Maybe we're reading two different Constitutions..

Michale.....

Seriously!???

You are comparing the purchase of health insurance for private use to the Federal Government maintaining a standing army PER THE CONSTITUTION..

There is DEFINITELY something stoopid here, but it's not my argument.... :D

Your entire argument is based on the completely ludicrous idea that Americans purchase items that the Federal Government provides for PRIVATE use..

It's ludicrous...

Michale....

Hint.. It AIN'T there..."

Show me the part of the Constitution that allows the Federal Government to FORCE Americans to purchase military forces they don't want and may not ever need..

Show me the part of the Constitution that allows the Federal Government to FORCE Americans to purchase roads they don't want and may not ever need..

Show me the part of the Constitution that allows the Federal Government to FORCE Americans to purchase parkland they don't want and may not ever need..

Show me the part of the Constitution that allows the Federal Government to FORCE Americans to purchase retirement plans they don't want and may not ever need..

Hint.. Your argument is STUPID!!!...

So, find me the part of the Constitution that allows the Federal Government to FORCE Americans to purchase a product that they don't want and may not ever need..

Hint.. It AIN'T there...

Would you be OK if the Federal Government ordered every American to purchase a firearm???

Michale.....

If the Government can force you to buy health insurance, where is the line??"

Now you're concerned with imaginary arbitrary lines? Earth to Michale, the "lines" are known as the Constitution, "The Peoples' House" and "the vote." That's why the Founding Fathers were so concerned about little things like the Constitution, checks and balances, separation of powers, states rights, and the Bill Of Rights. The only hard-and-fast lines are the articles of the Constitution.

None of which, however, serves to justify or excuse your lying about the ACA being a tax.

If you don't meet a law that forces you to do something against your will, that you might never need or use...

Where is the line??

If the Government can force you to buy health insurance, where is the line??

If this stands, the Government can force you to buy firearms, can force you to buy broccoli, can force you to NOT buy cigarettes...

You don't find it the LEAST bit ironic that the Democratic Party, THE Party that epitomizes personal freedom and diversity, is the one bringing about 1984???

I realize that the ONLY reason ya'all are behind this is because the current President has a '-D' after his name..

Do I really need to point out how ya'all will do a complete 180 once we have President Romney and a GOP Congress???

CB,

I see the New York Times is doing its usual darnedest to help the White House out with the Libya debacle and coverup:

Yea.. There is no Obama bias in the MSM...

{/sarcasm}

Michale.....

Its the Presidents job to keep the government's wheels, on not to be an advocate. Congress is responsible for legislating, not the President. Everyone, Left and Right, chooses to ignore that minor fact because going after the President is easier than targeting Congress.

With the most obstructive and least productive Congress in history, during the second greatest recession in history, it would be irresponsible for the President to "take a stand" instead of doing his job. The Republicans "took a stand" and we're all paying for it in increased debt and reduced credit-ratings.

With a belligerent Congress refusing to cooperate the worst thing the President could do is be more confrontational. Legislating is the job of Congress, its the Presidents job to keep the government functioning. Causing government shutdowns over legislative proposals would be grounds for impeachment. Just because the President, as the head of the majority party, normally has the clout to pursue legislative agendas doesn't make it his job, or, as we see now, even guarantee that he has the ability.

The Republican are taking advantage of the separation of powers to game the system. They have been trying, for years, to generate public outrage at the President for the failures of Congress. That they're having any success is due to the stupidity of voters, Right, Left and Center!

"Take his case to the people?" What case? Its not the Presidents job to legislate! Congress alone has that power. If they refuse to act the President is powerless, and rightly so. What you want is for Democrats to emulate Republicans and ignore Constitution instead of accepting its limitations. President Obama promised not to do that, and, thankfully, he hasn't done it.

It isn't bad enough we have a minority party, both in Congress and SCOTUS, betraying their oaths and responsibilities, circumventing both the democratic process and the Constitution, you want the other major party and the President, to do the same?! Why? To make it explicit that the Constitution doesn't mean anything to anyone?

Remember ObamaCare??"

The American people are fine with Obmacare. Its the fantasy Obamcare spun by Republicans that they're against. People are also fine with the direction of the country is heading. The complaint is that isn't enough or fast enough, for which they can thank Republican obstructionism.

With the ObamaCare tax, you are being penalized for NOT doing something...."

Right. The government imposes a financial penalty if you don't meet the law... let's see now--there's only a few tens of thousands of precedents for that one, since nearly every law ever written imposes financial penalties for noncompliance.

ROFL! A real mystery, isn't it? The press is working hard to keep the story quiet, too — except for Fox, needless to say.

LD- Not at all. What I am arguing for is Democrats taking a stand. When you run into a group of people who it is impossible to negotiate with, one way to deal with this is by taking your case to the American people.

The problem with that is that Democrats know (or at least they SHOULD know) that the American people are NOT on the Democrats' side on many MANY things...

Yes, you can cherry pick a position or two that, when framed or spun properly, the American people will buy into...

But, overall, the American people simply don't like the direction the Democrats are taking this country in...

Remember ObamaCare??

That's a perfect example of Democrats leading where the American people simply will not follow..

Michale.....

"When you don't have a record to run on, you make a big election about little things."
-Senator Barack Obama

Apparently, Team Obama doesn't believe they have a record to run on..

I just CAN'T understand why Obama won't talk about Libya???

On the plus side, from all appearances, Barack Obama is a great husband and father...

This saying something nice every time is a LOT harder than I thought..

Michale

LD- Not at all. What I am arguing for is Democrats taking a stand. When you run into a group of people who it is impossible to negotiate with, one way to deal with this is by taking your case to the American people.

Obama has done this at times but faces a media that at many times simply isn't interested. Unless there is conflict.

While I do not advocate made up crises ala Republicans, sometimes you have to call a bluff.

-David

Which is EXACTLY why we are where we are...

Because Democrats figured they could further their agenda by being more Republican than Republicans...

Since Republicans have never shown any fiscal responsibility I wouldn't expect them to care, but Democrats should, we should, and somebody has to if this nation is to survive.

You are operating under the mistaken assumption that Democrats care more for the country than they do for their own agenda..

There is absolutely NO evidence to support this assumption and PLENTY of evidence to disprove the theory...

One only has to look at the attitude of the Democrats re: the Debt Ceiling when we had a GOP President vs the attitude of the Democrats re: the Debt Ceiling when we had a DEM President...

Michale.....

Ahhhhhhh I missed this.. :D

LD, the difference is that, with a speeding ticket, is that you are being penalized for DOING something..

With the ObamaCare tax, you are being penalized for NOT doing something....

Further.....

"Further-The-Less is NOT a word! Stop using it!!!"
-Charlie Sheen, SPIN CITY

:D

Anyways, further... The action you are NOT doing has absolutely NO effect on anyone else...

To put it into it's proper context, it would be the same as if you refused to purchase a car from Government Motors..

Yes, you MIGHT need a car in the future.. It might be a GOOD or even a GREAT chance you will need a car in the future... But, for whatEVER reason you choose (this *IS* America, remember???) NOT to buy a car...

And, up until Obama and the Democrats totally shredded the US Constitution, such was YOUR RIGHT...

So, please.. Get off your high horse about this being moral, ethical and/or Constitutional....

It's NONE of those things...

It's a power grab by Democrats to FORCE the American people to do things the way DEMOCRATS want them done..

You DO remember the Great Democrat Shellacking Of 2010, right??

WHY do you think that happened???

Because the American people don't WANT to do things the way that DEMOCRATS want things done..

It's THAT simple...

On 7 Nov 2012, it will become a LOT more clearer for ya'all :D

Michale.....

Returning to that old song again, are you? For the umpteenth time... just because SCOTUS says the ACA's tax penalty is constitutional under federal taxing authority doesn't make the ACA a tax. Though you insist on misrepresenting it. It would be more accurate, (if you were interested in accuracy,) to say that people have the ability to raise their own taxes by refusing to purchase health insurance. The same could be said for speeding tickets, but, strangely, no one claims traffic laws are a tax.

"Because of this, if Dems read their cards right, I think they'd approach conflict differently. And relish it a bit more rather than agreeing to some so-called gentleman's agreement."

David,

You seem to be falling into the trap of advocating emulating the Republicans unethical behavior. While its certainly possible for Democrats to emulate Republicans and put partisan politics ahead of the national interest, doing their jobs, and governing, we'd all be worse off if they did, and we've enough problems already.

"These crises" are manufactured by Republicans so, yes, if people pay attention to what's really going on the Republicans look bad. But what is needed is the elimination of manufactured crises not Democrats extending and capitalizing on them, or worse, manufacturing crises of their own!

The manufactured debt ceiling crisis has already cost us our credit rating and the "fiscal cliff" threatens to seriously up the ante. Republicans may only care about gaming the system and thwarting the democratic process, but their tactics are not cost-free. They are do serious harm to the nation. Since Republicans have never shown any fiscal responsibility I wouldn't expect them to care, but Democrats should, we should, and somebody has to if this nation is to survive.

This idea of punting the "fiscal cliff" is interesting.

Why? Well, we know that Republicans don't make gentleman's agreement. To me, that means Republicans felt they had more to lose than Democrats.

The reason for this is that during these crises is one of the few times that what conservatives are doing tends to get much press. And when people do find out what conservatives are actually doing (as opposed to what they're saying), they're usually not too fond of it.

Because of this, if Dems read their cards right, I think they'd approach conflict differently. And relish it a bit more rather than agreeing to some so-called gentleman's agreement.

-David

Considering Obama's vow not to tax people below 200K (which is EXACTLY what ObamaCare does), I don't think it's a smart idea for Team Obama to remind voters about broken promises of no new taxes...

It's always an iffy proposition for a candidate to blame an opponent for something that they themselves are guilty of...

Michale.....

"Suppose Governor Romney said that he wants to drive a car from Boston to Los Angeles in 15 hours. And suppose some analysts employed tools of arithmetic to conclude that "If Governor Romney wants to drive from Boston to LA in 15 hours, it is mathematically impossible to avoid speeding." After all, the drive from LA to Boston is about 3,000 miles, so to take only 15 hours would require an average of 200 miles per hour. Certainly other road trips are possible — but the particular one proposed here is not.

With a few substitutions, this is almost exactly how the tax debate has evolved....Romney can't do all of the tax cut proposals he has advocated, remain revenue neutral, and avoid taxing households with income below $200,000 or cutting taxes for higher income households."

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/entertainment/2012/10/actor-who-created-big-bird-makes-about-314000-year/57774/

Apparently, Big Bird is one of those demon-spawn 1% that the Left keeps demonizing...

But yea... Let's keep giving him taxpayer money, as he (apparently) *really* needs it... :^/

Michale.....

My guess is Team Obama thought they would be facing the Clinton/Dole election and Camp Romney thought they would be facing the Carter/Reagan election.

Both sides likely figured that the election would be so utterly one-sided that the fiscal cliff wouldn't matter...

Although a vote for Romney is pretty much a guess at what he might do in all policy areas, not just this one ;)

As was a vote for Obama in 2008... :D

Let's hope the country fairs better under a Romney Administration...

Michale.....

Now both parties are running on the idea that this election is a referendum on both their proposals to deal with it - except, as you pointed out CW, they won't actually tell you what specifically those proposals are!

So they're having a 'referendum' where you have to guess what you think each party might do! Although a vote for Romney is pretty much a guess at what he might do in all policy areas, not just this one ;)

Very much appreciated. Regardless of beliefs, it IS the thought that counts..

How do you think the Ryan/Biden debate is gonna go down?

I honestly can't see Biden fairing better than Obama. On the other hand, forewarned is for-armed..

I think Biden has a LOT of pressure on him to put up a fight. Unfortunately for Biden, when the pressure is on, he seems to let his mouth run w/o engaging his brain first...

My prediction is, it's either going to be very very GOOD for Biden or very very bad.. I doubt there will be any middle ground...

Ryan's problem will likely not be holding his own against Biden. I honestly believe that the danger for Ryan is that he will be TOO aggressive and will appear to be bullying Biden, thereby generating sympathy for Biden and, by extension, Obama..

In short, the possible outcomes are all over the place...

"He's all over the place.....500ft....now 1500ft.....what an asshole"
-Air Traffic Controller, AIRPLANE

:D

Michale.....

How do you think the Ryan/Biden debate is gonna go down?

That should be PARKAY, not Parkway... My bust. :^/

Michale.....

obama's policies have tended toward the opposite of the values he professed the first time around, while romney's could be anything or its opposite, depending on what day of the week it is.

Really can't argue with that, except to say both are consummate politicians...

Which is NOT a compliment.. :^/

Michale

good to have you back michale, and my condolences on your loss. all this stuff about big bird, and anyone here still thinks the press corps is bright enough to notice the candidates' stances on real issues and values? obama's policies have tended toward the opposite of the values he professed the first time around, while romney's could be anything or its opposite, depending on what day of the week it is.

hear here, i third the motion, let's bring back perot!

~joshua

First Obama pisses off the Navy SEALS...

Now he pisses off Big Bird...

Who's next?? Mother Nature??

"It's not nice to fool Mother Nature"
-Parkway Margarine Commercial

On another note, here we have ANOTHER quote of Senator/Candidate Obama's coming back around to bite him on the arse..

"When a candidate can't run on his record, he makes a BIG election about little things"

Having said all that, I have to agree with CW about Ross Perot. 1992 was the first election that I was really paying attention and Perot really shook up the campaign. Plus he came up with the funniest political line ever...

"If you have a better plan well then I'm all ears.."

Perot was my kind of candidate in that he held BOTH political Partys in disdain...

Unfortunately, Perot's presence really didn't change things...

It's like one theory of time travel..

You can make minor alterations, turn left when you turned right before, but the flow of time is set and always moves inexorably towards a (temporally speaking) pre-determined outcome.. This theory was epitomized in Guy Pearce's rendition of HG Wells in the 2002 remake of THE TIME MACHINE... A thoroughly un-appreciated remake...

Perot made some ripples, but didn't change the course of the river...

And we are all the poorer for that...

Michale....

It's also where a press corps would come in handy, if we still had one. Unfortunately for America, they're way too busy talking about Big Bird.