I gotta sit down or something...

Yea, cataclysmic iddn't it?? :D

Just shows ta go ya.. There really isn't any difference between Dem and GOP..

Something I believe I have mentioned here once or twice... :D

OK, much as it pains me... kudos to you for providing the same example I just did. We may not agree on the opinion parts, but I salute your admitting the facts, I have to say.

Oh I have no problem with facts.. Especially when they support my point. :D

OK, that last one also made me laugh. I'm interested in your thoughts on Ellsberg as well...

To be honest, beyond the facts of the Ellsberg case, I don't have any recollection of it affecting me much, being a kid at the time...

I would say, strictly from an intellectual Pro-Military perspective, Ellsberg and Manning are cut from the same cloth.

A twisted and ego-driven notion that they alone know the best course of action for this country. That they alone know all there is to know and, therefore, have no reason to obey the rules and follow orders.

"We follow orders. We follow orders or people die. It's THAT simple. Are we clear!??"
-Colonel Nathan R. Jessup, Commanding Officer, Ground Forces, Guantanamo Bay, Cuba
A FEW GOOD MEN

Um, a video of a helicopter gunship mowing down a legitimate journalist?

First off ... Um ...??

You know what, I'm just going to let that slide because I'm not the least bit hypersensitive. I'M NOT, I tell you! Ahem.

Isn't that what is called a friendly fire incident during war? American pilots dropped bombs on
Canadian troops in Afghanistan. I'll bet they high fived and laughed it up when it happened, too ... before they realized what they had done. Do you think that should be seen as a war crime?

The Wikileaks document drop spurred the Arab Spring (Tunesia). That's pretty significant, no matter what you think of the outcome, don't you think?

As for starting the Arab "spring" ... sorry, but I don't buy that. I do have an open mind, though, and it is certainly possible that I might be persuaded by sound arguments that would support that assertion. In fact, I would like to hear them.

Do you think that spurring what occurred in Tunisia is justification - in any way, shape or form - for what Bradley Manning did?

OK, I'm interested -- was Daniel Ellsberg a whistle blower, by your metric? Do you approve of what he did?

Despite what Daniel Ellsberg has said recently, I don't believe there is any reasonable equivalence between what he did and what Manning/Snowden did.

Ellsberg was a classic whistleblower who leaked to the New York Times some very specific documents detailing specific wrongdoing and lies by the US government and who did not run away from his actions which were made with great conviction.

These days, as demonstrated by Manning and Snowden, any Tom, Dick or Harry who leaks government documents, massively indiscriminately and/or without exposing any wrongdoing or abuse is labeled as a "whistleblower".

How would you compare what Ellsberg did with what Manning/Snowden have done?

The term whistleblower has, in my view, lost all meaning since the days of the Pentagon Papers.

Wait a minute... did I just miss it?... did you just praise Nancy Pelosi?

I gotta sit down or something...

Heh

LizM [2] -

Um, a video of a helicopter gunship mowing down a legitimate journalist?

The Wikileaks document drop spurred the Arab Spring (Tunesia). That's pretty significant, no matter what you think of the outcome, don't you think?

Michale [4] -

OK, much as it pains me... kudos to you for providing the same example I just did. We may not agree on the opinion parts, but I salute your admitting the facts, I have to say.

LizM [6] -

OK, I'm interested -- was Daniel Ellsberg a whistle blower, by your metric? Do you approve of what he did?

I'm not saying Manning's doc drop was as important as the Pentagon Papers, but I am interested to hear your opinion.

Americulchie -

OK, I admit I hadn't heard that "your ass is grass and the US is the lawnmower" line before, and it made me laugh!

Yes, when you join the military you sign away a lot of your rights as a human being. That's part of the gig, and always has been.

But, since Neuremberg, individual soldiers have a higher purpose as well. I am interested, again, in what you would think of the Pentagon Papers and Ellsberg?

Michale -

OK, that last one also made me laugh. I'm interested in your thoughts on Ellsberg as well...

-CW

Being somewhat of an expert on the military, I would look at it more that the UCMJ is an instrument designed to maintain order and discipline..

But, you say toe-MAY-toe, I say poe-TAY-toe.... :D

What planet are you on??

He was found NOT GUILTY of aiding the enemy, but was found guilty of a slew of lesser charges...

None of which would result in a firing squad..

Unfortunately.....

Except that this comes a week after a guy hunted down and shot a kid for shits and giggles and was allowed to walk completely free in doing so - so who knows how shitty the 'laws' applied here were.

And ANOTHER display of utter ignorance of the facts.

Wish I could say I was surprised.. :D

Liz,

I cannot understand how people can begin to see Manning as a "whistleblower", especially given his unprecedented and indiscriminate theft of private and confidential State Department and Defense documents.

I completely agree.. Both Manning and Snowden exposed intel that hurt the US and helped our enemies.

Manning has SOME small (VERY small) semblance of credibility because he at least went to an organization that specializes in leaks...

Snowden sought asylum in Russia, Cuba, Venezuela....

Not bastions of freedom and human rights by ANY stretch of the definition...

If I were the suspicious/paranoid type, I would think that Snowden is some elaborate false-flap op running out of Langley...

Good think I ain't the suspicious/paranoid type, eh? :D

I think that initially Manning exposed a Friendly Fire incident where a reporter was killed by a US Gunship..

That's what I thought. There have been many friendly fire incidents, not least of which from my perspective, occurred shortly after the campaign in Afghanistan began when a US fighter aircraft dropped ordinance on Canadian soldiers.

I cannot understand how people can begin to see Manning as a "whistleblower", especially given his unprecedented and indiscriminate theft of private and confidential State Department and Defense documents.

Except that this comes a week after a guy hunted down and shot a kid for shits and giggles and was allowed to walk completely free in doing so - so who knows how shitty the 'laws' applied here were.

On that last subject, boy did Matt Bors nail it today: http://www.mattbors.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/1015.png

Sorry about that.. I totally misread your comment.

My sincerest apologies.

In response to your REAL question..... :^/

I think that initially Manning exposed a Friendly Fire incident where a reporter was killed by a US Gunship..

After seeing how much "fun" that was, Manning decided to go for the whole shebang..

Oh, where to begin.

Manning gave away sources, assets and procedures that MUST remain secret for them to be effective.

A completely open society that has absolutely no secrets whatsoever is a society that will last barely a day...

Michale

EVERYONE agrees on this, even if the Left half of our leadership won't admit it..

You mentioned the close vote that almost killed these programs..

Do you know who actually SAVED these very necessary programs??

Nancy Pelosi....

If Manning and Snowden had released their information under a GOP Administration, you just HAVE to know that the outcry from the Left would be deafening....

Ya'all just HAVE to know that President Bush has a Cheshire grin that simply doesn't quit...

His policies are utterly and completely VINDICATED and all those on the Left who fought Bush over these programs are recognized for the treasonous cowards that they are...

Michale