You've firmly supported just about every right wing piece of nutjobia from Obama's birth certificate to Benghazi to Herman Cain to the poor are poor because they're lazy (Romney's 47% comment).

You may have yourself convinced, but your history seems to argue otherwise.

-David

This is ridiculous.

Bad decisions are bad decisions.

And a philosophy that leads to bad decisions is a bad philosophy.

And when its clear that one side makes more bad decisions than the other because of their philosophy, they don't deserve additional credit.

When one side has led us into 2 worthless, costly wars and wrecked our economy and continues to recommend the same philosophy, I'm sorry, but that side deserves what the public thinks about them.

Weighting things purely based on a silly 50/50 calculation is ridiculous. It would be like comparing Herbert Hoover and Abraham Lincoln and saying you have to say 50% good about each of them.

Should we have to say equal good things and bad things about everyone?

Despite how poorly they perform? Are you one of those people who think everyone should get an 'A' in school?

-David

Which isn't to say that I think ya'all are fanatical religious nuts. :D

But let's face facts.. Ya'all are extremely biased in favor of Democrats to the exclusion of reality...

:D

Michale

Because ya'all refuse to accept what the REAL problem is...

I might as well be debating with fanatical religious nuts about the existence of god...

There can't be any meaningful discussion as long as ya'alls argument is based on faith and not facts..

Michale

The hell it don't...

The facts support my position that politicians are equally bad..

It's only blind faith, ideological servitude and emotionalism that supports ya'alls argument that Democrats are better than Republicans...

Which is why we can never have a real discussion about how to FIX the problems.

Because ya'all refuse to accept what the REAL problem is...

Michale

No. I see a serious fudging of data.

To use your nomenclature:

MICHALE:

Denigrates Democrats

=========================

Denigrates Republicans

==

RANK AND FILE WEIGANTIANS:

Denigrates Democrats

==

Denigrates Republicans

============================

Liberal blogs:

Denigrates Republicans

=============================================

Conservative blogs:

Denigrates Democrats

===================================================

I see you slamming republicans in an exception makes the rule frequency. Saying their all equally bad doesn't count...

It would only be fair if it was compared to how much ya'all praise Democrats and denigrate Republicans..

So, let's graph it out...

MICHALE:

Denigrates Democrats
=============================================

Denigrates Republicans
=============================

RANK AND FILE WEIGANTIANS:
Denigrates Republicans
=========================================================

Denigrates Democrats
=

You see the point??

When ya'alls graph on slamming Democrats come CLOSE to my graph on slamming Republicans, you MIGHT have an argument..

Until then?? You don't...

Michale

Not so fast. How about a little comparison of the amount you denigrate Obama or the Democrats verses how much you denigrate republicans? I see long diatribes about the left and measly "well they do it too" mentions about the right. How is it exactly you are not just as guilty as those you accuse?

Marco Rubio and his infamous sip of water...

And for THAT, I just had to reach back a couple days..

Should I go further or do you see the point??

Michale

If political affiliation was a protected class and we were all employers and our Weigantian leanings translated into our hiring practices, ya'all would be guilty of discrimination and I would not be...

Well, to be fair, I would likely be as well, but to a MUCH lesser extent than ya'all...

Try as ya'all might, it simply cannot be denied that I am MUCH less of a partisan than ya'all...

Like I said above, when ya'all start slamming the Left as much as I slam the Right, then ya might have a point..

But not until...

Michale
MFCCFL

Yes, towards each other, sure...

But respectful of Boehner??? Ryan?? Rand?? Limbaugh???

Shirley, you jest...

Didn't you just recently call McCain a "d-bag"???

If THAT is what you mean by "respectful" I would HATE to see what you call "nasty"... :D

Michale

... by denigrating and blaming Republicans...

Do I honestly need to point out where???

This is like the time ya'all claim that Democrats don't have a spending problem..

Or like the time you claimed we should totally defund the US Military...

I think yer just funnin' with me... :D

Michale

It would be a lot simpler and faster if I just point out the times ya'all DON'T denigrate Republicans....

...............

Michale

-David

Maybe this would help me understand.

Chris could speak to this better than I, but I don't think this is very accurate.

What I get out of Chris' site are viewpoints that you don't hear in the more corporate mainstream media. Especially historical perspectives (which I think are Chris' specialty.)

This is simply because the type of writing Chris does is not typically "if it bleeds, it leads" type stories.

From the FTP column specifically, Chris discusses how to position and fight for liberal principles in very concise terms.

I really don't see much "denigration" here. Everyone seems pretty respectful.

-David

OK, that's not entirely accurate..

But it's accurate to say that THAT is the reason for the existence of the FTPs...

Michale

Yet I am unique in that regard amongst Weigantians..

The rank and file Weigantians say, "The sun WON'T rise tomorrow, but the MOON will..."

I'm not denigrating either Republicans or Democrats.

Oh come on, David! I may have been born at night, but it wasn't LAST night.

The entire raison d'être for CW.COM IS to denigrate Republicans and cheer on Democrats...

I'm arguing that offering more tax breaks to the rich is a terrible idea.

Yet you ONLY blame Republicans for it and give Democrats a pass over it..

Slam the Democrats for doing the same thing you accuse the Republicans of doing...

"You don't know the power of the Dark Side"

:D

Michale

They can't be contradictory if you don't have any :)

Ok. You hold all politicians in disdain. Wow. That's bold. That's like saying "I believe the sun will rise tomorrow".

Or like saying "politicians = politicians".

Ok. You win. You've finally chosen a position so bland that hardly anyone will argue with you.

Now you can bitch away forever and ever uselessly. Good for you!

Do you denigrate Democrats as much as I denigrate Republicans?

I'm not denigrating either Republicans or Democrats.

I'm arguing that offering more tax breaks to the rich is a terrible idea. It's odd though that you seem to see this (or just about any positional argument for that matter) as an "attack".

-David

My principles are fine, thank you very much.. :D

But if you find any of my principles contradicting, by all means. Do tell.. :D

Why don't you put your principles on the table and let's go. Quit hiding behind meaningless name calling.

See above.. :D

"My soul is prepared, Dr Jones. How's yours?"
-Hakim, INDIANA JONES AND THE LAST CRUSADE

:D

The principle I believe in is fair taxation.

Apparently not. Because you don't cry foul when Corporate Interests who support Democrats skate..

You don't cry foul when 1% Democrats have Cayman Island accounts....

In short, you don't hold Democrats to the same standards that you hold Republicans.

That is anything but "fair"...

The difference between you and I is that I hold ALL politicians in disdain, regardless of Party..

You only cap on Republicans...

Don't believe me??

Do you denigrate Democrats as much as I denigrate Republicans??

Does ANYONE here??

Nope...

Michale

I am simply pointing out the illogic of ya'all's arguments against the Right.

I thought you wanted people to be more principled? How come you aren't talking about your principles lately?

Interestingly enough, conservatives aren't either.

Why don't you put your principles on the table and let's go. Quit hiding behind meaningless name calling.

I never thought I'd say this but it seems quite cowardly. At least in the old days you'd come out swinging. If you say you believe in principles, let's see some.

The principle I believe in is fair taxation.

-David

OK, I've just got to take mercy on you. If you're looking for any sort of "Dems do it too" parallel about "attacking one's own" or a "circular firing squad," there is one and ONLY one obvious choice from the Obama inner circle (and it ain't Plouffe):

Rahm Emanuel.

Yea, yer right. Rahm is a MUCH better example of a Leftist Rove than Plouffe.

Danke.. :D

Michale....

OK, I've just got to take mercy on you. If you're looking for any sort of "Dems do it too" parallel about "attacking one's own" or a "circular firing squad," there is one and ONLY one obvious choice from the Obama inner circle (and it ain't Plouffe):

Rahm Emanuel.

Just do a search on what I've had to say about ol' Rahm here on this site. You'll find plenty of rhetorical ammo. Don't believe I've ever called him a Nazi, but then again I don't normally do that sort of thing to anybody....

You're welcome.

[Yes, I'm still annoyed about the whole "fucking retarded" comment... there's another good one to search.]

-CW

schadenfreude

Couldn't have happened to a more appropriate guy.

-CW

"Michale is an arrogant and loud mouth blowhard...

David is a thoughtful and intelligent person."

Oh, you just know I'm going to save that gem up so I can use it as an example of "why quoting people out of context is a bad thing" in the future, right?

Heh.

db -

Goebbels... OK, I can see it...

Heh heh.

Two things: One, Rove is just following a path laid down by Lee Atwater (who had a deathbed conversion and recounted all the ugly tactics he had ever used, whether you believe him or not). Two, has anyone else read Kurt Vonnegut Jr.'s "Mother Night"? Seems appropriate. Where IS that Fairy Blue Godmother when you need it?

akadjian -

I agree totally. Never thought I'd see the day when Right-wingers portrayed Karl Rove as a Reichsführer. Will wonders never cease.

Heh. Heh heh.

-CW

And Democrats don't???

When you can show me a Republican with a realistic solution that would end tax breaks for the wealthy, instead of giving them more breaks, I might buy it.

ANd when you can show me a realistic solution from the Democrats, then *I* might buy it..

But things are WORSE under Obama and the Democrats.. Not better..

Democrats have had their shot..

And they made things worse...

Sure, you can cherry pick a fact here and there... But looking at the big picture, we're in a tailspin..

Deficit is up to 16 TRILLION dollars...

Gas prices are going thru the roof...

And yet ya'all STILL believe that the Democrat way is the correct way, despite ALL the evidence to the contrary...

The Republicans may not have the right way..

But you simply CANNOT say that the Democrat way is any better....

Michale

Because it's the ONLY explanation that fits the facts...

What else explains the Left still supporting Obama when he is more Bush than Bush when it comes to CT policies??

What else explains the Left still supporting Obama and the Democrats when it comes to protecting and being in bed with Corporate Interests..

About the *ONLY* thing Democrats have going for them is that they can talk the talk..

But when it comes to walking the walk, they are no different than Republicans..

Ergo, since Democrats *ARE* no different than Republicans, the ONLY explanation that fits the facts is that the support still given to Democrats comes from ideological loyalty...

And, for the record, it's NOT an accusation. I completely and unequivocally understand the WHY... At times, I almost envy that ya'all have something that ya'all believe in so strongly, to the exclusion of all else...

That kind of faith is heart-warming..

But to deny that it exists is simply to deny reality...

Is that because it's really hard to argue for giving corporations more tax breaks?

I am not arguing for ANY ideological position..

I am simply pointing out the illogic of ya'all's arguments against the Right...

They are illogical because the Left is no different than the Right with regards to the arguments you are making..

Michale

Yes.

Basically it comes down to choosing between one's principles and one's ideological loyalty

Let's look at the issue you brought up with Facebook.

The issue is ... corporations getting huge tax breaks.

If that's the issue, what are a few of the more basic options?

One, stop giving them more tax breaks.
Two, tax them at a similar percentage as ordinary people. Return corporate rates to the Clinton year rates.
Three, give them more tax breaks.

I simply disagree with option 3 (which also happens to be the Republican Party platform)

You can spin it as "ideological loyalty" all you want, Michale, but if the issue is companies like Facebook exploiting corporate tax loopholes, it would be insane to argue for bigger tax breaks.

The principle is one of equal taxation.

Is this your new favorite tactic btw? You seem to be using it a lot. Accusing people of "ideological loyalty"?

Is that because it's really hard to argue for giving corporations more tax breaks?

-David

Hypothtetically....

"Michale is an arrogant and loud mouth blowhard...

David is a thoughtful and intelligent person."

A typical Weigantian would say, "I am not slamming Michale, I am just pointing out the differences"

But would that REALLY be accurate?? :D

And yeah, the Facebook issue makes me angry too.

So tell me how the Republican party would fix this? The only answer I've seen from them is, let's give even more tax breaks to multinational corporations.

I don't know, I don't care and it's not my point...

My point is you accuse the Republicans of being in bed with Corporate Interests..

Yet, I can PROVE to you that Democrats are JUST as in bed with Corporate Interests as Republicans...

So, why slam JUST the GOP for it and give the DEMs a pass??

The Republican party currently offers no solutions to fix any of the issues you describe.

And the only "solutions" offered by the Democratic Party makes things tons worse...

All told, I would prefer nothing to worse...

So why would conservatives complain about Facebook not paying taxes when not paying taxes is the corporate conservative wet f*cking dream?

That's not the question..

The question is why does the rank and file Left still support Democrats who are just as enamored and ensnared by Corporate Interests as the Left accuses the Republican Party of being??

Basically it comes down to choosing between one's principles and one's ideological loyalty...

I simply maintain that we need a LOT less of the latter and a LOT more of the former...

Wouldn't you agree???

Michale

Beyond that, Bashi, it's just batshit insane.

Why?

Because conservatives are 100% for giving companies like Facebook larger tax breaks.

It's their entire platform.

Don't believe me, here's Rob Portman (almost Romney's running mate) pitching his platform to lower the corporate tax rate from 35% to 25%

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2013302190025&gcheck=1

So why would conservatives complain about Facebook not paying taxes when not paying taxes is the corporate conservative wet f*cking dream?

-David

I can tell... you might try reading the article and doing a bit of follow up research. First, this story broke last May when facebook did it's IPO. I guess it wasn't sexy enough for the conservative blogs then? What has changed? Second, facebook has a political PAC. It contributed a little bit more to republicans than democrats and none to either presidential candidates. Third, three Senators, all democrats, offered a bill to fix the loophole but it died in committee. Not sure why.

Problem, yes. But to try and pin it on the democrats or make an allusion that the democrats are more or equally to blame is political mud slinging. What was that about the left and right doing the same things? Guess the independents and NGO's are just as bad...

The Republican party currently offers no solutions to fix any of the issues you describe.

So all they do right now is lob negative bombs. That's it.

When you can show me a Republican with a realistic solution that would end tax breaks for the wealthy, instead of giving them more breaks, I might buy it.

-David

-David

Sorry, db. My bad on the attribution.

I'll stand by my position that Rove is no Goebbels though.

Does he produce propaganda? Yes, I'd buy that. Is he producing it for the Nazi party? No.

There isn't a slam or attack that can be thrown at the Right that can't ALSO be thrown at the Left.

Who's 'slamming' the Right?

I'm simply pointing out differences. Which it looks like 'No positive message' isn't even in dispute.

And yeah, the Facebook issue makes me angry too.

So tell me how the Republican party would fix this? The only answer I've seen from them is, let's give even more tax breaks to multinational corporations.

Can you tell me how more tax breaks is going to fix issues like Facebook not paying taxes?

Say what you will, but Dems aren't proposing more tax handouts to the wealthy.

-David

The Rove/Goebbels comparison was mine, not Michale's. I will stand by it though as Rove of Minister of Propaganda strikes me as the role he played in getting George Bush elected President twice.

And that says it all...

Obama and the Democrats seem to be more concerned about their politics rather than the welfare of the country....

The fact that Republicans are the same way does NOT mitigate the responsibility shared by Obama and the Democrats..

Michale

If THAT is not "in bed with Corporate Interests", nothing is!

Michale

Left wing groups have demanded impeachment of Obama??

Do tell!! :D

Irregardless, my point would simply refer back to Yarnek's quote, paraphrased...

"Your {Democrats} and your {Republicans} use the same methods to achieve the same goals"

Michale

Obama and the Left are ALL about fear-mongering..

GOP "war on women"...

Climate change is going to destroy the planet.

Romney gave a woman cancer.

Romney is a felon.

etc etc etc ad nasuem...

Of course, you don't see it because you agree with the message...

3) The amount of hubris- Remember how he was so convinced of his power that he couldn't believe the results on election night?

You mean like Obama saying that the majority of Americans are for gun bans and the majority of Americans are for ObamaCare???

4) Strength of relationship with corporate interests

I don't even have to break a sweat for this one..

Even though Facebook (FB) reported $1.1 billion in pre-tax profits from U.S. operations in 2012, it will probably pay zero federal and state taxes—and even receive a federal tax refund of about $429 million—according to a Feb. 14 statement from Citizens for Tax Justice.
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-02-15/facebook-gets-a-multi-billion-dollar-tax-break

Like I always say..

There isn't a slam or attack that can be thrown at the Right that can't ALSO be thrown at the Left...

Michale.....

Not really..

The only difference is the ideology...

Every "thought" on Rove could easily be applied to Team Obama... Each and every one...

Michale

While I think I know where you're coming from, I'd have to say I still see some pretty significant differences.

A couple thoughts on Rove ...
1) No positive message
2) The exclusive use of fear and paranoia (see #1)
3) The amount of hubris- Remember how he was so convinced of his power that he couldn't believe the results on election night?
4) Strength of relationship with corporate interests

He's no Goebbels, Michale. There are some distinct differences, however, between the approaches of a Rove and a Plouffe.

-David

Is your point that the Tea Party turning on Rove (or vice versa) is the equivalent of the Left Wing Groups demanding the impeachment of President Obama over the drone issue?

The ultimate question, I'd suggest, is unanswerable; did Romney lose more votes (by lack of voting, enthusiasm, or whatever) by being conciliatory to the Socialist Muslim Marxist than he gained by his "move to the center"?

David,

Goebbels, the Minister of Propaganda, is a better fit than Hitler and, frankly, I saw the picture more that way than as Hitler personally.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRpAANsoG8I

I never thought I'd see Rove portrayed as Hitler though.

-David

Besides Rove being "better" (or worse, depending on your political leanings) at it??

As one who holds BOTH political Partys in disdain, I fail to see any difference...

Of course, STAR TREK provides the wisdom as it usually does..

"Your Good and your Evil use the same methods to achieve the same goals."
-Yarnek, STAR TREK The Savage Curtain

Democrats and Republicans use the same methods to achieve the same goals...

One is no better nor worse than the other...

Michale.....