Then we'll have actual facts on which to base the statements on..

Michale

those initial policies must been so ridiculously bare-bones and high-deductible that they'd be unlikely to cover anything at all. yes, obamacare's mandate forces you to buy a certain minimum standard of care. yes, it costs more than the previous minimum for the young and healthy, but it also provides more to help keep them healthy, and ultimately it's not that much money we're talking about. i paid more than any of those rates for very basic insurance between college and grad school, and that was in 1998!

JL

good point. maybe that's the 3d chess plan behind the more piecemeal implementation. if the plan turns out to be effective, the R's rail against it at the mid-terms, but with obvious evidence available that the program they're railing against is effective, causing dems to win big. if it ends up being horrific, the administration has time to make changes, blame the republican delaying tactics for the "temporary glitches," and at least hedge the mid-term losses.

JL

I have no problem conceding the point..

It's a Kobyashi Maru, I completely agree...

So, we agree that obamacare WILL screw over many MANY Americans and the status quo would have also done that.

Agreed??

Including you interestingly enough...

Actually, I have ALWAYS conceded that..

So, what happens to Obama, the Democrats and this country if obamacare is even WORSE than the horror stories paint it to be??

Just wait until we see how many citizens of the empire he kills in Star Wars episode VII...

Touche' :D

Michale

Just wait until we see how many citizens of the empire he kills in Star Wars episode VII...

Some people.. MANY people are going to continued to be screwed if obamacare goes away and we go back to what was before. Why do you refuse concede this point?

Everyone here wants to put forth the mirage that obamacare is the end all get all

Has anyone here said as such? Most the posts I have read are cautiously optimistic that it will be better than the current system but "end all get all"? you will have to point that one out...

and NO ONE wants to address the fact that they could be wrong.

Including you interestingly enough...

:D

Was it necessary to kill 6 billion Vulcans to further a resurgence of Trek-dom?? :D

Michale

And you accuse others of spin...

It's not spin, it's fact...

If Democrats compromise on obamacare, then they can avert the shutdown.

Democrats refuse, ergo the shutdown is all on them....

The GOP is simply doing what they are SUPPOSED to do..

Represent and act on behalf of the will of the people..

What part of that do you not understand???

Michale

My point has always been the same..

Some people.. MANY people are going to be scrooed by obamacare...

This is a fact that NO ONE here will concede... Everyone here wants to put forth the mirage that obamacare is the end all get all and NO ONE wants to address the fact that they could be wrong.

How do I know??

Just ask yourself one question..

Somehow, I don't think so...

I think this year delay was the plan the entire time.

It was Obama that made the year delay a reality..

Why delay it for corporate cronies and leave the American people holding the bag???

Betcha no one will answer THAT one either.. :D

Michale

You have posted this link before. I find it interesting that you only cite the lowest cost bracket (young/healthy) and fail to mention that under Obamacare the bronze level of insurance (the cheapest) offers more services that the lowest cost, high deductible plan that currently has the listed lowest price. Got any stats for what the same person would pay currently for "bronze" level of care? How about middle age rate comparisons? Average rate comparisons across all age groups? Pre-existing conditions? Why should I be afraid of Obamacare when you refuse to offer a complete picture? Something to hide?

Looks like Democrats have opted to shut down the government rather than give any quarter or compromise on obamacare...

And you accuse others of spin...

I really hope the democrats don't fall for this obvious political trick. The Republicans have played their hand. They are deathly afraid that Obamacare is going to work and people will like it. If it was the train wreck that your years of hysterical opinion pieces and other half truths would have us believe, why not let the train wreck and reap the benefits during the mid-term elections as others here have mentioned?

I think this year delay was the plan the entire time. That way the republicans can campaign against Obamacare until this time next year and then over-hype the likely implementation problems that would happen with any large government program in the month run up to the November election. Brilliant really, if it works...

I've picked up on a few bows to the old series/movies..

When Sulu ordered the shuttle bay to make sure the shuttle was ready for Kirk and Spock, he told them to prepare the "trader shuttle" that they had "confiscated during the Mudd incident"... This refers to Harry Mudd and the TOS episodes, MUDD'S WOMEN and I' MUDD...

Also, the moon over Qu'nos was fragmented and in pieces. That's Praxis, the Klingon moon that exploded in STAR TREK VI: THE UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY

I love when they do little things like that, that only true Trek geeks can recognize...

So be it...

Democrats own the shutdown...

Michale

I'm willing to play along but I can only speak for myself.

On the funny side, I loved the look on Chekov's face when Kirk told him to put on the red shirt.

I was rolling when that happened!

James T. Kirk: When were you going to tell me that?
Spock: When it became relevant, as it just did.

-David

Why is it when a sci-fi TV series hits the big screen, they have to try out every possible uniform variation??

I am watching the latest Trek flick and I counted 5 different uniform variations within the first 30 minutes of the movie..

On the funny side, I loved the look on Chekov's face when Kirk told him to put on the red shirt..

You could just SEE Chekov's life flashing before his eyes.. :D hehehehehehe

If the American people want it stopped, then our representatives have a DUTY to fulfill the will of the people..

How about this?

Here in Weigantia, we adopt a Wait And See attitude..

No PRO or CON obamacare comments for a period of 7 days.

After that, ALL of us will have a better idea of what the facts are...

Michale

Let's implement it and let people see for themselves.

What do you think?

-David

The spin that no employees are having their hours/pay cut..

The spin that no businesses are closing because of obamacare.

The spin that no doctors are leaving their practice because of obamacare.

The spin that people will be able to keep their same doctors...

The spin that people will be able to keep their same plans.

Should I go on??

If obamacare is so awesome, then Dems and Obama should just shut up about it and people will see for themselves.. Right??

Michale

Such as ...?

- People under 26 can remain covered on their parents plans?
- Prohibiting insurers from dropping coverage?
- Capping out-of-pocket expenses?
- Expanding coverage to people so they're not clogging up emergency rooms?
- Access to preventative care?

What "spin" are you talking about?

-David

One of the most compelling pieces of evidence that the ACA is a train wreck is how much spin the Obama Administration is putting out there and how much they are simply ignoring the bad reports..

Once again.. It works both ways.. :D

If obamacare is so great and awesome, why doesn't Obama et al just shut the frak up??

Michale

Let's be honest ... If today's Obama-hating conservatives thought it would be a train wreck, I think they'd be all for it.

-David

What if I am right and ya'all are wrong?

What happens if obamacare is WORSE than the horror story it's being made out to be??

Anyone wanna take a stab at THAT!?? :D

Somehow, I don't think so...

Michale

EXCEPT...

Except the business mandate has already BEEN delayed..

To delay that but let the personal mandate stand is simply proof positive that obamacare serves corporate interests ONLY...

Michale

not all the benefits are conjecture either; some went into place right away. but you're right, much of the law really is conjecture until it's implemented. therefore, it's vital not to delay this thing any more, which should never have been delayed as long as it was in the first place. if a year after full implementation it's really as bad as you think, THAT would be the time to roll it back and replace it with something better.

Young consumers in many states will be offered rates that are lower than some initial forecasts, but still significantly higher than they may be used to seeing, on health-insurance exchanges run either entirely or in part by the federal government. New federal requirements will require carriers to price insurance equally regardless of consumers' medical history or gender and will offer more generous coverage and more benefits than current plans may offer. Compare insurance premiums for the lowest-cost ‘bronze’ plan for a 27-year-old single person with the current lowest-cost option for a man in a metro area in 36 states where the federal government will oversee exchanges. Some people may be eligible for subsidies towards the cost of coverage.

STATE Obamacare CURRENT
Alabama $170 $80
Alaska $254 $79
Arizona $139 $50
Arkansas $190 $31
Delaware $203 $51
Florida $163 $66
Georgia $166 $43

That's just a sample.. I didn't feel like having to adjust the text for all 50 states..

You could read the facts here:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303983904579095731139251304.html?mod=djemalertNEWS#project%3DEXCHANGES0924%26articleTabs%3Di

Again, you are simply looking at quantity and ignoring quality.

50 million insured with crappy and expensive plans is NOT better than 50 million uninsured.

That's my opinion anyways..

Michale

As much as I dispute their religion, they ARE Americans and they DO have the right to their beliefs..

obamacare is harming Americans 6 ways from sunday, with no tangible benefit yet..

Michale

that's not what i said. i repeat, the numbers aren't there. about a thousand times as many people get something as lose something. of course it's going to be lower quality and higher cost than countries who have a government option. that was the corporate basis for obamacare. however, when the only alternative on the table is fifty million uninsured and dependent upon the rest of us funding their emergencies, i'll still take it.

JL

Except for one small point.

The people being harmed are being harmed NOW..

The people who will be helped is vaporware...

Michale

the rates and coverage for the exchanges have already been published, and they're at least slightly better than feces. follow CW's and yoyo's comments for the factual basis of that judgment.

JL

There are hundreds of stories of businesses cutting back their hours and hence, cutting their employees pay.

There are hundreds of stories of people getting hit by HUGE rate increases. I posted the chart of how young people's insurance rates are going to sky rocket..

There are hundreds of stories of people who are losing their doctors and their insurance plans under obamacare...

on the president's side there are literally millions of human faces who will benefit by getting health insurance when before they couldn't.

I would dispute the "millions"..

Further, it's ONE thing to say that "millions" will have coverage..

But if the coverage is sub-par and too expensive, what does it matter??

If you have MILLIONS of people who have a piece of crap in their hand, the quantity doesn't make up for the lack of quality or the fact that said crap is not affordable..

Wouldn't you agree???

i have followed every link you sent, and with few exceptions, the numbers of real people harmed just aren't there.

They are as "there" as the "real people" who claim that obamacare will be the greatest thing for them since sliced pizza...

I'll grant you that all the bad I point out is conjecture. Just as all the good you point out is ALSO conjecture...

But not ALL the bad *is* conjecture. The people who are getting their hours and their pay cut are being harmed right now. That isn't conjecture.

It's fact...

Michale

"Don't grieve, Admiral. It is logical. The needs of the many outweigh..."

well, you get the idea. now to see if dems manage yet again to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

who are they? how many people? whatever negative results there may be, i have seen nothing that suggests those negatives are equal to the positives. on the president's side there are literally millions of human faces who will benefit by getting health insurance when before they couldn't. i have followed every link you sent, and with few exceptions, the numbers of real people harmed just aren't there.

JL

I know that I would be *happy* to do my part! :D

Onward.....

TS,

Since I'm just sittin' around drinking coffee this bee-u-tee-full morning, I might as well take up your challenge.

Must be nice. Although we haven't seen any hurricanes in years around these parts (Human Caused Global Warming, my left butt cheek!!) we had a really rainy weekend. Which actually suited me fine because, as Eddie Rabbit said, "I love a rainy night"!! :D

Here's how I see the Middle Eastern panoramic view, centering on Syria. There are 4 major actors: Syria, plus Russia, Iran and the US, with a large supporting cast.

I would disagree.. Israel is definitely in the top 3 when it comes to regional players. But I will admit up front that I am definitely biased when it comes to Israel. Having worked with their military and civilian security apparatus, Israel and her people are worthy of great respect..

Forget the RED LINE remark, it's only important as US domestic media chatter. Basically, Obama said he was concerned about the use of chemical weapons, but committed to nothing.

Funny how the Left is falling over itself wanting to forget that "red line"...

I would be happy to if I didn't know for a stone cold fact that the ONLY reason that the Left wants to forget the "red line" is because it was such a stoopid and moronic play by Obama.

Tell ya what. I'll never mention Obama's moronic red line again, if it's conceded by Weigantians that said red line (or, more accurately, the issuance of said red line) represents a complete, utter and unequivocal failure of leadership on the part of Obama and is solely and completely the cause of the mess we find ourselves in, vis a vis Syria...

:D

2000 people, roughly speaking died in recent chemical attacks in Syria. It's pretty clear that Syrian government forces committed these atrocities, but much less clear that Assad ordered them. It's not clear to what extent Assad controls his own forces anymore. Did the chemical warfare have strategic impact on the Civil War? No, they just slightly enlarged the already huge civilian body count.

Doesn't matter if Assad ordered it or not. The attack was carried out by his forces and, as such, the buck stops with him...

Would it matter to history if it was learned that Hitler didn't actually order the atrocities committed by the Nazis??

Not a damn bit..

Neither Russia, Iran, or the US see any utility in the Syrian government maintaining a chemical warfare capability. That's why they are likely to be removed, regardless of Assad's personal preferences. "You'll shoot your eye out kid." say Iran, Russian and the USA. The BB gun is taken away.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

ALL we have to date is a PROMISE by Assad to give up his CWMDs... I also point out that there are absolutely NO punitive measures on the table should Assad renege on this promise.

NONE.. ZERO.. ZILCH... NADA...

Seen in this larger context, does punishing Assad look all that important? Does it bring back any dead? Preventing future use of chemical weapons is more important, and getting rid of them does just that.

And where's the guarantee that Assad will actually follow thru and actually get rid of the CWMDs??

Assad and Putin have maneuvered Obama into the perfect LOSE LOSE situation..

There is simply NO WAY that Obama can make a credible threat to Assad after this disgusting display of faux-diplomacy..

NO.... WAY....

So, tell me.. Where is Assad's incentive to actually follow thru and get rid of his CWMDs??

How do you punish a dictator with cruise missiles?

Again, think of Assad as a bratty child..

How do you punish this bratty child??

Take away his toys. Throw his Air Defences, his barracks, his military infrastructure into the garbage...

THAT is punishment..

Closing thoughts: The world is messy. If you want to clean it up, first contain what's already spreading, try not to tread in it and certainly don't throw more of the same stuff on the floor.

No.. FIRST you have to establish the moral, ethical high ground and above all else, you have to PROVE that you have the will to follow thru.. You don't threaten your teenage daughter with a month's grounding if she ever comes in late again and then ignore it when she does..

Obama has proven to the world that the US will not back up it's ultimatums..

The next time Obama issues a "red line", he is going to be laughed at..

And rightly so...

JL,

that aside, you're weakening your position by denying the fifteen percent or so of the population (including CW's friends) who it is extremely likely to help.

Oh, I have already conceded that. Yes, there WILL be people who will likely like obamacare and will likely be helped by obamacare...

But what about the people who will be hurt or harmed by obamacare?

What about the people who will be scrooed over by obamacare?? What about the people who are being scrooed over RIGHT NOW by obamacare??

The Left won't address that. Obama won't even admit that those people exist!

What's up with THAT!???

as to iran, i share your skepticism.

It's impossible NOT to be skeptical about Iran's sudden "charm offensive"... Of course, the Left and Obama are positively SWOONING at the chance to play with the diplomacy blocks..

While they are blindly playing with their shiny new blocks, Iran is standing behind the US and Israel with a 2x4...

CW,

Before I even begin answering comments, here's a quote that seems perfect to describe the Republicans' hostage-taking "Do what I say, or I'll blow my own head off" stance on the shutdown:

That MIGHT have been somewhat accurate before.

But now the GOP has latched onto a new goal.

And it's a goal that the vast majority of Americans support..

So, if Obama and the Democrats decide to shutdown the government rather than give the American people the same delay that Obama and the Democrats gave their corporate cronies....

Well, guess who is going to look like the selfish morons..

I'll give you a hint..

It won't be Republicans...

David,

Psst. Your king and queen are on the wrong starting squares. RT @SenTedCruz

Heheh.

That's a nice looking chess set..

But I prefer this one....

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/2-SETS-STAR-TREK-Tridimensional-3D-CHESS-Game-Franklin-Mint-1994-Complete-Board-/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/KaIAAMXQb2JSEYpV/$T2eC16J,!zEE9s3!(INRBSEYpUThww~~60_57.JPG

Anyone shopping around for a XMAS present for me?? THAT would be it. :D

Michale

A quick Twitter funny:

From Senator Ted Cruz to Senator Mike Lee:
#YourMove

https://twitter.com/SenTedCruz/status/383748615895662592/photo/1

Response:

Psst. Your king and queen are on the wrong starting squares. RT @SenTedCruz

Heheh.

-David

Nothing that big or in my face. I get a thin footer ad that scrolls oddly on the ipad. The desktop is so locked down and just about everything blocked I rarely see ads of any type anywhere. I'm just glad the Banter media thing seems to have disappeared. There were many days that during certain hours I could not reach the site on the ipad. It wanted to load the banter thing first, which would hang, before the content.

I knew someone that worked at Oppenheimer funds. They used to have a lady on the switchboard when you first called in that had the greatest, classic New York accent...

I have noticed a strange ad here on CW.COM I was wondering if anyone else has..

http://sjfm.us/temp/cw_ad.jpg

Now, I would be the LAST one to begrudge CW any ad assistance..

Now, me personally, I really dislike these kinds of ads...

So, I was just curious as to if anyone else has seen them...

I'll get to the business at hand (JL, TS and CW) in a few... Dinners on and I am starving! :D

Michale

OK... Be honest...

https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/q79/s720x720/65041_664215716930439_1531741154_n.jpg

Who's excited!!?? :D

Michale

OK, that's a new one. So now we've got:

Country/Western music
The CW (TV channel)
conventional wisdom
chemical weapons

and, now:

Cold War.

Jeez, most of that list is pretty embarrassing, one way or another... sigh...

(heh)

-CW

Before I even begin answering comments, here's a quote that seems perfect to describe the Republicans' hostage-taking "Do what I say, or I'll blow my own head off" stance on the shutdown:

"Ooh, baby, you are so talented... and they are so dumb."
-Blazing Saddles

You'll have to do a search on the quote to see the whole scene I'm referring to. Except that, unlike the townsfolk, the Democrats will stand back and watch the GOP pull the trigger, I think.

:-)

-CW

thank you for the links, details and charts on the impact of obamacare, which you posted on a prior post. they were incredibly informative.

michale,

the main reason i don't fully support obamacare is because there's no government insurance option. without it, i think it's essentially just a way to create more profits for most insurance companies. that aside, you're weakening your position by denying the fifteen percent or so of the population (including CW's friends) who it is extremely likely to help.

as to iran, i share your skepticism.

JL

Very nicely put ... one of the most enjoyable comments I've ever had the pleasure of reading, here or anywhere else.

Since I'm just sittin' around drinking coffee this bee-u-tee-full morning, I might as well take up your challenge.

I think you are getting hung up on a few trees in a much larger geopolitical forest.

Here's how I see the Middle Eastern panoramic view, centering on Syria. There are 4 major actors: Syria, plus Russia, Iran and the US, with a large supporting cast.

Syria is falling apart. Iran is intent on expanding it's regional influence, and one of the points of expansion is Syria. Russia does not like this one bit, Syria is part of their perceived sphere of influence. The US wants to contain Iran and is playing all three of these interests against each other. This is classic Cold War methodology. The US Government perceives, accurately I believe, that the US came out of the Cold War on top of the Cold War heap. The other actors have all learned lessons from the CW (Cold war, not our esteemed host).

Forget the RED LINE remark, it's only important as US domestic media chatter. Basically, Obama said he was concerned about the use of chemical weapons, but committed to nothing.

2000 people, roughly speaking died in recent chemical attacks in Syria. It's pretty clear that Syrian government forces committed these atrocities, but much less clear that Assad ordered them. It's not clear to what extent Assad controls his own forces anymore. Did the chemical warfare have strategic impact on the Civil War? No, they just slightly enlarged the already huge civilian body count.

Use of chemical weapons just signals that: 1) Assad is incompetent (already a very strong signal) and/or 2) Not in control of his own forces (strongly suspected).

Neither Russia, Iran, or the US see any utility in the Syrian government maintaining a chemical warfare capability. That's why they are likely to be removed, regardless of Assad's personal preferences. "You'll shoot your eye out kid." say Iran, Russian and the USA. The BB gun is taken away.

I suspect the US Government sees Russia as an effective counterpoise to Iran's meddling in Syria. Russia actually has some boots on Syrian ground, something the US is not about to commit to.
Iran and Iran's proxies may be biting off more than they can chew in Syria, we'll see how that gamble plays out.

Iran has been very patient and very methodical about their nuclear program. They seem less concerned about building and testing a nuclear bomb than having the credible capability to build a nuclear weapon quickly. There are very few choke points in their program (clever Iranians), which makes for few game changing military options by interested parties (like Israel). If Iran can negotiate a "this close, but no further" agreement with the Great Powers, they'll be happy, and so will the Great Powers, if the agreement is enforceable.

Seen in this larger context, does punishing Assad look all that important? Does it bring back any dead? Preventing future use of chemical weapons is more important, and getting rid of them does just that. Should the chance arise to bring Assad before the dock, by all means, but I'm not counting on it.

How do you punish a dictator with cruise missiles?
Assad probably doesn't sleep in the same bed very often, so you are unlikely to kill or injure him. Command and control centers are only useful when they command and control something, which in Assad's case seem dubious (see above). Holes in runways are easy to repair, and Syria's air force seems of little help in winning the civil war. Targeting Swiss banks - maybe.... but I foresee blow back from exercising that option. (It's an ironic joke people, I'm not actually advocating that).

Coffee pot is empty. Closing thoughts: The world is messy. If you want to clean it up, first contain what's already spreading, try not to tread in it and certainly don't throw more of the same stuff on the floor.

The second time, to apologize.. :D

My sense of diplomacy was on the blink when I made the above post.. I could have phrased things somewhat differently..

Mea culpa...

Michale

I actually wasn't going to comment on the FTPs this morning as I have a ton of work to do..

But I could not let this pass w/o comment.

Let's take stock...

Assad has brutally gassed over 2000 innocent men, women and children to death..

Obama's red line? Assad's punishment?

A toothless UN resolution!

Are you frakin' KIDDING me!!!!

If THAT is Obama's "red line" then his credibility is indeed, utterly and completely shot to hell...

This completely and utterly toothless UN resolution (there are absolutely NO penalties for Syria saying 'Frak off and die") is NOT worthy of a MIDOTW award. It's a sure bet for MWWAMPOTUSIH award...

As far as "talking" to Iran?!?

Are you frakin' KIDDING me!!!???

Bush "talked" with North Korea right up until the DPRK tested it's first nuke..

Does ANYONE here honestly and truly believe that Iran is *SINCERE* about talking about it's nuclear program??

This is one of those questions I would really like an answer to..

Anyone at all...

Michale