Whadaya mean? Then what is the point of the discussion?

By saying you "could level" the charge at Democrats as well you are rendering any and all argument pointless. Yes, I can say "Nuns eat kittens" and say "Lutherans eat kittens" and say "republicans eat kittens" equally well, but at that point I'm just typing words into a space, with no meaning at all.

I am charging that Republicans are explicitly, deliberately and knowingly enacting laws for the purpose of suppressing the votes of people they know will not vote republican and my opinion is that it is vile. At this point you can agree, or disagree, or say you don't know. You can argue about 2 things: one, ARE THEY deliberately suppressing the Vote? AND two, is it vile?

Because they are doing it as we write. This isn't a theoretical discussion about what various politicians might do or what some Democrat might have done at some point in history. This is now and it is happening. And if you were able to present an example of a Democratic-controlled state legislature in this country right now that is ramming through this type of legislation I would stand by my position that it is vile. But there aren't any.

As to your second point: Democrats exclude and victimize anyone who doesn't hold to their beliefs. that's not even an argument, it is a cop out. No doubt Dems have passed legislation you don't like, but that is not the same as "victimizing" or "excluding" or practicing "injustice". You have to be specific about what they're doing and why it is wrong in your opinion. Otherwise it's just a general, random "your mother!" and fails as an argument.

Not at all.. I am simply saying that the charge you level at Republicans can ALSO be leveled at Democrats.

I am not commenting on the validity of the charge whatsoever.

Neither side succeeds all the time or without a lot of effort; neither side is perfect, unflawed, utterly moral. But if and when we have to choose sides, which, in elections, we typically do, I will pick inclusion and social justice over exclusion and injustice.

And yet, Democrats practice exclusion and injustice on a daily basis...

Democrats exclude and victimize anyone who doesn't hold to their beliefs..

In that, they are no different than Republicans...

2 things:

first, with respect to repubs specifically, knowingly using their power to suppress voting -- your response seems to boil down to "well Dems would do it too if it would work for them" -- roughly the "both sides do it" response. Which is really an evasion of the issue. You don't want to face up to the fact that the repubs are doing something particularly dirty and you are using a variety of rationalizations to avoid looking straight at it. Saying that it isn't that onerous to get an id is also an evasion or excuse.

Second: But what I don't understand is why you put your faith in Democrats to make such situations better.."

The short answer is "I don't". I have very little faith in any political leaders, Dems included. I think the Democratic party went off the rails, in particular when Bill Clinton and the "Third Way" chumps decided to buddy up to business at the expense of labor and when he ended Glass Steagall and the Fairness Doctrine. The Dems were useless during the Iraq War fiasco; they sat back while GW stacked courts with reactionary Federalist Society nutbags; they bought into a lot of bullshit like the Bankruptcy Bill, etc. The list would take pages.

The problem is, when it comes to having to elect people, the repubs are significantly worse. Dems may buy into economic nonsense; they are too enmeshed in the beltway bubble and way too beholden to large corporations and lobbyists -- all bad. But they are, to a degree, reachable while the repubs are almost completely closed. Dems often fail by acts of omission, but the Pubs fail by acts of extreme commission. Dems can be clueless but Pubs are cruel. Clueless can be educated; cruel is a character flaw.

And, at this point in time, the Dems, in various ways, with various motivations, at least want to try to solve problems, whereas the Pubs are making no attempts whatsoever to actually grapple with current reality.

Real change doesn't come from politicians, it comes as a result of effective activism. Activists ultimately influence the Press, the Public, and then, Politicians. Activists on the left work for social and economic justices. Activists on the right work to increase limitations, divisions and injustice. The left is about inclusion, the right is about exclusion.

Neither side succeeds all the time or without a lot of effort; neither side is perfect, unflawed, utterly moral. But if and when we have to choose sides, which, in elections, we typically do, I will pick inclusion and social justice over exclusion and injustice.

"Democrat voter suppression"... While that is despicable, it's not the same thing as minority voter suppression..

I can point to hundreds of links that show Democrats attempts at Republican voter suppression..

Further, that's the opinion of one person. It's not necessarily indicative of the Right as a whole. Again, I can find numerous quotes of similar nature from Democrats and the Left...

This is relevant because these ID laws are aimed straight at people who will have to go through a bunch of crap to comply and the crap they go through is invisible to people who haven't been there. People who are comfortable, people who have some level of financial security -- particularly if they've been fortunate enough to always have had it --have no idea at all what it is like to struggle for money and what roadblocks that continually throws in your path.

I feel for the lack of money issues. I too have been there. When my wife and I were first starting out we were broke too and had to make many of the same decisions you had to make.

Such is life. It's never "fair".. It just is...

But the simple fact is, only American citizens can vote. Unless one lives on a high mountain in the wilderness completely cut off from ALL civilization for their entire life they are going to need a photo ID at some point in their lives..

Finally, if having a photo ID to vote would HELP, not hinder, Democrat voting you can bet that Democrats would be pushing photo ID to the high heavens..

Such is is with politics and political Partys. Dems and GOP exist to screw over the other Party at the expense of the American people.

We learned to pay as we went. We paid off all credit cards and don't have one now. No frills at all. No cable TV. No cell phones. We certainly learned about discipline. But also about stress, fear, worry and bitterness. Especially at that bank. And at our politicians who never ever have a sense of urgency about fixing things for "the little people", at least not until massive suffering has been endured. Because they have no idea what it's like.

One of the nice things about having crappy credit (like we do) is that we never get approved for credit cards. :D

Again, I feel for that situation. Been there ourselves.

But what I don't understand is why you put your faith in Democrats to make such situations better..

Their track record clearly shows that they make things worse, not better..

Sorry about that. Comments with more than one link get automatically held for moderation. You can get around this by posting lots of comments, with one link each, rather than putting them into one comment as you tried to do.

Again, sorry for the delay.

-CW

We got money when clients paid us. For awhile we kicked ourselves, thinking we weren't updating our checkbook properly, or were missing debits somewhere. So we started calling our bank or asking the manager at our local branch: we have just deposited $130 -- when can we write a check? "Oh it will be fine on Monday." Great. Wait til Monday, go to store to get groceries. Write check for $95. Wednesday, get notice from bank that we were overdrawn. What???? They posted the $95 before the $130 deposit. They did this several times. They admitted doing it on the phone. Told me that was just the way it was, they did it because they could.

We wised up and left that bank for a small local outfit that has been wonderful.

Stress? Stress is when you have been living on Top Ramen for 4 days and you deposit money and see it eaten up by deliberately engineered overdrafts. While the gas company has sent you a notice that if you don't pay the bill in 2 weeks they'll shut you off.

We learned to pay as we went. We paid off all credit cards and don't have one now. No frills at all. No cable TV. No cell phones. We certainly learned about discipline. But also about stress, fear, worry and bitterness. Especially at that bank. And at our politicians who never ever have a sense of urgency about fixing things for "the little people", at least not until massive suffering has been endured. Because they have no idea what it's like.

From: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/08/28/republicans-admit-voter-id-laws-are-aimed-at-democratic-voters.html

"After the election, former Florida GOP chairman Jim Greer told The Palm Beach Post that the explicit goal of the state’s voter-ID law was Democratic suppression. “The Republican Party, the strategists, the consultants, they firmly believe that early voting is bad for Republican Party candidates,” Greer told the Post. “It’s done for one reason and one reason only ... ‘We’ve got to cut down on early voting because early voting is not good for us,’”

AND:

" In 2011 an Associated Press analysis found that South Carolina’s proposed voter-identification law would hit black precincts the hardest, keeping thousands from casting nonprovisional ballots. Likewise, if Alabama’s voter-ID law goes into effect, it will place its largest burden on black voters who lack acceptable forms of identification and don’t have immediate access to alternatives. And while most of these laws—which, it’s worth noting, have been passed in most of the states of the former Confederacy—provide for free identification, it’s not an easy reach. To get one in Mississippi, for instance, residents need a birth certificate, which costs $15 and requires the photo identification they don’t have. They’ll also need time to travel to the state office to pay or a computer to do the transaction online."

OR
http://www.newsworks.org/index.php/national-interest/item/59074-phyllis-schlafly-talks-truth-about-vote-suppression

Repubs want to suppress Democratic turnout, period. They can't win on merits so they fix the system whenever they can.

Separately, there was an article today about a new study published in the journal Science about the effects of poverty on cognitive functioning and some great discussion in comments. http://www.theatlanticcities.com/jobs-and-economy/2013/08/how-poverty-taxes-brain/6716/

There's some good discussion in the comments about the kinds of difficulties people who just plain don't have enough money continually face and the toll it takes. I can attest to this personally, having lived for some years having to juggle not enough money -- I'm talking NOT ENOUGH MONEY. Not a matter of wanting to blow it on trivia, I mean having to constantly be behind on utilities, driving old cars until they died, not having health insurance, not having enough for food at times, all new clothes from GoodWill, etc. Combination of illness and self-employment, which, thank heaven, has passed. I'm in a much better place now but I can tell you that not-having-enough is miserable in a multitude of ways.

This study nails it as over and over I was confronted with having to select among a series of bad choices: keep the electricity on means can't pay the car insurance on time means will pay penalty means can't get food for 2 more days means try not to get too depresssed and on and on. Money comes, pay the car insurance, buy some food. Can't get a birthday present for someone, at least not til next check arrives. Oops, car battery died. Money comes. Can buy battery and pay gas bill, with late fee. Phone is behind but caught up on water bill and avoided a shut-off. And on and on.

This is relevant because these ID laws are aimed straight at people who will have to go through a bunch of crap to comply and the crap they go through is invisible to people who haven't been there. People who are comfortable, people who have some level of financial security -- particularly if they've been fortunate enough to always have had it --have no idea at all what it is like to struggle for money and what roadblocks that continually throws in your path.

:D Woot!!

The big deal is that you have state legislations passing these laws sometimes right before elections,

I see no evidence of this.

They are intended to make it difficult for people.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

It's been proven over and over that actual voter fraud amounts to something like 5 instances per election

It's also been proven that voter restrictions have no effect on minority voter turnout.

So, if following the law has no effect on minority voter turnout, why not make it so that everyone is forced to follow the law??

Maybe getting such an id will turn out to be easy.

Getting an ID *is* easy.. In most states, it's also free or very low cost..

Someone who is too lazy to get an ID, isn't really much concerned about voting...

But it won't erase the fact the the motivations for these laws are to suppress votes.

That's an opinion unsupported by facts..

On principle it sounds simple: you want to vote, you get an id. What's the big deal?

The big deal is that you have state legislations passing these laws sometimes right before elections, without doing squat to ensure the laws can be carried out on time; that poll workers will be adequately trained; that government offices can provide the id's without people having to go through hassles, delays, etc.

They are intended to make it difficult for people. They are typically coupled with reductions in voting days, or mail in voting, etc. specifically to reduce turnout among people who already juggle difficulties every day.

It's been proven over and over that actual voter fraud amounts to something like 5 instances per election - half of which turn out to be accidents. These are laws that are passed to solve a problem that doesn't exist, but purely to create new problems for people who aren't republican.

Maybe getting such an id will turn out to be easy. Maybe republican led states will devote time, money and effort to making their election systems effective, efficient and fair, Maybe the sheer contemptibility of these efforts will inspire massive democratic voter turnout for years to come, despite hassles! That would be a nice unintended consequence. But it won't erase the fact the the motivations for these laws are to suppress votes.

How did I do?? :D

Hell, I even make it easier for you.

Don't worry about finding a real life American as outlined.

Postulate to me a realistic, logical and rational scenario whereas an American citizen would NEVER need an ID in this country, but would still have the desire to vote..

Paula,

Michale: States that have the most restrictive voting laws also have large turnout is not good argument for restrictive voting laws.

Sure it is.. Because it's the same argument, except in reverse, that the Left makes AGAINST Voter ID....

You say there is no evidence of voter fraud (even though there is tons) so there is no need to have Voter ID...

I say that there is no evidence of minority disenfranchising, so there is no reason NOT to have Voter ID...

It's your OWN argument...

How can you claim it to be false??

It tells Americans that republican leaders will do ANYTHING to "win" -- cheating is happily embraced.

And, of course, DEMOCRATS would NEVER stoop to cheating, right??

Com'on.. I may have been born at night, but it wasn't LAST night.. :D

Like the Democrat poll worker who *proudly* voted for Obama EIGHT DIFFERENT TIMES in the last election???

The ONLY reason to be against Voter ID is to make it easier to commit Voter Fraud..

That is the ONLY reason... No other possible reason exists...

Nearly 80% of Americans support Voter ID...

You almost have to have an ID to take a dump in this country..

There is simply NO EXCUSE not to have an ID.

The law states that only American citizens can vote.. So, if you want to vote, you have to prove you are an American citizen... It's a no-brainer...

Like I am fond of saying.. If one looks past all the hysterical emotionalism, the facts are clear.

You want to vote? You are an American Citizen??

PROVE IT...

If one doesn't want to follow the law, then I guess voting is not all that important to them, now is it??

I absolutely agree that the way history is taught is a problem. I was a good student, I love to read and love history, but all I remember from school classes (including college) was that there were lots of battles and lots of "ACTS" and treaties. etc., all of which I forgot after cramming for tests. As your quote said, "just one damn thing after another", sans most context or interesting detail.

Michale: States that have the most restrictive voting laws also have large turnout is not good argument for restrictive voting laws. The turnout has certainly been high in response to the republican's really utterly despicable efforts to disenfranchise voters, but it is unhealthy for the country. For one thing, it makes people like me continue to really abhor republicans, and that's not good for peace or spiritual growth(!)

Also it elevates to the level of Public Policy that it is a good a idea to make it difficult for working people (who typically have little or no scheduling flexibility), older people, students or the poor in general, to vote. By supporting such things you are supporting a class-based attack on the public; salaried people can vote; hourly people can't. Screw people who can't get baby sitters; who don't have cars; who's bosses won't give them time off to get where they need to go, or who dock their pay -- who needs to worry about paying bills anyway? Not republican governors--that's for sure.

It tells Americans that republican leaders will do ANYTHING to "win" -- cheating is happily embraced. Gaming the system is A.O.K. Actual competition? Why do that when, instead of convincing enough voters that your policies benefit them, you can just shove those policies down their throats?

Everything about it is UGLY.

If a person in US society simply cannot function without an ID and it's required for EVERY aspect of a US life, then why are so many people in so many states living completely functional lives without ever needing an ID?

Allow me to also welcome you to Weigantia in my own special way..

"Welcome to the party, pal!!!"
-John McClane, DIE HARD

:D

Now, as to your question..

Could you provide me a real life verifiable example of an American citizen who A> has gone their entire life w/o needing an ID and 2> has an inclination to vote...

NO ONE can be disenfranchised from voting w/o their tacit approval..

EXCEPT....

Except those who are disenfranchised by proxy.. IE someone voting illegally that cancels out a legal vote...

CW,

What would MLK say about -- other than ID requirements -- all the new laws which make it harder to vote and have absolutely no "fraud" reason for being passed, but which will affect minorities disproportionally?

So, what you are saying is that, because no fraud is apparent, we don't need these restrictive voting laws..

Does that sum up your argument??

Here's the thing..

States that have some of the most restrictive voting laws in the country ALSO have some of the largest turnout of minority voting ever recorded..

So, using your OWN argument, since there is no evidence that restrictive laws dampen minority voter turnout, there is absolutely NO REASON ***NOT*** to have these voting laws...

Your own argument makes my case....

OK, let's just set aside Voter ID for a moment, shall we?

What do you think MLK would say about states restricting early voting? North Carolina reported that in their previous election, roughly half of white people voted early, while 70 percent of blacks voted early.

What would MLK say about ending early voting on Sundays, due to traditionally black churches getting many people out to vote?

What would MLK say about -- other than ID requirements -- all the new laws which make it harder to vote and have absolutely no "fraud" reason for being passed, but which will affect minorities disproportionally?

I know exactly what he'd say about them. Do you?

-CW

Welcome to the site!

Your first comment was held for moderation automatically, but from now on you will be able to post your comments here instantly. Just don't post more than one link per comment, as if you do it will also be automatically held for moderation (this cuts down on "comment spam"). Posting a single link per commment should work fine, so if you have a bunch of links, post a bunch of comments.

Anyway, just wanted to say hello and welcome to the site...

-CW

I submit that, as far as Voter ID goes, the Voter ID issue IS justice...

For every person who votes illegally, they are disenfranchising a person who votes LEGALLY...

So it seems to me that MLK would come down on the side of Voter ID.

A person in today's American society simply cannot function without an ID. It's required for EVERY aspect of an American's life..

The fight against Voter ID is simply a fight to make it easier for people to cheat..