http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/02/06/skip-drone-debate-just-kill-terrorists-before-kill-us/

Iddn't it fascinating that ALL of Weigantia is on the same page of yours truly AND President Bush when it comes to Counter Terrorism policies??

:D

Michale

Fair enough. That was an unfair characterization. My apologies..

But the current situation leans more in favor of the illegal immigrants than it does in the security of the nation.

THAT needs to change..

Michale

i said no such thing. there has to be a reasonable middle ground somewhere in-between the hippie dream and the current travesty.

My point being that with unlimited and unrestricted immigration, which is what ya'all are running with, we are not in a position to keep the bad people out..

that sounds to me like increased efficiency, allocating resources to where they'll do society the most good.

Yes, it does "SOUND" like that..

But the reality is quite different, as has been well documented.

Google "Turn Back South" and you will discover what the numbers REALLY mean...

or maybe we should just give all the illegal immigrants some assault rifles...

If they pass background checks, sure... :D

Michale

Not so much...

oh come on, so much hyperbole. there is a HUGE difference between attempted terrorism and run of the mill illegal immigration. i think anyone caught plotting a terror attack would certainly not be allowed to hang around and plot again. what the article said was:

"Mr. Obama’s first four years were characterized by record deportations of aliens with criminal records, but fewer rank-and-file illegal immigrants being deported."

that sounds to me like increased efficiency, allocating resources to where they'll do society the most good. maybe it's helped and maybe not, but it certainly doesn't read like a bad policy. just because they're not deporting non-felons, doesn't mean they're not also trying to catch the really bad guys. the fact is that the bush era policy didn't catch those guys, and now we're criticizing the obama administration for some far-flung hypothetical? come on michale, you can do better than that, can't you?

ICE ex-chief: Nondeport rules would’ve spared 9/11 hijackers
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/feb/4/ice-ex-chief-nondeport-rules-wouldve-spared-911-hi/

This is exactly the problem I mentioned....

"Give us your poor your tired your huddled masses" was a nice sentiment..

But in the age of terrorism.....

Not so much...

Michale

So, frak it...

Let's just have a beer... :D

Michale

yup, pretty much. we've been there for a decade already. righties are just noticing now, and lefties somehow seem to keep thinking we've left.

Perhaps..

But I would like to see what would happen to our government if they tried to violate the provisions set forth in the Declaration Of Independence...

On the other hand:

EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americans
http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/04/16843014-exclusive-justice-department-memo-reveals-legal-case-for-drone-strikes-on-americans?lite

Maybe we're already there....

Michale

incorrect. the declaration of independence was written prior to the constitution, and as such has no current legal standing. as one of our founding documents it certainly has moral and ethical standing, but legally it is no more binding upon today's government than the poem at the base of the statue of liberty.

Not really..

Those rights are spelled out in our Declaration Of Independence and, as such, not only has the power of law, but IS the law...

One of the great things about being an American..

As any LEGAL immigrant will tell you...

Michale

Maybe a hundred years ago...

But, considering the DANGERS of unrestrained immigration in the here and now....

Not so much....

Even with all of our flaws, there isn't a country in the world that can hold a candle to the generosity of the US's immigration laws..

Michale...

But it lacks the force of law...

so do the rights to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, but they're still considered to be fundamental values upon which our society is based. we call ourselves a nation of immigrants. fair and just immigration is not just the right thing to do, it's fundamental for our country's existence.

--emma lazarus - graven in the pedestal of the statue of liberty

It's a nice sentiment...

But it lacks the force of law...

You seem to be making the argument, "Because it's the right thing to do.."

That argument DOES have merit...

But it also applies to taking out Saddam Hussein...

Destroying the Taliban..

Killing terrorists and those who support them..

All actions that the Left decries and vilifies...

In other words, you don't get to have your cake and eat it too...

If you accept that the US is the world's welfare agency, then you MUST accept that the US is the world's police force..

Michale

Where does it say that the US has to allow ANY immigration at all???

Right here:

http://www.libertystatepark.com/emma.htm

"Give me your tired, your poor,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

--emma lazarus - graven in the pedestal of the statue of liberty

Yea, and don't think I didn't notice that this article comes from the bastion of the Liberal MSM, NBC.... :D

Michale

Anyways.... A new White Paper has been leaked from the DOJ that makes the Yoo memos look like nothing...

EXCLUSIVE: Justice Department memo reveals legal case for drone strikes on Americans
http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/04/16843014-exclusive-justice-department-memo-reveals-legal-case-for-drone-strikes-on-americans?lite

I wonder how those in Wegantia and the Lefty blogosphere will respond to this...

My guess is one big snooze-fest with a health dose of...

{{{cchhhhiiiirrrrrppppppp}}} {chiirrrrp}

... thrown in.

Ya wanna know why I am excited about having a GOP President back in the White House??

It will be fun watching the Left do ANOTHER 180 about the whole CT policies issue and start screaming "WAR CRIMINAL!!!" hysterically again...

:D

Michale

Remember how here in Weigantia and across the Leftist blogosphere, how everyone went positively hysterical over the John Yoo memos??

I think there was even talk of disbarring Yoo and trying him as a war criminal..

unless you have a special skill or a friend in high places, you'd have to apply ahead of time for your great grandchildren. an unequal chance is one thing, but no chance in hades is something entirely different.

But WHY is it unjust??

Where does it say that the US must tailor it's immigration laws to make it EASIER for people to immigrate??

Where does it say that the US has to allow ANY immigration at all???

It's not the US's fault that some dirt farmer in Bumfuq, Egypt was born there..

Ya'all go on and on against the US being the world's Police Force, yet ya'all seem to be perfectly comfortable with the idea that the US should be the world's welfare agency...

Don'tcha think it's a bit contradictory??

LD,

I'm talking about genocidal actions undertaken by the United States that we apparently feel absolutely no need feel guilty about, much less, compensate victims descendants for.

I know I am going to regret this, but...

Why should victims' DESCENDANTS be compensated?? What have THEY done or what has been done to THEM to deserve compensation??

Institutionalized racism against black people is dead. It died when we elected a black president. If you can find an instance of institutionalized racism against black people, by all means. Point it out. There is institutionalized racism against white people up the wazoo... But against black people?? None exists any more.

NO ONE deserves ANY kind of compensation for what was not done to them personally.

In the case of Israel, it is STILL threatened. There is STILL a good possibility of ANOTHER Holocaust. Hence the consideration received by Israel is still valid and logical.

In the case of Cuba, it's citizens are STILL being persecuted. The problem that produced the Feet Dry policy is STILL ongoing. Ergo, the policy is still just and valid...

CW,

Good question. If Cubans cease being persecuted in their homeland, there won't be any need for the Feet Dry policy..

Of course, Cuban-Americans will raise holy hell. Just like black Americans raise holy hell when any one talks about eliminating affirmative action..

Their response is logical even if the issue is not...

It will be fascinating to watch, should it occur in my lifetime. While it's not Bucket List material, it still will be pretty awesome to witness...

Michale

His brother Raul already seems to be moving Cuba to a much more open society, and once Fidel dies off perhaps they'll modernize to the point that the US can normalize relations.

All that is just the premise. The question is: what happens to Cuban immigration policy at that point? Of course, the logical answer to that is "policy changes so Cuba is treated just like any other Caribbean nation."

But what would it mean politically? It would be interesting to see how Senators Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio reacted, that's for sure. Because I predict that there'll be an outcry from the Cuban-American community should anyone suggest that it's time for their preferential status to be over. And both Rubio and Cruz are Cuban-Americans.

Florida would once again become very contentious political territory, that's for certain. But what would the outcome be? Food for thought....

-CW

If guilt is the criteria for preferential treatment this country has a hell of a lot more to feel guilty about much closer to home. And I'm not talking about 20/20 hindsight regarding inaction in the defense of others either. I'm talking about genocidal actions undertaken by the United States that we apparently feel absolutely no need feel guilty about, much less, compensate victims descendants for.

i thought i had told you how. i provided multiple links in any case. they take an arbitrary number and divide it equally by country, regardless of that country's size or their quantity of desired immigrants. that is better than the system that existed beforehand (no diversity, europeans only) but it still makes legal immigration from the highest demand areas nigh on impossible. unless you have a special skill or a friend in high places, you'd have to apply ahead of time for your great grandchildren. an unequal chance is one thing, but no chance in hades is something entirely different.

The US stood by and did NOTHING to prevent the wholesale slaughter of MILLIONS of innocent Jews...

In my book, that is as "valid" as it gets...

The only reason the "line" is so long for Mexicans is we have laws to arbitrarily limit their numbers. That is not fair or just.

I honestly don't know how the numbers are determined, therefore I cannot comment on whether the process is "just" or not..

In the absence of evidence to the contrary (which I *did* solicit, by the bi..), I am going to go with faith...

Yea, I am shocked too! :D

Michale

Which is, in NO way, any comparison of the *magnitude* of the two incidents..

There IS no comparison, magnitude-wise...

Michale

Why is it "valid?" What need have we of Israelis to immigrate and what overriding need have they to emigrate? And the only Cubans we "owed" anything were the ones we misled into rebelling, not every Cuban ever born.

The only reason the "line" is so long for Mexicans is we have laws to arbitrarily limit their numbers. That is not fair or just. Even treating every country "equal" with regard to quotas isn't fair or just. Countries aren't trying to immigrate, individuals are. Unless the rules are the same for every individual they are not fair or just.

I am also constrained to point out that the consideration that the US gives to Israel is still valid and logical as well..

And THAT happened a much longer time ago than the incident that prompts the Cuban consideration..

Michale

Perhaps...

And yet, the Cuban community still pressures their Congress Critters to maintain the status quo..

Apparently, it's important to somebody...

Michale

no, the reasons behind it WERE logical and valid in 1965. now they are antiquated and largely irrelevant.

In other words, it's not the "WHAT" that is important, it's the "WHY"...

to vote republican? seriously, i live and teach in a mostly cuban neighborhood, and in 2013 they're no different from any other class of immigrant. maybe there were political reasons for things to be different forty years ago, but most of the people who come over at this point are indifferent to the castro regime - their reasons for being here are the same as any other immigrants, and their unequal status is due to the socio-economic class of their forebears.

You seem to be making the case that Leftys hire illegals to support them...

I think it's more likely that Leftys hire illegals for the same reason that Rightys hire illegals..

the two reasons aren't mutually exclusive. my point was that hiring illegals doesn't go against the professed lefty belief system, while it does go against the professed righty belief system. for the left it's mutual consensual criminal exploitation; for the right it's criminal exploitation on the one hand and scorn for the immigrants' criminality on the other.

~joshua

You seem to be making the case that Leftys hire illegals to support them...

I think it's more likely that Leftys hire illegals for the same reason that Rightys hire illegals..

Quality work really REALLY cheap... :D

Let's face it. One of the worst characteristics of the Politician (Left Or Right) is their innate desire to look out for their own best interests first and foremost..

yes, but just because they're not objective doesn't mean they're wrong. something quantitative from the article, the number of green cards per year, per country: 25,620. divide that into seven million illegal immigrants from mexico, and if everyone waited for legal status, it would take about 273 years to admit just the ones who were already here. if you wanted to immigrate from lichtenstein you could get a green card tomorrow. that's not just unfair, it's unjust.

No. It just unfair..

What are the reasons behind it??

Why is it easier for an immigrant from Lichenstein to get a green card than an immigrant from Mexico?

It's like the point of Cubans becoming Feet Dry..

While on the surface, it seems unjust, the reasons behind it are logical and valid...

In other words, it's not the "WHAT" that is important, it's the "WHY"...

Michale

true. however, as a fervent opponent of hypocrisy, i think you appreciate how the Lefties' willingness to hire illegals tends to be more consistent with their professed beliefs. it's one thing to hire an illegal when you profess to support their rights, another when you profess the desire for them all to self-deport.

But, by virtue of drawing the short straw, their claims are hardly objective...

yes, but just because they're not objective doesn't mean they're wrong. something quantitative from the article, the number of green cards per year, per country: 25,620. divide that into seven million illegal immigrants from mexico, and if everyone waited for legal status, it would take about 273 years to admit just the ones who were already here. if you wanted to immigrate from lichtenstein you could get a green card tomorrow. that's not just unfair, it's unjust.

I am 1000% in agreement with that..

But I am constrained to point out that those on the Left are as guilty as "mitt romney" for employing illegals...

as i demonstrated in an earlier post, even those immigrants who do go through the legal process find it to be immensely unfair. or as Mae M. Ngai points out,

I am sure they do..

But as *I* demonstrated earlier, there are very logical and rational reasons for the disparity.

Those who draw the short straw ALWAYS claim that there is a disparity in fairness..

But, by virtue of drawing the short straw, their claims are hardly objective...

Michale.....

as are the people who employ them, such as mitt romney for example. until we prosecute the criminals who do the hiring as vigorously as the criminals who are hired, the enforcement in this country will continue to be unjust, and there will therefore be a rational defense for willful defiance of that injustice.

as i demonstrated in an earlier post, even those immigrants who do go through the legal process find it to be immensely unfair. or as Mae M. Ngai points out,

"it is easy to immigrate here from, say, Belgium or New Zealand, but there are long waits – sometimes decades – for applicants from China, India, Mexico and the Philippines. These four max out on the limit every year. When critics admonish prospective immigrants – as well as the 11 million plus undocumented migrants currently in America – to “go to the back of the line,” they should realize that for many people the line is a cruel joke."

http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/01/30/2644309/reform-immigration-first-recognize.html

No one appreciates the irony??

Com'on people! Yer slackin'!! :D

Michale

"Stewart. Don't agree with me. It just makes me doubt myself."
-Michael J Fox, SPIN CITY

:D

In the 1980s, there was a garage band in San Francisco who called themselves "Free Beer." They'd post signs up all over town reading "FREE BEER" with a date and venue. Of course, when folks showed up, there was no (literal) free beer, just a band by that name playing on the stage.

One has to wonder why there weren't any fatalities.. :D

Michale

Non-beer-related, I'm stunned you'd approve of both the talking points and the MIDOTW.

There's a quote I need to dig out... where is it...

OK, here we go. Andrew Jackson, speaking of an "opposition" newspaper (sorry for the choppy nature of the quote, cut and pasted from my own writing, where I had to fit it into a sentence):

"If such a corrupt press as the Richmond Enquirer," were ever to say a kind word about [Jackson], "I should think, in some unguarded moment, I had committed some great moral impropriety."

Translation, to modern terms:

"When Michale is wholeheartedly agreeing with me, I really need to sit down and figure out what the holy heck I'm doing wrong."

Heh.

:-)

-CW

OK, I really really like "DC-8". Short, sweet, to the point, and entirely fitting. Wasn't that the one they called the "Gooney Bird," now that I think about it? Hmmm....

Michale -

Here's something beer-related that if it isn't a crime, should be. Ahem.

In the 1980s, there was a garage band in San Francisco who called themselves "Free Beer." They'd post signs up all over town reading "FREE BEER" with a date and venue. Of course, when folks showed up, there was no (literal) free beer, just a band by that name playing on the stage.

There ought to be a law.

Heh.

-CW

Or when YOU have had a lot of beer??

i think the only rational solution is to test this question empirically. bottle-opener please...

You simply CAN'T freeload on beer.

Beer is a gift from the gods that MUST be shared far and wide!!

Buy me LOTS of beer! Michale's comments improve dramatically with enough beer!

My comments improve when *I* have had a lot of beer???

Or when YOU have had a lot of beer??

What the hell, I guess it doesn't matter, eh?? :D

Michale

no, buy ME a beer! i want to be a beer freeloader!

Attacking the commenter instead of the comment is the sign of a weak argument from an insecure mind..

But, what the hell. I'de still buy ya a beer.. :D

Or as i like to phrase it: Michale is an enigma wrapped in a straw man sliding down a slippery slope...

Ya know, David is always saying that this isn't about me..

Ya would never know it by all the comments.. :D

Let's face it..

I simply hold up a mirror to show how ya'alls arguments make little sense in the real world..

Ya'all are all about theory and utopian vision with very little common sense..

But, as I indicated, what the hell. I'de still buy ya a beer.. :D

Michale

Or as i like to phrase it: Michale is an enigma wrapped in a straw man sliding down a slippery slope...

Illegal immigrants are, in fact, criminals. That's what the "illegal" part of illegal immigrant means.

If I steal Obama's {sic} well deserved {sic} Nobel Peace Prize, does that make me a Nobel Peace Prize winner???

No.. It makes me a criminal...

Michale

"This is NOT an issue about immigrants..

This issue is solely and completely about ILLEGAL immigrants."

Illegal immigrants are, in fact, immigrants. That's what the "immigrants" part of "illegal immigrants" means.

"So, since the rich pay "sales tax" too, then they pay their fair share, right?? :D"

No. Since the rich pay "sales tax" too, no one's saying they "don't pay ANY of their share, fair or otherwise."

Reading Michale has become a graduate course in faulty logic, misrepresentation, and demagoguery. And I know for a fact, Michale, that you can do better, when not simply exercising your passion for trolling, without ever bothering to engage your brain.

Heh...

That'll learn ya!!! :D

Michale.....

Heh...

So, since the rich pay "sales tax" too, then they pay their fair share, right?? :D

Ya can't have it both ways.... It's against the rules... :D

Michale

Ah, your usual erroneous use of "fact". At one end you have illegal immigrants paying sales tax and other automatic taxes that come with good and services. At the other end you have illegal immigrants with fake papers paying state and federal income tax but never filing their taxes and getting any back. In the later case it's just the opposite, they pay in to the system but don't dare to try to get much back...

The Maids-a-Milking
The Eightfold They
The Capitol Hill Octopus
The Capitol Hill Spider
The DC-8 (usable up through 10, although I don't know how iconic the various McDonnell-Douglas aircraft are)

I'm not immediately coming up with any silly names based on immigration reform.

Yea, in today's uber-PC world, that wouldn't go over very well..

I still miss The Frito Bandito... :(

I can't believe politicians (of all people) are this mundane at creating a soundbite, so maybe we can do a better job. What do you say?

I'll let it percolate and get back to you.

To the other accolades being offered upon her exit from the State Department, we add a Most Impressive Democrat Of The Week for Hillary Rodham Clinton. Well done, Madam Secretary, well done indeed.

I have always admired Hillary. While she did take some well-deserved lumps for Benghazi and while I think she still hasn't come clean over that debacle, she still deserves the kudos and the MIDOTW...

I believe that, more often than not, a person is better than the worse thing they have ever done..

But if true, "disappointing" doesn't even begin to cover it.

Amen to that!!

What IS it about politicians (both Left *AND* Right) that think they are above the law???

Now ya'all know why I firmly believe that Left or Right doesn't matter.. Politicians in general, stink...

"We are a nation of immigrants. Let's all remember that.

No one, not one single person here or anywhere in the country has espoused a negative opinion against immigrants...

Let's be clear about this point right from the start.

This is NOT an issue about immigrants..

This issue is solely and completely about ILLEGAL immigrants.

Criminals who steal from this country, who take and take and take and give NOTHING back...

Criminals who live off the good will of hard-working Americans and their tax dollars. Freeloaders, house guests who eat people out of house and home and never leave..

That is SOLELY and COMPLETELY what this issue is about.

NO ONE has a problem with immigrants..

EVERY American SHOULD have a problem with ILLEGAL immigrants..

Ya'all are always going on and on about how the Rich doesn't pay "their fair share"...

How do ya'all reconcile such an attitude with the fact that illegals don't pay ANY of their share, fair or otherwise???

"I join with the president in calling for action on comprehensive immigration reform. The time, as the president said, is now. It is time for us, as he put it, to bring 11 million people living here 'out of the shadows' and into the light. Ask someone living in those shadows what it is like, and whether they'd pay a fine and wait to become full members of the American society. We will all benefit from getting rid of the shadow economy within our borders. Bring them into the light!"

I COMPLETELY agree.. Bring them into the light. Make them start paying their fair share..

Yes, immigrants not here legally have indeed committed a crime.

That's EXACTLY what I said!! And, again, I completely agree with this entire TP... Give illegals an opportunity to do the right thing..

If they refuse, then "afw'ein Mnhei'sahe"

"Under President Obama, it is undeniable that border enforcement has improved dramatically.

Gotta take issue with this one.

Border enforcement has NOT improved dramatically.

The only change at the border is the TBS option is more often imposed and creative accounting has replaced straight counting..

It's like the claim that we'll save a bunch of money by winding down the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan..

It's all just smoke and mirrors...

To get out of a hole, the first rule is always to stop digging.

Awww right, ya gotta quit taking my lines!! :D

"Republicans are going to attempt to water down any bill which appears out of bipartisan negotiations, both in the Senate and the House.

Time will tell..

It's entirely possible (even likely) that it will be DEMOCRATS who try to water down any bill so as to sabotage Republican's chances for a legislative win..

Such as it is in politics and with politicians, no??

All in all, this is an FTP that I can (more or less) completely and unequivocally get behind..

Been a while since we have had one of those, eh?? :D

Michale