Our POTUS is simply incapable of such an action..

Again, that COULD be a positive attribute in a leader.

But when does positive thinking become false bravado??

When does a "never say die" attitude become too rigid thinking??

Michale

*MY* only problem is the "without parental involvement" aspect of it..

It puts the government between kids and parents..

And I simple do NOT want to live in a society that thinks that THAT is perfectly OK...

Michale

If it were anyone else, David that MIGHT be a problem.. :D

And hope there's a beer in your near future

Are you looking at my shop cams!??? :D

Michale

You know what the lesson I'd learn from a parent forcing me to have a baby at age 12 would be ... my parents are unreasonable and perhaps not very good parents.

Most parents that force such a decision end up raising the child anyways...

My point is that the "They are going to do it anyways" argument is a weak argument, much like the marijuana legalization argument...

Parenting is NOT about choosing the path of least resistance...

Michale

In all likelihood, this scenario would never occur because you would make sure she was responsible enough not to get into that situation.

So hope you don't take comments personally. And yeah, if I had a daughter, I'd be uncomfortable with her having sex at a young age as well. And I'd do my darnedest to make sure it didn't happen. But I would also educate her about birth control with the knowledge that kids don't always listen to their parents.

Probably time to bow out of this one on my side as it's starting to get the feel of being too personal.

Happy National Doughnut Day to you!

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2013/06/07/189514005/on-national-doughnut-day-free-food-and-feel-good-history

And hope there's a beer in your near future

-David

Find me a parent of a 10+ girl or girls that says giving them access to birth control at ANY age w/o parental involvement is a good idea and I'll be willing to listen and consider their argument..

But I doubt you are going to find anyone like that..

:D

Michale

Whups. This should read ... having a kid at 12, 13, or 14 requires adult maturity.

"Forcing someone to" is selfish and immature.

-David

Fair enough.

Believe it or not I would pretty much say the same thing.

I would just argue that forcing someone to have a kid at age 12, 13, or 14 requires adult maturity.

And any parent who would do this to one of their kids is not very responsible. I say this because I do know people who would do this for religious reasons.

Then how will the underage girl LEARN from that mistake?

So why not a night in jail?

If you're really interested in a lesson, why not a more appropriate lesson?

Maybe a grounding. Why make a 12-year old raise a kid?

Maybe it's me but it seems a bit unreasonable to me.

You know what the lesson I'd learn from a parent forcing me to have a baby at age 12 would be ... my parents are unreasonable and perhaps not very good parents.

-David

Duxbury Officials Investigate Discovery Of ‘Sexting’ 8th Grade Students
http://boston.cbslocal.com/2013/06/06/duxbury-officials-investigate-discovery-of-sexting-8th-grade-students/

:^/

Michale

So, this debate is all probably moot... :D

Just letting you know up front..

And I have to also be honest and say that ANY parent of a daughter will likely tell you the same thing...

Michale

When it's illegal, abso-fracking-loutly...

Do you think that 12, 13 and 14 year old girls are having sex with 12, 13 and 14 year old boys??

No.. They are having sex with 18, 19 and 20+ year old boys..

So, you tell me.. Is that legal/moral/right???

The difference of opinion is that I think birth control is a benefit.

No, it's the product of a decision by a mature mind..

Just as drinking and taking drugs is...

Using your reasoning, we should make it available to minors because (obviously) they are better equipped to make such decisions than their parents are..

I am STILL waiting for a parent (ANY parent) to tell me I am wrong.....

"Anyone??? Anyone??? Beuhler???"

:D

And I don't want to punish underage girls for 18 years for what might have been a one night mistake.

Then how will the underage girl LEARN from that mistake???

She won't.. She'll continue to make that same mistake over and over again...

"We're not making the same mistakes!"
"No, no. You are making all NEW mistakes!!"
-Jurassic Park II

Michale

So do any laws for underage children.

Yet you support laws for drinking and/or driving. So you are for big government.

Sometimes.

When you agree with it.

It takes away consequences for improper behavior.

So ... there should be consequences for sex? And underage girls who should not be having sex should be having kids?

Here's where I think our differences lie.

I think forcing teenage girls to have kids is a bit extreme.

Maybe we could chop off their hands like Saudi Arabia instead?

Or maybe just have them spend a night in jail?

Why is it important that they have babies when you don't even think they're mature enough to have sex?

The difference of opinion here is that you think the federal government knows better than parents.

The difference of opinion is that I think birth control is a benefit.

And I don't want to punish underage girls for 18 years for what might have been a one night mistake.

-David

You appear to agree with CW, that Obama is way off base and utterly hypocritical by his actions..

Is that accurate?? :D

Michale

Nothing.

The harm comes in the mental and emotional maturity of the children in question. It takes away consequences for improper behavior..

And it puts the government between parents and kids..

With birth control, society has decided there is no harm.

No.. Liberals/Democrats/Progressives has decided there is no harm.

Big difference. Big.. HUGE...

Why are you for parental control when it comes to birth control yet for big government when it comes to alcohol and drugs?

Parents can decide to give their kids wine in small increments and there ain't nothing the government can do..

The difference of opinion here is that you think the federal government knows better than parents..

I prefer to give the parents the benefit of the doubt..

Michale

There's a simple difference. Drinking and drugs can harm kids.

What harm will birth control do?

Nothing.

Except maybe prevent some unwanted pregnancies.

Who SHOULD decide what's harmful to kids?

Is birth control harmful?

You still haven't answered this question.

I think experts and we as a community decide. The same way we did with drugs and alcohol.

Society decided these were harmful and therefore there are laws.

With birth control, society has decided there is no harm.

The government or the parents?

Using your logic, there should be no laws for alcohol or tobacco or drugs.

Parents should decide everything.

Why are you for parental control when it comes to birth control yet for big government when it comes to alcohol and drugs?

Let's be honest, Michale. You love big government. When big government does what you want.

And there it is ... :)

-David

Actually, that is the question I am asking you.

Why are you so gung ho about putting the government between kids and parents??

I can see many situations in which kids might be forced to become 13- or 14-year old parents for purely religious reasons.

Really?? Give me a realistic example...

My guess is that you think somehow kids are going to go out and have sex like wild monkeys if they have access to birth control.

Using that reasoning, we should give kids access to drugs and alcohol..

The problem is, ya'all are thinking that kids will make wise and mature decisions with absolutely NOTHING to support that thinking..

Guess what? If it's going to happen it's going to happen whether or not birth control is available.

Therefore, why not make birth control available to anyone who wants it?

Kids are going to drink and do drugs whether or not it's legal.

Therefore why not make it available to anyone who wants it?

It's the EXACT same flawed reasoning..

The only reason for the government to mandate parental control would be if somehow birth control was harmful.

Why should THAT be the deciding factor??

And who SHOULD decide what's harmful to kids??

The government or the parents??

Well, I know that YOU think it should be government. Because the government has done such a bang-up (no pun intended :D ) in other aspects??

BTW, if you as a parent are unable to educate your kids about sex, you probably don't deserve to be a parent and your kids might very well be capable of making better decisions than you.

And there it is..

:D

Michale

Why do you want the government to mandate parental power?

I can see many situations in which kids might be forced to become 13- or 14-year old parents for purely religious reasons.

I see no possible harm caused by allowing access to the morning after pill. And much possible harm by denying it.

My guess is that you think somehow kids are going to go out and have sex like wild monkeys if they have access to birth control.

Guess what? If it's going to happen it's going to happen whether or not birth control is available.

Therefore, why not make birth control available to anyone who wants it?

The only reason for the government to mandate parental control would be if somehow birth control was harmful.

-David

BTW, if you as a parent are unable to educate your kids about sex, you probably don't deserve to be a parent and your kids might very well be capable of making better decisions than you.

Michale

yeah, pretty much. there are some pretty convincing correlational statistics on legalized abortion and crime rates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalized_abortion_and_crime_effect

Consequence free sex for ADULTS is fine...

What parent would want their 12-yr old daughter going there...

No parent that *I* know of...

But maybe I am out of touch... It's possible..

Any parents want to chime in and tell me how far off base I am???

Michale

Does anyone think it's a good idea to have 12, 13, and 14 year old parents?

I don't see why anyone would want to punish 12-year old parents and the kids of these parents. And the rest of society who is eventually going to have to deal with these 'effed up kids.

Why do you want them to have "consequences" for having sex? What does that accomplish?

-David

Anyone at all???

Michale

What do you think will happen when the government starts eliminating consequences and FORCES parents to accept the elimination of consequences??

Do we REALLY want to live in a society like that??

Michale

It IS a good read...

And I agree whole-heartedly with what the guy is saying.

*MY* only problem is all that is being bandied about right now bypasses the parents..

It takes the parents out of the equation, which is the WORST possible options of all the bad options out there..

Basically what it is saying is that the government trusts immature 12, 13 and 14 years olds to make better decisions than their parents would..

I am all for making contraceptives, abortions etc etc etc available to ANY ONE who wants them..

WITH parental consent

That has been and always will be my only point of contention...

Michale

I would encourage you to read the article that last link points to. It is one of the more extraordinary things I've ever read from a Republican.

I keep hoping that sooner or later the real conservative arguments like this one will be listened to rather than the culture warriors in the GOP. But I'm not holding my breath...

-CW

That must have been a pretty hard admission to make..

But it's what I have come to expect from you.

By and large, you ignore that all-powerful "-x" and call a spade a spade..

Kudos

As for the commentary...

Because what he's fighting for, ultimately, is his own political hypocrisy.

That said it all.. :D

Seriously, you know how I feel about it, so there is no reason to re-hash old arguments..

But, inadvertently, you may have hit on the entire problem with Obama's Presidency.

He does what HE wants, regardless of laws, public opinion or anything (or anyone) else..

Now, one could spin that to say, "He does what he thinks is right, regardless" which would be an admirable trait in a leader..

The problem with that spin is that what Obama THINKS is "right", rarely is...

I could list dozens of examples but, as I said before, why re-hash old arguments. :D

Future historians will likely look back on Obama's Presidency and wonder how the American People put up with such a dilettante, such an ego-driven "leader"...

Michale