I don't even see the stuff on this page that I thought I was replying to. Weird.

This subject has spanned over a couple commentaries. It's likely what you thought you were replying to here was in another commentary..

Michale.....

to yield or concede to the belligerent demands of (a nation, group, person, etc.) in a conciliatory effort, sometimes at the expense of justice or other principles.

How can you look at what's being done with regards to PMFs as anything BUT appeasement???

Michale.....

Not at all. The things you compare are different. One, is inflammatory. The other is not.

No, they BOTH are inflammatory..

But the difference is, one is inflammatory to your fellow Americans and, apparently, doesn't matter..

The other is inflammatory to the enemies of your fellow Americans and those people must be appeased.....

dsws,

Oh, oh, oh! Now I see the light. They're evil, so we must be evil too. In fact, we must be just as evil as they are. Let's go hijack some planes and fly them into Petronas Towers.

What's being "evil" about showing a photograph??

As I have stated and, as been aptly proven by subsequent commentaries, Americans love to gloat..

Why not allow us to gloat, complete with visuals, about the biggest event of the decade..

Oh yea, that's right. We mustn't anger or upset the Muslims..

(/sarcasm)

Michale.....

Oops, I thought the statement I replied to was about having a minimally-proper "burial at sea" instead of whatever various people think should have been done with the corpse.

Did terrorists respect Daniel Pearl??

Oh, oh, oh! Now I see the light. They're evil, so we must be evil too. In fact, we must be just as evil as they are. Let's go hijack some planes and fly them into Petronas Towers.

(/sarcasm)

Not at all. The things you compare are different. One, is inflammatory. The other is not.

And the ability to recognize these distinctions is one of the reasons Obama was the right man for the job.

As much as I know this drives you nuts :)

-David

I believe that the needs of the country come first. And sometimes that requires diplomacy, tact and selflessness.

You seem to miss my point.

Obama *IS* "making a birthday cake" out of it. Going all over the country, reaping all the accolades etc etc IS "spiking the football"....

And that is just as inflammatory as releasing the photo would be...

I believe President Obama has the skills to handle the situation with appropriate respect.

Of course you do.. That's kinda my whole point... :D

Michale....

I guess it's just a difference of opinion on terrorists in general..

Ya'all seem to think they are human beings who deserve to have their dead bodies respected...

I don't respect terrorists as human beings even when they are alive... I am certainly not going to respect their rotting carcasses...

One has to ask themselves..

Did terrorists respect Daniel Pearl??

Nicholas Berg??

Wanting visual confirmation of the death of someone as infamous and vile as Osama Bin Laden is simply human nature.

By not giving Americans visual evidence of his demise, the Obama Administration is guaranteeing more Truthers....

Why would they do that??

Michale.....

Where it's right to do so.

Let's take the "appeasement" trope by the horns. It's an implicit identification of potential terrorist recruits with Hitler. That's unwarranted, but let's stipulate it anyway, all the way.

I mean all the way: it's 1938, and we're the free world. We give exactly as much as we deem to be right. We can even suppose that Hitler gets to have the Anschluss and annex the Sudetenland -- but as the result of a deliberation that affirms the right of national self-determination of peoples, followed by plebiscites where the Sudeten Germans outvote the Czechs and the Austrians vote for unification.

That would not have been taken as a sign of weakness or as a green light to invade Poland and the rest of Czechoslovakia.

It's not about whether the bad guys get something. It's about whether it's done out of cowardice.

The failure to desecrate bin Laden's corpse was done out of decency, or at least an aspiration to decency. No matter how vile the deceased was, no matter how evil the people who would be most offended by it if we did, desecrating corpses isn't "who we are".

I believe that the needs of the country come first. And sometimes that requires diplomacy, tact and selflessness.

Each one of those actions could have the same effect that releasing the photo would have.

I believe President Obama has the skills to handle the situation with appropriate respect.

I guess we'll have to disagree on this, Michale. I wish you luck in pursuing your cake. Its nice out today - maybe a grill out party is in order!

-David

This would only incite more terrorist attacks.

Seems to me that taking a victory lap around the country and basking in the glow could also incite more terrorist attacks...

Don't get me wrong. President Obama (and President Bush) deserve the credit.. They deserve the glory..

But it seems to me that, if we are going to let Muslim fanatics control our lives, President Obama should not be going to Ground Zero or to military bases and things like that...

Each one of those actions could have the same effect that releasing the photo would have...

Further, since Muslim fanatics are already up in arms, it's probably a better idea to release the photo now.. Now, it will be just one more thing for them to get riled up about...

If the photos are released in 6 months, a year (as they will HAVE to be, per FOI requests) then it will bring it all up all over again..

Surely you can see the logic of getting it all out of the way now rather than dragging it out...

Michale......

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/06/us-binladen-obama-idUSTRE7455FG20110506

Michale.....

I meant it more euphemistically then factually... :D

Michale.....

just as a point of fact, that happens not to be entirely true. just as the sport of american football evolved from rugby, homer jones' 1965 invention of the post-touchdown spike was far from original even then. a try (like a touchdown) in rugby requires the ball to be grounded by the scoring player, which has often taken the form of a spike, just by the nature of the motion. further, most games of aussie rules football (circa 1880) begin with the umpire spiking the ball into the air.

so, the football spike is borrowed from the brits and the aussies. we just do it with more style :)

No pun intended... :D

http://ih0.redbubble.net/work.7118167.4.fig,asphalt,mens,fbfbfb.pwnd-osama-bin-laden-v3.jpg

Michale.....

I guess that's just our different backgrounds...

But you must allow that some people might want to "make a birthday cake" out of it..

And they should be allowed to...

Let's take a look for a second at what conservatives would be saying if we had released pictures.

They'd be saying: "He's risking terrorist attacks on innocent Americans by taunting Muslims."

So what??

Taking action or NOT taking action to appease conservatives is ALMOST as bad as appeasing fanatical Muslims...

Michale.....

Well, yes. It kinda sounds a little messed up to me. I'm happy knowing it. I don't need to make a birthday cake out of it.

And ...

Let's take a look for a second at what conservatives would be saying if we had released pictures.

They'd be saying: "He's risking terrorist attacks on innocent Americans by taunting Muslims."

C'mon. Admit it. You know its the truth. LOL

-David

Now, who's Freudian slip is showing?

:)

Sorry, lost track of all my negatives.. :D

That should read...

I doubt one more photo would do much to inflame anyone who already ain't...

Michale.....

Are you sure you're not projecting again? :)

Wanna take a trip down memory lane and recall all the times that ya'all wished that Obama would get "in your face" with the GOP?? :D

Who's appeasing?

Uh.... the Obama Administration.

By citing "inflaming Muslims" as a reason not to release the photo...

That's appeasing...

Further, considering how many photos have already been released (this one's my fav :D http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-DAQYIIKDr2U/Tb_PhgwMNQI/AAAAAAAACys/Wj9UmcAux7M/s1600/osama_liberty.jpg ) I doubt one more photo won't do much to inflame anyone who already ain't...

We were successful. Bin Laden is dead. It's when you get too big a head about it that you lose.

How is releasing the photo "getting a big head"?? The asshole killed over 3000 innocent men women and children...

Is it so wrong to want to see the dog frak'ed up??

I don't think so...

Michale.....

Are you sure you're not projecting again? :)

If we go down the road of appeasing and bowing to Islamic Terrorist sympathies, where do we draw the line?

Who's appeasing? We were successful. Bin Laden is dead. It's when you get too big a head about it that you lose.

-David

"Who we are" language normally expresses aspiration rather than fact.

"...and THEN some."
-Bruce Willis, THE LAST BOY SCOUT

:D

Michale.....

This would only incite more terrorist attacks.

Anyone who is predisposed to this sort of behavior will not but pushed into the action by the mere publication of a photograph..

If it's not the photograph, it's Abu Ghraib.. If it's not Abu Ghraib, it's Afghanistan Kill Teams... If it's not Afghanistan Kill Teams, it's something else. If it's nothing else then the terrorist will just make something up...

If we go down the road of appeasing and bowing to Islamic Terrorist sympathies, where do we draw the line???

"If we are to be damned, let us be damned for who we truly are..."
-Captain Jean Luc Picard, STAR TREK:THE NEXT GENERATION, Encounter At Farpoint

I liked Obama's phrase "not who we are".

But the fact is, that IS "who we are".. Americans are, by and large, an arrogant and braggart lot... The "in your face" sentiment permeates all of American culture...

Michale.....

I feel the same way, CW. And if you look at the 2 decisions and the specified reasons, I believe the administration made the right call:

1. Show the photos to quell any doubts by conspiracy theorists - When has evidence ever done anything to settle the doubts of conspiracy theorists?
2. Don't show the photos because rubbing it in someone's face is "not who we are". This would only incite more terrorist attacks.

I liked Obama's phrase "not who we are". This is a strong clear statement of belief. Wish he'd do this more often.

As for the Geronimo issue, big fail. I think they'd do right to apologize.

-David

p.s. Another interesting point to this story is the fact that this is a "safe" story that mainstream outlets can air. Stories about the influence of the US Chamber of Commerce on government will not appear in the MSM, but you CAN air a story about an American Indian grievance. An interesting sidenote.

Some of how white Americans talk about Native Americans has to do with bits of Native American culture that we've absorbed. If you look at how Americans like to think we're superior to Europeans, and how we act when we pretend to be Indians at a kids' summer camp, there are some connections there.

Awwww pshaw...

"Oh, Jafar, you're too kind. I'm embarrassed. I'm blushing.
-Yago, ALADDIN

:D

I completely agree with ya on this, CW.. The Monday Morning QB'ing is most annoying... It's Jessica Lynch all over again...

But the Native Americans do have a legitimate complaint and an official and very public apology is definitely in order..

However, I disagree with you on the Bin Laden death photo. Like you, I don't NEED to see it. I believe that Bin Laden is dead...

But I WANT to see it. Obama says that we don't need to spike the football.. That's bull carp. Americans INVENTED spiking the football...

You can bet that Obama will make spiking the football the centerpiece of his re-election campaign...

I am just getting sick and tired of worrying about Muslim sympathies..

If Muslims want our sympathy, they need to EARN it...

Muslims are a bigger victim of Bin Laden then all of the West...

The problem is, they don't see it...

Michale.....

-CW