Looks like Cruz's historic fauxlibuster was not the bust ya'all hoped it would be.. :D

Michale

IRS Watchdog: $67 Million Missing from Obamacare Slush Fund
The IRS is unable to account for $67 million spent from a slush fund established for Obamacare implementation, according to a TIGTA report released today.
http://atr.org/irs-watchdog-million-missing-obamacare-slush-a7886#ixzz2fzcGDx1h

Oh yea....

obamacare is going to be awesome.... :^/

Michale

There are a lot of scoundrels in politics, few saints.

I could not have said it better myself.. Although I think you'll find ample testimony to show that I have tried on many, many, MANY occasions.. :D

Michale

D.C.’s Obamacare fail: Prices won’t work until November
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/09/25/d-c-s-obamacare-fail-prices-wont-work-until-november/

Even before it begins..

If the Obama Administration can't get things right in their own backyard, what hope do they have for the rest of the country??

For some reason, I am thinking of snowballs, chances and Hell....

Michale

There are a lot of scoundrels in politics, few saints.

ANYONE...

Any takers???

Michale

OK... So we're agreed...

Republicans aren't "terrorists" or "arsonists" or any of the other ridiculous names the Left likes to throw around.

They are simply politicians pursuing their agenda as fervently and as passionately as Democrats pursue THEIR agenda.

Wouldn't you agree???

Michale

Of course it is! That's what politicians (of all parties) do for living. It's the sausage being made. They sell stuff, they make deals. Frankly, I wish Obama were better at it. To be interested in politics is to know disappointment, year after year. Compromise is another name for disappointment.

You have the Administration's projections based on nothing but hope and I have the facts.. We're never going to agree on that.

Let's look at the fallout otherwise..

Employees getting scrooed by cut hours and cut pay..

Businesses going OUT of business..

Doctors leaving their practice because of the paperwork and the hassles...

What's your response to those??

Michale

It's not biased, if it's true...

Here are the facts about rate increases..

Young consumers in many states will be offered rates that are lower than some initial forecasts, but still significantly higher than they may be used to seeing, on health-insurance exchanges run either entirely or in part by the federal government. New federal requirements will require carriers to price insurance equally regardless of consumers' medical history or gender and will offer more generous coverage and more benefits than current plans may offer. Compare insurance premiums for the lowest-cost ‘bronze’ plan for a 27-year-old single person with the current lowest-cost option for a man in a metro area in 36 states where the federal government will oversee exchanges. Some people may be eligible for subsidies towards the cost of coverage.

STATE Obamacare CURRENT
Alabama $170 $80
Alaska $254 $79
Arizona $139 $50
Arkansas $190 $31
Delaware $203 $51
Florida $163 $66
Georgia $166 $43

That's just a sample.. I didn't feel like having to adjust the text for all 50 states..

You could read the facts here:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303983904579095731139251304.html?mod=djemalertNEWS#project%3DEXCHANGES0924%26articleTabs%3Dinteractive

60% of Americans will pay approximately $100 a month.

What of the other 40%???

Aren't they Americans too???

Especially after seeing premiums of $800+ per month before the law if you didn't get insurance through your employer.

Cite???

Michale

Hahahahah. Unbiased. Like that headline: "tests limits of affordability"!

$2,988 a year on average. $250 a month. For people who make more than $94,000 for a family of 4.

60% of Americans will pay approximately $100 a month.

Sounds pretty affordable to me. Especially after seeing premiums of $800+ per month before the law if you didn't get insurance through your employer.

-David

What an impressive display by Cruz...

I probably disagree with him on a lot of things..

But NO ONE can deny his commitment to his beliefs..

Michale

More great things about obamacare...

Michale

I remind you that Senator Obama did not think the "validity of the public debt" was anything to worry about under the Bush Administration..

No matter how ya'all try to paint the shutdown or the debt ceiling as Armageddon, it's all simply partisan politics..

How do I know this??

Because, with regards to the Debt Ceiling and Government Shutdown, Democrats acted in the past JUST like Republicans are acting now.. Threatening this and threatening that, just to push their own agenda..

Ho hum.. Nothing new here...

Michale

That could be a path for Obama to pursue in the end game, should it come to that.
Think of it as the Neutron Bomb Option - 'cause it would demolish the political opposition while leaving the US infrastructure intact.

60% of Americans will find health care affordable..

What about the other 40%??

Oh, they are probably all conservatives and Republicans so who cares about them, eh?? :D

Michale

Obama’s Health-Law Premiums Test Limits of Affordability
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-09-25/obama-pulls-back-curtain-on-health-law-to-reveal-rates.html

So, on the one hand, you have the administration putting out warm and fuzzy, everything is going to be peachy-keen wonderful...

And you have unbiased third parties painting a completely different picture.....

Hmmmmmmm....

Which has more credibility....

Hmmmmmm......

Michale

Whatta guy.... :D

Michale

Your reality doesn't support it..

But the facts do..

Unless you are denying that employees are losing hours and pay, that doctors are leaving their practices, that businesses are shutting down..

All because of obamacare...

What corporations want is to go back to the good old days when they could gouge ... err, charge whatever they wanted because there really wasn't any competition.

You mean like now when there are insurance rate hikes upwards of 300%??

Even the touted "all pre-existing conditions must be insured" is a Democrat red-herring.

Yes, insurance companies must cover pre-existing conditions. But obamacare doesn't prevent or preclude those insurance companies from charging MORE for pre-existing conditions...

The health insurance corporate interest is salivating at not only all the new warm bodies they will have, but also reaping windfall after windfall from those who opt to pay the penalty rather than carry insurance..

The ACA is a health insurance "corporate interest" wet dream.. They win no matter WHAT happens and the middle class pays thru the nose in more ways then one..

How can ANYONE, *EXCEPT* the Corporate Interest, think that this is a GOOD thing???

Michale

That's a prediction by an Administration who has a HUGE stake in making such prediction rosy...

We'll know in about a week if that prediction becomes fact.

Wanna lay any bets?? :D

Michale

Your story makes for a good press but the reality doesn't support it.

What corporations want is to go back to the good old days when they could gouge ... err, charge whatever they wanted because there really wasn't any competition.

-David

I guess that depends on which "corporate interests" you are referring to.

The lawyers don't want tort reform...

Other corporate interests LOVE more and more regulation, as evidenced by who is really going to get rich under obamacare..

You are complaining about monopolies?? How do you reconcile that with the ultimate monopoly that is "single" payer??

I mean, let's face it. Obamacare is ALL about "corporate interests"... But their interests coincide with the Lefty agenda so those "corporate interests" are perfectly acceptable...

Michale

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57604498/premiums-on-obamacare-marketplaces-beat-expectations-report-shows/

First Rand and now Cruz...

Looks like Republicans are acting how I always thought Democrats should act...

That's just gotta hurt.. :D

Michale

Cruz's shoes are seeming pretty comfortable right now, wouldn't ya say?? :D

David,

It's interesting though that you claim Democrats are on the side of corporate interests though.

Why?

Because the evidence of same is all around us. You have acknowledged as much.

The list is long, but let's just stick with ObamaCare..

Is the middle class being helped at all by Obamacare??

No. The middle class are losing hours, losing pay, losing doctors, losing their businesses and losing their freedoms of choice..

Corporate interests are raking in the bucks, in the form of higher rates and bigger and better investments...

The ONLY group that is making out under obamacare is the very corporate interests that you are against..

The group getting scrooed by obamacare is the middle class that you support..

Support for obamacare is support for corporate interests and support for scrooing over the middle class.

It's that simple...

Good ta have you back! :D You have been missed...

Michale

In the same graveyard as Single Payer ... think of the buying leverage we could have gained?

It's interesting though that you claim Democrats are on the side of corporate interests though.

Why?

Because corporate interests want ...
- Tort reform
- Eliminating any type of consumer leverage
- Less regulation
- More consolidation and less competition (basically, monopolies who can dictate price)

All of these are the platform of the Republican party ... no?

-David

Two Words...

Tort Reform...

Where is it??

p.s. Thanks for the kind words. Seriously. Though we argue a lot here, I have tons of friends who would call themselves Republicans or Libertarians. We disagree, but I have no doubt they're good people. I always try to keep this in mind in any discussions. You do a good job at it too, Michale, which is much appreciated!

As you are fond of saying, we can go at it like cats and dogs, but when the chips are down (with beer, of course) all politics goes out the window... :D

MIchale

But it does reduce costs. I think this is what Republicans are really afraid people realize - that the "free market" did a terrible job at healthcare because the incentives were structured horribly.

Of course we could reduce costs more if we went with a single payer plan like Medicare for everyone, but you "no government" types hate that kind of thing, right?

Regardless ... if you're interested in improving the plan, I'm all for it. Let's improve it.

Meanwhile, I'm just glad people are going to have insurance and can stop clogging our emergency rooms.

-David

Obamacare SHOULD have been scrapped and redone with emphasis on reducing costs, rather than expanding those insured..

If we had actually taken steps to reduce the costs, then those who are insured would have expanded naturally, due to the lower costs...

But Nooooooooo....

Obama had to serve his corporate interests and the Democratic Party agenda and to hell with the American people...

The same reason Democrats cherry pick data to further THEIR agenda...

I have found the biggest danger in decision making is to believe your own BS. Republicans have cherry picked polls before, and have paid the price.

As have Democrats..

They're called politicians. It's what they do..

You cite a lot of apocrypha indicating OC doesn't work, but much of it reflects trends going on long before Obama even took office, and some of it is just smart business people shifting costs from themselves to OC subsidies.

Actually, all I have quoted is a direct result OF Obamacare...

The middle class getting scrooed out of hours and pay.

The astronomical rise in insurance rates.

Doctors leaving their practices..

etc etc etc..

All of it, plus so much more is a direct result of Obamacare..

Everybody tends to respect the crusader who flaunts the odds and does what he/she thinks is right, so long long as the cause is noble and innocents are spared.

AND they believe in and support the agenda...

CW is on record as praising Republicans with credit where credit is due..

JL and David have been known to slip a kind word or two about Republicans when it's deserved.

Barring them, I don't know of any Weigantian who can stand and say, "Ya know. Republicans are Americans just like us. They believe in different things but that doesn't make them evil or bad or terrorists..."

While it's true I do hold a special contempt for Democrats (I'll never forgive them for siding with Al Qaeda as a way of attacking Bush) the simple fact is, I hold politicians in general with great disdain...

In THIS particular case, however, Republicans hold the moral high ground when it comes to Obamacare..

The ONLY people that are winning with Obamacare are the corporate interests.

The middle class is getting scrooed...

It's really that simple...

"However, when you have poll after poll after poll consistently saying the exact same thing for a couple years.....

Well, it's a safe bet that the poll DOES reflect reality."

The reality may just be that pollsters are asking the wrong question, and getting the same answer time and again. Polls also repeatedly show the public favors the key elements of OB care when presented as specifics. Polls show the public does not want a government shutdown over the issue. We have an inconsistency here. So why are Republicans cherry picking just one part of the data?

Probably because asking the public whether or not they like OC is acting a bit like a push poll for Republicans. They like the answer they get, because the answer fuels debate in the media, and that debate might, but only just might, derail implementation for a while. Slowing implementation is the last best hope the GOP has of killing the program.

I have found the biggest danger in decision making is to believe your own BS. Republicans have cherry picked polls before, and have paid the price.

You cite a lot of apocrypha indicating OC doesn't work, but much of it reflects trends going on long before Obama even took office, and some of it is just smart business people shifting costs from themselves to OC subsidies.

There is only one place where OC, or something very, very, very like it is actually fully implemented, and that's in MA, where the program, let's call it Romney Care, does what was intended and is reasonably popular. That fact may well be the GOP's greatest greatest fear.

Everybody tends to respect the crusader who flaunts the odds and does what he/she thinks is right, so long long as the cause is noble and innocents are spared. However, I doesn't place money on them, unless I get good odds.

We'll see.

That's what I always say as well... Especially when everyone around here starts touting polls that say how wonderful Obama is. :D

However, when you have poll after poll after poll consistently saying the exact same thing for a couple years.....

Well, it's a safe bet that the poll DOES reflect reality.

And the reality is, the majority of Americans are against Obamacare. Have ALWAYS been against Obamacare...

Given this, I am hard pressed to understand why the Left can claim "the will of the people" when it's obviously a bald-faced lie...

The bill is hard to explain,

It's not "hard to explain" because it's complex. It's "hard to explain" because it simply is unworkable.

It's like trying to explain exactly how I can fly.. It's hard to do because it is simply not possible for me to fly unaided..

Obamacare is hard to explain because it simply doesn't work.

We are seeing the evidence before our very eyes..

Exorbiant rate increases.

Employees losing pay and hours.

Businesses shutting down.

Doctors leaving their practices and retiring.

All of this is a DIRECT result of Obamacare..

As CW points out, OC is not a done deal, but Republican tactics strike me as a "forlorn hope." Sometimes forlorn hopes work, but mostly they don't.

I was watching a Jags vs Texans game once. Literally 14 seconds left in the game, score tied and the clock is ticking. David Gerrard lobs a 70 yard hail mary into the end zone. Texan safety jumps up and knocks the ball down. Right into the arms of Jags Mike Thomas who takes two steps into the end zone and wins the game...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlvOUG8nuZ4

True story...

Call it forlorn hope, call it a hail mary... But sometimes they DO work..

And if the Republicans are really committed to stopping the abomination that is Obamacare, then ANY logical and rational person would simply HAVE to admire their tenacity..

Wouldn't ya'all respect a Democrat who ignored the odds and did what they think is right??

Of course ya'all would..

So, why is it such a BAD thing when Republicans do it??

All polls are subject to interpretation, polls concerning Obama Care more so than most.

My interpretation:

Most Americans are currently against OC...

Most Americans admit they don't understand the provisions of OC...

Most Americans like key provisions of OC when stated in isolation from the bill itself....

Most Americans oppose shutting down the government.....

The Republican Party has done an excellent job on muddying the waters about OC. That said, the job was easy because the bill is complex and lengthy (to put it mildly). Easy to spin, and the Republicans have done a very good job at spinning it. The bill is hard to explain, and the Dems and Obama have not been as effective as their opponents.

Still, OC is law, and the only legislative means the Repubs have to fight it (economic arson)is hugely unpopular..and that includes unpopular with the business wing of the party. The business wing is still pretty influential.

I submit that evidence from 2012 shows Republicans tend to have trouble interpreting polls. But not all Republicans. The savvy ones recognize that OC is structured as a classic "nose under the tent" that will quickly gain ground once it's implemented, and that when it does, Republican support will tend to fold one tenet at a time at the local level. We are already seeing some of that.

As CW points out, OC is not a done deal, but Republican tactics strike me as a "forlorn hope." Sometimes forlorn hopes work, but mostly they don't.

Assumes facts not in evidence... :D

Which is on a whole different level than Yellowstone being closed and soldiers getting IOUs instead of paychecks.

Let's be clear on the shutdown. Yes, parks will close. But soldiers and most other federal employees will still get paid..

seen by most Americans as nothing more than a last-minute temper tantrum by a Tea Party who couldn't convince voters at the ballot box of their position, last year.

That's a common theme amongst the Left that just doesn't pass the smell test..

"The voters spoke last election and voted Democrats and Obama back into power so that means they love Obamacare"

That's crap.. That's like saying a cardinal is red and is a bird so that means that all birds are red.

Or, if you prefer the Month Python explanation:

" There are ways of telling whether she is a witch."
"Are there? Oh well, tell us."
"Tell me. What do you do with witches?"
"Burn them."
"And what do you burn, apart from witches?"
"More witches."
"Wood."
"Now, why do witches burn?"
"...because they're made of... wood?"
"Good. So how do you tell whether she is made of wood?"
"Build a bridge out of her."
"But can you not also build bridges out of stone?"
"Oh yeah."
"Does wood sink in water?"
"No, no, it floats!... It floats! Throw her into the pond!"
"No, no. What else floats in water?"
"Bread."
"Apples."
"Very small rocks."
"Cider."
"Gravy."
"Cherries."
"Mud."
"Churches."
"Lead! Lead!"
"A duck."
"...Exactly. So, logically..."
"If she weighed the same as a duck... she's made of wood."
"And therefore..."
...A witch! A WITCH!!!

Unfortunately, you lose a lot w/o the audio and visuals, but it shows that it's a logical fallacy built upon a false premise...

The American people are speaking right now specifically ON Obamacare.. One doesn't have to "extrapolate" or divine what Americans are thinking based on how they voted in the last election. We KNOW how Americans feel about Obamacare.

The majority of Americans don't like it.. Period..

No amount of spin will change that one simple fact..

I agree with you that the Delay Tactic is a much better way to go than the defund/kill tactic. But you miss one important reason WHY..

Because Obama has already, by fiat, delayed part of Obamacare to serve corporate interests...

All Republicans have to do is say, "Obama delayed Obamacare to help his corporate cronies. Why can't he delay Obamacare to help the middle class??"

And that would be dead on balls accurate...

So yer dead on. Democrats may be tempted to "nyaaa nyaaa nyaaa Obamacare didn't get defunded.... ppppfffffffftttttttttt" this week... Of course, they may not, depending on how it goes down..

But it's undeniable that the coming fights, the odds are that Republicans will be able to extract their revenge and THAT won't be pretty for the Left..

Michale