In a not good way, CW. Ok, ok. Kidding. I still have a soft spot in my heart for Rush. But I think it's more nostalgic than anything else.

Every now and then you just need a 3-minute drum solo ... heheh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-BRee2bAho

(Hopefully, no one is reading these comments at this point.)

Everyone knows "Tom Sawyer" is a song by the Canadian rock band Rush, right?

Whoops, I think I just dated myself in a different way...

Heh.

-CW

Don't listen to what the others say.. I am actually a nice guy!!! :D No really... :D

I am glad you did not ask what the middling refuge of the scoundrel is.I'll give you a cryptic clue that it can be found somewhere in the book Tom Sawyer. :)

I think you just outed your age there.. :D

I doubt anyone under 30 even KNOWS who Tom Sawyer is... :D

Michale......

In this election, more money from anonymous donors has been spent on campaign ads than ever before. Do you think groups that engage in political activity, such as television ads, should or should not be required to disclose their donors, or does it not matter much to you?

In an ordinary poll, that first sentence wouldn't be there. Neither would the word "much," at the end. But it wasn't a serious subject, anyway. It looked like they were just pushing for some spin fodder, for that campaign against Rove and the Chamber of Commerce.

But this particular result is accurate, I know, because Rasmussen had it at 52% in his November 3-4 poll: 54% Cut taxes for all, including those with the highest incomes

But THIS one???
I have a few short questions about how things have changed lately—I’m just looking for your perception. If you do not happen to know, just say so. Do you think federal income taxes have gone up or down for the middle class in the past two years?
52 Up
19 Down
29 Not sure

I'm not sure what to make of that at all. It's not the best worded question I've ever seen in my life; that's for sure. First, it references something that HAS happened, but "lately" [read: recently], but then the time span given goes back two years, which doesn't represent "lately" in the average consumers' mind. And then it asks for their PERCEPTION, which is an odd choice of words, followed by "do you THINK federal taxes have gone up or down..." instead of "do you KNOW IF" or "whether..." followed by "happen to KNOW..." And with a built in assumption that everyone's definition of "middle class" is the same, on top of it all. And there's also so much room for confusion since some tax credits has expired. Oy.

Bottom line, that question is just too poorly crafted to get a clean, clear response. I sure wouldn't be relying on it, if I were the White House Communications or 2012 Campaign Director. (Nor would I be relying on this polling firm. LOL)

I can, however, tell you that THIS one goes directly to (if you'll pardon the expression) change they can believe in:

President Obama says the economy was near collapse when he took office two years ago and is improving though his policies still need time to take full effect. Republicans say President Obama’s policies have failed and that a complete change of course is needed for the economy to get better. What do you think—do you think the economy will get better with more time for current policies to work or do you think a complete change of course is needed for the economy to get better?
46 Will get better with time for current policies to work
48 A complete change of course is needed
6 Not sure

46% is consistent with Obama's job approval. So those who believe in him plan on continuing to do so, at least for now. THAT'S good news for the White House.

Sounds like you and I will get along just fine as I believe EXACTLY the same thing.. :D

Michale.....

Now if only I could close a tag properly ... *sigh*

It happens.. :D Don't let it get ya down..

Michale.....

Since you appear to be an Alan Grayson fan, you might appreciate this interview..

http://susiemadrak.com/?p=9534

Granted, it's from another "head-stomping" blog :D but it's a good interview..

Interesting though.. Grayson seems to think that Democrats lost because they didn't listen to their base...

In other words, screw the rest of the country, just do what's right for your Party and you will keep your job...

Nice attitude... Unfortunately, it's the attitude of many ideologues.. People who are Democrats/Republicans first and Americans second..

People like that are to be pitied..

Michale.....

Of course my comments are anti-Obama.. Because I believe that he has really screwed things up..

Just like all the comments around here during the Bush years were anti-Bush.. Because ya'all believed (rightly or wrongly) that Bush was really screwing things up...

Such is the nature of the beast...

I think you're right. I think it's called lots of money :). But also, I think they've had a long term strategy that they've been working on for over 30 years and have been quite successful with.

As far as making "liberal" a bad word, I think it has more to do with all the terrorism and death and destruction that was done in the name of Liberals and the Left wing agenda in the past...

It's easy to vilify something when you see the result of it is blowing up buildings and killing innocent people...

And yes, there has been a few incidents like that from the Right, but much fewer and with much less frequency than from the Left..

Which is why the Right has had an easier time of vilifying the Left than the Left has had vilifying the Right...

One only has to look at the Left's recent attempts to vilify the Tea Party to see that they (the Left) aren't very good at it...

p.s. I finally setup a spot where we can take the "Unthinkable" conversation offline. Sorry, been super busy at work or would have posted this earlier. Your comments may go to moderation the first time.

I am still holding out hope that I can cajole CW into watching the movie and doing a commentary on it.. :D But I tried to slide over there to your link and take a look, but didn't see a comment per se... Did you just introduce the subject??

Michale.....

I love that movie, Michale!

"I'm gonna stay in prison tonight. Maybe I'll finally get some sleep. I'm doing good, huh?" - Vinny Gambini

Not quite sure where to start on the rest of your comments, Michale but I will say that most are anti-Obama. That's what I think won Republicans this election, but if they're going to win me over I need more than that. And I actually would like more than trickle down theory and deregulation too.

Maybe there is a reason that conservatives have been so successful at it?

I think you're right. I think it's called lots of money :). But also, I think they've had a long term strategy that they've been working on for over 30 years and have been quite successful with.

Cheers
David

p.s. I finally setup a spot where we can take the "Unthinkable" conversation offline. Sorry, been super busy at work or would have posted this earlier. Your comments may go to moderation the first time.

http://thereckoner.com/?p=158

That's bullshit!

Gee whiz, Liz... Could you be more specific??? :D

"Everything that guy there just said is bullshit. Thank you."
-Joe Pesci, MY COUSIN VINNIE

Michale......

Fine ... appreciate the nonsense all you want. As long as you also appreciate that, sometimes, I will not be able to resist the urge to call it out for what it is, from time to time. :)

That's bullshit!

But, that's OK ... all manner of BS is appreciated around here, too. :)

Hey, it keeps me off the streets, too... probably a benefit to society in both our cases.

Most likely.. :D

- if you had heard about all the stuff mentioned in the Bloomberg piece when it happened, would your impressions of Obama and the Dems be even slightly higher now as a result? I'm interested in your self-reflection, personally.

That's actually a tough question..

Since you make the same point down in your final comment, let me address it there...

Americulchie,

He was steadfast in support of Mr.Obama's agenda and more importantly was concerned for his constituents.

Considering the circumstances of late, it seems like those are two diametrically opposed beliefs..

In other words, you can't support Obama's agenda AND be concerned about the welfare of your constituents..

Apparently, that's how the voters saw it..

Liz,

What makes you think this kind of nonsense resonates within the confines of the two corners of the blogosphere where common-sense and reality-based political commentary reside?

Why, exactly is CB's comment "nonsense"??

What part is not factual??

The US *is* a center-right country.

Conservatives *do* out-number liberals two to one.

It was clear that the mid-term election *was* a referendum and a repudiation of Obama's policies.

"None of these facts are in dispute, Mr President!"
-Klingon Ambassador, STAR TREK IV, The Voyage Home

Given these facts, I am at a loss to understand how ANY of CB's comment can be construed as "nonsense"..

It's nonsense to label it nonsense.. :D

CW,

To quote the learnéd philosopher, Benny Hill (cough, cough) -- "When you 'assume,' you make an 'ass' out of 'u' and 'me.'"

A corollary of this is, "When you make an assumption, you make an 'ass' out of YOU and UMPTION" :D

But I have to say, the "Hindenberg crashing on your front lawn" was excellent metaphor-construction.

As a fan of analogies, I have to agree. David's was first rate...

You keep repeating the canard that America is a "center-right" country, based on self-identified "liberals" versus self-identified "conservatives," but that all that really proves these days is how much conservatives have successfully demonized the word "liberal," really.

Maybe there is a reason that conservatives have been so successful at it??

When liberal policies are stacked up against conservative policies, Americans are actually mostly in favor of liberal policies, for the most part.

For example......??????? :D

The Tea Partiers are about to learn this lesson, to their dismay.

Perhaps, perhaps not...

When it comes to the Tea Party, the only thing that ANYONE can be sure about is that they are unsure...

Look at how all the pundits predicted that the Tea Party would die a spectacular death under the weight of all the racist accusations and the blatant subterfuge from the Left, Hysterical and otherwise..

Even here on CW, there were a few who stated that the Tea Party would roast the GOP and let the majority of Democrats sail to election/re-election...

Neither of these came to pass...

One can go broke betting on what will or will not happen with the Tea Party and it's effect on the country as a whole...

As for the Constitution, remember that it fully supported slavery. Times change. So does the Constitution, and the judicial interpretation of it. That is also part of the American culture.

Agreed... But most on the Left (*present company excepted, of course*) only argue the Constitution when it suits them.

They scream bloody murder and "WHAT ABOUT THE CONSTITUTION!!!???" when their Aunt Matilda's cookie recipe is at risk but then yell, "WHAT CONSTITUTION???" when it's a Democratic Party government trying to force Americans to buy Acme Cola or Acme Car or Acme Health Insurance...

"The stimulus lowered the American taxpayer's burden to the lowest point it has been in 60 years. The stimulus cut everyone's taxes more than any Republican has managed to since Eisenhower, in other words. The rest of the stimulus put construction workers back to work, rebuilding the greatness of American infrastructure, because with all the Republican 'small-government' thinking, our roads were falling apart, our bridges were literally falling down -- and Democrats believe that we should keep America the world leader in such areas, even though the Republicans voted en masse against making this country better for everyone who drives a car. Democrats can be trusted to lower your taxes and make your roads better -- and Republicans can be trusted to vote against all this common-sense spending, because rich people don't benefit enough by such spending."

This is kinda along the same lines of your query to me above...

Yes, some of the policies that Democrats have undertaken had been successful...

And, yes I should have given Democrats credit for the successful policies.

But I can't.. Because they did good on things that really didn't matter and royally screwed the pooch on things that DID matter..

My son had a very annoying habit when he was growing up.. Knowing he had done something wrong, he immediately did something good in hopes of escaping punishment..

That's how I see the Democrats.. Yea, they have had some successes... But those successes don't erase or mitigate how badly they have frak'ed things up...

I mean, sure... One can make all the specific points about this and that they want.. Like David's "I LOVE OBAMA" website mentioned before, one can cherry pick a success here or a success there and paint a very nice rosy picture of how Democrats really helped the American people..

But it would be a false picture, because it only paints half the story..

Because when it all boils down to one simple question... "Is my life better now than it was when the GOP was in control" the answer is a clear and present... HELL NO!! And only then does the full picture emerge..

So, this begs the question.

Why is my life worse off now than it was back then??

The answer??

Because Democrats did some good things but on the wrong issues...

To partake of David's Hindenburg analogy, it's like the engineer of the Hindenburg telling the captain, "Sir, I cleaned up the engine room real pretty like.."

Cleaning the engine room is a good thing to do, but didn't do a damn thing to prevent the airship from crashing and burning on David's front lawn..

To sum up (aren't you glad?? :D) all the good that Democrats have done was directed towards the wrong issues...

Americans are WORSE off now than they were before Democrats came into power..

And THAT is the only fact that matters.

As the results of the mid-term election clearly proved...

Michale.....

Well, after going into "lecture mode," I have to admit that at one point in the procedings, the link was actually wrong. For technical reasons I won't bore you with, I screwed it up. But I caught it fairly quickly, so everything should be hunky-dory now. Just had to admit that, after my last note on the subject.

:-)

David -

I think the Dems assumed that people would understand their philosophy and that conservative philosophy had failed.

To quote the learnéd philosopher, Benny Hill (cough, cough) -- "When you 'assume,' you make an 'ass' out of 'u' and 'me.'"

You are right -- Dems continually believe (without any obvious reason for such a belief) that this sort of thing will be communicated to the public via some sort of political osmosis. It never happens, and they never learn the lesson. Sigh.

But I have to say, the "Hindenberg crashing on your front lawn" was excellent metaphor-construction.

:-)

Americulchie -

I, too, would love to hear from a Grayson soon-to-be-ex-constituent about what exactly happened in that district, myself, from your personal take on it.

I still think he'd be fantastic on teevee...

Chris1962 -

Where to begin?

You keep repeating the canard that America is a "center-right" country, based on self-identified "liberals" versus self-identified "conservatives," but that all that really proves these days is how much conservatives have successfully demonized the word "liberal," really. When liberal policies are stacked up against conservative policies, Americans are actually mostly in favor of liberal policies, for the most part. The Tea Partiers are about to learn this lesson, to their dismay.

For instance, health care. The GOP/TP is about to launch a serious effort to repeal all Obamacare. But guess what? Most of it the public is going to want to keep. Exit polling showed that "repeal Obamacare" got 48% approval, and "keep it as it is, or take it further" got 47% approval. This will be an interesting fight, to say the least.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again -- the TP folks are about to learn the same lesson vis-a-vis "change" that Obama learned in the past two years -- it sounds great to say out on the campaign trail, but it is devilishly difficult to actually achieve, given the way Washington works.

Oh, also, you're the one who loves Rasmussen polls, aren't you? Once again, it was proven in state after state (see: WV, for instance) that Rasmussen was overly optimistic toward the Republican side, and that their polls are so slanted that you should subtract about 3-4% from any GOP results they report, and hand it to the Dems. Facts are stubborn things.

As for the Constitution, remember that it fully supported slavery. Times change. So does the Constitution, and the judicial interpretation of it. That is also part of the American culture.

Liz -

Hey, c'mon, we appreciate all sorts of nonsense here! As long as we all agree to "refudiate" (as Sarah Palin would say) the ad hominem attack; all nonsense is welcome here, even from me (I do get into arguments with the moderators, myself... but because I own the site, I always win these showdowns).

:-)

David -

Allow me to suggest some framing, here, to supplement your dichotomy:

"The stimulus lowered the American taxpayer's burden to the lowest point it has been in 60 years. The stimulus cut everyone's taxes more than any Republican has managed to since Eisenhower, in other words. The rest of the stimulus put construction workers back to work, rebuilding the greatness of American infrastructure, because with all the Republican 'small-government' thinking, our roads were falling apart, our bridges were literally falling down -- and Democrats believe that we should keep America the world leader in such areas, even though the Republicans voted en masse against making this country better for everyone who drives a car. Democrats can be trusted to lower your taxes and make your roads better -- and Republicans can be trusted to vote against all this common-sense spending, because rich people don't benefit enough by such spending."

:-)

-CW

It was quite obvious that President Obama has not yet learned any valuable lessons from the fiasco known as the mid-term elections ...

It was a surprisingly tough interview with Mr. Croft asking several questions from a conservative perspective.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/11/04/60minutes/main7021844.shtml?tag=contentMain;cbsCarousel

Thought folks might be interested!

Good point, Liz. That's typically what I feel is the difference between "spin" and "framing". Bottom line, though, is that conservatives were able to get the first message out better.

It's also what many have argued is the big problem with the media here in the U.S. I feel it's their job to do more than simply repeat the claims of the 2 parties. I miss an independent evaluation of claims.

Any insights from the ground in Florida about Mr. Grayson?

What was the perception from people? I was really sad myself to see him lose as I think he gets it like few people do.

I think this was also one of the reasons he was targeted so hard by corporate money.

let's look at the stimulus from 2 different framings.

1. The stimulus is an expansion of big government. It's increased government power.
2. The stimulus is a one-time only, emergency measure designed to rescue our economy from the housing crash.

The only thing I would take issue with here, David, is the implication that the two stimulus scenarios are merely partisan talking points and equally valid arguments.

It must be recognized that one framing is used to distort the truth, ignore the facts and disseminate misinformation.

Aren't you one of these lazy middle class people, CB? ;)

Ok, ok. All kidding aside, it looks though like you're trying to change the subject back to Republicans good, Democrats bad. Republicans hard-working American capitalists. Democrats lazy good-for-nothing, welfare living, socialist, communist pinkos.

I'm not really interested in the name calling.

But let me show you how you actually prove my point, CB. For example, let's look at the stimulus from 2 different framings.

1. The stimulus is an expansion of big government. It's increased government power.
2. The stimulus is a one-time only, emergency measure designed to rescue our economy from the housing crash.

If you believe the first framing, as you do, CB, then you're probably against the Obama/Bush stimulus. If you believe the second framing, then you're more likely to believe that Obama/Bush did the right thing.

Who won the messaging argument? The Republicans. They did a great job of hammering home the points you mention.

In fact, your comment contains at least 7 of the top 10 Republican talking points, showing just how good a job Republicans did. I, for example, can maybe put my finger on a couple of the top liberal talking points. But it's much harder. Because they're not nearly as clear or concise and they don't have media outlets like Fox, ClearChannel, and Gannett repeating them 24/7.

Cheers
David

You should know by now that your own special brand of nonsense is not appreciated over here, either.

What makes you think this kind of nonsense resonates within the confines of the two corners of the blogosphere where common-sense and reality-based political commentary reside?

I'm still wondering what part of that do you consistently not get?

The only communication problem that existed was Obama's personal definition of "change," which sounded good to Indies (who decide elections) on the campaign trail, but when translated into things that resulted in increased government power, more government intrusion, and over-the-top government spending — at levels that jeopardize national security, at this point — the American people rejected it. They don't wan those things, David. They never have and they never will, because it all affects their personal LIBERTIES. Look no further than that dictatorial "mandate"as an example of that. The American people are just flat-out not interested in being forced to do things against their will. And HCR was passed against their will.

I really don't know why liberals are having such a tough time understanding that very simple, clear-as-can-be reality. But Obama's problem is not a failure to communicate; it's a failure to accept the reality that this is a center-right country, with conservatives outnumbering liberals two and one, and that people just simply do not accept the liberal philosophy of taking money from the rich and redistributing it to "middle class" people, who like a nice, comfy lifestyle, but would rather not bust their ass creating it themselves. That is not "fair play," in the eyes of the majority of people in this country; nor is it written anywhere in the Constitution that people have the right to capitalize on the success of others; nor was the federal government given the authority to make it happen. What part of that do you guys not get?

Good article from Bloomberg. I hadn't seen this but it's great to see it out there.

Your article's got me thinking about the mistake that I think the Dems made. Here's my thought. I think that Democrats believed that after the financial crash, people could not help but see that this was caused by deregulation and trickle down economics.

It was so "in your face" that it would have been like missing the Hindenburg crashing on your front lawn.

So they may have felt their wasn't a need to explain government intervention.

I think instead, what happened was more like what happens in the NFL. When a team is losing, the coach gets the blame. In 2008, it was Bush. In 2010, it was Obama.

The opportunity that was missed was an opportunity to change the philosophy of corporatism in government. It was a chance to explain how deregulation didn't work and to offer an alternative philosophy and to really change how government was run.

Instead, we got minor policy revisions. And no one explained how they were working to deliver on the promise of change.

I think the Dems assumed that people would understand their philosophy and that conservative philosophy had failed.

Instead, I think what happened in 2008 was that the blame got placed on the person, Bush, instead of the philosophy.

And that's what happened again in the 2010 midterms, the blame was placed on the person. In this case, partly because no one is quite sure these days what Obama's philosophy is or even if it's any different from the corporatism of the past.

Cheers,
David

p.s. Bloomberg has been impressive of late. Here's another piece that I haven't seen published anywhere else:
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_46/b4203070002219.htm?campaign_id=rss_topStories

If Michale had been paying attention to Geithner and your colunms, then he would have known all along - as it was happening - about what was in the Bloomberg article.

Oh, wait ...

Maybe you read my post fairly early. Technically, there's a gap between the time I post here (first, of course -- not so much because, of course, my favorite people are here and deserve a first look; but because of mundane copyright reasons) and the time I post on HuffPost (usually around 1-10 minutes after I post here). During this time period, there simply is no link for me to paste in here, so the link is left blank. Soon, though, this link gets pasted in here, and is usable. The DU link takes longer, as I have to totally re-format the text of the article (they don't allow real html tags, but those fake [bracket] tags instead), so sometimes there's a gap of 1/2 hour or more before the DU link here goes "live".

More info than you probably wanted to know, but there it all is for anyone who has ever wondered why a CW.com article's bottom cross-posting links (especially on Fridays) don't work immediately. The solution to the problem is to try "re-loading" the CW.com page in your browser, which will update the live link, and all should be well. Which is why I bothered to go into such great detail, for that work-around suggestion.

Michale -

Where would I go?? What would I do??? :D

Hey, it keeps me off the streets, too... probably a benefit to society in both our cases.

Heh. Heh heh.

Seriously, though, while I actually agree with you on the speed of the Left/Right turnaround, the fact that you are "genuinely surprised" by the Bloomberg article speaks to the point I'm trying to make.

Consider: if you HAD known this stuff for the past year and a half, would your outlook now be any different? I'm not disparaging your information-collecting abilities (see that link to the article I wrote about my taxes -- I was genuinely pissed off that I hadn't heard anything about that tax cut myself, because it would have been such good political hay for the Dems to have made). So I'm in the same boat as you, in other words -- and the Dems inability to communicate ANY of this is to their blame, not ours.

So I ask you seriously, politics aside, just as a laboratory experiment (I know you're a big enough fan of SciFi not to take exception to such a description, I have to say, in case other readers misconstrue that statement...) -- if you had heard about all the stuff mentioned in the Bloomberg piece when it happened, would your impressions of Obama and the Dems be even slightly higher now as a result? I'm interested in your self-reflection, personally.

-CW

Because the simple two step response to ANY bragging by Democrats would be, "CrapCare" and then, "Why don't I have a job??"

Short of designing a combustion engine that runs on garbage (It CAN be done! I have seen it in the movies!! :D) no accomplishment will erase the abomination that is CrapCare and the fact that unemployment is disgustingly high.

Assuming the Bloomberg data is accurate (and I have no reason to believe otherwise) I am genuinely surprised that things Democrats have done have actually worked out good so far...

But, as the old saying goes, one "aw shit!" will erase a thousand "atta boy"s...

Had Obama and the Democrats actually LISTENED to the American people instead of assuming that voters are stoopid and must be dictated to on how to live, then Obama and said Democrats would not be in the hole that they are right now..

I have to say, this is the fastest turnaround from Left to Right I have ever seen..

Michale.....

Hay now!!! Let's not be sayin' things we can't take back!!! :D

Where would I go?? What would I do??? :D

Michale.....

Your link to HP isn't working and the link on HP's front page to your latest FTP column is also not working ... I'm thinking the powers that be at HP don't want to hear the truth about the administration because that would expose all of their own nonsense over the last two years ... and, they might have to take some responsibility for the Tuesday night fiasco and for the sad state of affairs as outlined in the Bloomberg article...

The Bloomberg article and most of your talking points this week will come as a complete shock to the "professional left", just to be clear ...