i happen to agree with you that practicality ought to trump high-minded values, especially when it comes to saving lives and protecting our country. however, just to play devil's advocate, your statement is not entirely true, because your assertion depends entirely on what you mean by "valid." torture is not "unpleasant." it's cruel, against the core values of our nation, and against the dictates of the US Constitution. i don't give a rat's backside what torture does to some terrorist, but i do care what it does to people who were captured due to mistaken identity - as well as what it does to our government's credibility with our own citizenry and our allies. "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted," is not written with any exceptions for really bad people from other countries. you may not find that argument valid, but i sort-of do. as to torture's effectiveness, there is a lot more room for debate than you're acknowledging.

Torture can work...

i'm not disputing that it can work, i'm disputing whether methods that include torture work better than methods that do not involve torture. of that, the evidence is not so clear. much like corporal punishment of children who regularly misbehave, there is a lot of credible evidence that runs contrary to our "gut feeling" about what is and is not effective.

And yet, we found Bin Laden....

Can we come up with scenarios in which torture would work, and enable the perpetrator to avert an even greater evil?

Not only can we come up with scenarios, we can come up with real life examples..

Torture can work..

That is a fact that no amount of Left Wing koom bye ya mumbo jumbo will change...

Michale.....

Can we come up with scenarios in which torture would work, and enable the perpetrator to avert an even greater evil? Of course: Bob the necromancer has two spells, one which locates the traditional hidden nuclear bomb that's always used in these scenarios (but costs more mana points than he has available), and another which gives him the necessary mana points (but requires him to deep-fry a kitten). Obviously, Bob should go ahead and dunk Fluffy in the oil.

If one encounters such a situation, however, the correct response is never to commit torture. It's always to seek psychiatric treatment. Even if the scenario doesn't include any handy rhetorical flourishes like spells and mana points.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/05/05/bin-laden-dead-lets-collective-time-feel-proud-obama-seals-country/

Michale.....

The only VALID argument against torture is that it is unpleasant..

When you weigh that against the potential benefits.... well, it's a no-brainer..

Michale.....

Abso-fracking-loutly...

But, as you say, we cannot know either way. We have to rely on the experts on the ground at the moment to make the call..

But, since torture DOES have a proven track record and if all other options have failed, I have no problem with stringin' the frak'er up...

As I said, we're not talking about Mother Theresa here...

Michale.....

That depends on if, in this hypothetical scenario, i knew that torture was going to work. at the time the decision was made, nobody did. to some extent, we still don't. would you agree to completely forgo torture if it were conclusively proven that bin laden would have been killed at the same time or earlier?

My entire point in this thread is to show that those that claim that torture "NEVER" works or that torture "NEVER" produces actionable intel are talking out their asses...

Torture CAN work...

Torture HAS worked...

Torture CAN produce actionable intel...

Torture HAS produced actionable intel...

That has been my entire point...

And, I'll reiterate.. It's not as if we're torturing Aunt Matilda to get her to confess she jay-walked back in 1933.... We're not torturing Little Jack Horner to get him to confess that he did, in fact, stick his thumb in a Christmas pie...

We're torturing scumbag killers who are responsible for the deaths of innocent people...

I really don't have a problem with that and I honestly believe that no one else should either..

could a better decision have been made, which would have been equally or more effective? we'll never know.

Would you have preferred to explore that option if it meant that Bin Laden would still be alive today??

Because it's those kinds of abstracts that the people in the CT field have to deal in...

It's all about saving lives...

Not about what's politically correct..

Michale....

We know that KSM (or KMS or KFed or KFC) was waterboarded and the initial intel trail started with him...

So it's a factual statement to say that torturing a terrorist did produce actionable intel.

Further, the next break in the trail came in 2007, still under the auspices of the Bush administration. So it's a logical assumption that this terrorist was also tortured to give up such vital intel...

But, I understand your perspective..

Michale.....

In other words, people will see what they WANT to see in the facts..

I can agree with that...

Michale....

"The government obviously has been talking about how best to do this, but I don't think there was any question that ultimately a photograph would be presented to the public."
-Leon Panetta on NBC Nightly News, Tuesday

President Barack Obama does not plan to release photos of Osama bin Laden to prove his death, CBS News said on Twitter on Wednesday..
-CNN, Wednesday

I'm just sayin' :D

As to the photo itself, I am conflicted..

I don't NEED to see the photo. I believe the Administration that Bin Laden is fish food...

On the other hand, I WANT to see it. As a military man, I WANT to see this miserable excuse for a human being reduced to a bloody and bloated corpse...

Further, I think this administration worries WAY too much about offending Muslims. Muslims who, it appears, don't give a rat's ass about offending Americans...

"Fuck 'em"
-Robin Williams, LIVE AT THE MET

Michale.....

I think the whole operation is likely to fuel the argument on both sides rather than decide it either way. The water boarding may have broken him so they were able to get the intel under normal interrogation later or it caused a year delay and they would have gotten it much earlier if he had not been water boarded.

To get bin Laden, Obama relied on policies he decried

http://washingtonexaminer.com/politics/2011/05/get-bin-laden-obama-relied-policies-he-decried

I know, I know.. I am harping on this point ad nasuem...

I guess, like Obama, I can't resist gloating.. :D

And I believe that, like Obama, I've earned it.. :D

Michale....

in the intelligence business you work from a lot of sources of information and that was true here… It's a little difficult to say it was due just to one source of information that we got… I think some of the detainees clearly were, you know, they used these enhanced interrogation techniques against some of these detainees. But I'm also saying that, you know, the debate about whether we would have gotten the same information through other approaches I think is always going to be an open question.
-Leon Panetta

Of course, Panetta does not want to come right out and say it, but it's clear that torture was used to produce the intelligence that ultimately led to Bin Laden's death.

Further, since the intelligence was developed in 2007, during the Bush administration, it can be deduced that torture was used. Because *everyone* knows that the Bush administration tortured EVERYONE they could get their hands on! :D

The question can be settled unequivocally..

Torture CAN produce actionable intel that can be used to save the lives of those who deserve to live and end the lives of those who do NOT deserve to live.

Michale.....

He had almost decided to just bomb the compound with dozens of 2K bombs dropped from B2s..

But he opted to go with Seal Team 6, so as to obtain proof positive that it was Bin Laden..

It also had the added bonus of allowing ST6 to obtain a treasure trove of intel...

The significance of this simply cannot be over-stated. This is HUGE...

Imagine the intelligence that can be gleaned from reading Bin Laden's hard drive??

While the war against Al Qaeda is far from over, this is a huge boost for it...

This is Al Qaeda's Gettysburg... The beginning of the end...

Again, props to President Obama.. He certainly deserves an atta-boy on this one...

Michale.....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1382860/Osama-Bin-Laden-dead-Abbottabad-raid-ended-10-years-defiance-Obama-watched.html

Michale.....

Good point... There are now reports that Bin Laden's skull was blown apart...

So hard to sift thru all the info and separate fact from fiction..

Nypoet,

Rumsfeld also said in the same article....

Asked if harsh interrogation techniques at Guantanamo Bay played a role in obtaining intelligence on bin Laden’s whereabouts, Rumsfeld declares: “First of all, no one was waterboarded at Guantanamo Bay. That’s a myth that’s been perpetrated around the country by critics.

We both know that this is not true, so I would take your posted statement with a huge grain of salt..

Sounds more like CYA than anything else...

We've known for a while that torturing terrorists for data mining has saved innocent lives. This comes from officials within the Obama administration..

It's also interesting to note that the intel from this started with revelations in 2007.

Under the Bush administration..

Not belittling Obama's role in this whatsoever. As Moderate said above (and I have said ad nasuem.. :D) Obama deserves the credit for continuing the Bush policies that lead to this momentous event... Obama did this despite huge and unfair pressure from his base...

It's a testament to Obama's integrity that he did what was right for America and not what was right for the Dem Party base...

But the facts are, it was the Bush Administration that set the standard...

Remember when I said that history will look favorably on the Bush Administration once things come to light??

This is exactly what I was talking about..

Michale.....

“It is true that some information that came from normal interrogation approaches at Guantanamo did lead to information that was beneficial in this instance. But it was not harsh treatment and it was not waterboarding.”

http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/DonaldRumsfeld-gitmo-waterboarding-osamabinladen/2011/05/02/id/394820

~D. Rumsfeld

Notice that the photo you posted has disappeared from the internet? Guess it was a fake. I was looking at a story about ABC's footage of the compound where it all went down to see if there was any similarities between that and the photo. Went to compare and it's gone as are other versions I found via Google images. The thumbnails are there but the linked to pages are gone.

This is the problem with photography right now. I've seen and worked with so many bad images that looked fake but I knew to be real I would not be surprised it going either way and of course reality has really bad, mixed lighting :-)

Unless it's blatant it has become really hard to tell with all the cell phones and other crappy image capture devices with tiny lenses that warp in unexpected ways especially in low light and close up. There really needs to be some corroborating evidence to make a determination. I read this weekend that even Nikon's digital signing technology has been cracked.

Though thinking on it later, the professionalism of the troops involved and where they were and went after the mission and the time line involved it would almost have to be fake or intentionally leaked...

And, apparently, it works quite well...

Michale.....

It seems to me that it would legitimize that Bin Laden was a true Muslim, when we all know that Bin Laden perverted the religion for his own psychotic ends..

I know, I know.. There are very logical and valid reasons for doing as the US did..

I just have to wonder if it may have sent the wrong message to those in the Muslim communities who already have a beef with the US...

Michale.....

That's pretty deep, Liz... :D

As Spock would say,

"A difference which makes no difference IS no difference."

Michale.....

There's more to justice than just vengeance.

And, sometimes, justice versus vengeance provides a difference without distinction.

Fascinating analysis.. And spot on as well.. :D

There are reports calling this photo fake.

But read of the After Action report does coincide with the wounds shown...

Time will tell... I am sure the Obama administration is going to have to release SOME evidence that it actually was Bin Laden...

Michale.....

The problem with calls of photoshopping is someone good at it, you would never know and many photos straight out of a camera will have glitches in them people will think are evidence of photoshopping.

http://goodlawd.com/

WARNING: Photo is gruesome.

It shows an execution-style head wound just above the left temple..

My guess is Bin Laden was on his knees facing his executioner....

Anyways, regarding WH deciding to release photos...

I think that ship has sailed..

Although the photo could be photo-shopped.

There is some incontinuity between the upper head and lower head..

Bashi, whatcha think???

But the wounds are consistent with what has been reported in the AA report...

Michale.....

Ahhh contraire.. I am always amiable to changing my opinions based on factual data...

Once again, I could show you, but your mind is made up so it would be to no avail... :D

Michale.....

Nice try, I read the top four, all matched my description EXACTLY. Looked at the urls of the rest on the page...

But if I have learned anything here, it's that once people's minds have been made up, no amount of facts changes them.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

TRANSLATION:
I didn't actually read the links, but seeing that they are words from the likes of Michelle Malkin et al, my assessment is as stated.

Somehow I expected nothing less from you... :D

You may have a high opinion of Panetta...

I simply don't share it.

If you have a problem with that, well... It's your problem... :D

"Oh yea, the cat. Well, there's a problem with the cat."
"What's that?"
"It's your problem"
-MEN IN BLACK

:D

Now, I could rebut your position with point by point factual data of why Panetta is a political hack..

But if I have learned anything here, it's that once people's minds have been made up, no amount of facts changes them.

So, we will simply have to agree to disagree and move on... :D

Michale.....

Hmm...a bunch of conservative blog opinion only hatchet jobs without anything in them to back it up. Seems his big crime is being a democrat and not career military, mainly being a democrat. Somehow I expected nothing less from you...

Troo dat.. :D

Like I said, I don't begrudge the man a bit of gloating. He has more than earned it...

But Obama did get some really good revenge... His "Bin Laden is dead" announcement pre-empted Trump's CELEBRITY APPRENTICE..

"Revenge is a dish best served cold"
-Old Klingon Proverb

:D

Michale.....

there is a lot that people thought about president obama which turned out not to be the case. both in good ways and bad, he has stuck with many of the policies from bush's second term. and (yes, you're right about this) he has mirrored some of bush's chippy attitude as well.

The celebrations outside the White House, on the other hand, I wonder if that'll engender any kind of blowback. Much like Americans decried celebrations of 9/11, celebrating death always seems to me to be somewhat offensive just on the face of it...

I don't think that's going to be a problem..

The 9/11 celebrations were celebrations of terrorist attacks that killed INNOCENT people...

Bin Laden's execution (and he WAS executed, have ya'all seen the pic of his body??) was a warranted act that deserved celebration..

Anyone who has an issue with the celebration of Bin Laden's death, well to me it shows where their sympathy lies...

Like Matt's quote of Mark Twain,

"I have never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure."

Bashi,

I'm looking forward to reading it. And seeing the motion picture version.

Hell with that! I wanna play the Game!!!

THE EXECUTION OF OSAMA BIN LADEN for PC, PS3 & XBOX 360

:D

Michale.....

Michale.......

It would have made more sense to capture Bin Laden, rather than kill him..

Imagine the treasure trove of intel that could be wringed from him at a nice custome "suite" at Camp Delta... :D

I wonder if anyone would have a problem with torturing Bin Laden..

:D

Michale.....

I go away for a weekend and ya'all have conversations without me! Harrruummphhh...

:D

I'll get to the frabjous news in a moment, but let me take things in order...

Bashi,

As I asked you in the other thread: got a link or just talking out your...er...bias showing again?

And I gave you a quote in the other thread.. Not my fault ya didn't read it. :D

While I always encourage people to do their own research, I'll be happy to point you in the right direction..

Google "Leon Panetta" and "Political hack". Bonus points if you actually READ the links instead of just pooh-pooing them away because of who says it..

CW,

All I know is, while Panetta was at the CIA, there was never any public squabbling or infighting.

Ahem...

Google "Leon Panetta" Squabble "Dennis Blair". There were some very public squabbles, in-fighting and out-fighting..

Oh, and DADT repeal over at the Pentagon seems to be in the process of a pretty smooth introduction, wouldn't you agree? Hmmm?

If, by going smoothly you mean that there hasn't been any negative publicity about it, then yea.. I would call that going smoothly...

"Lack of evidence is not the same thing as no information"
-Spock

I am withholding judgement until actual integration is complete and there is no degradation in our military's ability..

Keep in mind that I have never been against the repeal of DADT..

As for the Ryan budget, why are Senate GOPers so scared of the vote? Why don't they have the courage of their convictions, eh? Seems you've ripped into Dems on occasion for just such a lack of spine...

Agreed.. GOP seems to be as afraid to go on the record with the Ryan Budget as Democrats were with CrapCare...

The birthers are quieting down? Haven't heard that, but don't keep up with them much

Haven't read much in the MSM about the birthers beyond the initial reaction to the BC release..

So, whether or not this issue dies looks to be in the lap of Obama and the Democrats... To date, since the initial release of the BC, all I have heard is Obama talking about it...

NYPoet,

the press dinner was pretty damn funny, especially with donald trump standing there scowling the whole time.

As I mentioned to CW above, the only one who seems to be talking about the Birth Certificate now is Obama.. While I will not begrudge a man a certain amount of gloating (if anyone has earned it in this regard, it's Obama) I have always thought that Obama had fancied himself as above this sort of thing.

But I am sure his base is eating it up...

Matt,

Yeah, culture is a good thing; I say let there be more culture and fewer culture wars.

Then why is the Left always hellbent on destroying American Culture???

OK, now to current events..

Again.. WOW!!! I was pretty well ripped from my weekend, so I didn't even bother checking news sites until first thing this AM...

I was floored.. Bin Laden had obtained almost "boogey man" status...

And, I have to admit that when I read he was buried at sea, I wondered for a split second if there was something hinky.. But then it occurred to me that THAT choice was brilliant.. No grave marker for terrorists to rally around and become a holy pilgrimage site..

But that shouldn't stop terrorists... I encourage ALL Al Qaeda members to visit Bin Ladens grave site. Get right up close to the body....

What do you call 1,000 terrorists at the bottom of the ocean???
A GOOD START!!!

:D

Bashi,

Good speech. I thought it was also good that Obama gave George W Bush a courtesy call before the speech, though that would probably be standard for all modern presidents.

I have to give points to Obama for that move...

That was more than decent. That was classy and gentlemanly...

CW,

Um, you want to maybe change your assessment of Panetta's leadership at the CIA, considering current events? Hmmm?

I would wait to break out the Panetta Champagne until his role is fully explained.. From my brief readings, it seemed it was more of a MilOp than a CIA operation...

Regardless of that, I have served with commanders where our units had great and successful ops IN SPITE of the commander rather than BECAUSE OF the commander..

I have no doubt that this is another one of those instances...

Panetta is a politician.. And that is, by far, NOT a compliment...

*If* Panetta was involved, he obviously had the sense enough to know what he doesn't know, step aside and let the professionals do what they do best.

If this turns out to be the case, then he deserves a kudo, to be sure...

Liz,

Well said...

Moderate,

I honestly don't care that this almost certainly ensures re-election for Obama in 2012

I have to agree.. My first thought was, "Jeezus, you throw this guy in a pile of shit and he STILL comes up smelling like baby powder!!"

It's a credit to his decision to make some unpopular decisions to continue Bush policy in certain areas, which both his own base and opposition must credit him for.

This will definitely enhance Bush's legacy, as it was the Bush policies that made this even possible.

I am just very happy that Obama had the wisdom AND the testicular fortitude to ignore his base and do the right thing..

While this is definitely a win for Obama it's as big a win for Bush and his administration..

I hope that the Left will finally give Bush the credit that he is due...

Regardless, I say a very heartfelt and very sincere thank you to President Obama...

You have my respect, sir....

Michale.....

Today is a good day. It doesn't matter that it happened on Obama's watch. It's a credit to his decision to make some unpopular decisions to continue Bush policy in certain areas, which both his own base and opposition must credit him for.

If a momentous achievement like this cannot unite everyone, across political boundaries, in celebration, then nothing can. Justice has been done for 9/11.

To quote Mark Twain: I have never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure.
- comment on Osborne Ink story, Obama Offs Osama.

Indeed!

Well, I'm not sure if it's what you meant but the first comment is spot on:

To quote Mark Twain: I have never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure.
- comment on Osborne Ink story, Obama Offs Osama.

I feel like this.

The news of the killing of bin Laden during a successful US operation targeted on his compound in Pakistan is a very exciting moment in history ... justice has been delivered to a figure who was responsible for the deaths of so many people of all faiths and nationalities.

Hopefully, this will be an event that will ultimately unite all peace-loving people around the world in the ongoing struggle against terrorists and their dispicable acts and that we will see the day when al-Qaeda and its affiliates and like-minded groups are finally defeated and eliminated.

Heartfelt thanks and appreciation for the efforts of the US military and intelligence services and to President Obama and his national security team and, particularly, to all those courageous military and intelligence officials who were involved in the planning and successful execution of this critical mission.

Hah! OK, you asked nicely. But give me an hour, other things are happening fast, and I've got stuff to read...

:-)

-CW

Um, you want to maybe change your assessment of Panetta's leadership at the CIA, considering current events? Hmmm?

BashiBazouk -

The speech did its job. I'm not sure how good it was, because I was kind of in shock while watching it. I taped it, I'll review it to see what Obama actually said later...

I also thought it was very classy to give Dubya a courtesy call before the rest of the world knew about it. And, to be fair, I thought Bush's statement was pretty classy too. It wasn't the politicians, it wasn't even Panetta (although I agree with you about the whole blame/credit thing), it was the grunt-level spooks who put this one together. They'll remain forever nameless, likely. But the politicians, so far (Bush and Obama) have been doing a pretty good job of announcing the whole thing to the world.

The celebrations outside the White House, on the other hand, I wonder if that'll engender any kind of blowback. Much like Americans decried celebrations of 9/11, celebrating death always seems to me to be somewhat offensive just on the face of it...

Just a snap reaction, though...

-CW

Zing.

Also, please explain the Media Relations Building reference in the column before last. http://www.chrisweigant.com/2011/04/27/should-america-assassinate/#comment-14210

Good speech. I thought it was also good that Obama gave George W Bush a courtesy call before the speech, though that would probably be standard for all modern presidents.

Looks like Leon Panetta did well in directing it. Not so much a hack, eh? Ok I realize he probably had little to do with it beyond directing and funneling money but if the director takes blame for failure he should also get a little of the credit for success...

Culture wars CAN be won.

OTOH, we have Ben Cohen's experience. He accidentally watched the wedding live in an airport bar and found himself charmed -- I think it was because he had AVOIDED all the advance coverage, etc.

Which I did. I watched it on video. Yeah, culture is a good thing; I say let there be more culture and fewer culture wars.

All I know is, while Panetta was at the CIA, there was never any public squabbling or infighting. Not every CIA director can say that, wouldn't you agree? Got any evidence that the CIA declined while he was there? I haven't heard any such story, but I'm always open to new things.

Oh, and DADT repeal over at the Pentagon seems to be in the process of a pretty smooth introduction, wouldn't you agree? Hmmm?

As for Congressional vacations, as I said, I'm ready to get behind even the Tea Partiers if they take up this cause... grumble... grumble...

Have you ever read "Parliament of Whores" by P.J. O'Rourke? You would freakin' absolutely love it, I promise you that. I didn't agree with much of it, but I also loved other parts of it, as you will too.

As for the Ryan budget, why are Senate GOPers so scared of the vote? Why don't they have the courage of their convictions, eh? Seems you've ripped into Dems on occasion for just such a lack of spine...

The birthers are quieting down? Haven't heard that, but don't keep up with them much (beyond your comments here... heh... OK, that was a cheap shot... enjoy your long weekend, and hope you get back to see the penultimate shuttle launch!)

-CW

Matt made it into third place (and an automatic scholarship), but then fell back into fifth place. He is now in fourth, but only the top three are guaranteed.

So if you haven't already, GO VOTE FOR MATT!

Get family members and friends to vote, too. It only takes a second, and it's free.

Go Matt!

-CW

I actually thought that (and the cool convertible) were the best parts of the show.

The "fly past" (apparently the Brits don't call it a "fly by"... who knew?) was awesome, especially the Lancaster -- I had never seen one of them before in the air. They actually had a GREAT angle... from a chase plane, but they (once again) kept changing camera angles every 0.4 seconds, so you didn't get to see much of that shot. Sigh.

But it was indeed pretty cool, I have to admit!

-CW

Did you see the fly over? The first flight were Battle of Brittan planes, I believe a Lancaster, a Spitfire and a Typhoon. Beautiful planes.

Panetta is a political hack. He is the consummate Dem Party insider... He is a bean counter...

As I asked you in the other thread: got a link or just talking out your...er...bias showing again?

I will say you are right about him being a bean counter. A truly gifted bean counter as his record in the House as Chairman of the U.S. House Committee on the Budget and in the Clinton white House as Director of the United States Office of Management and Budget proves.

I would also recommend watching if you can find it: the Panetta institute lecture series. He has not chaired it since being at the CIA but he is one of those rare birds that can get a really rational, in depth and interesting conversation out of people with opposing view points.

Just to put it in perspective.... The 300+ people killed by tornadoes breaks the record that was set back in 1932...

All of which adds up to the first time in our history -- and, quite possibly, the last -- that we've awarded the MIDOTW to a sitting C.I.A. director. But Leon Panetta was, indeed, the Most Impressive Democrat Of The Week last week.

I saids it before and I'll says it again..

Panetta is a political hack. He is the consummate Dem Party insider... He is a bean counter...

You can bet that the quality of leadership at the Pentagon will go down past the basement..

The ONLY good thing about Panetta being at the Pentagon is that the quality of leadership at the CIA will definitely go up...

There's just no excuse, guys. Harry Reid, in particular, is in charge of setting the Senate's schedule. No excuse. This is pathetic, and it should end. For every member of Congress just getting back from their most recent two-week vacation, you guys and gals should hang your heads in shame, as you all are awarded a collective Most Disappointing Democrat Of The Week award.

Oooorraaaaaaa.... Can't argue with that one iota... Except to say that the GOP is just as guilty...

The Ryan budget

Polls are showing that the American people, especially seniors prefer the GOP budget to the Democrat's or Obama's budget...

I'm just sayin...

Seniors actually care about their progeny

That's why they don't want to hand them a broken country with a destroyed economy...

Don't take Unions for granted

Can you say, "Massussuchets"??? Well, I can SAY it.. I just can't SPELL it.. :D

Playing the Trump card

So, despite all the claims and prostrations, Obama doesn't mind continuing the silliness.. The very silliness he himself decried..

Hmmmmm I guess Obama lied... Again...

He really DOESN'T have anything better to do...

You will also note that the birther's have been quiet the last day or two...

Why stir them up again???

Long weekend coming. I'm out.. :D

Michale....