http://predicthistunpredictpast.blogspot.com/2011/10/they-pretend-theyre-sane-and-rational_08.html

Has multiple parts. Great protest pics!

So, Democrats forget about obstructionism and just go with nuclear weapons..

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/186133-reid-triggers-nuclear-option-to-change-senate-rules-and-prohibit-post-cloture-filibusters

Yea, Democrats are pure as the driven snow, eh?? :^/

Michale.....

OK... So, what you are saying is that Democrats have never been obstructionist, Democrats have never threatened a government shutdown and Democrats have always been ready and willing to work with Republicans for the good of the country..

Well, I guess there just isn't any common ground possible because we're not even on the same planet...

Michale.....

Here's some proof that the world is flat ...
http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q="world+is+flat"

Here's some proof that the sky is green ...
http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=%22sky+is+green%22&fp=8a16d85d2ebfd8f1

This is great fun. I don't have to be specific about anything. Just pick 3 words and then claim the search result as my "facts".

Conservatives are religious ...
http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q="conservatives+are+religious"

Nice try about last week with Democrats. I'd believe it if not for the fact that all along Democrats have been trying to come up with compromises.

And who refused? Who holds the religious views? Any guesses?

-David

Last week...

The link I gave you showed a whole bunch of articles that explain and detailed Democrat obstructionism during the Bush years..

Democrats obstruct Republicans majorities.

Republicans obstruct Democrat majorities.

It's called "politics"... Maybe you've heard of it. :D

Perhaps if Democrats came up with something that was actually GOOD for the country, Republicans would be less inclined to obstruct it...

No guarantee though. :D

Michale.....

Still no specifics though of when Democrats refused to work with Republicans under Bush or shut down government or threatened to filibuster at every occasion.

I'm sure though that you'll come up with something though :)

Now, THERE is a plan I can get behind...

Schumer said families and businesses that earn between $250,000 and $1 million are "firmly in the middle class."

Gee whiz... Haven't I been saying this for the past year????

Michale.....

I am also constrained to point out that just last week, it was Democrats in the Senate threatening a government shut down because Republicans weren't going along with Democrats..

Republicans aren't doing anything that Democrats haven't done before...

This is the simple fact of the whole issue..

Michale....

Funny.. So was I... :D

Second, Democrats disagreed with many of Bush's ideas but they didn't try to shut down the government every week or filibuster every bill.

Really??

http://www.google.com/search?q=Democrats%20Obstruction%20Bush&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&source=hp&channel=np

The incompetence is coming from Republicans who don't care if government fails. They see that failure and incompetence as success.

Republicans are tying Democrats up in knots. So much so that it's Democrats who are obstructing Obama's signature Jobs Bill...

Doesn't sound very incompetent to me.. Seems to me that Republicans are VERY competent as the minority Party in the Senate... :D

Michale.....

As I indicated previously, I am fairly certain that NO GOVERNMENT is as bad an idea as ALL GOVERNMENT...

I might even go so far as to say that a BIG GOVERNMENT might be beneficial to Americans in general...

But THIS government isn't the one to make that case.. THIS government isn't the one to be that BIG GOVERNMENT.

Why??

Because they have failed at practically everything they have tried..

So, while I am not convinced you and Bashi and CW et al are completely wrong in what you propose, I am 1000% convinced that the Obama Administration is simply incapable of being a competent government.. I am equally convinced that the current crop of Democrat leaders are also not competent in the least...

So, until the Democratic Party can field a real varsity team, I say it's time to give the Republicans a chance again...

Like Obama said.. Americans were better off under Bush than they are under his leadership...

Michale.....

First of all, we're talking about Congress and elected politicians here. So let's stick to that discussion for a minute.

Second, Democrats disagreed with many of Bush's ideas but they didn't try to shut down the government every week or filibuster every bill.

Can you provide me a list of when Democrats in government refused to work with Republicans?

I don't seem to recall them ever holding budgets hostage or threatening to shut the government down or threatening to filibuster everything.

The incompetence is coming from Republicans who don't care if government fails. They see that failure and incompetence as success.

-David

You can't get pithy, just because Republicans do it better.

I'm not sure I can get "pithy" at all ;)

What would you say if Republicans met with Democrats and said,

"Look people. This terrorist problem is really out of control.. Our agenda is to allow the US government to listen in on every phone call in the world, read every email and postal mail in the world and generally just do away with the 4th Amendment..

That's our agenda and we don't want all you yahoo Democrats to obstruct that in any way.

Capiche???"

Now, as a Democrat, what would your reaction to that be??

My GUESS is it would be something about a cold day in hell or finding an orifice that gets little solar activity or some such response. Am I right??? :D

So, why do you think that Republicans should just roll over and help further the Democratic Party agenda??

"When people of good conscience have an honest dispute we sometimes must resort to this kind of adversarial system. If you refuse, then I'll rule summarily based upon my findings. Data's a toaster. Have him report to Commander Maddox immediately for experimental refit."
-Captain Phillipa Louvois, STAR TREK: THE NEXT GENERATION, The Measure Of A Man

Blaming Republicans for obstructing Democrats is like blaming the sun for rising or blaming me for being an arrogant prick..

It's what we do... :D

Michale.....

And, during the Bush years, the Left's only goal was to be Anti-Bush..

That's what politics are... I didn't hear much complaining about being obstructionist when it was Democrats being obstructionist...

I'm sorry, Michale. But I can't think of a single Democrat who has ever been like that. Even in the GWB years. Not all Republicans are this bad, but the numbers that are seem to be increasing.

Really??

Tell me..

How many ten thousand plus Anti War demonstrations have you seen recently???

How many assassination movies about President Obama have you seen recently??

How many accusations of war criminals and comparisons to Hitler have you seen of late??

The entire Left was so Anti-Bush, it wasn't even funny...

But now that THEIR guy is in the White House and doing the exact same things they screamed hysterically at Bush for, all of the sudden, those things are not commented on at all...

Do you want a list?? Because I can sure provide you with a list of actions to date from the Obama Adminsitration that would have had the Left howling if it had been done by a GOP Administration..

FAST AND FURIOUS

Extravagant vacations for the first family

Funding to Solyndra to the tune of over a billion (fortunately, Solyndra didn't get the second loan)

And so on and so on and so on...

Democrats were all about being obstructionist during the Bush years. That was ALL they were about...

Wanna peruse the CW Archives with me over the Bush years?? :D It will be an eye-opener for you, to be sure.. :D

You don't like obstructionist tactics when it comes from Republicans..

But you DEMAND obstructionist tactics for your Democrats...

Why hasn't Obama's jobs bill gone up for a vote from the Senate?? Because of obstructionist tactics from Democrats...

It's politics. Republicans do it. Democrats do it. You can't get pithy, just because Republicans do it better..

Well, you can.. :D But it sure doesn't help anything.. :D

Michale.....

My complaint is that their only goal is to be anti-Democrat. One which you yourself believe in.

This means that government stops or is "incompetent" as you would say because no compromise can ever be reached.

Not even one that is weighted 90% in favor of Republicans such as the Obama/Boehner compromise.

In fact, I'm not even sure they'd agree to a 100% compromise in their favor if Obama proposed it.

This means they don't care about issues or running government competently or how people are affected or our country.

All they are focused on is anti-Obama. It's kind of like a cult.

No one person can be as evil as conservatives make out Obama to be.

I'm sorry, Michale. But I can't think of a single Democrat who has ever been like that. Even in the GWB years. Not all Republicans are this bad, but the numbers that are seem to be increasing.

-David

You are confusing their platform with their mandate..

They have, however, done exactly what you claim and have obstructed government at every turn.

As had Democrats done under Bush....

Your complaint is that Republicans are more effective at obstructing Democrats than Democrats are at obstructing Republicans...

You want Republicans to "play nice" because Democrats can't handle it when Republicans are "mean"...

It's like asking the New England Patriots to ease off their game when they play the Jacksonville Jaguars...

Michale.....

I seem to recall that most of the Republicans I know in 2010 ran on a platform of "Jobs, Jobs, Jobs"

I don't believe their platform was "Stop the Democrats."

I believe that they said one thing to get elected, then did another.

Now to be fair, some Democrats have done similar things. The most notable in my mind being Obama's promise of change. The difference being we did get some change with Obama (though not the radical change we'd hoped for) while Republicans haven't done anything to help create jobs.

They have, however, done exactly what you claim and have obstructed government at every turn.

Maybe their campaign signs should have read: INCOMPETENT GOVERNMENT!

-David

Actually, they ARE obeying the people they represent.

It just so happened that the people who voted them into office (remember that shellacking??) and Norquist had the same goal in mind.

STOP THE ORGASM OF SPENDING OF THE DEMOCRATS...

Now, it can be argued that the people have changed their minds and there would be some validity to that argument.

But it is undeniable that Republicans are doing EXACTLY what they have been voted into office to do...

STOP THE DEMOCRATS...

Since we are speaking so much of Republican obstructionism, isn't it fair to touch on Democrat obstructionism??

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/obama-campaign-says-gop-blocking-jobs-bill-after-reid-blocks-jobs-bill_595022.html

I mean, seriously...

Seems like the biggest impediment to The ONE's rise to godhood are Democrats and not Republicans..

Michale.....

If all Democrats signed a pledge to someone like Grover, we'd never hear the end of how they were subservient to an outside interest.

But that's who Republicans are obeying. Not the people they represent. Grover Norquist.

Why are they working for Grover?

I wonder why more people don't bring that up. Probably because, like me, it happened a long time ago and they don't remember all the details and they have to go to their morning job rather than research :)

NOTE TO SELF: If you have more time, look more into the Articles of Confederation

-David

If Wall Street and the Bankers are evil and the root cause of ALL America's problems.....

WHY did the Obama administration bail them out??

Why not let them fail and build a better system from the ashes??

Hmmmm I think someone around here proposed that at the time.... Hmmmmmm Who could that have been???

:D

Michale.....

NEWS FLASH!!!!!!

Christie stated he will NOT be running for President!!

Whew!!! I am glad we got that straightened out!!!

:D

Michale.....

I don't see anything the Republicans doing now that Democrats didn't do when THEY had the majority...

They only thing I DO see is that Republicans do the opposition thing a lot more effective than Democrats do it...

But my overall guiding principle is this..

Democrats had a virtual lock on government for two years..

And they threw it all way by wasting all that time pushing CrapCare...

This is the undeniable fact of the here and now...

If the vote were held today, that's what I would remember when I enter the voting booth....

Things could change between now and Nov 2012... Things might actually get better for Democrats..

It's sure as hell that things can't get much worse...

Michale.....

Everyone's for "competent government," it almost goes without saying.

Kewl!! Once again, common ground.. :D

. I lay almost the entire blame for this on the Republicans in the Senate (with some left over for Harry Reid for being such a Caspar Milquetoast). Republicans have used "cloture" (or the "filibuster") more times in Obama's term alone than in OUR ENTIRE HISTORY AS A COUNTRY.

That's what the minority Party does...

That's what Democrats did when THEY were the minority Party...

I think your complaint has always been that the Democrats cave in too often...

So it seems to me that your are saying you are pissed because Republicans are BETTER at opposing Democrats than Democrats are at opposing Republicans...

But don't you see the inherent contradiction in blaming Republicans??

When Republicans had the White House and Congress, everything was the Republicans fault..

When Democrats had the White House and a near lock on ALL facets of government, everything was STILL the Republicans fault..

WTF???

If Democrats had the White House and each and every seat in the House and the Senate, would things STILL be the Republicans fault???

What's it gonna take for Democrats to man up and say, "Yea, we screwed the pooch. This is our fault"???

Look at the hear and now.. Republicans are pushing Obama's Jobs legislation. Obama said he wanted it done "NOW" so Republicans are obliging him...

And it's the DEMOCRATS that are blocking it!!!

So, how exactly is it the Republicans fault???

David,

The difference being the fanatics are running the GOP show ;)

Apparently, "fanatic" is in the eye of the beholder, no??

I mean, I could point to all the people who claim Obama is doing a good job and label them as "fanatics"...

Because even Obama himself has stated Americans are worse off now than they were under Bush...

Before complaining about the fanatics on the Right, perhaps time would be better spent reigning in the fanatics on the Left, no??

I'm just sayin'... :D

Our government, if you recall, is "We, the people"

Exactly...

But is it the PEOPLE that wanted CrapCare???

No, it was the Democrats..

So, you are dead on ballz accurate..

It *IS* "We the People..."

It is *NOT* "We, the Democrats"

Perhaps the LEFT should have remembered that when they were shoving legislation down the throats of the American people that were clearly against it..

NOW ya'all are complaining when the Right does the same thing....

All I'm saying, Michale, is if you want competent government, maybe you should think about voting for people who believe in government.

I would rather vote for people who believe that government has a place...

I *WON'T* vote for people who believe in government the way religious fanatics believe in god or they way children believe in Santa Claus...

Government is NOT the solution to every problem. In many MANY cases, government *IS* the problem...

Unfortunately, those on the Left do not seem to understand this very simple, but oh so important point..

Instead of people who believe government is the problem.

In the here and now, government IS the problem.

Or, to be more accurate, Obama's government is the problem....

The point is, ya'all still think it's the solution...

Michale.....

Apparently, even some Republicans have had enough of Grover Norquist:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/04/frank-wolf-grover-norquist-taxes_n_994206.html

Note that: "one of only six GOP House members not to have signed the pledge."

-CW

The difference being the fanatics are running the GOP show ;)

But conservatives, by and large, want a government that knows it's place.

Just like 99% of the people don't know their place? Who are conservatives to say anyone doesn't know their place?

Our government, if you recall, is "We, the people"

I don't recall it saying "We, the conservatives ..."

That sounds mighty arrogant to me.

But that aside. Conservatives sure seem to be interested in getting rid of all government except perhaps for the military.

At least they rage about it enough.

And that's gonna make for a completely different country than we've ever had before.

No more "We, the people ..."

More like "We, the wealthy of this country who have influenced your government ..."

Or am I wrong here?

All I'm saying, Michale, is if you want competent government, maybe you should think about voting for people who believe in government.

Instead of people who believe government is the problem.

-David

In re-reading that last comment, I have a correction:

Democrats had something like 7 or 8 months where they had 60 in the Senate, and unfortunately they spent almost the entire time dealing with healthcare reform.

That should read "...reform, or on vacation."

Heh.

-CW

Um, you need to check some facts here. Everyone's for "competent government," it almost goes without saying. But the government right now is not competent. I lay almost the entire blame for this on the Republicans in the Senate (with some left over for Harry Reid for being such a Caspar Milquetoast). Republicans have used "cloture" (or the "filibuster") more times in Obama's term alone than in OUR ENTIRE HISTORY AS A COUNTRY. Add in the times they used it from 2006-08, and it's quite easy to see where the incompetence is coming from. Democrats had something like 7 or 8 months where they had 60 in the Senate, and unfortunately they spent almost the entire time dealing with healthcare reform. But the over-use of the filibuster is absolutely unprecedented in our history, and does not bode well for either party in the future (if you don't think Democrats are going to do the same thing from now on if the GOP takes the Senate, then I've got a bridge to sell you). Actually, when this situation does arise, who are you going to blame then for incompetence? Republicans, or those Democrats who are "blocking what the American people want!" I know which Fox News will be blaming at the time....

Looking at our examples in the 1950s and 1960s, the filibuster was RARELY used back then. Even on EXTREMELY contentious bills such as the one which set up Medicaid and Medicare -- the minority allowed a straight up-or-down vote, even though they were ENRAGED about the bill itself. The filibuster was used (shamefully, by Southern Democrats) to continue Jim Crow institutional racism as long as possible, but it simply wasn't used on EVERY SINGLE FREAKIN' VOTE. This is the main difference between then and now. Government was competent back then, because the Senate actually worked under gentlemen's agreements that the filibuster would only VERY VERY RARELY be used. That is the main difference.

How you can not see that the Republicans are now so unreasonable that they actually VOTED DOWN a proclamation HONORING MOTHERS' DAY (for Pete's sake), just to score a cheap political point, is beyond me.

Going back further in history (sorry, I've been researching all morning), we once did have a government that knew its place, and left things up to the states. It was a current-day Libertarian's dream -- the federal gummint didn't have the power to tax unless the states said OK, they were kept on a VERY short leash, and was as small as possible. Passing any legislation required a 2/3 vote -- ANYthing!

This period was during the Articles of Confederation. It didn't work. That's why we began giving the federal government a lot more power. Because trying it the other way simply did NOT work.

And Grover Norquist is not some sort of "fanatic" in the sense you mean. Yes, he is fanatical, but no, he is not some sort of fringe guy that nobody pays attention to. Something like 97 percent of sitting Republicans in Congress has signed his "no taxes, ever!" pledge. That is not some fringe guy, that is the heart and soul of the GOP today. And he was the one who described what he wanted as "make government small enough to drown in my bathtub." There are fringe folks on the Left, but they don't have NEARLY as much power with the party as a whole as the fringe guys on the Right.

Anyway, sorry for the rant, gotta write today's thing now...

-CW

Obama seeks debt collector proposal.....
To the dismay of consumer groups and the discomfort of Democrats, President Barack Obama wants Congress to make it easier for private debt collectors to call the cellphones of consumers delinquent on student loans and other billions owed the federal government.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_OBAMA_DEBT_COLLECTORS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-10-04-06-36-08

I guess Obama is a warrior for the middle class that doesn't owe money...

Is there anyone in the middle class that DOESN'T owe money???

With "warriors" like this, who needs the Huns, eh?? :^/

Michale.....

Good.. Common ground...

Trouble is that many conservatives want no government. They want to "drown government in a bathtub" to quote Grove Norquist.

There are always fanatics...

You can't deny that the Left has their fair share....

No one wants "NO" government.. Except maybe the anarchists of OWS...

But conservatives, by and large, want a government that knows it's place...

CrapCare proves that the Obama government does not know it's place...

Michale.....

Yea, but the 2008 election was as far from "people not believing in government" as can possibly be...

So you can't blame the people for the government's incompetence..

Obama's administration simply has not been competent...

About the *only* thing that Obama has done right in the last three years was to extend and expand Bush's CounterTerror policies...

Michale.....

If you elect people who don't believe in government, don't be surprised when you get an incompetent government.

Competent government. I like how that sounds. I think you hit the nail on the head, Michale.

That's what people want. I'm not sure if I feel ok about this, but I'm with you 100% on this one. I want a competent government.

Trouble is that many conservatives want no government. They want to "drown government in a bathtub" to quote Grove Norquist.

And that's why we don't have a competent government. Because we've elected so many people who don't believe in government.

If you want a competent government, then you need to elect people who believe in government. Not people who believe in destroying it.

-David

Perhaps.... Perhaps not...

One can easily say that Clinton built up a budget surplus because regulations were loosened up allowing for the Dot Com explosion...

But the Dot Com explosion was an outlier and as such, you can't use it as a reliable template for future events...

Past performance is not indicative of future trends...

Innovation often comes from government. Liberal government.

No...

Innovation often comes from COMPETENT government..

We don't have a competent government. Therefore giving them more money is just moronic...

Michale.....

Perhaps those leaders were able to be successful leaders because they had the appropriate resources at their disposal.

If we want another Internet or another space program (which I think is a great idea. let's find the next big innovation or let's restart the space program) it's going to cost money.

Now you may argue that this should come from the private sector, but for many industries, they can make more short term money by fighting AGAINST innovation. Think the energy industry. Think the financial industry.

Innovation often comes from government. Liberal government. The space program and Internet are two great examples.

-David

I concede the point to both CW and you..

I will concede the point conditionally that, in the past, higher taxes lead to increased productivity.. I don't have the knowledge or expertise to refute the point, so I will conditionally accept that, all things being equal, higher taxes may lead to increase productivity..

That was then and this is now..

We had responsible leaders back then and things turned out well, as history shows.. We weren't, to the best of my knowledge, in a recession in the 50s and 60s so higher taxes WAS the correct choice...

MY point is, what has the Obama Administration done to warrant the belief that history will repeat itself??

My other point is that raising taxes in the middle of a recession is a moronic step to take..

Don't take my word for it, listen to Obama...

“The last thing you want to do is raise taxes in the middle of a recession because that would just suck up, take more demand out of the economy and put business in a further whole.”

This government, in the here and now, doesn't deserve more money until it can show the American people that it can handle the money it already gets..

Might as well give an M-16 to a chimp...

To me, it's really that simple...

Michale.....

If so, what are those beliefs based on...

at least for myself, it's based on an extensive body of evidence.

I'll have to be brief since I need to be at work in an hour, but as CW pointed out in [21], the time with the most upper-income tax money under government control was our most successful as a nation. to add contrast to the point, the great depression happened at the time when the least upper-income tax money was under government control. you can call it an aberration or suggest confounding variables if you wish, but that's what happened.

when we talk about reward and punishment, it strays into my area of expertise. a stimulus (psych, not econ) functions as a reward when the antecedent behavior (productivity) increases. it functions as a punishment when the behavior decreases. unless they are at communist levels, high taxes do not function as a punishment. i say they don't because they haven't. and unless the money saved is needed to buy actual goods and services, low taxes do not function as a reward. i say they don't because they haven't.

if we're defining reward and punishment in lay terms, then it wades into the murky waters of what people deserve. do people necessarily deserve what they get? vis-a-vis last week's discussion, we've established that some do and some don't. just as among the rich we have our bill gates's and our paris hiltons, among the poor we have our loafers who sit around the house eating cheese puffs and our smart, hard-working folk who just never caught a break.

but at least functionally, taxes in a market economy are neither punishment nor reward for anyone who has all their basic needs met. as to why that's the case, i'll leave speculation for a time when i have time to speculate.

So you really believe rich people should pay less than everyone else?

Well, let's see...

If I make 10,000 a year and you make 10,000,000 a year, you are rich and I am poor..

If we both pay 10% in taxes, I pay $1,000 and you pay $1,000,000 in taxes..

So, the rich (you) are paying MORE in taxes than the poor (me)....

So, in essence, the rich DO pay more in taxes than the poor...

I'll address your "loophole" argument after you make it. :D

The problem is, the rich still have a lot of money left, so you think that they should pay even more...

And therein lies my whole beef with the Left's "STICK IT TO THE RICH" mantra...

It's a faulty conclusion based on an emotional argument...

Michale.....

As I am wont to do....

"Welcome to the party, pal!!!"
-John McClane, DIE HARD

:D

Michale, you provide no citations, and a bunch of drivel.

The way the system is set up here, it loses the impact if one posts multiple links as they post is held in moderation..

But rest assured, everything I have posted as factual, IS factual and I do have the cites to back it up. Oh sure, I might forget to dot an 't' or cross an 'i' now and again. Like when I thought the Muslim population was 10 billion.. :D But, that was a minor typo that didn't negate the overall validity of the original point..

If there is a particular point that confuses you, by all means, point it out. :D I'll be happy to give you cites of the facts til the cows come home.. :D

Really, though you nailed it when you said "Only when the majority is wrong"

Exactly. Unfortunately, the Left only supports the majority, when the majority supports the Left's agenda.. CrapCare is a perfect example of this.

To be fair, the Right is the same way...

Hint: When everybody thinks you are crazy, they are probably correct. Not the other way around.

I thought we had just agreed that the majority is not always right?? :D

History is replete with great people "everybody" thought was crazy.

People like Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr...

Not that I am comparing myself to them.. But, in their time, "everbody" thought they were crazy too.

Again, welcome to the party... :D You'll find things are a bit different around here. We don't resort to personal attacks and the like. We argue the message w/o trying to denigrate the messenger..

You'll catch on.. :D

David,

What are you talking about? No one has any plan that says we should tax millionaires at 100%.

Well, that's good.. Because, as we have established, even taking everything from people who make 10 mil+ won't put a dent in the debt/deficit...

But I was being facetious..

In your example, you claim that Cain's plan is flawed because the people who make less have to pay more..

I say that is an incentive for people to be more successful.. More successful means more productive. More productive is better for the economy...

So you really believe rich people should pay less than everyone else?

I believe that all Americans should be given an incentive to succeed.. Should not be penalized when they do succeed..

Do you believe that the government should penalize success? Do you believe that the government can use money more wisely than a successful businessman??

If so, what are those beliefs based on...

Keep in mind, they're sitting on a trillion or two in cash that they're NOT creating jobs with right now.

As has been established (and heretofore not refuted) the reason that they are sitting on a trillion or two and not creating jobs is because they have no confidence or stability in the economy or the Obama administration.

And whose fault is that??

Why should the Government be given MORE money??

Think of the US Government as a recalcitrant teenager.. Have they shown that they can be responsible with money? Use it wisely??

No, not even a little bit..

So, until the snot-nosed brat can learn to better manage their finances, they shouldn't be getting a raise in their allowance...

CW,

It's the media making the weight argument, not Democrats.

Well, of course. Because, overall, the media leans Left.. :D

No political leader will go on record as saying Christie is too fat to be president. They simply let the Lefty media pundits do their dirty work for them..

Do a google for 'Liberals Christie Fat'... Once again, I am amazed of the disconnect between today's so-called liberals and the liberals of my childhood...

Today's liberals seem to be as vindictive and hateful and hurtful as they accuse conservatives of being..

Oh, one last thing. The internet was invented by your tax dollars at work. It was a government project. Look it up (see: DARPA and ARPANet...).

So, countries that slash government spending are the ones who don't invent the internet.

DARPA was military spending.. As we all know, military spending is a law unto itself..

Maybe it's a bit pollyannish of a view, but I don't view military spending in the same venue as government spending..

Government spending is things like CrapCare and paying millions so the First Lady and First Kids can go on a European junket and paying trillions for EBTs so that people can buy water bottles, empty out the water, return for deposit to buy cigarettes...

THAT'S the kind of thing I think of when I think of the kind of "government spending" that can be done away with...

It's funny how the Left looked after every red cent during the Bush years.. But now the Left simply ignores all the extravagance that "their" guy does in the White House...

Anyways, my example to David was simply using his example to make my point...

The fact is, this Administration has a desire to penalize success. If you succeed, you get gutted in taxes and penalties..

What makes ANYONE here think that the government can use the money better than the people who EARNED the money??

Have they shown any propensity in that regard to date?? Not on a hot day in hell, they haven't..

So, I am at a loss to understand why the conventional wisdom around here is to give the government MORE money to burn and waste...

So, countries that slash government spending are the ones who don't invent the internet.

With this, you DO make a valid point... The Obama Administration completely gutting NASA and denying space to the US is a prime example of the WRONG king of slashing of government spending..

Perhaps if Obama was more concerned about the exceptionalism of the USA and less concerned about the Democratic Party agenda, we would have a souped up NASA instead of a Doomed-To-Fail CrapCare.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I am not against government spending in and of itself..

I am simply saying that the Obama Administration has proven time and time again that it is, apparently, incapable of spending wisely.

Therefore, until the administration gets their sh.... er.. act together, giving them MORE money is the very definition of insanity...

Michale.....

Oh, one last thing. The internet was invented by your tax dollars at work. It was a government project. Look it up (see: DARPA and ARPANet...).

So, countries that slash government spending are the ones who don't invent the internet.

But again, nice try.

:-)

-CW

It's the media making the weight argument, not Democrats.

Michale [16] -

Actually, you should check your history. The 1950s were one of the most productive eras in American business history. Top tax rate was over 90%. Tax rates in the 1960s were lower, but still mighty high on the top income brackets (compared to now). And that's when we went to the moon, pal. Nice try. Also, Clinton raised top tax rates. A decade of prosperity and jobs followed. Raising tax rates does not kill the economy -- history shows exactly the opposite.

-CW

What are you talking about? No one has any plan that says we should tax millionaires at 100%.

Please try to keep the discussion to real, actual plans like Mr. Cain's.

So, what you are saying is that the more you make, the less you pay in taxes.

Mr. Cain's plan is that the people who make the most should pay the least.

Absurd.

It actually REWARDS success instead of penalizing success.

So you really believe rich people should pay less than everyone else?

Keep in mind, they're sitting on a trillion or two in cash that they're NOT creating jobs with right now.

But we should just give them more ... no strings attached.

Really ...

That sounds like a big fat corporate giveaway to me. I thought you were against the last bailout?

-David

First off, welcome to the site. Sorry I've been remiss about approving your comments -- the first comments you make must be approved (this cuts down on comment spam), but your comments should now appear instantly. Unless you post two or more links per comment, which will also be automatically held for approval.

Like I said, welcome to the site, and sorry for the delay.

-CW

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/10/03/obama_american_people_not_better_off_than_they_were_four_years_ago.html

Obama agrees with me.. :D

Michale......

Good quote.. :D

Michale.....

I mean, let's turn it around..

If you make 40k a year, you'd be taxed on your consumption or 4% of what you make.

If you make 1 million a year, you'd be taxed on 100% of what you make.

Here, the incentive is to make as little as possible so as not to be taxed heavily...

There is actually incentive to make LESS money, be LESS productive so as not to get into the higher tax bracket and lose EVERYTHING you earn...

Countries like that don't land on the moon. Countries like that don't invent the Internet.. Countries like that stagnate and die...

Who wants to be THAT country???

Michale.....

If you make 1 million a year, you'd be taxed on 4% of what you make.

So, what you are saying is that the more you make, the less you pay in taxes...

Hmmmmmmmm

Seems to me then, this is an incentive to be more successful and make more money...

The more money you make, the less you pay in taxes... Good for you..

The more successful you are, the more you provide jobs and such. Good for the economy...

It actually REWARDS success instead of penalizing success...

Seems like a win/win to me... :D

Michale.....

It makes up for lost income and corporate taxes through a revenue tax or consumption tax.

Think about it like this. When it comes to necessities, people tend to consume about the same amount or at least within the same ballpark. Food, shelter, cars, etc.

Let's call this average consumption number $40k a year just for argument. This says the average person spends approximately 40k a year. It may be higher or lower but just for the sake of argument.

If you make 40k a year, you'd be taxed on your consumption or 100% of what you make.

If you make 100k a year, you'd be taxed on 40% of what you make.

If you make 1 million a year, you'd be taxed on 4% of what you make.

You get the drift.

This is what is known as a regressive tax or another way to put it would be a massive gift basket to the wealthy.

Who gets the biggest tax breaks from Cain's plan? The rich.

I've tried Godfather's pizza. It's not very good and I wouldn't buy it again. And I'm certainly not buying his 9-9-9 plan.

-David

"I can't go for that. No can do." -Hall & Oates

I just don't agree with any of his positions. At least none I've seen yet.

Careful... If conservatives say that about Obama, they are labeled "racist"... :D

Why exactly don't you like the 9/9/9/ plan?? How exactly does it favor the wealthy??

Michale....

Like? Yes. Cain's very likable. Personally, I think he comes off as funny and authentic. He's the GOP candidate I'd most want to sit down and have a beer with.

I just don't agree with any of his positions. At least none I've seen yet.

His 9/9/9 plan favors the wealthy even more than our current policies.

You don't like Cain???

Michale.....

:)

-David

I dunno how "impressive" these protesters are...

http://www.infowars.com/occupy-wall-street-protesters-call-totalitarian-government-re-election-of-obama/

Seem to be more moronic anarchists to me... :D

Michale......

Really, though you nailed it when you said "Only when the majority is wrong"

Hint: When everybody thinks you are crazy, they are probably correct. Not the other way around.

Once again, I have to point out the disconnect between today's liberals/progressives and the liberals of my childhood..

I simply cannot imagine a liberal from the 60s or 70s making an issue out of someone's weight and thinking it was a viable topic on contention......

Simply one more example of how today's liberals and progressives are simply conservatives with a different agenda...

Present company excepted, of course... :D

Michale.....

It's effective.. :D

You want to know what I call "class warfare"? Attacking Medicaid.

Something MUST be done about our spending..

We can take ALL the money away from the rich that they have and it won't even make a SMALL dent in our debt/deficit...

The ONLY way to get things under control is to cut spending..

This is the sad fact of this country brought to you by the orgasmic out of control spending of Democrats...

Making Granny pay

Many "Grannies" are Tea Party people. They WANT to pay... :D

Hay, if ya'all can use the meme that the Rich *WANT* to pay more taxes, I can use the meme that "Grannies" want to pay more for medicare.. :D

"You want to know what I call 'class warfare'? Attacking Social Security. From Rick Perry calling it a, quote, Ponzi scheme, unquote,

Uh.... Sorry to burst ya'alls protective bubble, but Social Security *IS*, by definition, a ponzi scheme...

I mean, look at it. People pay money into SS, which in turn goes out to people who are *ON* SS... This money is paid in with the expectation (but not guarantee) that the payer will receive a return at some future date..

How is this NOT a ponzi scheme??

Note I am not arguing the merits of Social Security..

But, hell.. Let's at least be honest and call a spade a spade..

Union busting

I addressed this above, but I just wanted to follow up..

With the current tactics that the Unions employ today, they DESERVE to be "busted"...

Yes, Unions have contributed positively to our society..

So have corporations...

Yes, not all Unions employ despicable tactics to achieve their agenda..

But neither do all corporations...

So, why is it that, according to the Left, all Unions are the epitome of virtue, pure as the driven snow, yet all corporations are the epitome of evil and have sold their souls to Lucifer??

"Looks like the pure driven snow has a few tire tracks thru it..."
-Janet Wood, THREES COMPANY

:D

How about we agree that SOME corporations are good for the country and do right by their workers and their customers and some Unions are evil incarnate and DESERVE to be busted..

Ya think the Left could agree with that???

When Monkees fly outta my butt... :^/

The Republican Party is right now engaged in a state-by-state effort to combat what they call 'voter fraud' -- a problem that does not even exist.

Vote fraud doesn't exist??

Well, someone needs to let the Hysterical Left know about this. Because they are always screaming voter fraud and voter dis-enfranchisement when THEIR agenda is threatened...

Regardless, are you referring to the push to have all people show ID when they vote??

What's wrong with that??

Bucking the mainstream

Only when the mainstream is A}wrong or 2}doesn't have all the facts.. :D

Holding disaster relief hostage

Near as I read, it was Democrats who screwed over Americans on the disaster relief.. Reid threatened government shutdown because Dems didn't want to compromise on the legislation...

It's just as I said during the Debt Ceiling debate.. Democrats only want compromise FROM Republicans, not WITH Republicans...

For Democrats, compromise means "Republicans agree with everything we say and do.."

But then again, compromise for Republicans means, "Democrats agree with everything we say and do"....

Whatta political system we have, eh?? :D

Let's just do away with all political Partys....
:D

Michale.....

This was, in fact, the original class warfare in the United States of America, and it used to involve a whole lot of violence.

As opposed to today when it's the UNIONS who are being violent??

Armed Union members TAKING HOSTAGES fer chreest's sake!!

THESE are the people that Democrats defend???

WHY???

Michale.....

Shouldn't that be 'one of the reddest of the Blue Dogs'?

see if you can picture a Democrat saying any of it

Why yes. Yes, I can.

You must have missed last week's TP5 and TP6. Here's number 6 in full (I'd still pay money to see someone like Jim Webb say this on the air):

"I find it seriously offensive for you to sit there and accuse the President of the United States and his political party of waging any kind of, quote, warfare, unquote. Since you seem to have forgotten that our country has brave men and women fighting in real warfare overseas, allow me to remind you of this fact. Is this how your party 'supports the troops'? We are at war, Sir. We have troops in the field who are dying. For you to make the accusation that their Commander-in-Chief is waging warfare against your political party is downright obscene, Sir. You and your party's continued use of the term 'class warfare' seriously disrespects the brave men and women who are currently serving their country, and if you were a decent human being, you would immediately offer them all an apology. Sir."

-CW