Grrrrrr

But that's just it.. Democrats aren't doing what's best for the country.

Michale

If you can show me one besides Dennis Kuchnic, then..... :D

But I'd rather have a party with more people who apply the 'is this good for society as a whole' test on things like healthcare, immigration, prison, taxation etc

But that's just it.. Democrats are doing what's best for the country.

Democrats are doing what they think is best for Democrats..

The country (and the people) be damned..

Michale

We come to find out that it was simply a politically convenient objection... Not a true moral stance..

Some, not all. A lot of 'liberals' who aren't really liberal and give the name-tag a bad name are (and continue to be) in this boat.

But give me a bona-fide and damn-proud-of-it asshole over a hypocritical have-to-stick-their-ass-in-the-air-to-find-which-way-the-political-winds-are-blowing asshole any day of the week...

The idea that all Republicans are ideologically pure and Democrats just going with the crowd is nonsense and you know it. Both sides have their politicians doing what politicians do.

But I'd rather have a party with more people who apply the 'is this good for society as a whole' test on things like healthcare, immigration, prison, taxation etc than a party with more people who apply the 'is this good for my donators' test on these things. And I'm not saying Democrats don't fall into the latter, I'm saying far more Republicans do. In fact almost their entire ideological beliefs are built around this principle, with a dash of crazy bible hypocrisy thrown in...

On the surface, that's a laudable and logical process..

Yet, WHO decides the benefit to society?? :D

This statement is fiscally Conservative. Where we probably differ massively in views is what our ideas of 'benefits to society' are.

I guess I should finish reading your comments BEFORE I respond.. :D

For example you probably believe that the military provides a massive benefit to society and the US should continue to shove butt-loads of money into it.

You had me at 'butt-loads'... :D

Sorry, inside/family joke :D

Particularly hoaring themselves out to Corporations (like most politicians in America),

And whoring too!! :D Again, apologies. Spelling lame :D

drone strikes, continuation of military spending, continuing to torture people etc.

And, at the time that Democrats were against all that, they made it sound like it was a huge moral/ethical objection..

We come to find out that it was simply a politically convenient objection... Not a true moral stance..

But pretty much everything Republicans do or propose doesn't pass this test - especially the bat-shit crazy (often previously failed) ideas that make up the current modern Republican party...

You won't catch me disagreeing with you... Well, much anyways..

But give me a bona-fide and damn-proud-of-it asshole over a hypocritical have-to-stick-their-ass-in-the-air-to-find-which-way-the-political-winds-are-blowing asshole any day of the week...

Michale

I believe a program shouldn't be allowed to exist if the costs of the program outweigh the benefits to society.

This statement is fiscally Conservative. Where we probably differ massively in views is what our ideas of 'benefits to society' are. For example you probably believe that the military provides a massive benefit to society and the US should continue to shove butt-loads of money into it. I don't.

There are plenty of things Democrats do that I don't think pass this test. Particularly hoaring themselves out to Corporations (like most politicians in America), drone strikes, continuation of military spending, continuing to torture people etc. But pretty much everything Republicans do or propose doesn't pass this test - especially the bat-shit crazy (often previously failed) ideas that make up the current modern Republican party...

I'll repeat..

"And yet, you support Democrats".... :D

Michale

But I'm a fiscal Conserative in the default, accounting, rational, logical sense - that is I believe in balancing the budget through revenue and cuts; not a 'fiscal Conservative' in the modern Republican party sense - give massive tax cuts to the wealthy, spend lots of money on the military, pursue insignificant cuts elsewhere and believe that with a wave of your magic wand the budget will be balanced (becuz 'job creators' or some other retarded logic)

And yet, you support Democrats..

One statement kinda belays the other.. :D

Michale

But hey I'm just someone who doesn't like Government waste. Like a ridiculous over-the-top e-verify system. But Republicans clearly love Government waste and over-the-top regulation (as long as it is them doing it).

When a chamber does what you like they are "acting like adults"...

When a chamber does what you don't like they are "maniacal lunatic morons"...

Just wanted to make sure we're clear on that. :D

spending their time in 2013 trying to ban abortion/Obamacare.

Considering all the evidence that is piling up as to how bad Obamacare is going to be, I think efforts to repeal it are efforts well spent..

As to the majority of Americans...

Michale

And back we are again to the situation where you have one Chamber acting like adults and getting things done with the other full of maniacal lunatic morons spending their time in 2013 trying to ban abortion/Obamacare.

My apologies.. I didn't answer your question..

This is the same CBO that said ObamaCare wouldn't add to the deficit, right?? The same CBO that said it wouldn't raise insurance premiums, right?

This being the case, I don't know if it's a good idea to use CBO predictions. They have a worse track record than the Human Caused Global Warming (Yet The Planet Is Cooling) predictions...

And THAT says something.. :D

So, yes.. I would agree with you that the CBO is independent..

They just ain't always right... :D

Michale

At one point when we were discussing similar legislation, you had stated that those imported under legislation would not be eligible to vote.. At the time, I withdrew my objection to the legislation.

Now we know that it just isn't so..

The current legislation will be an electoral bonanza for Democrats...

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/04/immigration-reform-could-upend-electoral-college-90478.html?hp=t1

So, does anyone want to try and convince me that there is no blatant Party self-interest in this legislation??

I'll be standing by....

This legislation is NOT good for the country. It is NOT good for border security...

This legislation is ONLY good for the Democratic Party.

Michale

In a previous commentary, you asked about the context of Boxer's quotes opposing the exact kind of immigration program she supports now..

http://www.boxer.senate.gov/en/press/releases/060707.cfm

As Data would say at the poker table in Geordi's quarters.

"Read them and cry"

Since you love facts so much, how about that CBO report? Savings of $200 billion in first decade, $700 billion in second, to federal budget. Short-term disruptions in labor market, limited to a few years, after which improving conditions from there on out. Short pain, long-term gain. What's not to like? The CBO is non-partisan, so as a professed independent, you should respect their figures, right?

The CBO also said that unemployment would rise and wages for low end jobs would sink..

One group of Americans are seeing their unemployment at 25%!!! in the here and now..

Along comes 10, 20, 30 million new workers vying for the SAME jobs...

What do you think is going to happen to that 25% Unemployment rate?? It's likely going to double..

These are AMERICANS that are going to suffer and suffer hard...

Democrats claim to speak for them..

Apparently, Democrats only speak for them if it's in their political best interests to do so...

You're from Florida, so I assume you have an opinion. I notice that in no part of the negotiations (that I'm aware of) has this issue even been raised. So what do you think of "wet feet/dry feet"?

Cuba is a special case... A debt is owed to Cubans. Having said that, I will admit that said debt should have a finite lifespan and that an expiration date SHOULD be applied..

Also, I have to say that while I found it offensive, I also had to laugh at your phrase "undocumented Democrats," just because it was indeed funny. So, while in total disagreement in general, credit where it's due.

Credit should go to Jay Leno.. He has come up with quite a few zingers in the last few weeks..

The time of POTUS ass kissing is over.. At least, with Leno...

So what do you think of, instead of freakin' DOUBLING the size of the Border Patrol (already our biggest federal police force), putting the same money to good use to hiring agents at ICE, and cutting down the backlog to 2 years instead of 20? Still haven't heard that proposed by anyone in Washington -- the backlog is there because politicians refuse to spend the money on the problem that it so obviously deserves.

I completely agree. As I have said MANY times, resources should be applied in creating and maintaining a program that helps our immigration problems from all over the world..

However, the thrust of this current abomination is to get as many illegals into this country from Mexico as quickly as possible so as to give Democrats an edge in the 2014/2016 elections..

That is the ONLY reason that Democrats and Obama are pushing this legislation..

The **ONLY** reason...

You can bet that, if illegals swung GOP, the political roles would be reversed.. Dems would be fighting this tooth and nail and the GOP would be pushing this with everything they had..

This simply can't be denied..

Self-interest is fueling this.. Not altruism..

And that is simply pathetic...

Michale

We urge all lawmakers to oppose the final cloture vote on Thursday and to oppose the bill."
-Immigration and Border Patrol Agents

That's all I need to know...

Michale