For example, in the discussion David and I are having in the WEDGES/EDGES commentary, I could easily say, "People are going to get guns if they really want them, so why bother with background checks??"

It's one of those slippery slope arguments that might lead ya down a road you do not want to travel...

Michale

Let's approach this from a different angle..

I have already stated why I am opposed to this. Giving kids access to a I-Can-Have-Consequence-Free-Sex pill w/o parental involvement is a bad bad thing.

Why are you for it??

Michale

No, I am just EXPANDING the argument..

Ya'all seem to want to say that we should trust the kids to make the smart decision when it comes to having sex..

I am simply asking ya'all to be CONSISTENT in ya'alls arguments and not give in to ideological arguments..

Further, there really is no "wrong" or "right" position in this, because it's a judgment/morality call...

As for the main subject, here's a fact for you: kids are going to have sex. They have been having sex approximately since time began, they are having sex RIGHT NOW (OMG!) and they will continue to go on having sex approximately forever. Nothing you, I, or the government says or does is going to change that basic fact one iota. Them's the facts, Jack.

That argument doesn't hold water...

Kids are going to drink and do drugs and tons of other stuff that is flat out WRONG....

Does that mean the government should make it EASIER for them to do it??

One of the greatest love stories in the Western canon just proves my point. Romeo was 14 or 15 years old. Juliet was 13. Look it up.

OK, if you are advocating a return to that simpler time, I am CERTAIN I can find some aspects of that time ya'all would just hate, right?? :D Should I?? :D

Well, we obviously want to reduce teenage pregnancy?

What happens if a 13 year old is raped by her father? Do you want her to have access to Plan B, or not? Why?

Of course.. WITH PARENTAL CONSENT....

When you had your first sexual experience, how soon afterwards did you tell your parents?

Ummmmm NEVER... :D

Deal with the facts, and not with "I want the world to be this way, and I want the government to agree with me," and I'll take your argument seriously.

This is not a "fact based" argument. As I said from the outset, this is one of my few (VERY few) arguments that is not based in logic..

I have done my best to answer your points. I am hoping you can answer one of mine..

Do you think it's a good call, from a parenting point of view, to make it EASIER for children to make stupid decisions??

How is allowing access to Plan B w/o parental consent any different than allowing access to alcohol and drugs??

Finally I would like to hear from any parents here in Weigantia that disagree with my arguments..

If there are, exactly what about my argument is "wrong"??

Michale

Schools are a red herring which you seem to be introducing because you're losing the main argument. Want to argue that schools shouldn't administer Plan B? OK, I'm fine with that. End of discussion. We're talking about the drug store, not schools.

As for the main subject, here's a fact for you: kids are going to have sex. They have been having sex approximately since time began, they are having sex RIGHT NOW (OMG!) and they will continue to go on having sex approximately forever. Nothing you, I, or the government says or does is going to change that basic fact one iota. Them's the facts, Jack.

One of the greatest love stories in the Western canon just proves my point. Romeo was 14 or 15 years old. Juliet was 13. Look it up.

So, given this fact, what should we do about it?

Well, we obviously want to reduce teenage pregnancy, so what are the options? Make birth control widely available so kids actually use it, or make it as hard for them to get as possible?

Condoms are currently sold everywhere (at least where I live). There is no age restriction, they're right there on the shelf. They are for males to use.

They are not perfect. Sometimes they break. But there's a pill available (which is safer than Tylenol) to females at a steep price (for a teen) which is more effective the sooner it is taken.

So, what do you do? Make it harder and more time-consuming for teens to use it, or make it easier so they can get it at maximum effectiveness?

Remember, condoms are available to all, no age limit.

Why is the government involved in this decision? It's a private person, and a private business, and use of the pill is beneficial and not harmful (unlike your red herring about alcohol). No tax dollars used.

So what's your problem? Gee, it'd be nice if every parent was loving and communicative and every kid was also communicative and lived in an ideal home setting. Guess what? That's not factual, that's a fantasy.

What happens if a 13 year old is raped by her father? Do you want her to have access to Plan B, or not? Why?

If you had a son, and he was having sex without telling you about it, would you want him to be using a condom? When you had your first sexual experience, how soon afterwards did you tell your parents? I think the answer with me was "never," personally. And yet I like to think my parents and me got along well enough. To put this another way: What age did you start carrying a condom in your wallet?

Deal with the facts, and not with "I want the world to be this way, and I want the government to agree with me," and I'll take your argument seriously.

-CW

Michale

Nothing in ANY of the dress codes about NRA T-shirts.

American Flag t-shirts!?? Com'on...

i agree that incidents of school violence have led to a ridiculous level of enforcement against anything remotely connected with guns. that's human nature, we overreact.

Agreed.. So let's see those Lefties ADMIT it's an over-reaction and, hell.. APOLOGIZE for it.. Whatta concept, eh??

My point in all this is that, if ya'all want to trust kids with such adult and monumental decisions as sex, then they should EQUALLY be trusted with OTHER aspects of adult-hood, no???

But, as with 98% of everything else discussed here, the political agenda is first and foremost...

Michale

schools have dress codes, so the learning environment is not disrupted. that doesn't mean people lose their first amendment rights, but bandanas, rosaries and gang colors are very heavily policed.

i agree that incidents of school violence have led to a ridiculous level of enforcement against anything remotely connected with guns. that's human nature, we overreact. at least in theory, people shouldn't be wasting class time promoting their views on birth control either.

So why is it that kids should be able to buy any kind of drugs, alcohol and birth control but they can't be trusted to wear an NRA t-shirt???

Michale

Also another Plan B - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQjh9H-ymK4

Kids can have ALL the Birth Control they want (and having the taxpayers PAY for it is coming) yet kids CAN'T wear an NRA T-shirt or an American Flag bandana to school..

Where is the logic in that??

Michale

No...

But I also don't think we should go out of our way to insure that kids can have access to them w/o giving their parents a say in the matter...

THAT is what this issue is about...

Michale

Sounds good, right??

Then please explain to me why these same kids are being disciplined and arrested because they wear a gun/NRA t-shirt or they possess a frakin' BUBBLE blower in the shape of a gun or (OH THE HORROR!!!) some elementary school kid makes a gun shaped object out of POPSICLE STICKS!!!

Can ANYONE explain to me the logic of such completely diametrically opposed positions??

What's the common denominator here???

It's the common denominator kids and their "rights"???

Nope...

The common denominator is the Leftist/Democrat ideological agenda...

Anyone wanna dispute this conclusion???

By all means, take yer best shot...

But please... Bring FACTS to the discussion...

Michale

"Forgive me, but my logic falters where my son is concerned."
-Sarek Of Vulcan, STAR TREK III: THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK

For once, it's not about logic...

It's about morality.. It's about welfare of the children..

Do you see any difference between the Plan B option and making booze and drugs available for kids??

"They're gonna drink and do drugs anyways, so..."

and

"A liter of whiskey is $30!! Kids won't be able to buy it!!"

Seriously, this is where your logic leads. Keep in mind -- the pill costs FIFTY BUCKS. No kid is going to use this product unless they absolutely NEED to use it. And when they do need it, the longer they wait the less effective it becomes. So why can't they buy it and use it without having to make an appointment with their doctor? It just makes no sense whatsoever to throw this hurdle in the way when it doesn't need to be there.

And parents get absolutely NO SAY in the matter???

Tylenol is a more dangerous drug than Plan B -- that's what the medical science says.

It's not about dangerous drugs or medical science..

It's about setting limits and boundaries in our children...

It's about the government supplanting parents and pitting kids against their parents..

"Dad!! You can't prevent me from getting the It's OK To Have Sex pill!!! President Obama says I have a RIGHT to have it!!!"

Is THAT the kind of society we want to live in??

*I* sure as hell don't...

On another note... Speaking of Trek:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2318237/Star-Trek-Into-Darkness-trailer-Uhura-shares-passionate-kiss-Spock.html

Star Trek as we know it is dead.. :(

Michale

So, you think condoms should have an age limit to buy? Interesting... what age would you set it at?

You can't have it both ways. If Plan B is sending some sort of "message" then condom availability is sending exactly the same message. Right?

[in the backseat of some car near you:]
Bobby Joe: "Come on, baby, let's go all the way tonight!"
Linda Sue: "Well, gosh, I saw something on the drug store shelf that gave me full permission so I guess I'll just say yes!"

Seriously, this is where your logic leads. Keep in mind -- the pill costs FIFTY BUCKS. No kid is going to use this product unless they absolutely NEED to use it. And when they do need it, the longer they wait the less effective it becomes. So why can't they buy it and use it without having to make an appointment with their doctor? It just makes no sense whatsoever to throw this hurdle in the way when it doesn't need to be there.

Can kids buy Tylenol today? Tylenol is a more dangerous drug than Plan B -- that's what the medical science says. And yet, Tylenol's right there on the shelf where they can buy it.

-CW

As mature adults (you, more so than I... :D) that is a logical and rational point..

To a teenager, all they think is, "Well, if they are making this available to me, then it MUST be OK...."

As to the former, that was my first thought as well.. Any electronic process can be hacked..

And, frankly, it seems to me that this would make it easier for teachers to further disengage from their students...

We want to ENCOURAGE personal contact, not make it easier for teachers to avoid it..

Michale

electronic monitoring of student engagement sounds interesting for research purposes, but the nanosecond you start to attach consequences to the results, they will lose all validity. all systems that involve reward or punishment immediately lend themselves to being manipulated for an advantage. kids would learn to play video games while highlighting passages they aren't really reading.

and on the current thread, i disagree about legalization of plan-b being a tacit endorsement of unprotected sex. it's a question of proportion. i don't think plan-b changes society's message that underage, unprotected sex is a bad decision; it just gives kids a way to pay for that bad decision by buying an expensive pill, not by spending the next nineteen years on an unwanted pregnancy.

~joshua

On another, unrelated note...

http://www.chrisweigant.com/2013/04/26/ftp255/#comment-36238

Could you check the last comment there.. I am interested in your thoughts on it..

Michale

Yea, I find it hard to cheer on the DOJ in this case because their reasoning is just as frak'ed up as the judge's who ordered that the drug be sold across the counter w/ no age restrictions/parental consent.

At the risk of sounding like a hysterical Right Wing ideological fanatic, it's crap like this that is contributing to the moral decline of our society and pits kids against their parents..

Michale

Because it gives tacit approval to kids to do very wrong things..

It's akin to parents going out and buying booze or drugs for their kids...

"They're going to drink or do drugs anyways, so why not make it easier for them??"

As a parent, I don't buy it..

And, all politics aside, I think that most parents would agree with me...

Michale

Ironically enough, I just found out I am going to be a grandpa..... again. :D

Wow....

Howz THAT for a contradiction, eh!?? :D

Michale

Sorry, I don't buy it..

Don't get me wrong. Your arguments for it are logical and rational..

But it's like with legalizing drugs. There are a thousand good and logical reasons why legalizing drugs is the right thing to do.

But some things are simply wrong, despite all the logical reasons that support it.

Legalizing drugs is one of those things. This Plan-B availability to ANYONE is another..

I *AM* glad to see that ya'all didn't use the "we should just trust the kids to do the right thing" argument..

Because THAT argument takes us down a road that I don't think ANY of us want to travel down..

As a parent, I simply cannot see any good coming from this...

Ironically enough, I just found out I am going to be a grandpa..... again. :D

Michale

Yeah, I saw the story right after I posted. I hate it when that happens, although it didn't really invalidate what I had to say here, just clarified it a bit.

[1] -

Is there an age limit on condoms? No, no there isn't. Should there be? I would argue no, personally. What happens if the condom breaks? Plan B. What's the problem? Why should government be the great moralizer?

Plan B is not consequence-free. It costs something like $30-60 per pill. That may not be a lot of money to you and me, but to a teenager, that's a pretty big consequence, and one that you'll plan ahead to avoid in the future. $50 is a steep price to pay to the drug store, every time you have sex. Nobody's going to use this for their "Plan A" birth control (hence the name...) -- rubbers are cheaper. It's the kid's money, not tax dollars or anything, so what's your beef?

-CW

Am I the ONLY parent of a daughter here???

i don't have one of my own, but i have taught hundreds of thirteen and fourteen year olds. i can tell you with absolute certainty that denying the medicine would do zilch to prevent unprotected sex. if the threat of AIDS isn't enough to dissuade teens, neither is the lack of plan-b pill. is the plan-b pill moral? hellz if i know, but not one teen will say to herself, "gee, there's no plan b pill, so i guess i won't have unprotected sex now.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_MED_MORNING_AFTER_PILL_JUSTICE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-05-01-19-48-16

Michale

Does anyone want to discuss the MORALITY of making it easier for girls (and guys) to have consequence free sex??

Am I the ONLY parent of a daughter here???

I mean, most of ya'all know me and my attitudes on sex... The more, the merrier is my motto! :D

But that doesn't mean that I want that to apply to my own underage children..

(Which I no longer have, thank the gods...) :D

But still....

Why not just eliminate the age restrictions on EVERYTHING and truly send this country on the highway to hell??

Michale