You can read, right?

Now here's how you do a citation:

The Truth About Health Insurance Premiums, Factcheck.org.

These are the facts...

No, that is called "an opinion," one that you have failed to support with any facts. It's also off-topic, argumentative against that which was stipulated, and merely a subset of your initial similarly unsupported post.

If you're going to haul out the old saw about knives and gunfights, you might also need to broaden it to include the spork.

Simply yelling "CrapCare" is not an argument.

I'll grant that the bill doesn't do enough to rein in costs. (Any proposal that actually did so would never reach the floor for a vote.)

It's not that the bill doesn't do ENOUGH to rein in costs.

It doesn't do ANYTHING to rein in costs.. Costs will continue to rise, even though we were promised by Obama et al that this wouldn't happen.

CrapCare is worthless.. It's WORSE than worthless as it is nothing more than a failed placebo..

Hell, it even failed at giving Democrats something to run their campaigns on...

No matter from which angle one looks at it, CrapCare is a complete and utter failure.

These are the facts...

Michale.....
177

Ducky.

Now kindly scroll back up and read what I wrote. (And yeah, I had to correct it. Senior moment. Sue me.)

I'll grant that the bill doesn't do enough to rein in costs. (Any proposal that actually did so would never reach the floor for a vote.)

Knives, gunfights, whales, torpedoes. Try to address the point. If you can.

I have long suspected that this is the sum and substance of conservative governance theory. Here we have it in writing.

Actually, when it comes to most things, I am more liberal than you are, I would wager. And, for the record, my political designation is "NPA", IE No Political Affiliation.

I am one of those Independent voters.. Ya know, the ones who actually DECIDE elections?? :D

But do you REALLY want to discuss "sum and substance" considering the abomination (from a leadership perspective) that we have put in office???

I mean, seriously...

1) You make an unfounded claim.

Dood...

How can you call 168,000 citations of the facts "unfounded"??

But, hay.. I'll be happy to spell it out for ya.. :D

WASHINGTON -- Health-care costs are forecast to rise after enactment of President Obama's new health law -- and the average American will have to shell out an additional $265 each year for care, a new government report concludes.

nypost.com/p/news/national/feverish_pike_in_care_QMdYsHo0Bz3IU1288B7hbM#ixzz18Mbcu0dd

President Obama and his supporters have said that one of the major benefits of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act would be a drop in health insurance premiums. But a new Hewitt Associates study shows that insurance costs will continue to rise for 2011.
blog.heritage.org/2010/10/04/side-effects-obamacare-fails-to-halt-rising-premiums/

WASHINGTON — AARP‘s endorsement helped pass President Barack Obama’s health care overhaul. Now the powerful seniors’ lobby is telling employees their costs will go up as a result.
theblaze.com/stories/citing-health-overhaul-aarp-hikes-employee-costs/

In the next several years, studies have confirmed that Americans will face far higher insurance premium costs. By the year 2019, it is estimated that U.S health spending will rise from about $2.5 trillion to $4.6 trillion. The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid services project that overall national health spending will increase by 6.3 percent each year over the next decade. In other words, health care costs will consume one out of every five dollars spent in the United States.
freedomworks.org/blog/jborowski/obamacare-predicted-to-increase-health-care-spendi

Aerospace giant Boeing is joining the list of companies that say the new health care law could have a potential downside for their workers.

Those changes will reduce the value of the Boeing plan, but it’s unclear whether that will allow the company to escape the tax looming in 2018.
news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101018/ap_on_bi_ge/us_health_costs_boeing

And that's just the first few of 168,000 citations that prove my position.

Now... Do you have any citations that refute my position??

Because, if all you have is "DEMOCRATS ARE GREAT!!! RAH RAH RAH!!!", I am going to be very disappointed..

"You guys aren't from the military, trying to train whales for retrieving torpedoes or some dipshit stuff like that, are you? Because if you are, I am going to be very disappointed."

"No Ma'am. No dipshit."
-STAR TREK IV, The Voyage Home

Something you will learn very quickly around here.. Never bring a knife to a gunfight. :D

The facts are these.

We were told that CrapCare would reduce HealthCare costs.

HealthCare costs are still rising, despite CrapCare being enacted.

HealthCare costs will continue to rise, even after the meat of CrapCare takes effect.

"These are the facts. And they are undisputed."
-Captain Jack Ross, A FEW GOOD MEN

CB,

Errrr... who elected the bullshooting fast-tracker with the nifty tag line, who'd never governed a day in his life? I wouldn't be looking down my nose at the Right if I were a liberal. You guys don't exactly have a prize on your hands.

Truer words were never spoken.

It's amazing how those on the Left will turn down their nose at Palin, yet it's an undisputed fact that she actually has executive leadership experience as the most popular governor in the nation. As opposed to Obama who, apparently, can't lead his way out of a paper sack with a map and a compass...

Michale.....
175

Errrr... who elected the bullshooting fast-tracker with the nifty tag line, who'd never governed a day in his life? I wouldn't be looking down my nose at the Right if I were a liberal. You guys don't exactly have a prize on your hands.

No, no. I don't play that way. Here's how it goes:

1) You make an unfounded claim.
2) I ask, "What are you talking about?"
3) You provide your cite or don't.

I do NOT go for the "You prove the opposite!" routine.

Yes and from that search are hundreds (168,000, to be exact) "citations" that show how CrapCare has raised costs and will raise costs..

Do you have any citation that indicates costs are lower due to CrapCare??

If so, I am sure that I (and the Democratic Party) would love to see them... :D

Michale.....
174

That alone would be worth the price of admission.. :D

I have long suspected that this is the sum and substance of conservative governance theory. Here we have it in writing.

Even Sarah Palin could beat Obama, at this point.

Can you imagine the combined apoplexy of the Left if we got President Palin??

That alone would be worth the price of admission.. :D

Michale.....
173

Costs have gone up? You're kidding! That never happened before the law passed!

The point is that we were assured that costs would go DOWN, not up..

But costs HAVE gone up, despite CrapCare being passed.

And, further non-partisan research shows that costs will rise even higher, after the majority of CrapCare provisions take effect...

So, why bother passing CrapCare??

Don't tell me about the sources you could cite. Cite 'em!

http://google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&source=hp&q=HealthCare+costs+rising+after+Obamacare&btnG=Google+Search

How much time ya got?? :D

Michale.....
172

Like I have said, Obama and the Democrats have maneuvered themselves into a perfect Lose-Lose situation...

Except that lefties have a well-established habit of reelecting pols no matter how many times they're kicked in the teeth by them. So Obama's best move is to play to the center and hope for the best. Not that I think it's the formula for his success. I went on record long ago predicting he's gonna be a one-termer. He's way too ideologically driven to pull off a move to the center, like Clinton did. Unless he takes dramatic steps to dispel that impression — like vetoing that hideously pork-laden budget proposal and repealing HCR himself — Indies have no reason to believe they'll get anything other than four more years of leftie leadership from him — if you can even call him a "leader" at all. He's such an inexperienced rookie that the Left would be really wise to find themselves somebody else to go up against the Republicans. Even Sarah Palin could beat Obama, at this point.

Costs have gone up? You're kidding! That never happened before the law passed!

Oh wait.

Don't tell me about the sources you could cite. Cite 'em!

Are we talking about some OTHER health care bill than the one recently signed into law?

Nope. We're talking about the one recently signed into law.

I can quote reliable source after reliable source that shows that HealthCare Costs have actually risen since CrapCare was passed and is likely to rise even further, once the real meat of CrapCare takes effect.

google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&source=hp&q=HealthCare+costs+rising+after+Obamacare&btnG=Google+Search

I can also quote reliable source after reliable source that shows there are still plenty of loopholes that allow insurance companies to deny coverage based on pre-existing conditions.

http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&source=hpq=HealthCare+costs+rising+after+Obamacare&btnG=Google+Search#sclient=psy&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&q=Loopholes+Obamacare+deny+%22pre+existing+conditions%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=87dedf703ab49d09

(You'll have to cut and paste the links)

The simple fact is that CrapCare was nothing but an attempt by Democrats to show the American people that they CAN do something with the power they were given...

Unfortunately, the Democrats misread the American people. The American people didn't just want Dems to do something.. The American people wanted Democrats to do something GOOD...

CrapCare ain't it...

CB,

Welcome back!! Missed ya!! :D

Yer right, though..

Obama repealing CrapCare on his own would do a lot to endear himself to the Independents and NPA'ers that totally decimated the Democratic Party..

But he would also lose his base in droves if he did that...

Like I have said, Obama and the Democrats have maneuvered themselves into a perfect Lose-Lose situation...

Michale.....
167

Precisely what Howard Dean said in this PBS documentary clip, which also reminds us how the infamous "mandate" came to be in the first place: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PwqSCJmbxk ...

The Dems might as well have sent out engraved invitations to voters, asking them to hand the House over to the Republicans. It would've saved them a lot of time and money on the campaign trail.

FYI, when you take the mandate away, the entire law falls about.

Frankly, if Obama were smart, he'd repeal CrapCare himself before the Supremes or a Republican president gets hold of it. It'll look a whole lot better on his legacy if he and congress start from scratch. And he won't have to worry about defending it on the 2012 campaign trail. Rather, he can turn the tables and become the good-guy Mr. Fixit champion, with real reform at the end of the day. If he goes into the election still trying to defend that pig, he's gone. Sixty percent of likely voters want it killed. The majority had said "no" to enacting it all along.

I'm not saying the individual mandate is the only way, but there has to be something in the law that addresses the free-rider issue.

I was discussing the issue elsewhere today. Young man, in his 30s, no health issues. Doesn't see why he should be required to carry health insurance.

Of course, if this same fellow is diagnosed with some awful disease tomorrow, he's going to want health insurance very much. If you rule out exclusions based on pre-existing conditions, young healthy people simply refuse to participate--until they need insurance.

And that, of course, is not how insurance works.

I don't know that I have an overall answer to the problem. I thought including at least a public option was a smart thing to do, and was pretty unhappy with Joe Lieberman about exactly a year ago for killing it off in the bill. Single-payer ("Medicare for all" perhaps) would be nice, but I'm not holding my breath as it seems the least likely to actually be enacted any time soon.

Quaker in a Basement -

Can I just call you Quaker? I mean, that's a lot to type every time I use your name.

:-)

Ahem. Seriously, though, I think the pre-existing conditions ban should stay. Although with the ban, but without the mandate, prices might be hiked. The most interesting thing in the whole debate currently that I find is the rumors that some of the fiercest deficit-hawks in the Republicans are now taking a look at the public option, because it really is the only thing (the only thing they'll consider, I should say) that seems to actually drive the prices down over the long haul. Maybe it's just rumor, though, I dunno. But it'll certainly be interesting to see which way Republicans go on the whole healthcare issue next year, that's for sure.

-CW

Correction:

But noth...err, NOTHING to help people get coverage and NOTHING to prevent denial on pre-existing conditions?

if the mandate is dropped, there has to be a provision making it illegal to abuse the pre-existing condition ban by not carrying insurance and then applying for extensive insurance right after the condition becomes serious (i.e. expensive).

since i'm on the left side of this debate, i'm obviously of the opinion that adding an inexpensive public option would be a better way to go, but that also has to be managed to keep the market for high-end care intact. in other words, we need to build a floor without caving in the ceiling.

in its current form the law is doing neither, which is essentially driving down the middle of a one-lane road. and if you do this, we all know what mr. mayagi says:

"squish, just like grape"

I'll grant that the bill doesn't do enough to rein in costs. (Any proposal that actually did so would never reach the floor for a vote.)

I'll even set aside the fact that this post and my response are about individual mandates and not any of the things you mention.

But noth...err, NOTHING to rein in costs and NOTHING to prevent denial on pre-existing conditions?

Are we talking about some OTHER health care bill than the one recently signed into law?

THAT is why CrapCare is... well... Crap...

It does absolutely NOTHING to reign in costs, NOTHING to help people get coverage and NOTHING to prevent companies from denying pre-existing conditions.

The ONLY thing that CrapCare did was allow Democrats to point to it and say, "See!! We DID accomplish something"....

The irony of it is that the vast majority of Democrats were so ashamed of CrapCare, they didn't want to mention that they had a hand in it..

Oh... and...

"Welcome to the party, pal!!!"
-John McClane, DIE HARD

:D

Michale.....
163

Welcome to the site!

Just a quick technical note (I will answer your points in a bit, just wanted to post this right away) -- your first comments were automatically held for approval (we have to do this to cut down on comment spam), but from now on your comments should post immediately and automatically. If you post two or more links in a single comment, it will be held for moderation, but other than that you should not experience any wait time from now on. Just to let you know...

-CW

Michale I have to agree in entirety with your position on Crap Care;the whole thing was ill advised from the start.Until we take insurance companies out of the health care business there can be no true Health Care Reform;until that happens it is moose poop.

Democrats truly pushed thru an "Edsel" (to borrow the word from Americulchie) and it was likely a direct contribution to the "Shellacking" (to borrow the word from President Obama) that the American people handed the Democrats..

Michale
162