..

It was a complete makeover of one sixth of the economy that, literally, has touched EVERY American in some way or another, most of them in a very bad way...

I think that we'll be seeing ramifications of this train wreck all the way to the 2016 POTUS elections and beyond..

It should be noted that most other democratic governments are far more majoritarian than ours is. Even with the most current rules changes. They function just fine, everyone is so worried about what the other side is going to do when they get this power.

I, with respect, disagree...

Most other Democracies are one step removed from Anarchy...

Take the Israeli system of government? How many Political "Partys" are there? Dozens?? Hundreds??

The Brits have a "Shadow Government"....

The US is unique in that ONE single Party can yield so much power and have a profound (or traumatic) impact on the lives of it's citizens...

I think we'll see government operated more in accordance with the majority of voters.

And what happens when that majority wants to go Right?? As we are seeing happening right now??

THAT is exactly the problem with changing the long standing rules to fit the conditions of the here and now.

Conditions change.. What seems like a good idea to Democrats in the here and now will likely have them self-flagellating themselves til the cows come in in a little over a year...

bortaS bIr jablu'DI' reH QaQqu' nay'
-Old Klingon Proverb

Michale

:-)

Michale -

No, this truly is unprecedented abuse. Here's a handy chart.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cloture_Voting,_United_States_Senate,_1947_to_2008.svg

In the 1970s, the numbers go up because that's when the abolished the "talking filibuster." They made it easier, it got used more. But it's that last spike at the end when the Republicans took control. And it dwarfs anything which came before, even you will have to admit.

-CW

Ehh, I'm still in the none of this will matter in a year's time, a year is long time in political terms. Remember though I said the same thing when everyone was crowing over the shutdown debacle, and how suddenly the Democrats had already won the 2014 elections. I stand by my prediction that very few seats will change hands.

But as far as filibuster reform goes, I'd just like to quote my dad, "You abuse it, you lose it," do I think it's a good idea? Maybe, maybe not, it'll play out in the long term. In the short? We'll have some more judges and bureaucrats in necessary posts, hardly the end of democracy as we know it.

It should be noted that most other democratic governments are far more majoritarian than ours is. Even with the most current rules changes. They function just fine, everyone is so worried about what the other side is going to do when they get this power. I think we'll see government operated more in accordance with the majority of voters. Cause that is what it takes to get it in the first place.

Thereby proving the first part of #14 beyond any doubt.. :D

Michale

I have a feeling that this is going to be a Phyrric Victory that Democrats will come to regret in the aftermath of the uber shellacking that they are about to receive in less than a years time...

Michale

Looks like you got your wish CW...

Now, let's see how Democrats like the aftermath...

Michale

The rules allow it and they have the cohesion and the discipline to make it work..

To clarify..

They do it because it furthers their agenda...

They are successful at it because they have the cohesion and the discipline that, up until recently, Democrats lacked..

I think that, once Democrats are relegated to the Minority Party, you are going to see a LOT of successful filibustering from the Democrats. Likely more than the Republicans ever did..

They have learned the GOP lessons well...

Michale

Simple...

Because they can..

The rules allow it and they have the cohesion and the discipline to make it work..

Red Party of No vs Blue Party of Nothing Much.

Now THAT was funny!! :D

Michale

I would argue that it all boils down to state level politics (especially primaries and caucii) and demographic shifts, which favor Republican crusades which accomplish nothing except causing nothing to get accomplished in Washington. Red Party of No vs Blue Party of Nothing Much.

This is ALSO why I have no love for the Republican Party.. They think that political opponents are enemies to be destroyed..

The Democrats are ALSO coming around to this way of thinking, vis a vis the Republicans..

Once again, I'll leave it to ya'all to pass judgement as to the wisdom of this.

I am sure my opinions on the matter are obvious.. :D

Michale

It's diversity..

"Politics is war by other means"
-Von Clausewitz

You can't run a war by committee. That's what destroyed the Occupy movement..

All chiefs and no indians...

That's a lesson that the Democratic Party has only recently learned..

I'll leave it to ya'all to decide whether it's best or not...

I am also constrained to point out that the "fracture" within the GOP is much more overblown, much more wishful thinking on the part of the Left than it is in reality..

The GOP might fight within the family.. But when push comes to shove, they all know who the real enemy is...

As is evidenced by the united front we are seeing in the here and now..

Great comment, NYP... Nice to see life still exists... :D

Michale

In other words, if the Democratic Party was more competent as a Minority Party they would have done it as much, if not more, than the Republicans have done it..

it's a bit more complicated than that. it's interesting that the republicans have essentially been fractured into two factions, because to some extent democrats have ALWAYS been fractured into internal factions. that's one of the reasons why they're generally not as united on procedural matters. if you're interested in reading the reasons behind it, okcupid explains the phenomenon much better than i could:

http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/the-democrats-are-doomed-or-how-a-big-tent-can-be-too-big/

You say that as if it's a bad thing. A dirty trick. An underhanded move..

But isn't that exactly what is being advocated here??

That Democrats should change the rules to favor themselves and themselves alone??

I'm just sayin'.....

Michale

However, in this case, the nuclear option would be considered more of a Doomsday Device.

Or, if one wants to be more subtle, a double-edged sword...

. If the Republicans gain control of the Senate in the midterms,

Which, considering the circumstances of the here and now, is an all but assured possibility..

- invoking it many times more than Democrats ever have --

Again, I an constrained to point out that this was not due to any patriotic fervor or the desire to do the right thing.

It was solely and completely due to the fact that Democrats could never keep their Party members in line sufficiently in line to make it work..

In other words, if the Democratic Party was more competent as a Minority Party they would have done it as much, if not more, than the Republicans have done it..

Spot on analysis, as TS says.. :D

However.....

Considering how bad things are going for the Democrats and considering how much MUCH worse it's going to get before it gets any better...

Ya'all gotta ask yerselves one question...

Do ya feel lucky??

Michale

Does launching a rules nuke require simultaneously turning 2 keys? One for Harry, and one for Joe Biden?