Can you provide context for that Boxer quote? What year, for instance, is it from? What bill was under discussion at the time?

Since you love facts so much, how about that CBO report? Savings of $200 billion in first decade, $700 billion in second, to federal budget. Short-term disruptions in labor market, limited to a few years, after which improving conditions from there on out. Short pain, long-term gain. What's not to like? The CBO is non-partisan, so as a professed independent, you should respect their figures, right?

To throw a curve ball in here, what do you think of the difference between all immigrants and Cubans? You're from Florida, so I assume you have an opinion. I notice that in no part of the negotiations (that I'm aware of) has this issue even been raised. So what do you think of "wet feet/dry feet"? I'm not asking this as any sort of trap or zinger, just curious as to how you see this living where you do. I was actually surprised that the issue didn't even come up for discussion in the whole Gang of 8 thing, personally.

I actually have major problems with the H-1B visa program, after coming into contact (and working with) plenty of H-1Bs in Silicon Valley. The rules were insane -- you had to get the visa through the company that hired you, but then once you got it you could not change jobs -- if you did, you had to start the process all over again. This did indeed depress wages, because it created a sort of "indentured servant" class in high-tech companies, who couldn't bargain on the open market for the true price of their services. But that's a whole 'nother issue...

Also, I have to say that while I found it offensive, I also had to laugh at your phrase "undocumented Democrats," just because it was indeed funny. So, while in total disagreement in general, credit where it's due.

nypoet22 -

Oh, SNAP! [do people even say that anymore?]

Quoting James Tiberius Kirk to Michale is the ultimate petard-hoisting, in my opinion. Well done!

:-)

Ok, here's my contribution to the conversation:

Sheldon: I see. You’re saying I’m facing Starfleet Academy’s unwinnable command scenario, the Kobayashi Maru.

Penny: Right there with you.

[-- from "The Big Bang Theory"...]

Michale [14] -

Except that that's pretty much where America was for approximately our first century and a half. Immigration was almost completely wide-open, then we started barring people we didn't like (look up "Chinese Exclusion Act" for a good example), and eventually we got where we are now. But, for instance, in WWII, we absolutely needed the braceros to get the harvest in. Immigration is not as cut and dried as some now would have you believe. The limits are what is modern, and not where we began as a country. Just had to toss that out there.

Michale and nypoet22 -

So what do you think of, instead of freakin' DOUBLING the size of the Border Patrol (already our biggest federal police force), putting the same money to good use to hiring agents at ICE, and cutting down the backlog to 2 years instead of 20? Still haven't heard that proposed by anyone in Washington -- the backlog is there because politicians refuse to spend the money on the problem that it so obviously deserves.

Remember, my wife's been through the process. We were almost at the front of the line (minor children of adults were ahead of spouses), so we only had to wait three years to get a single response to the 100-150 page application we turned in. That is lightning speed compared to many, because spouses are at the front of the line.

Imagine how you'd feel if you went to the DMV to renew your driver's license and they told you that you'd get your new license in three years. Just imagine that for one second. To say nothing of "20 years"...

-CW

Agreed...

however, the wait time for that process needs to be something reasonable like maybe 2 years tops (certainly not 20!). and it shouldn't discriminate against people from countries like mexico that have more people who want to immigrate (or who already have, illegally). people won't be willing to self-deport unless they have some assurance that they will have a chance to be legal within a year or two.

Again, I agree. The laws need changing..

But would you agree that our first and foremost consideration should be the needs of THIS country, as opposed to the needs of the immigrant??

Or worse yet, the needs of a particular Political Party??

Michale

obviously, everyone who wants to immigrate should be vetted through some process to determine if they're going to be responsible citizens. i absolutely agree with your security concerns - nobody should be coming illegally, especially post-9/11.

however, the wait time for that process needs to be something reasonable like maybe 2 years tops (certainly not 20!). and it shouldn't discriminate against people from countries like mexico that have more people who want to immigrate (or who already have, illegally). people won't be willing to self-deport unless they have some assurance that they will have a chance to be legal within a year or two.

You sure know how to talk to me!! :D

i try ;)

Other than to ask.. Why should we allow every Tom, Dick and Harry into this country??

Who died and made the United States Of America the world's welfare agency..

I mean, the vast majority of desirable countries have immigration laws that put the needs of the country first..

Why should the US be any different??

Wouldn't you agree that simply having open borders is a bad idea, especially with the security climate of the here and now??

I agree with you that our rules need overhauling.

But the Democrats way of "Ya'all come!!" is simply not logical and is solely and completely based on a political/partisan agenda with absolutely NO REGARD for the security ramifications...

Michale

The same people who decide everything of this nature.

Our elected representatives..

And if we the people don't like their decisions, we fire them...

when the test is a kobayashi maru type scenario, how can quality be determined based only on which individuals cheat?

You sure know how to talk to me!! :D

I have no answer for that at this time..

I'll let it percolate a bit and see what comes to me..

Michale

who gets to decide what quality is? when the test is a kobayashi maru type scenario, how can quality be determined based only on which individuals cheat? in such a scenario, the best (leaders and pioneers) and the worst (thugs and kingpins) behave the same.

"I don't believe in the no-win scenario."
~James T. Kirk - 'The Wrath of Khan'

Nice... :D

As I indicated, I concede the point that our immigration laws definitely are in need of overhaul.

That point is not in contention..

But I am sure you would agree that we should make every effort to insure quality over quantity.

No??

Michale

that might be the case if our laws regarding legal immigration were within the bounds of reason. They're not. Some people who want to immigrate legally from mexico have waited 20 years. that means if your wife is pregnant, by the time you are allowed to come to the US, your kid is an adult and can't come with you. It's a no-win scenario, and for argument's sake let's just say that some people don't believe in the no-win scenario.

"I don't believe in the no-win scenario."
~James T. Kirk - 'The Wrath of Khan'

It definitely needs a major overhaul..

But the way to do that WITHOUT impacting and causing major upheavals to the low and middle class is to revamp our IMMIGRANT system. Not the ILLEGAL Immigrant system..

Increase green cards for higher end DESIRABLE immigrants.. Increase quotas for hi-tech workers.

The problem with they way it's being done now is it is STILL too hard for the good immigrants to come to this country..

All we are doing with the current legislation is making it a LOT easier for the dregs and criminals of other societies to bring all their problems to this country...

Which is not to say that I am advocating that ALL immigrants are the dregs and criminals of other societies. I am not. Not at all..

But the problem with our current laws AND the legislation being bandied about is that it makes little to no effort to separate the good immigrants from the undesirables...

I won't even bother touching on the political aspects (IE "Undocumented Democrats) because THAT is self-evident.. :D

Michale

My evidence is that most hiring is done by small businesses & immigrants legal or otherwise start a fair proportion of new small businesses.

I would grant you that immigrants are the driving force behind small businesses..

However, I find it very difficult to believe that ILLEGAL immigrants have any kind of relevant small business creation impact. Especially in light of the post 9/11 world we live in.

The documentation requirements alone would prohibit it.

At least, I would think/hope so...

I am willing to go so far as to say that someone willing to float 90 miles through shark infested water on an inflated tire; or someone willing to sneak through the desert; are the very people with the drive & initiative necessary to start a business & the determination to make it a success.

If they had that drive you ascribe to them, then they would do their immigration LEGALLY..

To me, anyone who goes thru such lengths to avoid legal immigration is not someone I think of as a contributing member of our country.

I think that just reflects our outlooks on life.

You're the humanitarian, I am more concerned with safety and security...

I agree that immigration is a difficult issue. I'm only sure that walls, fences, and national ID cards are not the answer.

Walls, fences and ID cards are not immigration tools. They are security tools..

I don't need you to donate to my local shelter. It's enough that the homeless in your area are helped. You do not have to post your receipt. Your word is more than enough.

I am flattered.. Truly...

I'll make it happen..

Michale

My evidence is that most hiring is done by small businesses & immigrants legal or otherwise start a fair proportion of new small businesses.

I am willing to go so far as to say that someone willing to float 90 miles through shark infested water on an inflated tire; or someone willing to sneak through the desert; are the very people with the drive & initiative necessary to start a business & the determination to make it a success.

I agree that immigration is a difficult issue. I'm only sure that walls, fences, and national ID cards are not the answer.

I don't need you to donate to my local shelter. It's enough that the homeless in your area are helped. You do not have to post your receipt. Your word is more than enough.

Boxer was not alone. Sixteen Democrats, including labor-union allies Sherrod Brown (Ohio) and Tom Harkin (Iowa), voted against the final bill that year, many after expressing similar concerns about its potential impact on American workers.

Once again, the power of the almighty '-X' is on display for all to see...

Michale

That's EXACTLY what I am saying...

Funny thing is, Barbra Call-Me-Senator Boxer voiced that opposition when it was Bush's Immigration plan..

Now that it's the Democrat's Immigration plan, all of the sudden the impact on the job market and unemployment is not an issue..

Wish I could say I was surprised...

Michale

Regardless of that, you must concede that THAT won't likely happen for many MANY years, if it happens at all..

And it still won't change the fact that, in the here and now AND the near future, those millions of new workers are going to be dumped into a job market that already has a VERY large over-abundance of workers of that type..

So, where is the logic in over-stressing an already over-stressed market??

A stress that might push up OTHER minority unemployment up over 50% or more...

The Left in this country (and around the world) have a great big issue with the United States being the world's police force..

Why should we be the world's welfare agency or job placement agency??

Michale

What do you base that on??

Any immigrant to the US, but particularly those who would flaunt laws, and risk their lives to get here, are the ones with the most "can-do" spirit.

But we're not talking about IMMIGRANTS..

We are talking about heretofore ILLEGAL immigrants..

And, as crime statistics show, the only "can do" spirit in ILLEGAL immigrants is of the criminal type.. Generally speaking...

They may come needing jobs; but pretty soon they're starting their own businesses. They hire others, immigrants or not

Can I see your evidence to back this up??

Your 1000 quatloos should be donated to your local homeless shelter. I don't require the whole 1000. I'll settle for $25 to the shelter.

Fair enough. I am nothing, if not a man of my word..

But it would have more meaning if it were donated to YOUR local homeless shelter. Post or email a link with a donation page to a shelter or charity of your choice, PayPal'able if possible.

I will send the donation and post the receipt..

Michale

Any immigrant to the US, but particularly those who would flaunt laws, and risk their lives to get here, are the ones with the most "can-do" spirit. They may come needing jobs; but pretty soon they're starting their own businesses. They hire others, immigrants or not, and thus are the very "job creators" ostensibly loved by Republicans.

Your 1000 quatloos should be donated to your local homeless shelter. I don't require the whole 1000. I'll settle for $25 to the shelter.

On what planet is it a good idea to add millions of low-end workers to a job market that is already overly stuffed and saturated with low end workers??

1000 quatloos says I don't see a legitimate answer...

Michale