If shutting down the government was the only way for ya'all to get your Single Payer, then ya'all would advocate shutting down the government in a stone cold minute...

You know it. I know it.. :D

Michale

The GOP is simply doing their jobs...

And lets face the facts here..

You wish that Democrats would do THEIR jobs as passionately and as effectively as the GOP has done theirs....

Michale

You seem to be all serious about the debt ceiling... But when GOP was in power, raising the debt ceiling was a "failure of leadership"...

Now that Democrats are in power, **NOT** raising the debt ceiling is a "failure of leadership"..

You can't have it both ways, Paula. Either Democrats were wrong then or they are wrong now..

Which is it??

Michale

It's Obama and the Democrats who made such actions necessary..

Guess what? I would like a single-payer system -- I don't think the ACA went far enough.

Blame the Democrats for that.

There are progressive Dems who agreed with me and who fought for a Public Option and we didn't get it. I was very angry and disappointed at the time. But I never thought or suggested that my views entitled me to shut down the government because I didn't get what I wanted.

Then those Democrats in Congress apparently didn't want it bad enough, eh? :D

There is no way on earth for "representation" to equal "everyone gets what they want all the time".

I remind you that the GOP had already compromised by not forcing a total defunding of obamacare and settled for the same delay for middle class Americans that Obama and the Democrats gave their corporate cronies.

Why don't you address that??

The majority of Americans are against obamacare.

The majority of Americans have ALWAYS been against obamacare..

The GOP is simply doing their jobs...

Michale

There is a difference between "representation" and getting their way at the point of a gun.

Guess what? I would like a single-payer system -- I don't think the ACA went far enough.

There are progressive Dems who agreed with me and who fought for a Public Option and we didn't get it. I was very angry and disappointed at the time. But I never thought or suggested that my views entitled me to shut down the government because I didn't get what I wanted.

I think we spend way too much money on wars. I think gun manufacturers should be put out of business. I don't feel particularly represented by anyone on those issues. But I don't think that people should go hungry because people in power don't agree with me.

If people don't like the ACA as much as you seem to think they don't, they could be demanding a total "opt out". They can pay for their insurance themselves, or go without and, in exchange for not having to pay a penalty, can agree to take their chances and pay for whatever medical care they might need themselves. Maybe that demand would be met, maybe it wouldn't. But it would be consistent with their supposed beefs with the program.

What they shouldn't be able to do is keep me from being able to get affordable healthcare. They shouldn't be able to keep millions of people from getting affordable healthcare. They especially shouldn't be able to do that when they have squat to replace it. They have no business calling the shots on healthcare policy when they know nothing at all about any of it. They don't know what's in the law, how it's meant to work or why it was written the way it was.

Part of adulthood is recognizing that you can't always get your way. Part of not being obnoxious assholes is internalizing that when you don't get your way, you don't pout, you don't whine (at least not for long). You might swear a bit in your disappointment, then you get over it and move on. Otherwise people stop wanting to be around you -- you become pariahs and don't get invited to parties anymore because you become a gigantic drag and drain.

Approval of Obamacare has gone up this past week because people are starting to actually learn about it. The more they learn, the better they'll like it and, if history is any guide, the program will improve over time. The vast majority of people who say they don't like it also don't know anything about it or they know the litany of falsehoods produced by rightwing media. But now they are beginning to actually look into and that changes everything. (Spare me any discussion about software problems -- the software isn't the ACA, it's just a means to an end. The software will get fixed.)

There is no way on earth for "representation" to equal "everyone gets what they want all the time".

I know, I know. What he really should be asking for is to get rid of this debt ceiling nonsense altogether.

If Obama (and ya'all) would have supported that during the Bush years, such a position would have had credibility..

But, alas...

All I ask for is a little consistency....

If you spoke out against torture and eavesdropping under Bush, you should be consistent and speak out against it under Obama..

If you are for eliminating the debt ceiling under Obama, then the time to speak out about it is ALSO under Bush...

You see what I am saying???

NO ... ONE ... IS ... SAYING ... THAT

Moose poop!!

Can I assume that, since you failed to address this, that you concede that, in fact, it WAS stated that it was all the fault of the Republicans?? :D

Michale

I know, I know. What he really should be asking for is to get rid of this debt ceiling nonsense altogether.

I can and do have it neither way though.

-David

Obama wants a year for the debt ceiling.

Do the words, "Cold day in hell" mean anything??

Michale

I know you would.. That's because your are ideological disposed to only one side..

Just like a Muslim will say there is only ONE true religion and all the others are fake. Just like a catholic would say the same..

It's not simply about the beliefs, feelings or egos of our political leadership, it's about the lives of the people they've all sworn to serve.

You mean the people who are against obamacare??

They don't count, right??

Aren't they Americans??

Aren't they entitled to have THEIR views represented??

In addition to the specific consequences of the shutdown and potential budget ceiling breach, they are clearly displaying a contempt for our government --

No, they are displaying a contempt for the Democrats in government.. With good reason.

"On the contrary, Mr Barris, I take this mission very seriously. It's you, I take lightly."
Captain James T Kirk, STAR TREK, The Trouble With Tribbles

The Dem's BIGGEST mistake was not recognizing the toxicity for what it was back when it was just a nuisance. Their next mistake was still not recognizing it when, like THE BLOB in the old movie, it started to grow. They kept giving pubs the benefit of the doubt long past the point of safety. The monster is running loose now and has to be brought down and innocent bystanders will be hurt in the process.

So, you are saying exactly what I have always said you say..

The ONLY fault of the Democrats is not being hard enough on Republicans.

Everything bad is the fault of the Republicans..

That's the sentiment around here.

It is neither logical, nor reality..

You seem to be all serious about the debt ceiling... But when GOP was in power, raising the debt ceiling was a "failure of leadership"...

Now that Democrats are in power, **NOT** raising the debt ceiling is a "failure of leadership"..

You can't have it both ways, Paula. Either Democrats were wrong then or they are wrong now..

Which is it??

"Where am I supposed to go!???"
"I don't know!"
"You don't know or you don't care?!?"
"PICK ONE!"
- The X-Men

David,

Speak of the devil, John McCain

See!

When McCain says what ya like, he is the cat's meow..

When he says what you don't like, he is the horse's ass...

Like Paula, you cannot have it both ways...

Michale

A clean CR is one without conditions. All Boehner's offer does is relieve Republicans of the pressure they're getting from the Street over a default while further empowering budget hostage-taking in compensation.
We need to make it clear that hostage-taking is not the democratic process, and will not be rewarded. If not, we may avoid economic disaster at the expense of our democracy.--Too high a price to pay imho. We need to save the economy and democracy.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/mccain-to-fox-news-no-the-shutdown-is-the-gop-s-fault-video

Speak of the devil, John McCain
-David

Having finally worked my way through the 2 installments (Thing One and Thing Two?) I mop my brow and say "thanks CW" for chasing down a lot of unruly facts.

My opinion is that the Tea Party franchise has over badly reached on this one. But fine, let's play the game to its conclusion.

The stakes are high. Can a diverse nation like the USA govern by a newly discovered principle of super majority? Does power of the purse mean every discontented rump group can summarily veto lawfully enacted legislation by threatening to throw said purse down the sewer? Has section 4 of the 14th amendment been secretly repealed?

Most Americans won't take kindly to deliberate demolition of the American economy for the sake of a principle. Of course, those Koch Crazed Tea Party goers who say nothing serious will come of a default might just conceivably be right...that we are too big to fail. On the other hand, if they are wrong, things may go seriously crazy, with nasty consequences to the majority of Republicans who are still serious about governance.

Ever see that fine old film Lawrence of Arabia?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aARaYjgm_rA

John Boehner, sometimes you should take that unconditional surrender while you still can. Life goes on. Just ask Germany and Japan. Or Robert E. Lee.

All Obama has to do is acknowledge that he's giving in to Republicans when they send him a CR bill.

God, I love Politico ... it's hilarious watching them try to pretend they're non-partisan.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/10/john-boehner-offer-obama-debt-ceiling-98154.html

"Obama may have little choice but to accept House Speaker John Boehner’s offer because it delivers what the president wanted: a debt limit hike with no ideological strings attached."

Oh well ... I guess whatever it takes. If they want to send a clean CR and pretend that this was their victory so the country doesn't go down in flames, I guess I'd be ok w/ it.

-David

While the teabaggers run around screaming that the world must bow to their prejudices, religious beliefs, and wounded sensibilities, they show pretty much zero awareness of the damage they are inflicting on people's lives. If anything, they seem to enjoy the idea since they've decided that anyone they may be hurting must deserve to be hurt.

In addition to the specific consequences of the shutdown and potential budget ceiling breach, they are clearly displaying a contempt for our government -- for the way it works and for what it does. They don't feel constrained by the constitution, separation of powers, checks and balances, or anything else. It's all about them, them, them.

The Dem's BIGGEST mistake was not recognizing the toxicity for what it was back when it was just a nuisance. Their next mistake was still not recognizing it when, like THE BLOB in the old movie, it started to grow. They kept giving pubs the benefit of the doubt long past the point of safety. The monster is running loose now and has to be brought down and innocent bystanders will be hurt in the process.

I think you might have misconstrued what I was saying in the previous commentary..

I am not mitigating your research or calling into question your facts in any way whatsoever..

All I am saying is that you are only telling ONE side of the story.. The Democrat side..

I am sure you will agree that there IS another side to the story..

And if I really cared for the Republican Party as much as ya'all accuse me of, I would TELL that side..

But I don't, so I won't.. :D

Michale

Which Party has said, "Never let a crisis go to waste"...

Was it the Republicans?? Or the Democrats??

Once again, you slam and attack the Republicans for doing something that you actually applaud and encourage when the Democrats do it...

Michale

Moose poop!!

These last 2 commentaries say EXACTLY that..

When I commented that there is likely ANOTHER side of the story I was ever so politely bodily slammed to the ground :D and told that there are NO OTHER possibilities save the one put forth by CW...

I'm sorry, Michale, but this is perhaps the craziest thing you've ever said.

Perhaps..

But ya'all claiming the Republicans are terrorists is the craziest thing YA'ALL have ever said..

And, if ya'all truly believe that the Republicans are committing terrorism then ya'all should have absolutely NO PROBLEM with Obama targeting Republicans for drone strikes...

Kidnapping, terrorism, extortion, arson, hostage-taking..

The Left (and ya'all) have accuse the Republicans of all of that and more...

So, if you TRULY believe in what ya'all and the Left are saying, then the ONLY logical course of action is to have the Republicans killed for their crimes..

So either Republicans should be targeted for termination...

Or ya'all should concede that ya'all (and the Left in general) have gone off the hyperbolic deep end...

Michale

NO ... ONE ... IS ... SAYING ... THAT

The economy is a result of a supply side philosophy which both Republicans and Democrats have bought into over the past 30 years. Bill Clinton, great example of a supply side Democrat.

When you purposefully plan a crisis though to get your way, yes, Republicans, you are responsible.

BTW ... here's the latest attempt to screw the economy.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/10/10/1246075/-Poison-pill-in-House-debt-limit-plan-would-be-a-hostage-taker-s-dream

I believe that a few people somehow think they're going to profit immensely if they can tank the economy.

-David

So, ya'all are completely on board with having ALL Republicans killed, right?

I'm sorry, Michale, but this is perhaps the craziest thing you've ever said.

Everything is the Republicans' fault.. It's ALL on them.

They are terrorists.

So, Obama should order drone strikes on ALL Republicans and have them killed because, after all, that's what Obama does with terrorists. It's what Obama SHOULD do with terrorists..

So, ya'all are completely on board with having ALL Republicans killed, right??

Do ya'all comprehend how far off the reservation ya'all are??

Michale

Let me just add a little more context for the "Dems are equally to blame" crowd. Republicans inherited a $6 trillion debt, being paid down by budget surpluses, from Clinton. They bequeathed Obama a $13.5 trillion debt increasing daily due to budget deficits. Obama took office in 2009, his first budget would have been for FY2010. Republican court challenges and the death of Senator Kennedy kept Democrats from, technically, controlling both House and Senate (if you count Lieberman (I) as a Democrat) in 2009. Republicans won the House in 2010 and have been blocking normal budget processes for three years. Government shut down because the President can't spend without House approval. The current debt, and deficit, are solely due to Republican policies, priorities, and initiatives. Just as Republicans dishonesty cast Obama as the reason for the shutdown. Republicans also dishonesty cast Obama as the reason for the debt and deficit. In fact Obama is not. He hasn't ever had even the opportunity to run up spending, the national debt, and budget deficit. The Republican party, since Obama's election, has had only one goal, to discredit, sabotage, and deny Obama's presidency. To that end they refuse to take yes for an answer. They're apoplectic that Obama enacted the Republican healthcare proposal. They bemoan the President's refusal of budget "negotiations" after he's agreed to accept Republican funding levels. Republicans care nothing about the debt. They care nothing about the deficit. They care nothing about the welfare of the country, or the rest of the world. All they care about is making Obama pay, by any means necessary, for having the effrontery to defeat Republicans in general elections. The rest of us are just collateral damage of no particular significance to Republicans.

Well done, CW. Though I have to say it's completely depressing to think what's happened to America.

-David