I thought it was irresponsible and reckless to use shutting down the government as a political bargaining chip???

Oh wait..

It's only irresponsible and reckless when REPUBLICANS do it..

My mistake.... :^/

Michale.....

But this is just beyond the pale...

Recession????

http://houston.culturemap.com/newsdetail/09-21-11-09-26-michelle-obama-dazzles-wearing-diamond-bangles-by-h-towns-katie-decker-23/

What recession.... :^/

I think I learned about this kinda stuff at OCS..

How *NOT* to show leadership.....

Wearing $42,000 bracelets while millions of people are out of work and millions upon millions more are below the poverty line surely qualifies on how NOT to set an example..

Michale.....

That's ALWAYS been my endeavor.

To remind everyone that, when all is said and done, we are all Americans and we should keep that foremost in our minds, myself included...

Michale.....

I'm glad to hear you'll be talking to the people who are here and not screaming about the horrible "Hysterical Left" anymore.

Best of luck in your new endeavor!
-David

Let me put it to you this way.

If I thought for just one iota of a second that Democrats were actually sincere about wanting to help this country by taxing the rich, I would be all over it like white on crap... Or stink on rice... Or something like that.

Because yes, I am idealistic enough to believe that, if you have more, you should give more.. But forcing people to be magnanimous and generous is simply not the way to do it..

So, I would be completely onboard with you if it was actually a case of helping this country thru tough times..

But the actions of our political "leaders" are just a bunch of fear-mongering class warfare Us vs Them crap that is only meant to serve the Democratic Party at the expense of this country.

This being the case, I simply WILL NOT support it...

It's not that I don't agree with you that the rich should give more, even though they give the most right now..

It's that I won't be part and parcel to a Party that pits Americans against Americans for political gain...

Michale.....

My mistake..

So, there is no push to tax the rich in the middle of a recession..

Whew!! Glad to hear that..

Because, like Obama said, raising taxes in the middle of a recession is just moronic...

:D

Michale.....

Last month, it was the GOP who was the epitome of evil for threatening a government shutdown over a compromise..

Reid warns shutdown is possible
http://thehill.com/homenews/news/182679-reid-government-shutdown-is-possible

This month, it's the Democrats who are not compromising...

Remind me again the difference between Republicans and Democrats??

I seem to have forgotten... :D

Michale....

It's your tax the rich case. I'm not arguing that at all. At this point, you appear to be arguing with someone else who isn't here.

-David

Do you think that giving more money to the Federal Government, thru taxes, without any more fiscal discipline will make things better?

Michale....

OK, good. So we are agreed that Obama's actions are going to be hurting the very people he claims to want to help..

That it's not accidental collateral damage. That Obama is purposely going after more money from Seniors and Military Retirees..

At least we got that settled. :D

Removing regulations caused the financial crisis.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

Here's the thing. Your whole "TAX THE RICH" case is based on a series of facts and a completely off the wall assumption..

FACT: This country's economy is in the toilet.

FACT: The rich have a lot of money.

Since the Rich have a lot of money and the economy is in the toilet, the conclusion is that it must be the fault of the rich that this country's economy is in the toilet..

BEDEMIR: Quiet, quiet. Quiet! There are ways of telling whether
she is a witch.
CROWD: Are there? What are they?
BEDEMIR: Tell me, what do you do with witches?
VILLAGER #2: Burn!
CROWD: Burn, burn them up!
BEDEMIR: And what do you burn apart from witches?
VILLAGER #1: More witches!
VILLAGER #2: Wood!
BEDEMIR: So, why do witches burn?
[pause]
VILLAGER #3: B--... 'cause they're made of wood...?
BEDEMIR: Good!
CROWD: Oh yeah, yeah...
BEDEMIR: So, how do we tell whether she is made of wood?
VILLAGER #1: Build a bridge out of her.
BEDEMIR: Aah, but can you not also build bridges out of stone?
VILLAGER #2: Oh, yeah.
BEDEMIR: Does wood sink in water?
VILLAGER #1: No, no.
VILLAGER #2: It floats! It floats!
VILLAGER #1: Throw her into the pond!
CROWD: The pond!
BEDEMIR: What also floats in water?
VILLAGER #1: Bread!
VILLAGER #2: Apples!
VILLAGER #3: Very small rocks!
VILLAGER #1: Cider!
VILLAGER #2: Great gravy!
VILLAGER #1: Cherries!
VILLAGER #2: Mud!
VILLAGER #3: Churches -- churches!
VILLAGER #2: Lead -- lead!
ARTHUR: A duck.
CROWD: Oooh.
BEDEMIR: Exactly! So, logically...,
VILLAGER #1: If... she.. weighs the same as a duck, she's made of wood.
BEDEMIR: And therefore--?
VILLAGER #1: A witch!

-Monty Python And The Holy Grail

I know I know.. It's long.. Put it shows my point quite nicely...

This economy is not in the toilet because the rich have more money than others.

This economy is in the toilet because our Democrat leaders were more interested in pursuing their own Party agenda and less interested in what's best for this country.

THAT is why our economy is in the toilet. THAT is why their our no jobs to be found.. THAT is why our credit rating was downgraded..

And now, you are proposing that more of the same will fix things, make them better??

Your logic escapes me. :D

I seem to recall it did. Removing regulations caused the financial crisis. And the GOP caused our credit rating to drop too with their "faux crisis" when the ratings agencies worried that we wouldn't pay our bills because of political intransigence.

So the fact that Democrats refused to discipline their spending had NOTHING to do with it, eh? :D

Well, I am certainly glad you are not being partisan about it. :D

The rating agencies weren't concerned that the US "wouldn't" pay it's bills. The ratings agencies were concerned that the us *COULDN'T* pay it's bills, due to Democrats and their orgasmic spending.

And how did the rating agencies get the idea that the US couldn't pay it's bills??

From the Democrats and their "THE SKY IS FALLING" fear-mongering. Even without the borrowing increase, the USA could still have met it's financial obligations..

Besides, the GOP was just following OBAMA's advice from a few years ago. You remember. Obama himself said that increasing the Debt ceiling was an indication of poor leadership..

Boy, he sure called it, eh?? :D

Michale.....

Let's start with your own article you posted earlier: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/New-government-fees-pepper-apf-4120540659.html?x=0&.v=2

Or are you going to retract that now?

It also includes cuts to Medicare and Medicaid that the GOP asked for as well as reductions in spending on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Granted, the GOP plan wasn't all that either... But at least it didn't totally bankrupt this country and result in the reduction of the US credit rating.

I seem to recall it did. Removing regulations caused the financial crisis. And the GOP caused our credit rating to drop too with their "faux crisis" when the ratings agencies worried that we wouldn't pay our bills because of political intransigence.

-David

I never said there was a conspiracy... I simply say that if anyone doesn't pay extra taxes voluntarily, then they have absolutely NO moral authority to preach to the masses..

And no one, to date, has come up with any logical reason to dispute this..

- I don't see how this could be "sticking it to the rich" when it asks something of everyone.

Really?? What is Obama asking from anyone BUT the rich???

- Screaming "class warfare" is a Republican tactic. One that's been very successful, but one that in this case doesn't match reality.

Actually, until recently, it was a Democrat tactic...

- Democrats proposed a balanced plan that asks something from everyone in order to help our economy and bring down the deficit.

1.5 TRILLION in new taxes is NOT a "balanced" plan, period...

Tell ya what. When Democrats get rid of CrapCare, THEN I'll believe they are serious about deficit reduction.

The plan conservatives have offered is a plan that asks for sacrifice ONLY from the middle class and poor.

For example??

Can you list ANY sacrifices??

The only sacrifices that are being asked is that Democrats reign in their orgasm of spending..

Seriously, do you think that this country can just spend and spend and spend it's way out of this??

Greece tried that. Look what happened to them..

When are ya'all going to realize that the Democrat's vision of our economy simply won't work...

Granted, the GOP plan wasn't all that either... But at least it didn't totally bankrupt this country and result in the reduction of the US credit rating..

That was ALL Democrat...

Remember, the FIRST thing you have to do when in an economic hole...

STOP DIGGING......

Why isn't that understood by our Democrat leaders???

Michale.....

http://veracitystew.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Sign_Class-War.jpg

Let's see. You've run the gamut from: Dems are waging class warfare to talking about some vague and shadowy Democratic agenda to a rant about Warren Buffett sending you a million dollars to bringing George Soros into the equation back to Dems are trying to stick it to the rich.

Let me simplify things for you ...
- There's no conspiracy involving George Soros.
- I don't see how this could be "sticking it to the rich" when it asks something of everyone.
- Screaming "class warfare" is a Republican tactic. One that's been very successful, but one that in this case doesn't match reality.
- Democrats proposed a balanced plan that asks something from everyone in order to help our economy and bring down the deficit.

Obama offered a plan which asks something from everyone. That is, it's based on shared sacrifice.

The plan conservatives have offered is a plan that asks for sacrifice ONLY from the middle class and poor.

Seriously, that's the Republican plan: Cut services to the middle class and poor and give more tax breaks to the wealthy.

One party has a balanced plan, the other is offering a plan that benefits their corporate donors.

Who's really waging "class warfare" again?

-David

It's a great political slogan...

But like most political slogans, it comes up wanting, once the facts are examined...

If Democrats want to support a campaign that sticks it to the rich, solely based on the fact that they can afford it, more power to them..

Have it it.. Have a ball..

But stop with the BS that it's about making the rich pay "their fair share"...

When you look at the FACT that the rich already pay MORE than their fair share, PLUS the fact that it's the rich who drive this economy it's apparent to any political agnostic that the Democrats are simply pushing an agenda that punishes the rich for their success and gives the Democrats more money to spend on THEIR own agenda..

An agenda that, we have readily seen, is NOT in the best interests of this country...

Michale.....

Look at the FACTS...

On average, the wealthiest people in America pay a lot more taxes than the middle class or the poor, according to private and government data. They pay at a higher rate, and as a group, they contribute a much larger share of the overall taxes collected by the federal government.

The 10 percent of households with the highest incomes pay more than half of all federal taxes. They pay more than 70 percent of federal income taxes, according to the Congressional Budget Office.
http://news.yahoo.com/fact-check-rich-taxed-less-secretaries-070642868.html

THAT is why this is a "STICK IT TO THE RICH" issue..

The Left wants more money for their agenda and their attitude is "The Rich can afford it"...

Is that really fair as you see fair??

If THAT is fair, then why doesn't Buffet send me $1million?? After all, he can afford it, right?? :D

Michale....

Two reasons..

1. I know it's all just political BS.. The people making the laws *ARE* the rich... They are not about to pass any legislation that will actually make themselves pay more..

B. It's being footloose and fancy free with someone else's money... If the rich on the Left are so sure paying more taxes is the right thing to do, WHY DON'T THEY DO IT??? Let them put THEIR money where their mouths are. THEN we'll see how well it works...

It's all pure unadulterated political hypocrisy...

And THAT is why it bugs me so much...

It's already been proven that trickle down theory doesn't create jobs. Just look at the Bush tax cuts. They didn't create new jobs.

And look at the Porkulus spending.. THAT not only did not create new jobs, it put the whole of the economy in the toilet...

I just want to be sure about this though. Are you going on the record and saying everyone should be asked to contribute but the wealthy?

Are you on record as saying that the wealthy do NOT contribute???

All I am saying is that raising taxes in recession is moronic..

And President Obama agrees with me. At least he DID, back in '09...

Is that what you're saying? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying.

All I am saying is that if it is such a grand and perfect solution to the problem, why don't the Soroses and the Obamas and the Buffets of this country show us poor unenlightened how it works??

I'll tell you why..

Because it WON'T work...

All it will do is give the Democrats more money to spend stupidly...

All the taxes in the world will NOT help, if the SPEND SPEND SPEND mindset is not changed...

It's like giving a teenager more and more money that they blow on completely asinine crap..

Will giving that teenager MORE money teach them how to manage their money better??

Of course it won't...

Why do you think that giving more money to the government will fix things?

Has it EVER worked out that way in the past??

Michale.....

It's already been proven that trickle down theory doesn't create jobs. Just look at the Bush tax cuts. They didn't create new jobs.

I just want to be sure about this though. Are you going on the record and saying everyone should be asked to contribute but the wealthy?

It should only come from poor people and the middle class?

Is that what you're saying? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying.

And that sounds more like class warfare than anything Obama has proposed.

-David

http://entertainment.blogs.foxnews.com/2011/09/20/civil-war-era-photo-eerily-resembles-nicolas-cage-sparks-vampire-rumors/?test=faces

Who knew that Nicholas Cage had a time machine!! :D

Michale.....

Nader is a conservative?? Taylor Marsh is a conservative??

You need to get out more, David. :D

From what I can tell, the tax increases are all through closing corporate loopholes and doing things like ending the Bush tax cuts on the wealthiest (not everyone).

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/New-government-fees-pepper-apf-4120540659.html?x=0&.v=2

Michale.....

Oh come now. I may have been born at night, but it wasn't LAST night. :D

That is EXACTLY what it's about.

We have already established that the "rich" already pay MORE than their "fair" share of the taxes..

Remember?? The top 20% pay 80% of the taxes??

The Left has the "the rich can afford to pay more so they should pay more" mentality. If that's not sticking it to the rich, what is??

Whereas the Republican plan is about "shared sacrifice" from everyone but the rich.

So, the rich do nothing for the country? Who do you think hires the workers?? Provides the jobs?? Run the companies that make all the things that Americans want and need??

I'll give you a hint. It's not the middle class or the poor...

The Obama Administration is simply fanning the "US vs THEM" flames for political gain. Obama is trying to demonize the rich to foster a "common enemy" approach so Americans will forget the fact that his policies made things 20 times worse...

What makes it so pathetic is that A} the Left actually buys into it and 2} Obama will turn right around and hit those "demons" up for campaign contributions...

Do you HONESTLY think that Obama and the Democrats will put forth tax legislation that the "rich" can't evade??

They **ARE** the rich, fer chreest's sake!!

If they had the integrity to write legislation that would actually FORCE them to pay more, then they would have they integrity to actually pay more WITHOUT being forced to do it.

They don't, so they don't...

Michale.....

I never said he was. This isn't about "sticking it to the rich". Its about shared sacrifice and a balanced approach.

Whereas the Republican plan is about "shared sacrifice" from everyone but the rich.

New government fees pepper Obama deficit plan

Airline passengers, for instance, would see their federal security fees double from $5 to $10 for a nonstop round-trip and triple to $15 by 2017, raising $25 billion over the coming decade. Federal employees would contribute $21 billion more to their pensions over the same period. Military retirees would pay a $200 fee upon turning 65 to have the government pay their out-of-pocket Medicare expenses. They'd also pay more for non-generic prescription drugs.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/New-government-fees-pepper-apf-4120540659.html?x=0&.v=2

But that's just collateral damage, right??

No need to be concerned about retirees or seniors or anyone like that, eh?? :^/

Michale......

The only people talking about that are conservatives like Dick Cheney. And Bill Clinton himself had the best line over the weekend:

“I’m always gratified whenever anyone says anything nice about her. And I very much agree that she’s done a good job, but I also have a high regard for Vice President Cheney’s political skills. And I think one of those great skills is sowing discord among the opposition.”

If Obama wants to foist a trillion and a half of new taxes on the American people in the middle of a recession

From what I can tell, the tax increases are all through closing corporate loopholes and doing things like ending the Bush tax cuts on the wealthiest (not everyone).

It would be nice to see those who have benefited most from our economy pay their fair share of taxes for a change.

They certainly don't need to be coddled with corporate welfare anymore.

-David

Once again, President Obama's pre-Presidential words come back to bite him on the arse....

I'm just sayin'....

Michale......

Well, I am happy you are happy. :D

But, at the risk of peein' on yer parade...

Obama isn't fighting with the GOP over this boondoggle of a Jobs bill..

He is fighting with his own Democrats... Hell, there is now some real talk about Obama being primaried...

But hay.... If Obama wants to foist a trillion and a half of new taxes on the American people in the middle of a recession, more power too 'im..

Let's have the CBO score how many jobs THAT will cost, eh?? :D

Michale.....

His use of balance to frame the debate is fantastic: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/20/us/politics/obama-vows-veto-if-deficit-plan-has-no-tax-increases.html?hp

This is a fight he can win and one I think the GOP may regret picking as the last thing the GOP wants the national conversation to be about is the class warfare which they've been waging since Reagan.

CW- I went back and re-read your article on "class warfare" as, of course, this will be one of the GOP's claims. I wish Obama would say what you wrote.

But he still did a pretty good job setting the stage by saying: "This is not class warfare. It’s math."

Great line.

Anyways, I'm tremendously encouraged by recent events!
-David

GOP machinations??

Nope..

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2011/09/obama-jobs-speech-right-now-dick-durbin.html

Michale.....

Can I assume I won't be recieving a response?

To which??

[2]?

Michale.....

Can I assume I won't be recieving a response?

As time permits
tm

The particular tactics in question are pretty much neutral, but in general, no. The mere fact that something is being done as a small part of a larger purpose does not protect it from moral scrutiny. The larger purpose is typically the greater source of moral significance. But if the tactic itself has morally significant characteristics, the mere fact of being a tactic does not eliminate that significance.

Discrete Indiscretions?

No matter how it's spun, this is a HUGE loss for the Democrats in general and Obama specifically.

Because, no matter how you slice it, this election was first and foremost about Obama and his policies.

Make no mistake about it. Obama was representing Democrats in this election and that is why the GOP won it.

Since the president is not facing a primary challenger,

... YET... :D

Hillary has been getting a lot of good press lately.. :D

As far as the Jobs package??

Obama is having more trouble convincing his fellow Democrats rather than the GOP...

"PASS THIS BILL!!!"
-Barack Obama

"Maybe later..."
-Harry Reid

By the bi, do you have a Most Creepiest Democrat Of The Week Award??

Because having a President say, "If you love me, help me pass this bill" is about the creepiest quote of all time by a sitting President.

I don't think even Clinton ever got that creepy and Clinton was pretty creepy himself..

Just sayin'....

Michale.....