In other words, when confronted with the factual evidence that you were wrong, you do the equivalent of sticking your thumbs in your ears and squealing, "I'M NOT LISTENING TO YOU!!! I'M NOT LISTENING TO YOU!!"..

Real mature... :D

Michale
0291

Lol nope you provided a link that showed nobody voted for a Republican proposed bill called 'Obama's budget' that nobody voted for. Only a monkey with 2 brain cells couldn't see that this bill is absolutely nothing to do with Obama's actual bill (if you search CW to the last time we discussed this, I linked to both).

But hey cute little trick by Republicans. It works on the ill informed and ignorant pretty well - just check how easily you (and probably many others like you) bought it... It's just a shame they don't spend their time in Congress trying to pass ACTUAL bills for the millions of people suffering during an economic recession...

But it just doesn't pass the SMELL test... :D

Michale
0265

I have already given you the link that PROVED that NO ONE in the HOUSE voted for Obama's Budget the last time it went for a vote..

Which is why Reid is not allowing the Senate to vote on Obama's latest budget..

Would be too embarrassing for Obama to have his budget COMPLETELY rejected... AGAIN....

Michale
0264

Unfortunately they, among a few others, were the only ones who noticed that the 'Obama budget bill presented by the Republican party' which was unanimously rejected (56 pages - basically a list of meaningless numbers) was basically a parody of the actual Obama budget bill (~2000 pages). Anyway I've already discussed this on here with CB, who didn't care if it wasn't a real budget as she thought it was a good publicity stunt for the Republican party... Also if you find said discussion, you'll have seen that this isn't the first time the Republicans have played this game - they did it with Clinton too where a 'Clinton budget bill presented by the Republican party' was also unanimously rejected.

Only an idiot would seriously think that not 1 Democrat would back the actual President's budget (especially since your backing is just for show anyway, since the mere math of the House means passing it would not be possible).

But hey, give the sheepies their chance to shout about how no Democrats will vote for Obama budget bills. Clearly, judging by you, it works...

There apparently *IS* a "stupid" one here, but it ain't me.. :D

Michale
0261

We've already had this discussion on here Michale about the 'Republican Obama budget bills' that they tried to pass. I mean come on ARE YOU THAT STUPID? Do you seriously think that Obama's budget would get 0 votes in both the Senate and the House? You are incredibly naive and willing to buy into anything Fox says if you actually believe that...

Apparently, so...

Unanimous: Obama Budget Defeated 414-0
http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2012/03/29/unanimous_obama_budget_defeated_4140

This might make you happy...

You and Obama have something in common..

Neither of you can admit when you're wrong..

As you are here.. AGAIN...

Michale
0254

(1) Save the time and don't bother. Repeating this to yourself a million times won't make it true.
(2) (My preferred option) Count this as 10 points in your posting count.

Almost every single thread we go through this song and dance and quite frankly it's BORING AS HELL. I repeat: no matter how many times you repeat something to yourself it won't come true.

Now back to the actual discussion...

For one, the President doesn't have power to 'put forth' bills.

There you go again, changing my words to fit your nonsensical argument..

I said Obama BUDGET...

Not Obama BILL...

If you can't be honest about debating, why not just stop??

It wastes my time and makes you look like a nimnull...

Michale.....
0253

Let me clarify that..

With a couple exceptions no one here will ARTICULATE any disagreement with Obama on various issues..

That's why it's so difficult to have rational discussions.. Because I never know whether ya'all actually agree with Obama or ya'all are just SAYING you agree with Obama, to toe the Party line...

It goes back to intellectual honesty that was (and is) a pet peeve of mine...

Michale
0252

Do you know how I know this is true??

Because NO ONE here has fundementally disagreed with ANY ACTION that Obama has taken.. There are some actions of Obama's that I KNOW for a fact you disagree with, but you give Obama a pass because, as one Dem put it, Obama is lord and savior...

That's why it's difficult to have rational debates with the majority of ya'all... You won't call FOUL on Obama over ANYTHING...

Even the stuff I *KNOW* you think are foul..

It's really THAT simple...

Michale
0251

Completely 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000% wrong. For one, the President doesn't have power to 'put forth' bills. You live in Fox News lalalalalaland.

So, WHY do ya'all think THIS plan of Obama's has anything going for it when NONE before has???

Because this is the plan being put forward by the DEMOCRATS in discussions with the REPUBLICANS. Jesus what world do you live on?? A maniacal world where Democrats don't even support THEIR OWN PLAN that they are putting forward in negotiations lolololol

So, WHY do ya'all think THIS plan of Obama's has anything going for it when NONE before has???

Answer: Because of that all important '-D' behind Obama's name..

Obama could say that the sky is purple and water is dry and ya'all would be "yep yep.. He's right"...

Michale
0250

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. You do know what party Obama is the head of?? Hahahahaha amazing. I knew you would try and find some half assed attempt to wriggle out of being wrong but this is amazing!!

DEMOCRAT Budget...

Not OBAMA Budget....

I knew you were talkin' out yer arse... :D

Michale
0248

How dare you break rank! Must have been a filthy liberal working undercover in McCain's campaign...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/05/top-two-percent-tax_n_2245596.html

Logically, proving negatives is quite possible. For example, you could prove "there is no cat in this box" by doing an analysis of the box and showing there is no cat in the box.

However, what you seem to like to do is make a statement and then say if you can't prove it's not true, then it is true.

This is simply a logical fallacy.

Whether or not evidence exists to prove something is true can have nothing to do with whether it is true or not.

Michty's unicorn example, for instance. Saying "I believe in unicorns because there is no evidence to say they don't exist" is an example.

This is a fun list ...

http://www.theskepticsguide.org/resources/logicalfallacies.aspx

-David

p.s. BTW- Here's an Obama budget which passed resoundingly. Interesting also that it's not getting much coverage

http://www.brecorder.com/general-news/172/1264871/

Now you'll probably say "That's not an Obama budget" To which I would reply, the President doesn't create budgets. This is the responsibility of Congress. So the question is a bit silly to begin with.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/07/with-vp-biden-presiding-senate-passes-democrats-tax-cut-plan/

Because this is nonsense and you just made this up? Jesus Michale, I know you HATE facts, but if you're going to spew your fantasy land nonsense at least look at the last Democratic budget that was voted on in the Senate...

You have a tendency to make claims without ANY substantiation...

Since I can't prove a negative, you show me an *Obama* Budget Plan that garnared a Dem vote....

Put up or Shut Up.. :D

Michale
0247

Perhaps not every second. Because people may need to make concessions that may not be popular with everyone.

But perhaps there's some middle ground where the public could know more about what's going on.

It's tough because if it were televised, you would likely only have people playing to the cameras and marketing. Kind of like the election!

-David

Is this perhaps the true compromise they're looking for?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2012/12/06/the-morning-plum-a-way-out-of-the-impasse/

I'd agree.

I think Republicans believe that they would win the media spectacle. But all their money and media didn't win them the last one.

I'd vote to make the negotiations more public. Just don't let Jim Lehrer moderate it please :)

-David

I would also add to this that tax cuts on people earning $250k a year. If rates go up on 100% of people the rich will get absolutely shellacked on all their income. It is in their interests as much as anyone to keep taxes lower on earnings <$250k.

Also for the record ... I'd be willing to place a friendly wager that there is a deal

Simply based on the BATNA for Republicans. Which I might be underestimating, but hey, it's all in fun

Agreed. Republican's have no leg to stand on so you would think they might be smart and make a deal. But this is probably underestimating how stupid and partisan Republicans are...

Michale,
Obama never had any intention to compromise..

When their up, "compromise" is a dirty word...

Actually 100% factually wrong. Obama offered a compromise to the fiscal cliff, by the very basic definition of compromise. Nothing the Republicans offered meets 'compromise' unless you define compromise as 'take the initial starting point, worst case scenario and then make it even worse and more one sided'. I guess in your world that would be how you define compromise lolol.

Obama's budget plans have NEVER *EVER* garnered a SINGLE vote of support from either Republicans or Democrats...

Because this is nonsense and you just made this up? Jesus Michale, I know you HATE facts, but if you're going to spew your fantasy land nonsense at least look at the last Democratic budget that was voted on in the Senate...

Obama's plan came first..

Let's see the vote on THAT and then you might have an argument..

This is actually, to me, another sign that they may be trying to find common ground rather than wasting time on staged votes.

You might be right...

What's leaking out to the public may be NOTHING but what's going on behind close doors may be everything.

If this is the case, then WHY keep it behind closed doors??

Didn't Obama make a transparency pledge??

Hell even Norquist is saying to televise all the negotiations..

Funny how all the calls for transparency are coming from the RIGHT and not from the Administration who PLEDGED and PROMISED transparency...

Michale
0246

Why won't Congressional Republicans vote on their plan?

I think the answer is that they're trying to work this out and come to an agreement that they then could all vote on rather than holding votes that both sides know would go nowhere.

This is actually, to me, another sign that they may be trying to find common ground rather than wasting time on staged votes.

-David

It's funny..

Obama's budget plans have NEVER *EVER* garnered a SINGLE vote of support from either Republicans or Democrats...

Why is now any different???

Michale
0243

Simply based on the BATNA for Republicans. Which I might be underestimating, but hey, it's all in fun

-David

This is likely true though. Those making $250k+ are the top 2% of income earners.

The desire for compromise goes right out the window....

You see, I really don't have a moral qualm about the REALLY rich people paying more.. I really don't..

But on what planet is it a good idea to make struggling small businesses pay even MORE in taxes??

It won't help the economy.. It will HURT the economy...

Why are Democrats so adamant about HURTING this country more than they already have???

Michale
0242

And perhaps that could be part of a deal.

-David

Impossible. By definition.

BTW- Apologies. I misread and thought you said something different here.

I think the two sides still are negotiating. I think what we've seen in the media so far are likely the two extremes.

What I am happy about is that Obama didn't start with the compromise. Like in the healthcare debate. He seems to have become a better negotiator.

And he should be. As we've argued, his position is strong because a compromise is already in place.

-David

Uh.. That's what I said...

Obama made the opening bid. The GOP counter offered...

If Obama was sincere about compromise and was negotiating in good faith, then Obama would have made a COUNTER offer to the GOP's counter-offer..

"Oh, a counter-offer. That's what we lawyers - I'm a lawyer - we lawyers call that a counter-offer. This is a tough decision here. Get my ass kicked or collect $200. Let me think... I could use a good ass-kickin', I'll be very honest with you... nah, I think I'll just go with the two hundred. "
-Joe Pesci, MY COUSIN VINNY

:D

But I'm sure this is wrong because I'm a Democrat ... :)

Naw, not this time.. :D

Just like how I was wrong about how a tax increase for the top 2% targets everyone in the top 2% equally.

So, you think small businesses who make $250K a year are in the top 2%???

Cite???

Sure, Michale ... I also know we've got you on the run when all you can do is scream "Democrat!"

On the run? Hardly???

"Haarrddly???
-John McClane, DIE HARD III

I am the one putting down all the facts.. Facts that no one can counter.. :D

For example, the LUDICROUS idea that small businesses that make $250K a year are in the top 2% of the nation, income wise...

I thought we had agreed that those making over a million a year should be taxed???

I guess that's what happens when Democrats are shellackers instead of shellackees...

The desire for compromise goes right out the window....

Which is EXACTLY what I said would happen.. :D

Michale....
0240

Impossible. By definition.

Obama made the opening bid. A counter offer can't be an opening bid.

But I'm sure this is wrong because I'm a Democrat ... :)

Just like how I was wrong about how a tax increase for the top 2% targets everyone in the top 2% equally.

Because this is Democratic thinking.

Sure, Michale ... I also know we've got you on the run when all you can do is scream "Democrat!"

-David

That showed an amazing lack of tact and diplomacy...

Sowee about that.. But 'tact' has never been my middle name.. :^)

Michale
0239

Still no evidence to refute the 'Modern Liberal' theory?? :D

"It's OK, I understand... This ain't no Never Never Land"
-J. Geils Band, FREEZE FRAME

:D

Michale
0238

The Obama Administration quickly reacted..

"STOP!!!! Or I'll say 'STOP' again!!"
-Obama's Foreign Policy

How did we EVER get such an incompetent leader???

Michale
0237

Yea... No quid pro quo when the rich vote Dem, right???

Once again, Obama proves me right....

Michale
0236

Ya'all quoted Bob Woodward before...

“This is the Obama era, it is Obama’s economy. Speaker Boehner’s an important player and this is significant, but it is Obama’s job to lead and define — so if there negative consequences here, particularly in the economy, it is going to be, ‘In the Obama era, things didn’t get fixed.’”

http://www.politico.com/story/2012/12/woodward-on-fiscal-cliff-no-way-to-govern-84617.html#ixzz2EGdflPU0

That about sums things up..

When future historians write about this, it will be that Obama and the Democrats were so locked into their ideology that they would rather stick it to the middle class and the poor rather than NOT be able to stick it to the rich...

Michale
0234

of course not, it's an opening bid. O is negotiating from a position of strength instead of weakness.

Apparently, it's NOT an opening bid. It's a failure to compromise..

If it were an opening bid, then Obama would have countered the GOP counter-offer..

He didn't.. He has, in effect said, "OK, fine. Let's shove this country over the cliff and into another recessions"...

In essence, he and the Democrats would rather push taxes up for the poor and middle class rather than NOT be able to push his agenda...

So I have to say that, as things appear now, Joshua, you were wrong..

Obama never had any intention to compromise..

Which is ironic because it's JUST as I said it would be...

Democrats are all about compromise when they're down..

When their up, "compromise" is a dirty word...

Michale
0232

YOu mean the average Weigantian.. :D

Because, for the average Weigantian, it's the '-D' after the name that is all important.. :D

Michale
0231

Illogical. A tax cut on those making over $250k a year would apply equally to everyone making over $250k a year.

I know I got ya'all on the run when your comments contradict each other AND the reality... :D

I know we've got you on the run when an average reader would find your comments a bit out there.

:)

'Night Ralph ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EEORunLi78

-David

It's Democrats that are saying "'ABSOLUTELY' WILLING TO GO OVER 'CLIFF'

Of course they're willing to go over the cliff if THAT IS THE BEST OPTION AVAILABLE.

They made their offer, which does not involve going over the cliff; Republicans countered with an offer when involved going over the cliff AND THEN EVEN MORE CUTS ON TOP OF THIS. Going over AN EVEN BIGGER CLIFF.

The Republican offer is WORSE than the cliff and Republicans won't accept Obama's offer so GOING OVER THE CLIFF IS THE BEST OFFER AVAILABLE BECAUSE REPUBLICANS OFFER IS WORSE THAN GOING OVER THE CLIFF.

I mean I thought I made it pretty clear...Look again at post [168] and the analogy I posted. If the mugger will not accept $2.50 but will accept a counter-offer that is HIGHER than his original offer why on earth would YOU accept the counter-offer?

Jesus. I give up. I have tried using simple/fun analogies but it's like trying to explain simple maths to a parrot that just keeps repeating 'but both are just as bad, but both are just as bad, but Obama is evil, but Obama is evil'. I don't think you understand what 'compromise' means or the numbers involved in the 'fiscal cliff' or any of the details in what either side is offering....You truly are a Republican!

The LEFT rich get kickbacks and quid pro quo and all that other felgercarb that ya'all claim you are against...

Ah Michale-world, it's a magical place with flying unicorns, crazy liberals, the sky is green (YOU CAN'T PROVE IT'S NOT GREEN WITH FACTS!), Obama the evil Kenyan usurper bought the election, global warming is a liberal conspiracy, gays choose to be that way and the evil overlord comes up with tax increases that only apply to Conservatives.

Catch ya'all in the AM... :D

Michale
0230

The ONLY goal is to stick it to the rich..

But, of course, ONLY the rich who support the Republicans..

The LEFT rich get kickbacks and quid pro quo and all that other felgercarb that ya'all claim you are against...

Michale
0229

hehehehehehe

I know I got ya'all on the run when your comments contradict each other AND the reality... :D

Michale
0228

Jeeze, could you be any more blatant with the total BS???

I mean, seriously!!

At least make a SMALL EFFORT to be grounded in reality, fer chreest's sake!!!

Michale
0227

I know you are but what am I !!!

;)

-David

You are obviously not up on current events there, sunshine..

It's Democrats that are saying "'ABSOLUTELY' WILLING TO GO OVER 'CLIFF'
http://www.cnbc.com/id/100281263

Jeeze, could you be any more blatant with the total BS???

Michale
0226

Now, if you don't have ANY factual evidence to disprove it (as usual), then it stands as factual...

Michale
0225

Yea... It's the REPUBLICANS that are evil and wrong and the DEMOCRATS that are goodness and light..

Jeezus, could the partisanship be any more blatant...

Michale
0224

But Republicans are NOT "compromising" by THEIR willingness to go over the fiscal cliff..

Nope. Still not getting it. I'll try one more time.

Democrats = let's not go over the cliff
Republicans = let's not JUST go over the cliff but cut EVEN MORE cuts than the fiscal cliff package.

You see how the Republican position is not one of compromise? I'll try one more time to try and get you to understand this with an analogy:

You're walking along one day when a mugger called 'fiscal cliff' comes along, pulls out a gun and says "Give me $10!" But then a Democrat comes along and says, "tell you what we'll compromise - just give me $2.50". Then a Republican comes along and says "tell you what we'll compromise - just give $12 and your watch"

Do you see how this offer is NOT A COMPROMISE BY ANY DEFINITION OF THE WORD COMPROMISE lol.

It it's so much "bullshit" it should to be EASY to disprove..

But I see the evidence of today's "Modern Liberals" all around us in the here and now...

The idea drilled into our young children that "everyone is special"... The concept of not rewarding success so as to insure that EVERYONE performs at the same mediocre level..

The idea that Americans did not build their businesses... Remember "You didn't build that!"???

The evidence of the "bullshit rhetoric" is all around us..

Your turn.. Show some evidence that disproves this theory..

You can't, because none exists..

Michale
0224

Yes.. Democrats are "compromising" by their willingness to go over the fiscal cliff..

But Republicans are NOT "compromising" by THEIR willingness to go over the fiscal cliff..

Got it..

We are at war with Eurasia... We have always been at war with Eurasia....

Got it.. {wink wink}

Michale
0223

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL AMAZING. Again shows how completely clueless you are on what is going on.

I'd love to see how this works in practise... Fast forward 50 years down the line: 'Obama just died, how on earth are we going to raise the debt ceiling ever again - we're screwed!'

According to the Dem narrative, going over the fiscal cliff was the signal for the End Of Days..

NOW that Dems know they can't bully the GOP with their fantasy "mandate", NOW the Democrats have changed the narrative...

With the skill that would make any die-hard Republican blush..

So, credit where credit is due...

Democrats have learned to lie and spin and bullshit as good as Republicans...

Kudos...

Michale
0222

I have replied to [146]. Democrats are compromising:
- Democrats proposal = No deep cuts, no tax increases for 98%
- Fiscal cliff = Some deep cuts to programmes both Democrats and Republicans like, tax increases for 100%
- Republicans proposal = Take the fiscal cliff and build the cuts even HIGHER and DEEPER but only full of cuts to programmes that Democrats like. No promises on taxes.

Do you see how the middle one actually IS a compromise? You haven't replied to any of my posts because you know the FACTS are against you (as usual)...

Because Obama asked for authority to raise the debt limit SOLELY AND COMPLETELY on his own say-so....

And NO ONE here said "boo"...

Michale
0221

Not at all..

I simply like to bring logic and objectivity to all the partisan BS that permeates around here..

For example, no one here responds to #146...

Why is that??? :D

Michale
0219

Probably 3 of the dumbest paragraphs I've ever read in my entire life.

That validates it for me!!! :D

Now, if you had some FACTS to validate your opinion, then you might have a point..

But to attack it so blatantly w/o any facts???

Well, it seems to me it's hitting uncomfortably close to home, eh? :D

Michale
0218

Agreed. They would have to fight to reinstate the middle class tax cuts. However, this is why there is so much nonsense going on right now. Because the one thing Republicans fear most is looking like they represent the rich.

They succeed when they are able to muddy the waters and claim to represent something else- like freedom or candy. Which, in all likelihood, is why Michale likes to muddy the waters so much.

-David

This is the environment that is found in kindergarten, where every child’s finger painting is declared ‘beautiful,’ and every child is declared special (but none more special than any other), and where every child gets a cookie, but no child gets two. Modern liberalism is predicated on the notion that, if we could just retard the child’s moral and intellectual growth at a level prior to his having begun to learn about the better, then paradise will reign.”

http://dailycaller.com/2012/12/05/comedian-liberal-comics-dont-want-to-make-fun-of-obama-because-they-feel-that-it-will-weaken-him/#ixzz2EDNdj4N0

Now that's the BEST explanation of today's Liberals as I have EVER heard....

It's so dead on balls accurate, it's SCARY!!

Michale
0217

And now the truth comes out... :D

Not that any rational or objective person ever doubted it...

Michale
0216

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/dec/5/court-questions-obama-recess-appointments/

Looks like they're coming back to bite him on the ass.... :D

Michale
0215

Yea... NO Obama Media Bias in the MSM, right?? :D

They're not even trying to HIDE it anymore....

Michale
0213

The Republican 'compromise' is laughable BECAUSE IT IS NOT A COMPROMISE. I dont think you'll ever get that. Their proposal isto basically cut MORE than would be cut if America did nothing. The Democrats plan is to cut very little. YOU might not think of this as a compromise but it is.

Let me put it this way: thr fiscal cliff is bad because he cuts are too heavy and drastic. Democrats said lets make them less drastic. Republicans said lets make them MORE drastic. Using the cliff analogy, Republicans 'compromise' was to MAKE THE CLIFF BIGGER. Thats why the most appropriate response is LOLOLOLOLOL.

No subtly there....

Michale
0212

Yea..... No Quid Pro Quo in Obama's win, right???

What is so unbelievable is that ya'all actually BELIEVE that Obama is not beholden to anyone...

The level of delusion is fascinating..

Michale
0211

Frankly, NEITHER Party is compromising at all to avoid a new recession.

But if you have to spin it that way to make it thru the day, far be it from me to destroy your delusions with logic... :D

Michale
0210

And the DEMs put out a "SUPER LAUGHABLE LOLOLOLOL" offer, thereby insuring that they push this country over a fiscal cliff..

Ever see A CIVIL ACTION??

Michale.....
0209

Jimmy has an alcohol problem. He spends far too much money on alcohol. Doing this has led to him becoming indebted. Also his boss, Mr Bush, cut his pay a few years back - not helping his debt situation. Furthermore, as the economy suffered, he didn't get his usual pay rises - again worsening the debt situation. On a side note, Jimmy likes to go to the library for 5 hours and read a book.

A while ago, Democrats and Republicans got together and proposed a plan called the 'fiscal cliff'. On enactment, Jimmy's revenue will go up - but part of this increase will come from taking money from really poor people to give to Jimmy, as well as part from Mr Burns. Furthermore, Jimmy's alcohol allowance will be cut (although only by a small amount, as Republicans like it that Jimmy wastes unnecessary money on alcohol). Finally, Jimmy will be limited to only 2.5 hours at the library as this is an 'entitlement' which one side feels needs cutting.

Democrats put forward a compromise which stated that Jimmy's pay will go up - but only by the part funded by Mr Burns, none of it will be funded by poor people. In addition, Jimmy will be allowed his 5 hours at the library - perhaps being decreased to 4.5 hours over time. Sadly, they didn't touch the alcohol allowance Jimmy has, as this was their compromise to the other side.

Republicans put forward a compromise. In it Jimmy's pay will go up - although not by as much as Democrats and they won't say who will pay for this, so it could be Mr Burns or poor people. Jimmy's alcohol allowance will remain untouched (in fact, during the election they advocated INCREASING Jimmy's alcohol allowance, which is their party policy). In fact, the blame all of Jimmy's problems on the 5 hours he spends at the library - such 'entitlement' will be cut to 0.5 hours a week.

So Jimmy has the option of taking the plan originally passed or trying to reach some sort of middle agreement between the 2 other offers.

To me, Jimmy's solution is pretty simple :)

All that changed was that the GOP put out a SUPER LAUGHABLE LOLOLOLOL offer and thus solidified this.

Of course, the CONVERSE of that must ALSO be true.

Towhit, since Republicans didn't accept the DEM plan they (Republicans) are, in fact, "compromising" by forcing this country over the fiscal cliff and into a recession, since THAT is, according to you, "the compromise....

DO you see how utterly untenable your position is??

Every claim of GOP nefariousness and DEM virtue you make is an equal mirror claim of DEM nefariousness and GOP virtue..

It simply cannot be any other way...

Michale
0207

Before, ya'alls story was that the GOP would rather push this country off the fiscal cliff rather than "compromise"..

NOW that the GOP has offered a plan that is the mirror image of the DEM plan (both equally "unfair" to the other Party's agenda)....

NOW all of the sudden, the fiscal cliff *IS* the compromise...

I wish ya'all would get your stories straight....

Michale
0206

Yeh if the compromise is 'cliff without the tax rises on 98% of Americans' then that's actually a pretty big compromise for Democrats - they are giving up the payroll tax increase alongside a bunch of unnecessary cuts on 'entitlement spending' - whilst Republicans are giving up tax cuts on the top 2% and military spending cuts.

As much as I think entitlement spending cuts are stupid and unnecessary, I think that's a necessary compromise considering Republicans are so hell bent on making life more miserable for poor/Veteran/unemployed/disabled Americans - and when one side is so hell bent on this and controls 1/3 of Congress you don't really have much choice...

The only thing missing from this is the debt ceiling increase - which is something that shouldn't have to be 'negotiated' - but hey, it's Republicans we're dealing with here and if they have to destroy the economic recovery and US credit rating to get their own way then they are generally prepared to... That is perhaps the most interesting element of the negotiations.

Hahahahahah ... I keep asking myself the same thing as well. But Dems are fickle creatures who also are under pressure from lobbyists ... so you never know.

The thing I think most people don't get is that the cliff is the compromise!

And some days it seems like the only thing Reps/Dems have agreed on for the past 2 years.

-David

That's kinda strange.. Because back when Bush was President, the Left (INCLUDING every Weigantian here) said that the POTUS was COMPLETELY responsible for the high gas prices

I know you like to quote this mythical left creature, but no in no way whatsoever is the President of the UNITED STATES responsible for the WORLDWIDE price of oil/gas (which peaked in June 2008 just so we're clear). OPEC or those willing to try and make money by speculating on oil prices and oil futures are much more to blame.

Oh and the fact that oil is a finite resource and will eventually run out, so basic supply and demand dictates that as a resource becomes more scarce it's price increases...

BTW- Thanks, michty, if you're still out there!

Ha! Thanks for the name drop! Not been around as I got a little bored with all the discussions and bickering over who is not compromising and who isn't.

My view is that you can yammer on for hours about who is compromising or not but the absolute 100% FACT is that the vast majority of the current US deficit was caused by 3 things (for reference, see the video/Wikipedia entry I posted somewhere in this thread):

(1) Tax rates and revenue being too low (Bush tax cuts)
(2) Massive amounts of military spending, including (but not just) 2 wars
(3) The economy performing worse than expected

The problem is that Republicans want to pretend that (1) and (2) don't exist and that somehow, despite almost no changes to the system or rules in place in the last 10 years, 'entitlement spending' or healthcare costs are magically to blame for the deficit. The Republicans solution to (3) is, as it always has been, 'trickle down' - a failed policy which the people of the USA have made it clear they will not back anymore (and also adds to the deficit because of (1)).

So in a sense there is NOTHING TO COMPROMISE ON as far as I'm concerned. Compromising and cutting entitlement benefits to 'fix' the deficit would be like saying 'well John has an alcohol problem, so let's cut his cigarettes to 1 pack a day, let him drink all the booze he wants that will probably cure him'. Why on earth would you compromise when you know that ALCOHOL, not cigarettes, is John's problem?

So Democrats have an easy choice. They can fix (1) by going over the cliff and then pass a bill keeping tax rates low (to not make (3) any worse) on 98% of people, whilst also taking a small step to fix (2) because the fiscal cliff actually includes military cuts. In a sense this is 'compromising' since the fiscal cliff package also contains unnecessary 'entitlement' spending cuts.

So there is literally nothing to debate. Why on earth would Democrats even bother to consider a Republican offer that cuts more than going over the cliff would and basically takes John's cigarettes away, when the package in place already takes some of his booze off him to fix his real problem...

No, Mr "word in mouth" putter ...

But I realize this is how you will try to spin it as part of your hardball technique to get 100% of what you want.

What are Republicans willing to offer to avoid the impending death and destruction of driving off the fiscal cliff? (hyperbole, hyperbole ... :) )

Where's the military cuts? Where's the tax increases from Bowles-Simpson?

And ... why aren't you happy with the compromise Congress agreed to?

-David

So, you agree with my conclusion that Democrats would rather push this country over the fiscal cliff rather than accept spending cuts..

Michale
0205

The fiscal is a compromise. Agreed to by both parties. So it can be done.

I guess it remains to be seen if it can be done in another way.

-David

You see, the problem is Democrats would rather go over the cliff than accept spending cuts..

Republicans have stated they would accept higher taxes on higher incomes..

So, who is not willing to compromise??

Michale
0204

OK So you would agree that the GOP plan is as much a compromise as the DEM plan is..

Bowles himself actually spoke out against the GOP proposal.

Of course he did. He's a Democrat...

Backroom deals with big business.

Come on! That's how Democrats and Obama have governed since they got elected. Back Room smoke filled rooms..

You can't castigate Backroom deals from the GOP and give the DEM's backroom deals a pass..

It's against the rules... :D

BTW- 202 ... well done!

Couldn't have done it without ya, my friend! :D

Michale
0203

You're putting words in my mouth. Again, what I stated was the plan the GOP put forth is not a compromise. I didn't make any comments about either plan being fair.

I also argued that the "fiscal cliff" is a better compromise for Democrats than anything the GOP has offered so far.

But I'm sure this won't stop you from putting more words in my mouth. It never has before.

The GOP plan is nearly identical to the Simpson-Bowles Commission plan that OBAMA set up.

Actually, it's not. Simpson-Bowles proposed ...

1. Ending tax breaks for those making more than $250k (hmm, why does that sound familiar?)
2. Simpson-Bowles includes almost as many revenue increases as cuts. The ratio is nearly 1:1
3. Congress and Obama have already passed 70% of the cuts recommended by Simpson-Bowles.
4. Simpson-Bowles recommended cuts to the military.

So I'm not sure which Simpson-Bowles proposal you're referring to. One on another planet likely.

BTW- Much of this can be found in this excellent article on Simpson Bowles

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/04/11-shocking-true-facts-about-simpson-bowles/

Bowles himself actually spoke out against the GOP proposal.

Do you REALLY wanna go shot for shot for out of context, private quotes?

I suppose if everything you just said was taken out of context (which I'd agree with), I guess I can ignore it.

Unfortunately, Romney's private conversations are his context. Backroom deals with big business. This is one of the few places where Romney laid out his agenda- more supply side economics and deregulation designed to benefit big business. All of this in the hope that it would "trickle down".

Sound familiar?

-David

BTW- 202 ... well done!

The GOP plan is nearly identical to the Simpson-Bowles Commission plan that OBAMA set up...

Regardless, why is it that you think the DEM plan is fair, but the GOP plan is not??

They both are mirror images of each other..

The fiscal cliff is a much better compromise.

It wasn't a few days ago...

Puh-leez ... this coming from the party whose candidate for President, the party standard bearer, said he thinks 47% of the country is moochers and deadbeats.

And the standard bearer for YOUR party is a guy who said that Americans cling to guns and religion..

The standard bearer for YOUR party is a guy who said that GOVERNMENT built small business, not Americans..

The standard bearer for YOUR party is a guy who said that raising the debt limit is "unpatriotic"..

The standard bearer for YOUR party is a guy who made a private deal with the Russians!!

Do you REALLY wanna go shot for shot for out of context, private quotes??

I don't think you do... :D

But the bottom line of businesses should not be the sole concern of a government by and for the people.

And THAT is why we are having record high unemployment for years.

THAT is why our economy is in the toilet..

THAT is why Democrats are pushing this country over a cliff and into another recession..

Because Obama & Democrats feel that government is the savior of the economy, NOT small businesses...

Everything Obama & Democrats have done have HURT the middle class..

Do you think it's going to be the rich who suffers most in another recession??

No.. It will be the middle class..

And Democrats are doing their damnest to make sure that it happens..

Michale
0202

Does anyone believe that 1.2 trillion in cuts to Medicare and Social Security (with no cuts to the military) and 800 billion in supposed vague loophole closures (unknown, TBD) and no tax increases on the wealthy is a *COMPROMISE*?

Please ...

The fiscal cliff is a much better compromise. It has cuts to programs both sides don't like. It has revenue increases that Republicans and Democrats agreed to. It has pain for everyone.

It is the compromise.

Unless the two sides can come up with something better that both like.

I think what really gets your goat, Michale, is that Obama understands this and, as Joshua mentions, is negotiating from a position of strength. Rather than in the past using the compromise as the starting point.

Because we all know that no matter what the proposal, Republicans are going to scream that it's not extreme enough.

Democrats care more for the Democrat Agenda than they do for the welfare of this country and it's citizens.

Puh-leez ... this coming from the party whose candidate for President, the party standard bearer, said he thinks 47% of the country is moochers and deadbeats.

Why should we have a government that caters solely to business when you yourself stated business has no interest in our country? By definition, business cares about the bottom line. And this is ok. But the bottom line of businesses should not be the sole concern of a government by and for the people.

-David

Once again, I have to ask..

Where is Code Pink??

Where is MoveOn???

Where are the Weigantians!???

I am honestly flabbergasted that (relatively speaking) *NO ONE* from the Left says "boo" about this!!

Michale
0201

Which simply proves once again what I have been saying..

Democrats care more for the Democrat Agenda than they do for the welfare of this country and it's citizens...

And that's just sad.... Plain and simple..

Michale
0199

The funny thing is, before ya'all REALIZED that, ya'all were accusing the GOP of exactly that..

But, then when ya'all realized what the GOP planned...???

It was complete 180 city!!!

I hope ya'all didn't hurt yerselves with whiplash or sumthin' :D

Michale
0198

Why not try competence??

Competence ALWAYS seems to get people somewhere..

Michale
0195

of course not, it's an opening bid. O is negotiating from a position of strength instead of weakness. there are certainly cuts to be made, but he's going to make the republicans drag it out of him, rather than assuming they'd accept a reasonable first offer, as he did in his first term. he's being unreasonable because reason didn't get him anywhere.

I disagree...

"Jan! We're trying to AVOID going to court! You just guaranteed that we ARE going to court!"
-William H Macy, A CIVIL ACTION

Democrats made a ridiculous offer that they KNOW the GOP couldn't accept, thereby guaranteeing that this country would go over the fiscal cliff..

Democrats are calculating that the American people will blame the GOP..

They may be right...

But what if they're wrong??

Personally, I think the Dems are seeing too much into their win. They think they have a mandate from the people.

The Democrats see what they want to see..

And it will be their undoing..

Michale
0194