Of course the stats are cherry picked. That's been my whole point.

The stats are meaningless because they can support BOTH arguments..

So, what's left??

Common sense..

And common sense dictates that you don't take the means of defense away from law-abiding citizens due to the actions of a few mental cases..

But I do agree with you that the anti-gun fanatics are their own worst enemy when it comes to their campaign..

And yes, there are a few pro-gun fanatics...

But the anti-gun crowd is COMPLETELY made of fanatics..

Do you know how we know this?

Because their ENTIRE argument is based in hysterical emotion. Which is why we only hear from them when there is a tragedy to capitalize on...

Michale

Blaming it on video games or movies or whatever nonsense the NRA is spewing on that particular day is hilarious. It's as if the rest of the world (eg. the UK) doesn't have violent movie games and movies. When in fact the reason why we can have these and not walk around shooting each other is because we don't have the supply of weapons to do so!

I think focusing on a single group to pattern legislation around is likely to miss other groups who have also committed these types of tragedies in the past and likely in the future. I'm not sure it's possible to stop. Just the price America has to accept for being a heavily armed society.

The US actually has a similar non-firearm homicide rate to the UK and Canada. But when you sort the 3 by firearm homicide rates it (again - completely coincidentally!) goes in the order of gun ownership/availability of guns. Kind of kills the 'but the criminals will have guns and go on a shooting spree' argument that you hear often...

I'm not sure how meaningful that is when the UK has an overall homicide rate that is almost double Switzerland's rate. Though still very low by American standards...

Also, the media loves to report high gun sales while completely ignoring the record numbers of guns that are handed in/bought back after mass shootings.

Probably somewhat true. Buy backs are usually local news rather than national. But I don't think the numbers are higher than total gun sales over the course of a year...

Or that the US and Switzerland are the only 2 Western countries that have a higher homicide rate from firearms than non-firearms.

COMPLETELY COINCIDENTALLY they are also no. (1) and (2) in rates of gun ownership among Western countries.

Also, the media loves to report high gun sales while completely ignoring the record numbers of guns that are handed in/bought back after mass shootings.

However, since they ARE fanatics, asking them to think logically and rationally is like asking the sun to rise in the west and set in the east...

Is the reverse true for the gun fanatics? Because as hysterical politics goes, the left, the right, or even our local hysterical independent/NGO comes even close to gun nuts. Obama get elected: BUY GUNS!!!. There is a large shooting in the news: BUY GUNS!!!. Obama gets re-elected: BUY GUNS!!!. Gun control is talked about: BUY GUNS!!!. Legislation is proposed: BUY GUNS!!!. Obama goes to the bathroom: BUY GUNS!!!.

Sometimes I think the gun manufactures must be large contributors to the democrats. Smith & Wesson sees it's sales slump a bit. Calls up their congressman, Hey Bob, sales are down a bit, mind proposing a gun control bill. No problem, James, happy to do it. BUY GUNS!!!

It's the main reason I would prefer the democrats to STFU about gun control. All it does grossly increase the number of guns in society.

But to the point, why don't you consider countries like Japan or Singapore that have very strong gun control and very low homicide rates?

Why don't you include countries like Colombia and Guatemala which do guarantee the right to own guns but have gun homicide rates two to three times Mexico?

When you list countries like Israel and Switzerland why do you fail to mention that though gun ownership is guaranteed by law the actual regulations of buying and keeping those guns are far more stringent than anything being proposed for the US?

And if you could show that our "gangs" are as prevalent and violent and in control throughout our nation as the cartels are in Mexico, then you would have a valid point.

But you can't, so you don't...

At the moment you are close to being right, The numbers of gang related gun violence is still quite high in America but the drug cartel violence in Mexico is higher. Only for the last few years though. Were you living under a rock during the 80's and 90's? Completely miss the Crips vs Bloods era followed by the rise of other competing gangs? If you look over the last 20 years, you will find drug related gun violence in America competes quite well with Mexico. Personally, I think the reduction of drug violence has more to do with effective law enforcement than gun ownership.

So, yes. Cherry picked.

Lololololololololololololol.

I'm organising an intervention. Your fact abuse has gone far enough.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/01/30/look-out-mr-obama-tax-revolt-has-begun-in-america-led-by-mickelson-woods/?intcmp=HPBucket

Geeee, who would have thunked that raising taxes would cause this??

Uhhhh Any logical and rational thinking human being...

Michale

True... I simply use the stats that Michty and David have used and point out that there could be MANY interpretations of those states.

Nevertheless, it stands as factual that many countries that have the largest gun ownership per capita also have some of the lowest gun violence in the world..

At the VERY least, it should cause the gun control fanatics to at least CONSIDER the possibility that guns are not the problem.

However, since they ARE fanatics, asking them to think logically and rationally is like asking the sun to rise in the west and set in the east...

We do have drug cartels in this country, we just happen to call them gangs.

And if you could show that our "gangs" are as prevalent and violent and in control throughout our nation as the cartels are in Mexico, then you would have a valid point.

But you can't, so you don't...

Mexico does have a "2nd amendment", it's called Article 10. Admittedly it was defanged in the 70's and is now limited to small caliber handguns. But "total gun ban" is definitely not a fact...

Bashi, you REALLY have to stop proving my points! :D It's my job, not yours.

You give a PERFECT reason why citizens should be allowed to carry the kinds of weapons that they might face in an armed enemy.

Many of the Gun Control faction make the claim that Mexico is an outlier because of all the cartel violence.

But what they fail to realize is that the Cartel violence is a DIRECT RESULT of the "de-fanging" of Mexico's Article 10 and the disarming of the general population.

It's very likely that, had the public NOT been disarmed, the cartels would never have been able to gain the control of the country that they now have..

An unarmed population is an enslaved population, at the mercy of any tyrannical government or criminal organization.

History is replete with such examples...

It's been asked here why would anyone need an "assault" rifle..

Mexico shows the PERFECT answer to such a question...

Michale

Cherry picked correlation does not prove causation.

We do have drug cartels in this country, we just happen to call them gangs. Mexico does have a "2nd amendment", it's called Article 10. Admittedly it was defanged in the 70's and is now limited to small caliber handguns. But "total gun ban" is definitely not a fact...

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/280129-white-house-republicans-responsible-for-gdp-shrink

It's ALL the Republicans fault..

Shit, *I* could write the Left's press releases...

It's always the same old crap..

Everything bad is the Republicans fault..

Everything good is because of Democrats...

Rinse, repeat ad nasuem....

Michale

Welcome to Obama and the Democrats idea of "recovery".....

Michale

That's ALL I have ever produced.

FACTS..

Of the two of us, who is more intimately familiar with guns and gun violence?

Who speaks from experience and who speaks from theory??

A gun ban will NEVER *EVER* pass Congress.. Even if it did, the vast majority of State and Local LEOs will NOT enforce the laws.. Many states are putting laws on the books that will cause the arrest of ANY Federal authority who attempts to enforce a gun ban..

There will NEVER be a gun ban in the United States.

Period.

So give it up.. It just will not happen..

You want to end mass shootings??

Then fight for ending mass shooting galleries, AKA Gun Free Zones...

Michale

Are you REALLY *THAT* blind and obtuse??

I don't think you know who the socialist President in my quotes is. I call him socialist because that's what he'd be by today's Republican standards. Back in the day (and even now) he was revered by Republicans and seen as a Republican God.

But when Obama proposes the exact same things: OMG THE EVIL SOCIALIST TYRANT IS COMING TO TAKE OUR GUNS. Just like how you react when Obama proposes the exact same extension of Unemployment Benefits that Mr Socialist President did.

I find it quite hilarious.

Why do you think that a gun ban has absolutely ZERO chance of passing??

The vast majority of American people are against it...

Wow. You finally presented a TRUE fact regarding guns! I am speechless!

Yet this SAME President didn't blink an eye when sending these weapons to Mexico..

Are you REALLY *THAT* blind and obtuse??

The problem isn't the guns...

Your OWN stats that you have thrown about SHOW that countries with high concentrations of gun owners per capita (Switzerland and Israel) have very low gun violence...

Countries that have virtual bans on guns have some of the highest gun violence in the world. Mexico for example...

You really need a new song and dance..

The idea that guns are the problem has been disproven by facts time and time again...

Why do you think that a gun ban has absolutely ZERO chance of passing??

The vast majority of American people are against it...

Michale

What amazes me is that people don't understand the logic used in this socialist President's statement: drying up the supply makes guns less accessible to criminals. Simple supply and demand. Simple logic.

If Mexicans had the 2nd Amendment, then it's likely THEY wouldn't have Drug Cartels either..

Michale

No it's not..

Because we have they 2nd Amendment and they have drug cartels...

All things being equal, I prefer our way better.. :D

Michale

I think the socialist lunatic President was right. So did Republicans at the time. Heck even the NRA advocated gun control before they were overhauled and overtaken by radical lunatic right-wing nut jobs.... Funnily enough the Republican party followed down this route a little while later...

Chicago.. Mexico... Washington DC etc etc etc...

The list is nearly endless...

Michale

Despite all evidence to the contrary...

Mexico comes to mind...

Michale

He also said "I do not believe in taking away the right of the citizen for sporting, for hunting and so forth, or for home defense. But I do believe that an AK-47, a machine gun, is not a sporting weapon or needed for defense of a home."

When will America learn to stop electing these lefty socialist Presidents.

If yer taking applications for next weeks MDDOTW award....

http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/01/29/3207543/fbi-raids-west-palm-beach-office.html

Michale

Remember...

Chicago has some of the strictest anti-gun laws in the world..

No Guns do not a safer place make..

A Gun Free Zone is simply a target rich environment for scumbags...

Michale

This is an opinion written by a LIBERAL!!

And again, I find it fascinating that there are people who still believe that the MSM is not in the bag for Obama and the Democrats..

Michale

4. ANY criminal record would be grounds for denial and said Illegal would be immediately DEported..

1. Illegal immigrants are given a "path" to citizenship..

2.First and foremost, must step forward and identify themselves as an illegal alien and consent to be placed on an ILLEGALS Database, that is available to all Federal State and Government sources.. At the time of this placement, illegals must take (and pass) a drug test and must provide proof of how long they have been illegally in this country.

2. A Tax Rate will be established and illegals will be required to pay all "back taxes" on any income that they earned starting from the day of their illegal entry to the US workforce.

3. If Illegals had fraudulent acquired any Public Assistance benefits during their time as an Illegal alien in this country, they would have to pay back said fraudulently obtained benefits.

4. ANY criminal record would be grounds for denial and said Illegal would be immediately reported.. In the instances of lesser crime that don't involved violence or drugs, the circumstances of the crime could be relevant to mitigation and/or extenuation.

5. ALL OF THE AFORE must be established and/or accomplished BEFORE) Illegals begin the process that every other immigrant must follow to be a citizen.. However, exceptions can be granted in the cases of back taxes/benefits owed whereas Illegals can start the legal immigration process concurrently with making the owed back-payments.

6. If it is discovered that an Illegal made false or mis-leading statements or commits crimes during the immigration process, their application will be summarily denied and Illegal would be deported immediately. As before, if the crimes don't rise to the seriousness of violence or drugs, then extenuating circumstances would be considered. Further, if Illegal falls x number of months behind on their back payments owed, w/o any good/verifiable reasons, then Illegal would have their application summarily denied that they would immediately deported.

7. If an Illegal re-enters illegally the country after having been deported. They would be given a choice. Such illegal entry would be considered a CLASS B Felony and a minimum sentence of 10 years in a federal prison. Or they can be deported again. If the Illegal is caught a 3rd time illegally in the country, it would be a CLASS A Felony and a minimum sentence of 20yrs in a federal prison would be imposed..

That's my Immigration Legislation..

What'chall think???

It gives a path to citizenship for those who are not lazy and not solely interested in just living off the public dole...

Personally, I think it's the best immigration plan that ANYONE (Left OR Right) has put forth..

But I might be a little biased. :D

Michale

... and ATTEMPTED to be used by Democrats..

Wha?? Do you think that Democrats, after threatening a filibuster, did some soul-searching and said, 'I guess we better not. It wouldn't be good for the country.'???

Or, is it MORE likely that Democrats can't keep their members together sufficiently to mount a successful filibuster..

Don't hate the GOP just because they are better at it than Democrats...

:D

Michale

http://jeffwinbush.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/robinvsbatmanpk2.gif

michty- Republicans reacting badly? Don't they do this no matter what?

I think Reid should have gone ahead and made them filibuster.

I think if they'd of reacted badly it would only have drawn attention to how much the filibuster has been abused by Republicans.

-David

"The presence of Obama even on the Press Corps. Even on the people who faun everyday when they're near him they lose their mind sometimes. You know they start behaving in ways that are juvenile and amateurish and they swoon"
-Michael Hastings, Journalist

Guess yer not the only one who swoons when thinking about Obama. :D

Michale

Where is your evidence to back up your bullpuckies claim??

Why else would there have to be a gun registration?

That any of these groups had enough firearms in their possession to matter?

Sure.

Got a time machine??

Jews and other groups unpopular with the government obviously excluded.

That's exactly the point. It was the Jewish people that were slaughtered...

In Tzarist Russia gun ownership was legal. This allowed the Bolsheviks to import enough firearms to make the Russian revolution possible...

Hello?? McFly!!!??

And what happened AFTER the Russian Revolution??

Guns were confiscated and made illegal and Stalin etc etc was able to slaughter MILLIONS of people because they had no means to resist..

But it's ironic. You make the best argument for lax gun laws and why the first step to a police state is gun registration..

Guns allowed the Bolsheviks to throw off the yoke of a tyrannical government.

Just like guns allowed this country to be born, throwing off the yoke of a tyrannical king..

Great argument, Bashi!! :D

But if you want to forget history (and, by default, be doomed to repeat it) let's look at the here and now..

Chicago.. Some of the most strict gun laws in the world.. It also has a violent crime rate that is thru the roof...

Washington DC.. Ditto on both counts..

Connecticut?? Some of the strictest gun laws in the country. Did those laws prevent Sandy Hook?? No, they did not..

Mexico. Total gun ban.. One of the most violent countries in the world with gun violence that is astronomically high and getting higher... Of course, the Obama Administration doesn't mind sending MORE guns down south. Ironically, the SAME guns it wants to ban here in the US. Howz THAT for irony??

Fact after Fact after FACT shows that gun bans and strict gun laws do NOT work..

Fact after Fact after FACT shows that gun bans and strict gun laws beget the VERY violence and death that they (ostensibly) are put in place to prevent..

If you want to argue the facts, fine. But for the gods' sake.. Bring some facts of your own!!

Michale

Bullpuckies. Anything to back up your googled copy and paste steaming pile of straw man examples?

Can you show:

That any of these groups had enough firearms in their possession to matter?

What percentage of the guns held by these groups were turned in/confiscated?

Two counter points: The Weimar Republic had stronger gun regulations that were actually weakened by the Nazis for most citizens. Jews and other groups unpopular with the government obviously excluded.

In Tzarist Russia gun ownership was legal. This allowed the Bolsheviks to import enough firearms to make the Russian revolution possible...

I hope you'll forgive me if I drag one of your comments from a few days ago and bring it current..

I think it's an important point..

Another strawman -- nobody's going to take anyone's guns away. Relax. Ain't gonna happen. Even DiFi's bill has grandfather clauses.

True..

But it DOES have a gun registration component..

Sure, you can keep your rifles..

But ya gotta register them with the guvment..

WHY???

Will gun registration prevent another Sandy Hook massacre??

Nope...

The ONLY purpose gun registration serves is as a prelude to confiscation...

In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend
themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. By 1987 that figure had risen to 61,911,000.

.Germany established gun control1 in 1938. Jews were not permitted to own guns. From 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.

Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, without the means to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979 under General Idi Amin Dada, 300,000 Christians and political rivals of Amin, unable to defend them¬selves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Cambodia established gun control in 1956. Between 1975 and 1993, 2,035,000 "educated" people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

How many more MILLIONS of people will have to be slaughtered before the Left realizes that guns are NOT the problem..

In MANY instances, INCLUDING the birth of this country, guns were part and parcel to the solution..

Michale

Go back and check M-W to see new comments everyone, and sorry about the delay...

-CW

OK, I have been lax at answering comments, so I'm going to dig through all of last week's now. So check all the comment threads in a half and hour or so... and apologies for the backup.

-CW

Hey there! Long time no see... welcome back!

:-)

Nice personification of "Gerry Mander" too... Massachusetts readers who know their state's history will be proud...

-CW

That's an interesting point of view I hadn't considered. At least there are enough sane Republicans in the Senate to occasionally pass what needs to be passed. And you're right, they were threatening to go absolutely ballistic.

But I still say Harry should have pushed it through. Let them earn their money. Make them talk.

Maybe that's just me, though...

-CW

Um, no. It's actually a reflection from a very shallow media pool. I mean, THIS is what we're talking about?

More on shallowness in today's article, later...

-CW

HAH! Now THAT was funny. Was this before or after he became a zombie hunter? Inquiring minds want to know.

Heh.

-CW

Don't know about IL, but out here in CA, the Dems just balanced the budget, under Gov. Brown.

:-)

-CW

Dredd is asexual. He actually has a neice (I think), who he basically shut himself off from, so the bad guys could never use her as leverage (a hostage, for instance). That's when he decided no human relationships at all for him. Including relationships.

Now Walter the Robot... I could see that. Heh. But not Dredd... like I said, he's asexual.

-CW

Last thing America needs just now is TWO Chambers of lunatic Republicans stopping progress. It's bad enough with one...

What did Harry The Hero do now?? :D

Michale

It's simply an indication of the entire Obama phenom...

All pomp and show and phony as hell...

Michale

It's all the GOP's fault..

Yes far-right lunatic websites telling you how the left thinks definitely corresponds to how the left thinks! Didn't we (or at least David and I) have this exact conversation last week? About the satanic worshipping Democrats that Rush et al. try to convince America represents 'the left'.

hehehehehehehehehe

That was a good one too! :D

“Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.”
-Benjamin Franklin

Now THAT is funny!!! :D

Michale

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2013/01/27/abc-gives-sen-menendez-six-minute-interview-no-questions-about-fbis-h#ixzz2JCXgdyuV

And people STILL believe that the MSM is not in the bag for Democrats...

Simply amazing....

Michale

http://wgntv.com/2013/01/26/illinois-credit-rating-downgraded-state-drops-to-worst-in-the-nation/

Democrats in action.....

Michale

What he doesn't realize is that it's only the American LEFT that is for Gun Control..

And they are far FAR outnumbered by Americans who are standing up for the 2nd Amendment...

Michale

Ya see!??

THIS is how the Left thinks...

It's all the GOP's fault..

Democrats are as pure as the driven snow...

Michale

Touche'... Ya got me on that one! :D

Michale

now that you mention it, a guy from another planet who wears bright blue tights and is afraid of green rocks? hmmmmmm....

I thought ya might like to see this, CW...

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/comic-book-hero-judge-dredd-might-be-gay-8466959.html

Wonder how long it will be til Superman is gay... :^/

Michale

You mean when she screamed hysterically "what does that matter now"??

Because I have a perfect answer for that...

It matters as much as it mattered when Democrats went on a witch hunt on President Bush for every time he farted in their general direction..

Michale

Louisiana purchase, cornhusker kickback. This would be infinitesimally better than nothing, were it not for the pain of adding insult to injury.