Speaking of Gun Control...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2430201/British-hero-mall-massacre-Ex-Royal-Marine-handgun-saved-100-lives-terrorists-ran-amok.html?ICO=most_read_module

Another good guy with a gun proves that the only worthwhile "Gun Control" is the control that allows 1 to put 2 in the 10 ring.

Michale

On health-care fraud, US is pennywise, poundfoolish
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101041552

These aren't bastions of conservative talking points.

It's USA TODAY and NB-frakin'-C fer chreest's sake...

How many more pieces of evidence do ya'all have to see before you think, "Hmmmm... Maybe Obamacare is not the end all get all savior of the masses it's being touted as...Hmmmmmm"

Yea, I know, I know.. "Michale, you are pointing to an isolated possibility here and an isolated possibility there"...

Well, guess what?? If you have an isolated possibility here, an isolated possibility there and an isolated possibility over there, pretty soon the "isolated" part becomes ALL over the place and the "possibility" part approaches certainty...

Well, as I said.. We'll know in a couple weeks who is right and who is wrong about Obamacare...

While I am not going to fall into the SCOTUS trap again (can't afford a new t-shirt.. :D) I have a feeling that there WILL be some gloating going on.. :D

Michale

Michale

because without it, nothing is exactly what millions of people have. no health care. don't get sick, and if you do, die quickly. meanwhile, the rest of us are still footing the bill.

And with it, the "something" that people will have, they can't afford and they will STILL lose their houses if they have a medical emergency...

The "something" that Doctors have will force them out of business..

The "something" that Americans have will have employees lose hours and pay..

So, is the "something" *really* better than the nothing??

From where I sit, this "better than doing nothing" is not really accurate..

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/08/congress-exempt-from-obamacare-or-something.html

That's just spin. A left-wing rebuttal to a talking point.

If the special contribution for CongressCritters has always been there (the "employer" contribution for healthcare) why did Obamacare have to specifically create another one???

While not an exemption per se, it's a special privilege not available to everyday Americans.

Why??

CW,

Care to respond?

Absolutely.. :D

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/canary-coal-mine_756591.html

Also, that Warren Buffet thing is hokum as well. Read some quotes from him from the past week, to prove this.

Warren DID make those quotes. Granted, not recently, but he DID say that Obamacare emphasis the wrong aspect.

Buffett said that the first goal should NOT be to get everyone on Health Insurance, but rather to bring the costs down so that more people CAN have health insurance.

Doesn't that make more sense???

Things like tort reform and fraud would be two ways to bring the costs way WAY down..

But Obamacare doesn't do ANY of that. Matter of fact, the Obama Administration is slashing the budget to the bare bone of the fraud unit that would detect and punish fraud..

So, Warran Buffett DID say that he would scrap Obamacare and start over. This is fact.

Warren Buffett DID say that Obamacare needs to change and emphasis the FIRST priority. Which is the skyrocketing costs... This is fact.

Obamacare does the OPPOSITE.

According to the Forbes article posted above, the "average" family will see a HUGE increase in their insurance rates. Note that it's the AVERAGE family, not a family on either end of the spectrum...

Let's face the facts, people.

Obamacare is going to be a big boon for corporate interests.. The insurance companies are going to get a HUGE windfall of new clients, while STILL raising their rates...

But without doing ANYTHING to bring down the costs, those corporate interests are going to be the ONLY ones who will be making out..

The middle class, the ones ya'all claim to be warriors for, will still be getting scrooed...

We'll know in a few weeks just how bad Obamacare is...

Fortunately for ya'all, I am not the one who revels in saying, "I told ya so!!"... Much.... :D

Michale

Just as with the Buffet thing, this is a "pull the wool over people's eyes" attempt by the GOP.

In proper language:

The Obamacare bill was attacked by Republicans. One of these attacks was "let's force Congress to go on the Obamacare exchanges!" This was an amendment by a Republican, and Democrats agreed to it, so it passed.

The problem? Forcing Congress (and all congressional staff) into the exchanges is the proverbial "square peg in a round hole." The square peg? The exchanges were never designed for people who had health insurance provided by their employers. The round hole? Because of the square peg (the ONLY folks in the exchanges with employer benefits will be Congress) they had to create an "exemption" for them -- they would still be allowed to have their employer funding in the exchanges (unlike everyone else purchasing insurance in the exchanges).

But the "exemption" is only necessary because Congress was FORCED into Obamacare exchanges -- by a REPUBLICAN amendment. It was necessary to shoehorn them all INTO "Obamacare." So the so-called "exemption" is necessary to "exempt" them all INTO Obamacare -- the EXACT OPPOSITE of how it is now being portrayed in right-wing media.

Clear?

Michale -

Care to respond?

Also, that Warren Buffet thing is hokum as well. Read some quotes from him from the past week, to prove this.

-CW

i couldn't say for sure if that's what is actually happening, but new york magazine has a retort:

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/08/congress-exempt-from-obamacare-or-something.html

because without it, nothing is exactly what millions of people have. no health care. don't get sick, and if you do, die quickly. meanwhile, the rest of us are still footing the bill.

The ones that have to pay the high end of the average are not worthy of concern???

i'm not saying that the odd cases are meaningless, just that they're nothing new. there were egregious oversights before obamacare. that some still exist is not necessarily an indictment of the legislation, just SSDD.

If Obama Care is so great... Why do CongressCritters and their staff and their families have to get an exemption???

"Anyone??? Anyone?? Buehler????"

So... what??

The ones that have to pay the high end of the average are not worthy of concern???

They are Americans, aren't they??

Why should they get screwed over just because Democrats and Obama need a warm and fuzzy???

It's actually the "beauty" (IE horror) that is ObamaCare...

If the rates ARE lowered (and that's a big IF) then Americans are left with little or no choice (IE Communism)...

If Americans have a choice under Obamacare, then they have to pay exorbiantly high insurance premiums...

With OBamaCAre (now I am just getting creative), it's a LOSE/LOSE for the American people...

Yet Congress and their staffs and families ARE EXEMPT....

And yet, ya'all still support Obamacare as better than nothing...

Why???

agreed, ten years is too long. full implementation is supposed to begin soon, so I think new years 2015 would be about the earliest one could definitively make a factual judgment about obamacare's impact.

Obamacare (ObamaCare??? Still waiting for a ruling.. :D)...

it's for conundrums such as these that it's useful to completely forego the use of capital letters. problem solved.

Considering the extreme rate hikes we are seeing (300%+ in some places)

in any system there are always going to be geographical and statistical anomalies. some areas will pay more, others will save more. that's why they invented averages. the average change thus far, according to the article you cited, is $66. until a legitimate preponderance of facts states otherwise, i remain underwhelmed.

JL

In other words, very high stakes.. For true Triskelion Gamesters.... :D

I am of the opinion that Nicholas Cage movies are either very very good (Con Air, Face Off) or very very BAD (Bad Lieutenant)...

I am happy to report that CROODS and FROZEN GROUND are in the very very good department, for completely and totally different reasons...

I highly recommend both to all...

what do you have in mind? it will be a least a year before the facts on this argument are in, so it would have to be quite a long-term wager.

Of course, we would have to set a reasonable time limit..

I mean, if we were to wait decades, one might be able to point to a good nugget or two...

If the makers of the Edsel had waited long enough, they could have made the design stick...

Personally, I think all the horror of the next 30 days will set the stage for Obamacare (ObamaCare??? Still waiting for a ruling.. :D)...

But, since CW laid down the challenge, I have something more.... er... pivotal in mind.. :D

...and it was getting worse prior to obamacare. that's causation fallacy.

It MAY (emphasis on *may*) have gotten worse w/o Obamacare. That's conjecture...

Unfortunately, we will never know for sure..

Considering the extreme rate hikes we are seeing (300%+ in some places) it's unlikely that it would have gotten NEARLY as bad if there never was Obamacare...

I'll get to the rest in a few.. It's my turn to cook dinner tonight.. :D

Michale

what do you have in mind? it will be a least a year before the facts on this argument are in, so it would have to be quite a long-term wager.

And now it's worse than it was before..

...and it was getting worse prior to obamacare. that's causation fallacy.

Insurance rates are sky rocketing.

they were doing so prior to obamacare. any extra uptick thus far could be attributed to panic on the insurers' part, in anticipation of their future profits taking a potential hit when the regulations kick in. of course they won't actually take a hit, due to all the extra people who will have to be insured or pay higher taxes, but if the insurers can gouge people a little more and blame the guy who fed them all those extra customers, all the better for their profit margins.

Businesses are being forced to close.

or they're choosing to "re-organize" in order to exploit loopholes in the law. businesses with less than 50 full-time employees are exempt, so we're not exactly talking about mom n' pop operations here.

Employees are losing hours and pay.

that part is true. one of the law's biggest flaws is that giant corporations can get away with switching almost exclusively to part-time help and "independent contractor" status for their employees, often breaking labor laws to do so.

These are indisputable facts...

as you like to say, that's just one way of spinning the facts. here's another: if a corporation can't cut into its profit margins enough to cover the health insurance of its employees, it SHOULD close its doors so a better, more efficient business can take its place. that's something we here in the US of A like to call "capitalism."

How is this better than it was before??

those facets of the law you mentioned may or may not ultimately improve once the insurance exchanges get going. but regardless of those particular question marks, there have been some positives. for example:

no lifetime caps, no annual caps, no pre-existing condition exclusions, no dropped coverage for the sick, parental coverage until age 26, mandatory rebates for high overhead, small business tax credits, free preventative care, subsidies for medicare and prescriptions, and getting high risk patients out of the main insurance pools. just to name a few. it's a far cry from universal coverage, but as far as i'm concerned those count as "modest improvements."

It's Official: Obamacare Will Increase Health Spending By $7,450 For A Typical Family of Four

that's not official at all, it's conjecture. the change per family this year, listed in your article, is 66 dollars for the whole year, well below inflation. further, it attributes the anticipated changes specifically to the law, when prices prior to the law were spiraling out of control anyway. i'd be shocked if real average healthcare spending per family changes even a tenth of that claim next year (745 dollars), in either direction.

Lower Health Insurance Premiums to Come at Cost of Fewer Choices

so wait, is it less or more? make up your mind already!

the only way those numbers might jibe would be if the prior average includes people who previously did not have health insurance at all - that group would naturally be spending more, which is why the insurance companies really have nothing to worry about. they really ought to quit complaining; obamacare is their new best friend.

JL

It's Official: Obamacare Will Increase Health Spending By $7,450 For A Typical Family of Four
forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2013/09/23/its-official-obamacare-will-increase-health-spending-by-7450-for-a-typical-family-of-four/

Even if, by some miracle, Obamacare DOES lower rates (which there is absolutely NO evidence to support such a conclusion) there will still be a downside...

Lower Health Insurance Premiums to Come at Cost of Fewer Choices
nytimes.com/2013/09/23/health/lower-health-insurance-premiums-to-come-at-cost-of-fewer-choices.html?_r=0

So, no matter HOW you slice it, Obamacare is going to be worse for Americans, not better.

"These are the facts of the case. And they are undisputed."
-Captain Jack Ross, A FEW GOOD MEN

Who said anything about quatloos??

I want a bet with some REAL bite!! :D

ot because obamacare ends up being particularly good mind you, but because the changes the ACA has made are pretty modest regardless of their ultimate impact.

Again, I have to ask. What makes you say that??

Considering all that has gone bad and wrong with Obamacare to date, how can you claim that the problems are going to be "pretty modest"??

also because the country's health insurance situation before obamacare was so ugly that there's not much further things could fall.

And now it's worse than it was before..

Insurance rates are sky rocketing.

Businesses are being forced to close.

Employees are losing hours and pay.

These are indisputable facts...

How is this better than it was before??

all of which is saying, the bar for "success" has been set REALLY low.

I would agree completely. The bar IS set pretty low.

And, to date, Obamacare has been digging WAY under the bar..

you'll lose your quatloos. not because obamacare ends up being particularly good mind you, but because the changes the ACA has made are pretty modest regardless of their ultimate impact. also because the country's health insurance situation before obamacare was so ugly that there's not much further things could fall. i mean seriously, even michael moore had most of his facts right. he had to go to cuba to make the situation seem any more dramatic than it actually was. all of which is saying, the bar for "success" has been set REALLY low.

JL

Straight from the horse's mouth..

Interesting to note..

According to most Wall Street experts, Obamacare will create unheard of fortunes for investors who tap into the right companies.

Even main street investors will have a chance to reap big paydays - provided they know which sectors stand to benefit most.

Those who support Obamacare are being played by the very corporate and big money interests they claim to be against...

Democratic Official Allan Brauer Wishes Death on Ted Cruz Aide’s Children
http://freebeacon.com/democratic-official-allan-brauer-wishes-death-on-ted-cruz-aides-children/

It would be nice if those on the Left would rush to condemn these kinds of remarks as quickly as they condemn remarks from the Right...

I know that's not a problem with Weigantians.. :D

(Sorry, these points just come to me as I am tearing into laptops...)

I submit we don't even have to wait six months to see how good ObamaCare is going to be..

In 10 days, the main parts of ObamaCare officially kicks in.. The individual mandates and the Health Insurance exchanges...

Let's take stock in 30 days and see how smoothly things are running..

I'll wager a juicy bet that Obamacare will be hell on earth...

Further evidence of this is the fact that the Obama Administration has missed more than HALF the deadlines associated with his "signature" legislation..

forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2013/08/18/unpublished-crs-memo-obama-administration-has-missed-half-of-obamacares-legally-imposed-implementation-deadlines/

Further, Obama has delayed or amended his "signature legislation" almost 20 times!!

Now, you tell me..

Does that sound like a law that has a snowball's chance in hell of being "liked" by the American people in six months??

Lemme take care of some old business from yesterday's commentary..

Not just Karl, but a whole passel of Republicans. It's full-on R-on-R violence. While I largely agree with you that Republicans are better at staying on message and discipline among the ranks, I'm interested in what you think of the GOP civil war going on now? Maybe I should save such questions for Friday's article, though...

I know the standard thought around here is that I am full on pro-GOP.. I submit that it simply seems that way because I dislike and oppose Democrats so intensely..

What do I think of the GOP civil war?? It doesn't surprise me. They are simply politicians after all.

The simple fact that I agree with their position on a lot of issues does not make them any less a politician. And, by definition (at least, *MY* definition), a politician will look out for their own best interests first, the best interests of their Party second and the best interests of their country a very VERY distant third..

The biggest point of contention around here between me and rank-n-file Weigantians is that I maintain that ALL politicians are like that, Dem or GOP...

Let's see in 6 months or a year how Obamacare is polling. When people realize that the GOP cries of Apocalypse were unjustified lies ("what death panels?!?"), when millions are afforded access to insurance at a reasonable price they never had before (people with "pre-existing conditions"), and millions more see the subsidies working for them -- then let's see what the American public thinks. But not before.

We don't KNOW that cries of the Apocalypse are "unjustified lies".. Given what we know so far (employees being screwed over, insurance rates are skyrocketing, etc etc) it would seem to me that those "lies" are quite true and quite justified..

The simple fact that no one here will address these problems lends credence to the idea that these are real and major problems..

Further, acceptance of Obamacare in 6 months time may not be indicative that Americans LIKE it, but rather a grudging acceptance of the reality that they are going to have to live with it regardless. Like herpes...

"Now they have herpes. You keep that shit forever. Kinda like luggage."
-Eddie Murphy, DELIRIOUS

:D

The GOP -- I've said this before, mind you -- is downright terrified not that Obamacare is going to be a trainwreck, but that it will work fine.

Considering what we know already about ObamaCare, the chances of it working "fine" are slim and none.

And Slim just logged off...

But I will be happy to compare the stats in 6 months time...

I notice, also, that you're completely ignoring the breakdown of the standard theme: Republicans fall into line, while Democrats herd cats. Notice any "herding cats" aspects to the GOP/TP commentary this week... hmmm?

Yes, it's true. In the here and now, Republicans are acting more like Democrats...

While that DOES say something about Republicans, it ALSO says something about Democrats..

And, I submit, what it says ain't good... For EITHER Party..

Wouldn't you agree?? :D

Ah, but I could have easily forgotten a faction or two... didn't want to offer up a solid number on that account...

:-)

Michale -

I said this on another thread, but it bears repeating:

Let's see in 6 months or a year how Obamacare is polling. When people realize that the GOP cries of Apocalypse were unjustified lies ("what death panels?!?"), when millions are afforded access to insurance at a reasonable price they never had before (people with "pre-existing conditions"), and millions more see the subsidies working for them -- then let's see what the American public thinks. But not before.

The GOP -- I've said this before, mind you -- is downright terrified not that Obamacare is going to be a trainwreck, but that it will work fine. If they weren't, they wouldn't have put so much energy into killing it. As I said, let's meet back here in six months and compare statistics, shall we?

I notice, also, that you're completely ignoring the breakdown of the standard theme: Republicans fall into line, while Democrats herd cats. Notice any "herding cats" aspects to the GOP/TP commentary this week... hmmm?

:-)

-CW

It's Obama and the Democrats who have made the decision that the abomination known as Obamacare is more important to them than a running functional government.

Why blame the GOP for tee'ing up the choice?? Shouldn't the ones who MAKE the bonehead choice be blamed??

Will the TPGOP plan fail? Maybe.. Maybe even probably.. But you simply must acknowledge that they are being true to their principles.

Put another way. If it were a faction of Democrats that were acting like the Tea Party and were fighting for an issue that ya'all agreed with then the MIDOTW Awards would be flying fast and furious.. If it was Democrats that were threatening a shutdown of government for an issue that they believed in, ya'all would be supporting them to the hilt...

Am I wrong?? Of course I'm not.. :D

So, let's kind of keep some perspective here...

It's hard to even count the corners in this boxing ring, really. We've got the House Tea Partiers versus the Senate Tea Partiers versus the House leadership versus sane Senate Republicans versus the apoplectic rightwing media versus the sane rightwing media.

I count six.

"That wasn't such a chore, now was it??"
-Bill Murray, GHOSTBUSTERS

:D

I count six.

JL