It's actually going to be a moot point..

The train wreck that is obamacare online will likely take months to fix..

There is absolutely NO WAY that Obama and the Democrats can enforce the mandate under such shoddy conditions...

Michale

And I can find articles that say, in fact, it's Obama and the Democrats who are at fault..

But it seems that ya'all only accept facts that support your conclusion and ignore all the facts that dispute the conclusion..

Come to think of it, ya'all pretty much do that with ANYTHING.. :D

As I told David earlier..

It's opinion based "facts" instead of fact based opinions..

JL,

i really do feel bad for the tea-partiers, because i think to some extent they really do have a point about the delayed mandate for small businesses (but not individuals).

THANK YOU!

FINALLY a little honesty around here!

It's like manna from heaven!! :D

Michale

the other reason obama does not concede is because he does not have any political reason to. he is a politician first, and realizes that he (unlike congress) has no forthcoming re-election campaign. since congressional republicans are mainly dragging down themselves, and to a lesser extent congressional democrats, obama probably figures he'll look good in comparison, especially in the long-term when events finally tilt back up.

i really do feel bad for the tea-partiers, because i think to some extent they really do have a point about the delayed mandate for small businesses (but not individuals). as in most cases and on most issues, their motives may be pure but their methods are batsh*t crazy.

JL

p.s. @CW, what do you think it would take for the U.S. to institute a federal citizen initiative process? nationwide protest? laws like the one about not paying california's legislature will never be passed by the legislature itself.

Try fact checking, or even reading, what you post rather than posting as much as possible. Quality over quantity. Ya, I know, but I can dream can't I?

Ergo, when they are silent, one can only conclude that they concede the point..

No, only you can conclude that. You post way too much for anyone or even all of us combined to cover everything. I can only speak for myself but it is rare that silence means that I concede. Usually it just means real life has ended my participation. But if it helps you sleep at night, keep on believing...

Uh, did you read the article?

Third paragraph:

In the midst of the government shutdown and Washington gridlock, the president is faring much better than his party, with large majorities of those surveyed finding little positive to say about Democrats. The negatives are even higher for the Republicans across the board, with 4 out of 5 people describing the GOP as unlikeable and dishonest and not compassionate, refreshing, inspiring or innovative.

Seems to back up exactly what Chris said. Republicans are being blamed more than Democrats who are both being blamed more than Obama...

As evidenced by the fact that no one has addressed Obama's Make-It-Hurt strategy of dealing with the shutdown... :D

Michale

Fair enough..

While (obviously) not referring to you, there are a few Weigantians who love to point out when I get something wrong..

Ergo, when they are silent, one can only conclude that they concede the point..

Kinda goes along with what I said a while back.

When Obama is up and morally, ethically and legally in the right, Weigantians love to argue the points with me.

When Obama is down or clearly in the wrong??

Not so much.. :D

Michale

i can't speak for everyone else, but generally i do relate to some aspects of what you write, even if i don't entirely agree. there's really no point nitpicking every detail you (or others) get wrong along the way. debating minutiae would be a waste of everyone's time, so for brevity's sake i try to stick to "big picture" issues.

JL

Ahhhh, so it was...

My bust. Apologies to you both.. :D

I have a day job you know. :)

Sucks to be you.. :D hehehehehehe J/K

What I don't understand is that I think you see us as an enemy. An enemy who needs to be countered at every turn using every means possible. Hope I'm wrong here.

I could ask why ya'all see fellow Americans who just happen to have different political views than you as the "enemy"...

But, to answer your question, of course I don't view ya'all as the enemy..

At worst, ya'all are spirited opponents.

Some more ah... "spirited" than others. :D

We care about our country as much as you do (which is one of the things I like about you btw - though we disagree). The people who don't care about our country (and I know this because they tell us) are the Ayn Randists. They care only about themselves.

And they would say the same thing about the Left..

It's like religion.

"WE'RE the chosen ones. All others who don't think as we do are heretics and savages"

I've looked. I can't find much to make this case.

That's because you are not objective..

If CW could clue me on on how he does his research to include just media reports rather than blog entries and such, I might take a stab at it...

If there was a strong case here though, don't you think conservative outlets would be all over it?

There ARE no conservative outlets... Save FNC.. :D

Michale

Are you sure about that?? :D

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20131011/DA9BQJ1G0.html

As an aside to YoYo....

You see my point??

You can find polls that can "prove" anything you want to prove..

That's why I never put any stock in polls...

Michale

That wasn't me, my friend. But I'd agree with Joshua. I have a day job you know. :)

What I don't understand is that I think you see us as an enemy. An enemy who needs to be countered at every turn using every means possible. Hope I'm wrong here.

We care about our country as much as you do (which is one of the things I like about you btw - though we disagree). The people who don't care about our country (and I know this because they tell us) are the Ayn Randists. They care only about themselves.

And someone could ALSO find historical facts to support the conclusion that this is all the Democrats' fault.

I've looked. I can't find much to make this case. Here and there you find Republicans who seem like they want to get past this. But they are always corralled back in to the extremism. John McCain is a good example. To be honest, I think sooner or later he will renounce the Republican party because of what it's becoming.

If there was a strong case here though, don't you think conservative outlets would be all over it?

-David

You misunderstand. The concept I was referring to ALSO listed historical facts.

Example...

Let's say I was writing a book about First Contact.

To "set the mood", I would quote newspaper articles about actual UFO siteings.

Historical facts used to set the stage for a fiction book..

What I am trying to say is that, while your facts are accurate, your conclusion COULD be all wrong.

And someone could ALSO find historical facts to support the conclusion that this is all the Democrats' fault..

Um, no. No, they couldn't. I didn't "pick and choose" anything. I used only hard news sources (no blogs), and even included rightie papers (Washington Times). I tried to balance the number of quotes I included from Dems and GOPers.

What I am saying is that, if someone were so inclined they could do what you did and find quotes and incidents that would make it look like the Democrats were at fault.

I am sure you would concede that you didn't quote EVERY incident that happened at those given moments..

In fact, I defy you to produce ONE article -- not from a blog, but from actual journalism sources -- that contradicts any of the facts as I've stated them.

I might take ya up on that challenge.. :D

If I don't follow-up then that means I concede the point. See my comment above to David.. :D

Michale

i would say it is evidence that no one has the patience to sift through that many errors ;)

If that were true, then NONE of my comments would be addressed by ya'all.. :D

The fact that ya'all address some and not others??

Well, the only logical conclusion is the ones that go un-addressed are conceded..

"Silence Gives Assent"

:D

Michale

mchty6 (21): I know many people like him. Drudge, Limbaugh (etc) are very, very good at keeping people coming back for more hate. The right-wing propaganda machine is excellent - considerably better than the left-wing one imo.

The rightwing machine IS very skilled at selling their misinformation/outright lies cocktails. The left doesn't have a real counterpoint because Netroots/leftwing blogs like DailyKos or outlets like Talking Points Memo aren't in the business of spreading lies. They are counter-voices but they aren't a "left's" version of FOX News or Rush Limbaugh and the rest. They don't hysterically invent nonsense and spew it at cult members.

Thanks for the kind words!

:-)

Michale [2] -

OK, while I know what you mean in sci-fi (Heinlein was a fan of this, especially in short stories, and I think Asimov also used it on occasion), this discussion is actually about historical facts.

OK, as for your second point:

If someone were so inclined and had your vast knowledge, they could pick and choose monthly events that would prove, beyond any doubt, that it's the Democrats who are completely and unequivocally at fault here.

Um, no. No, they couldn't. I didn't "pick and choose" anything. I used only hard news sources (no blogs), and even included rightie papers (Washington Times). I tried to balance the number of quotes I included from Dems and GOPers.

Of course, the quotes themselves are partisan. Of course they are -- they're from politicians. But I did not leave a single relevant article out from the results of my search. I quoted all articles which appeared. No picking and choosing at all. Every one. That's why it's such a long article.

The facts are the facts. This is a history of those facts. I defy you to challenge even ONE fact listed here. Good luck.

In fact, I defy you to produce ONE article -- not from a blog, but from actual journalism sources -- that contradicts any of the facts as I've stated them. Like I said, you might be able to come up with Republican partisan quotes spinning things the other way from Democratic partisan quotes, but that's it. The facts are the facts, pal.

David [3] -

Spread this as far and as wide as you can. I got the idea after seeing the list of the 19 times, it's kind of an extended version of that list. But I also tried to make it as complete as possible, to live up to the name "definitive list."

Michale [5] -

Polling shows the American people are turning on Republicans in droves. Republican Party just hit a new all-time low approval in TWO separate polls -- 24% and 28%. Obamacare approval is up seven points in a month, and disapproval fell one point. Every poll I've seen shows the public blaming Republicans at a much higher rate than either Democrats or Obama.

And -- the icing on the cake -- Obama's job approval poll numbers are rising, just like I predicted in the last OPW.

The longer this goes on, the worse it gets for Republicans. Apparently, Boehner has just figured this out, because he seems to be on the brink of caving on the debt ceiling.

He's going to trumpet to his party that he "forced Obama and the Dems to the table" -- which is hilarious, which my two articles prove.

Michale [5] -

Speaking of "picking and choosing"...

michty6 [13] -

OK, now that was hilarious! I like the extended version.

:-)

michty6 [21] -

Rasmussen (a righty-leaning polling operation) has had Obama at 50-52 points recently. So that's the other outlier, with the one that put him at 37%.

michty6 [22] -

The American public is not being told a big part of this story: that we're going to do this all over again come Thanksgiving (or perhaps Christmas). This part of the story just isn't really getting through, here.

OK, that's about it for now. Check out part 2 of the article, which brings the timeline up to date.

-CW

-CW

i would say it is evidence that no one has the patience to sift through that many errors ;)

I have always liked James Woods...

Now I positively ADORE the man!!! :D

Michale

Ya'all are dead on ballz accurate..

Boehner and all the Republicans are terrorists..

Of course, this being the case ya'all would have absolutely NO PROBLEM with Obama ordering drone strikes to kill these domestic terrorists....

Right??

Do ya'all seriously comprehend how far off the reservation ya'all have gone???

Michale

grrrrrrr

IT professionals are stating that Obama's more than half a billion dollar website is so bad, it will likely take many months before all the bugs are ironed out...

You may be witnessing the fall of America. Brought to you from within. If not this time around, we'll 'eff it up next.

I think certain people at the top believe they can profit immensely from the resulting chaos. But who knows?

-David

WOW...

Senate Democrats pass House legislation to pay military death benefits..

Obama is against it...

Once again, is it really smart of the Obama to diss the military like this?

Especially considering the Left's history with the military??

Michale

Good article on the pain still to come from the shut-down:

We're still waiting on the pain you and Obama promised from the Sequestor....

Your (and Obama's) credibility on alleged "pain" is sorely lacking.. :D

Michale

The provision would ban practices, used by Democratic and Republican administrations for decades, which have effectively allowed the Treasury to limit investments in pensions and other funds when the government bumps up against its borrowing limit. These steps have extended the time that Treasury can continue borrowing and paying the nation’s bills while Congress debates terms for raising the debt ceiling.

FFS are they capable of passing ANYTHING that doesn't have a poison pill. WTF is wrong with these morons!?!?

What they are trying to do is, instead of moving America away from the cliff, build a BIGGER sharper cliff and hide where it is so that it is more likely America goes over the edge.

Unbelievably moronic.

Obama and the Democrats will HAVE to delay the obamacare mandate..

IP professionals are stating that Obama's more than half a billion dollar website is so bad, it will likely take many months before all the bugs are ironed out...

I may be wrong but I don't think that even Obama and the Democrats are stoopid enough to enforce the mandate when the sign up process was such a train wreck..

I may be wrong. Obama et al just MIGHT be that stoopid..

But it's likely they are not and there will HAVE to be a delay in the mandate for the American people.

There WILL be a delay on the mandate for Americans..

Remember, you heard it here first..

Michale

What part of "with this shutdown issue" did you not understand???

Congressional job approval? 10.5% in the RCP aggregate. LOL. It's very, very, very clear who people are blaming.

Congress... Of which the Democrats hold the Senate....

We'll know in the 2014 midterms who is right and who is wrong..

However, again, I point to my dead on ballz accuracy with regards to the shutdown... :D

Michale

On this subject:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Qh3TeTxgNVo

I think I speak for the rest of the world when I say get your shit together. Seriously this pushing to the cliff and back is beyond a joke. Markets need CERTAINTY. Until you provide it you'll only going to see a shitty recovery.

For example, spot the point today when Boehner said they were going to increase the debt limit: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2013/10/SPXlasthreedays.png

The roller-coaster of the stock market, based on whether or not a bunch of lunatic moronic House Republicans decide to avoid economic calamity or dive head first in, over the past few years is an absolute joke...

Hahaha that made me laugh. I remember very well your track record with polls, President Romney reminds me every day...

And of course the Obama 37% approval is acceptable as a data point. As are all approval polls which put his approval rating at 44.1% (according to the RCP aggregate).

Congressional job approval? 10.5% in the RCP aggregate. LOL. It's very, very, very clear who people are blaming.

Like I said, those are the facts. I know in Michale-world everyone blames Obama and Romney is going to win in a landslide - but as we've seen before Michale-world and reality are 2 very different places :)

Paula,
I would be very interested in reading what sort of stuff he would write if he went cold turkey on right wing media. What if Michale started looking at the world through his own eyes, not through the hysterical, hate-filled, "everything-ist" rightwing media lens? His addiction is his weakness, as it is with all his compatriots.

This would be amazing. Unfortunately Michale is stuck in Drudge-world but I think if he opened his eyes and stopped reading Drudge he would quickly see what is happening ;)

I know many people like him. Drudge, Limbaugh (etc) are very, very good at keeping people coming back for more hate. The right-wing propaganda machine is excellent - considerably better than the left-wing one imo.

Your *only* evidence to support your claim is that you don't like what the facts show... :D

Michale

michty6 (15): Michale strives to present himself as unbiased by insisting that "both sides do it" but then cites various right wing outlets to support his argument de jour.

More often than not, I cite LEFT wing outlets.. :D

But hay.. I am the epitome for fairness..

Find an example of a time that I blamed Democrats for doing the same thing as Republicans when, in fact, it wasn't so..

Just one..

He can't recognize that "both sides do it" is a non-argument.

Actually, it IS an argument. It's just not the argument that ya'all WANT to argue..

It's an argument for the hypocrisy displayed by those who castigate a Republican for X and then give Democrats a pass for doing X even worse...

This has already been hashed out with SF Bear.. See "Yea, But" defense.. :D

I would be very interested in reading what sort of stuff he would write if he went cold turkey on right wing media. What if Michale started looking at the world through his own eyes, not through the hysterical, hate-filled, "everything-ist" rightwing media lens? His addiction is his weakness, as it is with all his compatriots.

Actually, it is all thru my own processing..

And the fact that 90% of my comments go un-commented on is evidence that no one has the facts to argue the point. :D

To hear ya'all tell it, Obama and the Democrats are always right all the time and Republicans are always wrong all of the time..

Ya'all think that and you question MY position???

Seriously?? :D

David,

Except when you look at the facts, they're not.

Of course they're not...

See above.. :D

Michale

Except when you look at the facts, they're not.

What then?

a) Claim liberal bias
b) Claim both sides do it
c) Change the subject
d) All of the above

?

-David

If he is sincere, it's depressing. He brings so much energy and passion to his arguments, but can't muster any genuine clarity, or consistency. He can't recognize that "both sides do it" is a non-argument. Jay Rosen has a great post on this: http://pressthink.org/2013/10/the-production-of-innocence-in-the-reporting-of-american-politics-a-pressthink-analysis/

If he's insincere, well, he's very good at portraying a person who think accountability only happens to other people, which is one of the central identifying characteristics of today's conservative/pub/libertarian.

I would be very interested in reading what sort of stuff he would write if he went cold turkey on right wing media. What if Michale started looking at the world through his own eyes, not through the hysterical, hate-filled, "everything-ist" rightwing media lens? His addiction is his weakness, as it is with all his compatriots.

Addicts excel, above all, at rationalization, which is what his excruciatingly despicable leaders are currently displaying. It's never their fault.

Chris: excellent timeline, illustrating quite starkly, what a bunch of utterly hypocritical crybabies these republicans are. The problem is that the drunken teenagers have the keys to the car -- they're driving drunk and talking on their cellphones at the same time.

Obama and the Dems have to get the car to stop -- they, or the big cement wall the car is heading towards.

And Democrats blame Republicans..

The facts are probably somewhere in the middle..

These are the facts. I know.

No, those are the polls...

If you accept THAT poll, then you MUST accept the poll that shows Obama's popularity has plummeted to 37%..

You are not allowed to pick and choose which polls are right and which are not..

It's against the rules. :D

Considering *MY* track record of predictions in all this shutdown/obamacare crap, I would say I have called things pretty spot on to date.. :D

Michale

No. The facts are that most Republicans blame Obama/the Democrats. Many are happy that Government is shut-down. Most Independents and Democrats (i.e. the majority of the country) blame Republicans. Taken together, the majority of the country blames Republicans by a long, long, long way. Every since poll has indicated this. Republicans have a double digit lead in every single poll on blame about what's happening. Approval ratings for the Republican party are at an ALL TIME LOW. The Democrats v Republicans polls show the House would be Democrat (only just - because of gerrymandering a 6 point lead is barely enough) if an election was held tomorrow.

These are the facts. I know. Michale world is different, Romney won the election, Obama is the devil etc etc. But none of the Echo Chamber nonsense changes any of these facts.

Democrats = We propose this budget
Republicans = Your spending is too high, we propose this reduced spending budget
Democrats = Ok fine. We compromise and accept your reduced spending budget.
Republicans = Sorry we changed our minds. We now propose a reduced spending budget with an add on that requires Obama to shoot himself in the face.
Democrats = ???? WTF, what on earth is wrong with you morons. Of course we're not going to accept that...
Republicans = Ok let's compromise 'we only want him to shoot himself in the stomcach now'.
Democrats = You guys are out of your mind.
Republicans = Fine. We'll compromise further. 'We only want him to shoot himself in the foot now'. That's it. We're done.
Democrats = You've got to be kidding me, just pass the God damn reduced spending bill we negotiated. Heck we'll even run it through the Senate.
Republicans = OMG I CAN'T BELIEVE OBAMA WON'T NEGOTIATE ON THIS - HE WON'T COMPROMISE! HE IS THE DEVIL, SOCIALIST, EVIL etc etc etc

Isn't that what ya'all advocated that the DEMOCRATS should do???

So, why is it evil for the Republicans to do, but it's perfectly acceptable for Democrats to do??

Michale

I made my own version of the budget story in a comment on here a few days, I'll replicate it here since it seems relevant ;)

Democrats = We'd like to meet to begin formal discussions on a CR for the Government.
Republicans = No, we'd only like to meet 1 week before the budget date. And it's nothing to do with us wanting to take the country hostage, it's because you know we're busy and stuff

Repeat the above 18 times for every formal Democrat request. Fast forward to 1 week before budget due date

Democrats = We propose this budget
Republicans = Your spending is too high, we propose this reduced spending budget
Democrats = Ok fine. We compromise and accept your reduced spending budget.
Republicans = Sorry we changed our minds. We now propose a reduced spending budget with an add on that requires Obama to shoot himself in the face.
Democrats = ???? WTF, what on earth is wrong with you morons. Of course we're not going to accept that...
Republicans = Ok let's compromise 'we only want him to shoot himself in the stomcach now'.
Democrats = You guys are out of your mind.
Republicans = Fine. We'll compromise further. 'We only want him to shoot himself in the foot now'. That's it. We're done.
Democrats = You've got to be kidding me, just pass the God damn reduced spending bill we negotiated. Heck we'll even run it through the Senate.
Republicans = OMG I CAN'T BELIEVE OBAMA WON'T NEGOTIATE ON THIS - HE WON'T COMPROMISE! HE IS THE DEVIL, SOCIALIST, EVIL etc etc etc

Of course not..

But you have to admit, it's definitely interesting.

It would be like Campus Reform going to Berkeley and having ANYONE say that Obama and the Democrats are at fault...

Sorry, Michale, but I can pretty much tell you what anything Campus Reform puts together is going to say or support.

Yea, they are no different than activists on the Left..

If they had had a strong majority showing of support for Democrats, they would have likely buried the whole report.

But the interesting thing is that the DIDN'T have a strong showing of Democrat Party support..

THAT's what makes it an interesting report...

It would be interesting if the final tally reflects the initial trend...

Michale

Do you honestly believe "Campus Reform" showed all of the students they interviewed?

Sorry, Michale, but I can pretty much tell you what anything Campus Reform puts together is going to say or support.

-David

I guess Boehner is going to call Obama's bluff about sitting down to negotiate..

Time will tell if it's simply another BS story from Obama...

Ball's in your court, Obama.

Put up or, for the gods sake, shut up!!

Michale

What are you saying??

That students at an uber liberal college are too stoopid to recognize political propoganda??

Further, from the video, all the guy is asking is "Who do you think shut down the government?"

Doesn't seem that there is any co-ercion or hidden meaning..

Do you honestly believe that everyone in the country believes that Republicans are to blame??

Is it not possible that there are people in this country who sincerely believe that Democrats are too blame??

That's the problem with demonizing people just because they believe differently..

It makes it IMPOSSIBLE to find common ground..

Michale

I'm sure they interviewed a "fair and balanced" representative sample of college students!

-David

That's simply the website that is putting out the video..

The campus is one of the most uber-liberal campuses in the country...

I know, I know.. If it doesn't fit the model it MUST be wrong or biased, right?? :D

Again, you're talking opinion-based "facts", not fact-based opinions...

Michale

It looks kind of like Fox News for kids.

In other words, I'm sure they're getting an objective view! :)

-David

http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=5147

I mean, if young people at a decidedly liberal campus are putting the blame on Obama and the Democrats, you KNOW that trouble is afoot...

Michale

This is unbelievable! This should be in every newspaper in the country. Too bad the corporate news would never print it.

Remember when I asked you to watch that movie UNTHINKABLE??

Remember what your beef was with it??

I'm just sayin'.... :D

Michale

This is unbelievable! This should be in every newspaper in the country. Too bad the corporate news would never print it.

Reposting immediately!

-David

It reminds me of a writing style that authors sometimes use, mostly in science fiction to make their books and movies more believable..

What they do is preface the start of their stories with real world headlines or use real world events sprinkled throughout the story. They pick and choose headlines that moves their stories along.

For example, in the movie CONTACT, you have President Clinton making a real speech about a momentous event in human history and the writers use that speech to move their sci fi story along.

It has been done a couple times recently with President Obama, though I can't recall the specific movies..

That's the feeling I get when I read your commentary.

You have to admit. If someone were so inclined and had your vast knowledge, they could pick and choose monthly events that would prove, beyond any doubt, that it's the Democrats who are completely and unequivocally at fault here...

Of course, we all know that such picking and choosing wouldn't tell the WHOLE story, right?? That there ARE always (well, mostly always) multiple sides to every issue or event..

The fact is that BOTH Partys are at fault for not working this out.

But, in the here and now, it's within the Democrats power to end this by giving the American people the same break they gave their corporate cronies...

Of course, it IS true that it's ALSO within the Republicans power to end this by capitulating and surrendering to the will of the Democrat Party.

BUT....

Of the two, which option is better for the American people.

Obviously, it would be better for the American people, especially the middle class, if the Democrats were to give in..

Granted, that might not be good for the Democratic Party..

But, I have to ask..

Where's the priority here??

More importantly, where SHOULD the priority be??

Michale

Thank-you for all of your hard work - always! - but, especially for providing this timeline. You personify what it means to provide a public service.

I haven't read this entire post yet but I will, knowing that it will represent the gold standard, as your columns always do.

Thanks again!