In other words....

http://www.chrisweigant.com/2013/04/19/ftp254/#comment-35880

And yet, you have already commented that you don't like it..

Ergo, it is as I stated...

It's a bad plan simply because it's from a Republican...

I wish I could say I was surprised...

But I am not...

Michale

Abso-posi-loutly...

But it doesn't change the facts..

There is absolutely no convincing you that you are looking at this from the wrong view so I give up.

Now that's the first thing you have said that makes sense.. There IS no convincing me..

Because I have the facts, the law AND a wealth of experience on my side..

I presume you support no immigration bill that will keep these evil criminals in the country?

I support the Rubio plan as it puts the onus of responsibility where it belongs.

On the criminal..

And it doesn't reward the criminal.

It PENALIZES the criminal...

It's justice.. not coddling...

Michale

There is absolutely no convincing you that you are looking at this from the wrong view so I give up.

I presume you support no immigration bill that will keep these evil criminals in the country?

You STILL don't get it.

They are committing the crime by remaining in the United States illegally..

There is absolutely NOTHING stopping them from leaving the country.

If they make a CONSCIOUS choice to remain in the United States illegally, THEY are committing the crime..

You are not an American. You are no where NEAR an LEO... Don't presume to lecture me on what I lived and breathed for decades...

Michale

THAT's what YOU don't get....

No, you don't really get basic principles of legal and human rights. Read my last sentence in my previous post again.

You can't 'pass' a crime on to someone else. The parents committed the crime. A crime can't be inherited from your parents lolol. And you can't commit a crime that has already been committed.

Wrong..

The CRIME occurs EVERY DAY that they are in the country illegally..

Once the kid turns 18 and becomes an adult, the CRIME now belongs to him/her..

And will continue EVERY DAY that *THEY* are illegally in the country...

THAT's what YOU don't get...

Michale

No it is you who is missing the point completely. The point at which the crime occurred was when the kid's parents took them illegally into America. When their foot touched down on the ground.

The fact they are 16, 17 or 18 has nothing to do with it. Saying that someone becomes a criminal merely by the sun setting on their 6,205th day on the planet is just ridiculously laughable. There is no 'criminal responsibility' for someone to rectify the criminal actions of others.

Com'on, michty.. I know for a fact that you are not THIS much of a moron..

Turning 18 is not illegal..

But being an illegal adult in this country IS illegal..

Iddn't it funny how Liberals are all about the rule of law..

Until it's ideologically inconvenient...

Michale

1 day later = GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY YOU CRIMINAL SCUM!

Lolol amazing.

Period..

So you're saying the act of them turning 18 is a crime?? Wow I'd hate to live under your laws. I wonder what other nonsense you would make a crime...

Once they turned 18 and did not voluntarily deport, they became illegal.

Period..

No amount of bleeding heart equivocating will change that one simple FACT...

I'll ignore the rest because it's nothing but emotional bleeding heart felgercarb..

No matter how much you try, the simple fact is, this isn't about immigrants.. My own step-mother is an immigrant.. Hell, technically speaking, my lovely wife of 32 years is an immigrant..

This is about criminals..

PERIOD...

Michale

They are criminals.. By ANY definition, they are criminals..

Absolutely not. Their parents are criminals, sure. That's a no-brainer. But holding children responsible for the criminal actions of their parents is not going to fly with me.

Spare me the bleeding heart.. I have seen too much of the crime and heartache, the brutality and the bloodshed caused by these "children" to really care one whit about them...

This is exactly what I talked about before - people either consciously or sub consciously aren't thinking rationally or logically when talking about immigration, they are letting race and their own personal biases impact their views. I think we finally got to the truth as to why you're so opposed to the DREAM Act in this statement.

And when that child turns 18 and is an adult, they are legally responsible for themselves.

If they continue to violate the law, that is on them..

They are criminals.. By ANY definition, they are criminals..

Spare me the bleeding heart.. I have seen too much of the crime and heartache, the brutality and the bloodshed caused by these "children" to really care one whit about them...

Michale

So people who entered the country, lived and breathed America and fulfilled all their legal obligations to society should be denied their right to vote when they become an adult only because they were obeying parental guardian laws as a child (like a child would have a choice anyway).

The FIRST obligation that someone must fulfill to society is to OBEY THE LAW...

Until they fulfill that function, they are criminals.

Pure and simple...

Michale

You do realise I mentioned many, many, many times that voting is dependent on someone fulfilling their obligations to society?

And the FIRST obligation that someone must fulfill to society is to OBEY THE LAW...

Until they fulfill that function, they are criminals.

Pure and simple...

. Being dragged to a country illegally as a child by your parents is NOT deliberately choosing to break the law.

It is when they reach adult hood and continue the crime..

Uhm nope. I hear it all the time. Many people actually don't even differentiate between illegal immigrants and immigrants.

Well, then many people are idiots..

But LOGICAL and RATIONAL people differentiate...

We are NOT talking about immigrants, no matter how hard you try to change the subject.

We are talking about ILLEGAL immigrants.

Criminals...

I glanced over the link and it looks like nothing but a puff piece written by Rubio himself. I'm not surprised in the least that Fox would post this. Anything else?

So, in other words, you don't care about immigrants at all..

You just want to further your partisan agenda at the expense of immigrants AND Americans..

Well, I am sure glad you aren't around here to vote.. :D

Michale

You would have NO PROBLEM with that??

Uhm that's a totally different analogy lol. You do realise I mentioned many, many, many times that voting is dependent on someone fulfilling their obligations to society? Immigrants who are living, working and doing this should have the right to vote. No ifs or buts. No candy or nuts.

So, if someone breaks into your home while you are on vacation, eats all your food, runs up thousands of dollars in utility bills and destroys your house, you would accept, "Sorry, buddy.. I had no choice"...

Lolol amazing. Again: read my answer. This act is them deliberately choosing to break the law. Being dragged to a country illegally as a child by your parents is NOT deliberately choosing to break the law. To compare the 2 is completely laughable.

people have very logical and rational connotations towards ILLEGAL immigrants..

Uhm nope. I hear it all the time. Many people actually don't even differentiate between illegal immigrants and immigrants. Many just see them as people who weren't born here and have come to 'steal our jobs' etc etc. Funnily enough the same people change their tone considerably when I tell them that effectively I am an immigrant stealing their jobs. Strangely enough they don't seem to have a problem with me - a white, male, English speaker - doing this... But naaaah it's nothing to do with race relations ;)

As far as the key details of Rubio's plan..

I glanced over the link and it looks like nothing but a puff piece written by Rubio himself. I'm not surprised in the least that Fox would post this. Anything else?

So, you have absolutely NO PROBLEM with a couple million American Rednecks, heading up to your neck of the woods, swaying the election to elect a scumbag politician that you despise and then heading back down to America, laughing their asses off??

You would have NO PROBLEM with that??

Com'on, michty! I may have been born at night, but it wasn't LAST night...

Right and some people didn't have the choice to obey the law.

Oh yea, always the whiney "poor poor me" excuse..

So, if someone breaks into your home while you are on vacation, eats all your food, runs up thousands of dollars in utility bills and destroys your house, you would accept, "Sorry, buddy.. I had no choice"...

Once again.. At night, but not LAST night...

I only care about immigration as much as the fact people have retarded views and negative connotation towards immigrants.

WRONG...

people have very logical and rational connotations towards ILLEGAL immigrants..

I know you would like to make this argument about something that is noble to fight for, but the simple fact is, this debate is about CRIMINALS. Period..

No amount of elitest, bleeding heart liberalism will change that ONE fact...

It gives me great pleasure talking with people like this in Canada - after they've done their anti-immigrant rant I point out to them that I am an immigrant.

But you are not an ILLEGAL immigrant..

That one little difference makes ALL the difference...

That usually quietens down their anti-immigration ranting considerably ;)

Well, I can't speak to that because I wasn't there..

All I know is that THIS discussion in the here and now is NOT about immigrants..

It's about ILLEGAL immigrants. Criminals...

Period....

As far as the key details of Rubio's plan..

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/04/23/immigration-will-continue-to-benefit-all-americans/

It's FoxNews I know.. But hold your nose and read all about it.. :D

Michale

Lol there is literally no scenario in which enfranchising people is a bad thing. Not one. Democracy is democracy. If someone is fulfilling their obligations to society then that society owes them the chance to partake in democracy.

If 1m red-necks who are lunatic right-wingers want to vote for a lunatic right-wing party that is their right to do so. I would probably respond by leaving that area not disenfranchising them and trying to oppose the will of the minority on the majority - which is what Republican tactics are trying to do.

Other than that one little minor detail of it being against the law..

Right and some people didn't have the choice to obey the law. They were brought to the US illegally by their parents as small children. Can you imagine being told 'you are illegal' through no fault of your own? You grow up, work hard but are denied the basic rights that your peers have. And now one party wants to continue denying you your rights because, rather than change their policies so that they have a message in line with the MAJORITY OF PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY they'd rather just deny a bunch of people the vote and get their minority backed positions through that way.

Btw Latinos are Catholic, pro-life people. If Republicans weren't such whack-jobs and anti-minority they would do very well in the Latino vote.

But, since we're on the subject, what do you think about Rubio's immigration plan?

Haven't really looked at the details. Outline the key points here if you like...

I only care about immigration as much as the fact people have retarded views and negative connotation towards immigrants. Some of them are sub-consciously based on race. It gives me great pleasure talking with people like this in Canada - after they've done their anti-immigrant rant I point out to them that I am an immigrant. Usually the response is 'you're ok though'. Lol. So it has nothing to do with race but as a white male who speaks English 'I'm ok'. That usually quietens down their anti-immigration ranting considerably ;)

But, since we're on the subject, what do you think about Rubio's immigration plan??

Michale

Other than that one little minor detail of it being against the law..

Denying these people - who are effectively US citizens in everything but name - the vote is denying them their right to life in a fair and democratic country.

Other than the fact that it's against the law...

If they want so bad the right to vote, let them take steps to do it legally...

NO ONE can be disenfranchised w/o tacit approval..

Michale

I bet you would sing a different tune if a couple million redneck American Right Wingers headed up into your neck of the woods and voted for a candidate that you despised and that candidate won..

I bet you would be singing a different "Enfranchising Is A GOOD Thing" tune then, eh??

"What kind of city doesn't have a SINGLE gun store!?"
"Maybe they're Canadian."
-STARGATE: UNIVERSE

:D

Michale

So, you wouldn't have a problem with Republicans rounding up 11 million people from around the world and send them into the voting booth to vote GOP??

Uhm if they lived in, worked in and contributed to American society not a problem in the slightest. As long as they were given free reigns to vote for whomever they wanted to. This is pretty much how a democracy works lol.

The right for CITIZENS to vote is a cornerstone of any democracy...

But we are NOT talking about citizens, are we??

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then what is it? People born in America, who have spent their whole lives in America, who work hard for America, who have served in the military for America, went to school in America etc etc etc. Denying these people - who are effectively US citizens in everything but name - the vote is denying them their right to life in a fair and democratic country.

To be honest I believe certain Permanent Residents should also have the right to vote in a country they live in and pay taxes in. But that's a whole different argument...

"I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the very blanket of freedom that I provide and the QUESTIONS the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just say 'thank you' and go on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. EITHER WAY, I DON'T GIVE A DAMN WHAT YOU THINK YOU ARE ENTITLED TO!!!"
Colonel Nathan R Jessup
Commander, Ground Forces
Guantanamo Bay, Cuba
A FEW GOOD MEN

:D

Michale

When it's done illegally for the sole purpose of winning an election??

How is it any different???

Franchising is a GOOD thing, almost always;

Really??

So, you wouldn't have a problem with Republicans rounding up 11 million people from around the world and send them into the voting booth to vote GOP??

Somehow, I doubt you would accept that so blithely...

You know that the right to vote is a cornerstone of any democracy?

Wrong...

The right for CITIZENS to vote is a cornerstone of any democracy...

But we are NOT talking about citizens, are we??

Liz,

I haven't enough time, not to mention zero inclination, to correct all your mistaken assertions.

Then I guess they will just have to stand as fact until proven otherwise.. :D

Michale

I haven't enough time, not to mention zero inclination, to correct all your mistaken assertions.

Franchising is a GOOD thing, almost always; disenfranchising is a BAD thing almost always. To act like they are comparable is ludicrous. You know that the right to vote is a cornerstone of any democracy?

By all means, feel free to correct me..

But when you say that it's too much of a stretch to think that Democrats are as bad as Republicans then, logically, how I summed it up is perfectly accurate..

Par for the course? Heh.

Have any of ya'all actually READ the Rubio Immigration plan???

If so, what exactly is wrong with it??

Besides it comes from a Republican, I mean...

Michale

Par for the course? Heh.

So, in other words, Democrats are goodness and light and Republicans are evil incarnate...

"Well, aww right.."
-Adam Sandler, BILLY MADISON

:D

Michale

Absolutely, positively, unequivocally!

Is there ANY evidence whatsoever that Democrats are taking this action because they genuinely CARE about immigrants??

None whatsoever...

Or, put another way...

Ya'all have absolutely NO problem believing that Republicans are disenfranchising voters to further their own partisan agenda...

Is it truly such a stretch that Democrats would illegally enfranchise illegal voters for the same reason??

Michale

Where are the moderators around here when you need them? Heh.

What do you think about the idea that supporting this bill could cost Rubio the Republican Primaries come 2015-16 as it will lose him the fanatical lunatic base?

That is solely, completely and unequivocally why Democrats are championing illegal immigrant amnesty..

The power-mongering is perverse and disgusting..

Michale