FTR, what may be an "extreme" comment to you is not an extreme comment to me. So how about I phrase things the way I wish, and you do the same. I like to express myself without feeling I have the speech police standing over me, if you catch my drift.

Next timethat you make an exteme comment, however, you may wish to back it up with something of substance or keep the experience to yourself.

I a bad experience, and I went home to get treated. That's all there is to it. Can we move on now?

If I were to relate an experience like that, then I would feel compelled to provide some facts to back up my extreme statement. I certainly wouldn't hide behind the concept of "online anonymity" - or, I just wouldn't make the statement at all. But, that's just me.

The Huffington Post is largely populated by individuals who fit that bill.

The good news is that the unprecedented "mandate" won't likely make it past the U.S. Supreme Court, which will effectively kill HCR in its entirety. That's my opinion, and one I feel no need to explain further or apologize for.

It's easy to make statements like the one you made in comment #48 when you enjoy on-line anonymity and, consequently, it doesn't impress me much.

'D

I would be very interested to know where in Canada you lived for close to a year and where you found the quality of healthcare to be of such a poor quality.

Err... yea....

And how'z that workin' out so far??? :^/

Michale.....

"I've had better."
-Jim Carrey, LIAR LIAR

:D

Michale.....

You got me. I plead guilty to not being up on the latest conspiracy theories.

And we obviously got the worst of the deal - Anna Chapman was HAWT! :)

Obama's Justice Department ruled out bringing lawsuits against Sanctuary cities. These are cities that actively interfere with ICE activities within their city limits...

Get that???

Obama is sueing Arizona claiming that the Arizona law interferes with the Federal law when, in fact, it actually MIRRORS the Federal law.

Yet, these Sanctuary cities actively interfere with ICE enforcement of Federal Law and THESE cities are given a pass by the DOJ....

If someone has ANY logical reason to support such bonehead moves, I would sure like to hear it..

Michale.....

You are obviously not up on current events..

We didn't get any of "our" spies back.. Actually, we didn't get ANY spies back at all...

One was a scientist who had published some works he found on the Internet. Another was an economic contact for the British... I forget the other two..

But, suffice it to say we didn't get diddley squat...

And you can bet that the 10 we captured and sent home is the tip of the ice berg here...

Just one more to add to the ever-growing OBAMA BONEHEAD MOVE list...

Michale.....

You mean other than the obvious wanting to get our spies back and finally having something to trade?

Or maybe just to try to put a quick end to any rebuilding of Cold War tension?

Or maybe as a gesture of goodwill towards the Russians as we negotiate with them?

Ok, you're right. I can't see any other reason. It must be to cover up a vast Democratic conspiracy!

-David

p.s. I guess this makes me part of the conspiracy. Sweet!

Let me ask you something, David..

Do YOU see any logic in transferring a dozen spies back to Russia less than TWO WEEKS after they were arrested??

What possible other motivation could there be to get such valuable intelligence assets OUT of the country and AWAY from our own intelligence services??

Michale.....

Spy swap puts halt to fact finding

Thanks for the laugh of the day, Michale! This reads like a satire from the Onion.

It should be titled "Communist Obama in league with Russian spy ring?"

Here's the facts:
- We all know Obama was not born in the U.S.
- It's obvious that he is a socialist
- It's rumored that the Russian spies targeted a financier of Hillary Clinton
- Obama and Democrats are obviously trying to cover this up by moving the spies to Russia so that we can't waterboard them for more information

CIA official: "Tell us that Hillary Clinton was involved!"
Russian spy: "Glggghghgllghglllg"
CIA offical: "Tell us!"
Russian spy: "Ok, if you stop torturing me I'll make up anything you want me to."

This is the stuff great conspiracy theories are made of. I have to give the Republicans credit though. They sure seize on every opportunity to turn Democrats into evil communists.

And ... why won't Obama release his birth certificate?

Great stuff!
David

That's not been my very long experience.

NOW, we know why there was such a quick deal made to swap the Russian spies..

Spy swap puts halt to fact finding
Public trial of 10 Russian agents could have led to revelations.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jul/13/spy-swap-puts-halt-to-fact-finding/

Michale....

I would think that Spin is something good you make up because you know you have something bad.

Framing is when you have something good but only in a certain context, and that context needs to be shown to garner acceptance.

Howz that? :D

Michale.....

Yes, I'm the one who's been selling you all those branded household and apparel items you neither want nor need, through those neat little hypnotic communication vehicles known as commercials and print ads.

I knew it! (Do you like the show "Madmen"? Speaking of pop culture, this is one of my favorites. And yes, I have a love/hate relationship w/ marketing.)

Also, you make some good points about Republicans and business. Would like to comment further, but will have to save for a later discussion due to time and work.

@CW

Paradigm ... dammit, I knew I forgot something! Also, I like the "All Spin Zone". Think about the publicity if you got sued by Fox! And just do it! Someone I read, probably Lakoff, made a good distinction between spin and framing. Will have to look for it.

Cheers
David

Of course, Michale gets borderline on occasion,

"Oh Peter? He was borderline for a while. Then he crossed the border."
-Egon, GHOSTBUSTERS II

:D

but then he quotes Star Trek and redeems himself with me. Heh.

AHA!!!! I found your kryptonite!! :D

"Show him the instruments of torture..."

Don't tease me... :D

CB,

Michale, are you a Trekkie?

I used to be. Then I grew up and became a "Trekker".. :D

I can pinpoint the EXACT moment I became a Star Trek fan...

It was in 7th Grade and we had to do an art project.. After mulling things over for a moment, I decided to draw a space scene with the Enterprise in orbit...

Viol'a... A Trek Geek was born... :D

Please tell me you are and that you go to those conventions, dressed up as one thing or another.

In my youth... In my youth.. :D

It reminds me of "24" fans, who lived and breathed CTU. (Yes, I have my own badge, on a chain, like they wear when they raid a nest of terrorists. What of it.)

Oh my gods!! Yer me!!! :D

Michale, I strongly believe HCR is going to be deemed unconstitutional once it makes its way up to the Supremes.

Yep, I have said the same thing from the moment it came out...

There is simply NOTHING in the US Constitution that says the Federal Government has the right or authority to force someone to purchase a product that they may not want to purchase.

It's like forcing people to by a Government Motors car because it would be good for the country's economy.

Like hell...

Michale.....

Michale, I strongly believe HCR is going to be deemed unconstitutional once it makes its way up to the Supremes.

Speaking of the courts and unconstitutional law, I found this to be very interesting: http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/4272726/unconstitutional-law-nullify-it/

Chris, I know the question wasn't addressed to me, but I'd like to go on record as saying "yes" and "yes." I like to analyze political strategy more than anything, and I find no politician perfect, by any means. There are also a lot of politicians, pundits and other assorted talking heads whom I don't agree with, politically, but admire for their talents.

Why do you refer to Canada's healthcare system as 'crapcare'?

================
[Editor's Note: My apologies to Liz here for horning in on her comment, but I am having problems commenting on long article, and I just wrote out this long one, so I'm posting it here for the time being. Again, Liz, sorry for overwhelming your comment here. -CW]

David [31] -

I know the question wasn't addressed to me, but it's going to take me a while to get used to "CB"... just as it took me a LONG time to get used to cartoonist "CWC" which really threw me for a loop, since me eye is drawn to "CW"...

So anyway, here goes. My rule of thumb for anyone of any political persuasion, whether professional pundit or casual commenter on blogs is: Do they admit when "their" side is wrong? Can they admit that their guys (and gals) aren't perfect and occasionally screw up? Or, on a more philosophical level, can they admit when the other side raises a valid point?

People who are able to do so are worth listening to. People who cannot are usually not. That's my rule of thumb anyway, and why I put up with the likes of Michale, and now Chris1962. People who enjoy the thrust and parry of a political discussion more than using a bludgeon or sticking their fingers in their ears. Of course, Michale gets borderline on occasion, but then he quotes Star Trek and redeems himself with me. Heh.

To quote from another Frank Herbert book: "Show him the instruments of torture..."

Oh, wait, I said "torture," now I've set Michale off again, dang...

David/Chris1962 -

Ah, but don't forget to check in every Friday for our "all spin zone" here! Whoops, now Fox is probably going to sue me or something... heh.

David [41] -

You forgot:

"It creates a WHOLE NEW paradigm!"

You simply have to have the word "paradigm" in there somewhere, n'est pas? And probably throwing in "thinking outside the box" would help, too...

Heh.

-CW

Interesting story behind that.. :D

When the HealthCare push started, I originally called the project, "DunselCare"...

As in...

Dunsel.. A term used by midshipmen at StarFleet Academy to describe a part or process that serves no useful purpose.

It was only after the real aspects of DunselCare became apparent that I determined that DunselCare not only did not serve a useful purpose, but was actually a detriment to this country..

This was back when everyone here was universally against DunselCare. At this point, David referred to the legislation as "crap".

Thus, CrapCare was born....

Of course, when it became apparent that actually passing CrapCare was beneficial to the Democratic Party (and ONLY the Democratic Party), there was a change of heart and CrapCare somehow automagically morphed into something pure and good amongst most of the denizens here.. By "most", I mean everyone but me... :D

To be fair to the afore mentioned denizens, the prevailing opinion about CrapCare appears to be "better than nothing"..

However, give all the revelations (recent and otherwise) regarding CrapCare, it's obvious that "nothing" would have been infinitely better for this country than passing CrapCare.

Especially when one considers that all the time that the Administration spent on ramming CrapCare thru the legislative process (by hook or by crook) would have been MUCH better spent putting together a JOBS package...

But try telling THAT to the Left, who are so hell-bent on the Left/Democrat/Progressive agenda, let the country be damned...

And we are..... Damned, I mean....

Michale.....

"...CrapCare"

Hey, did you steal that expression from me, at the HuffPo, or did I steal it from you? 'D That's what I refer to Canada's health care system as.

Buy now!

ROLF. And that's where I come in. Yes, I'm the one who's been selling you all those branded household and apparel items you neither want nor need, through those neat little hypnotic communication vehicles known as commercials and print ads. 'D

'D

OK, now yer just teasing me.... :D

Michale.....

Now you've gone too far. From here on out, we must remain sworn enemies :)

I have never known anyone who can spend an hour talking about a new product and at the end you have absolutely no idea what the f*ck it does.

All you know is:
- It's scalable
- It interoperates with everything on the planet
- It improves your TCO by reducing and consolidating costs
- You will be more productive than you ever were before
- It opens up new market opportunities
- Your partners will be able to offer their customers new services
- It allows you to collaborate across your supply chain
- You've differentiated yourself from your competition
- It modernizes your infrastructure
- It helps customers challenged with multiple budget cuts
- It increases the velocity of work
- You can do more with less
- It increases your responsiveness to market trends that cause missed opportunities
- It can be implemented quickly without significant upfront expenses
- It increases your business agility
- It allows you to deal with crucial macro-economic trends evident over the past few years such as: globalization, increased dependency on value-chain partners, and workforce mobility
- It cures AIDS
- And, it's "green" and EcoSmart

Act fast in order to break away from your competitors!

Buy now!

Do you know how many presentations I had to go for the list above? The answer is one. Not only that but I only had to go to one slide. And I didn't even have to search for it as it was a presentation from earlier today.

Your kind is a plague on the planet!

If I could have Michale waterboard all of you, I would do it without batting an eye.

Warmest regards,
David

When you consider who Obama has just nominated to head Medicare, the concept of a "TC" might become a reality with CrapCare....

Tis sad, tis true. Tis true, tis sad.

Michale.....

LOL. Am I getting warm?

That's probably because I'm an old hippie myself. 'D

My curiosity in this stems from a theory of mine that Democrats need to do a better job of making a business case. To business people.

I don't think the Dems have a prayer in that department, with all the constant corporate-bashing rhetoric, and calls for every kind of government regulation and taxation under the sun. Business knows who its friends are. It's not about talking; it's about doing. Those who seek to create an environment in which business can grow and flourish and employ and profit are the ones Business recognizes as pro-business, and will always gravitate toward. Everybody else falls under the all-talk-no-action banner.

No hint necessary... It will slap you in the face.. :D

But, here are the Cliff Notes on the episode...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_Care_(Voyager_episode)

It doesn't do the episode justice, but it gives you a good idea as to my point... :D

Michale.....

There's a big difference between a clear message and "spin".

Part of the issue, I think, is that the average pol has maybe 2-3 sentences to make their case. And that estimate might be on the high side.

What I really dislike is when folks spin and try to say they're in some kind of "no spin" zone ... ok, I'll stop w/ the allusions to Fox. Sometimes "none too subtle" describes me.

I work with marketing folks all day so please excuse.

You remind me of a friend of mine who is ultra-conservative yet seems to most of the time still get along with us hippie communists.

My curiosity in this stems from a theory of mine that Democrats need to do a better job of making a business case. To business people. So I guess I was wondering if economic arguments interest you.

-David

Did you get that Voyager episode to play??

If so, what did you think of it vis a vis our current situation?

Michale.....

My antennae does tend to go up, immediately, when I hear blatant spin being put out, because it suggests to me that the pol or spokesperson feels a need to twist something rather than address the subject matter, and facts, head-on.

I guess I look for intellectual honesty in the presentation of an argument, more than anything.

You?

As someone who seems to identify with conservatives, what do you find convincing in an argument?

-David

Why is it, when I read that, I suddenly hear Darth Vader's theme?? :D hehehehehehe

Michale.....

Nothing like a good E.L.E. to make one's day complete... :D

http://www.helium.com/items/1882339-doomsday-how-bp-gulf-disaster-may-have-triggered-a-world-killing-event

Michale.....

Glad to hep out.. :D

For all...

Obama spokesman says Democrats could lose House
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iGp8jzk4pJyawzEXFnuwO5C5vBMQD9GSVIP80

Hmmmmmmm

I do believe that someone around here has been saying the same thing for several months now, eh? :D

Michale.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGZFgMNM-UU&playnext_from=TL&videos=B7Y1UyvNJ6I

It's pretty explosive in that the woman who made the documentary is a Democrat. And it contains a lot of on-film evidence and testimonials by Democratic poll workers, claiming to have witnessed what really sounds like a lot of fraud. Like, concerted-effort style.

I don't expect the MSM to cover a word of it, but FOX is reporting it, needless to say.

So here's my favorite HP response of the day. I had said something about Glenn Beck, having nothing whatever to do with Arizona, to which a poster replied:

"And it was, BeckLovite. No doubt you're a White Arizonian who can trace their White family roots back 800+ years to White Wood, AZ...”

Okie-dokie, then.

'D

Heh heh. Just trying to make you feel welcome.

ROFL. Ah, you're just trying to charm me. Actually, you and I are going to become very good cyberfriends, I'm sure, Chris. Liberals always end up loving me. This is my cross to bear in life. I'm like flypaper to NYC Leftists. My best friend in the world is a leftie intellectual and big wig with the NYC Board of Ed, who might as well just sign up with the Communist party; that's how far Left she is. You are a piece of cake, by comparison. And I enjoy talking politics with her more than anyone. So I have a lot of experience discussing hot issues in a calm manner. Gracie and I hardly ever throw things at each other. 'D

If yer not using it, download and install VLC..

http://www.videolan.org/vlc/

It's the best video player out there...

CW,

I may be wrong, but I don't think I'm ever going to face copyright problems from a mere link, no matter what it links to.

Good to know..

I won't abuse it, but sometimes tidbits come available that I would just love to share with the group...

Speaking of which, has anyone seen UNTHINKABLE yet??? Ya'all simply HAVE to see it when it comes out.. It will blow your socks off...

Michale.....

[16] -

Um, OK, here goes... You're stupid! And a moron! And you watch Fox News!

Heh heh. Just trying to make you feel welcome.

Actually, the CW.com crowd is nicer than most because (I think, this is just a guess), most of us here have known each other long enough that we may not agree on anything, but there's a certain level of respect. We don't get a lot of "drive by" commenters slinging hate for hate's sake.

Michale -

I may be wrong, but I don't think I'm ever going to face copyright problems from a mere link, no matter what it links to. The only link I would forcably remove (as SOON as I was made aware of it, so if it ever happens everyone PLEASE LET ME KNOW) would be one that led you to a site that installed malware. That would be gone instantly, you betcha. Anything else, as far as I'm concerned, is pretty much fair game.

David -

Oh, I don't know (RE: HuffPost commenters). It's worth sifting through some sand to get to the gold nuggets. How else would Chris1962 and I ever have met? Heh. I've always (egotistically) said that I may not get the most commenters at HuffPost, but I surely do get the best of them (pro and con).

:-)

-CW

Conservative commenter: "You're a hippie communist tree-hugging homosexual illegal-immigrant loving socialist!"

That was probably me. Hahahaha. I do my share of mud-hurling over there, but soooooo prefer real conversation with intelligent political junkies from both sides of the aisle. CW does a great job of picking interesting things to write about over there, and here. Although leaning leftwards, in tone, I find them quite fair and balanced, overall — especially compared to the other authors at the HP. So it's really nice being able to discuss them here, in a one-on-one atmosphere, without the onslaught of geniuses popping in to contribue "You're a stoopid Faux Noise watcher!" to the debate. 'D

I'm seeing picture but have no sound. Why me. I've got every plug-in under the sun. Maybe I'm missing some kind of .avi gizmo. :(

Just wanted to say nice shout out on the Brad Woodhouse press release. Glenn Greenwald had an excellent piece on how this mimics the worst of the GOP tactics. Even worse, it supports the argument that to say anything bad about the war is to be against the troops or some other such nonsense. Smooth move, Woodhouse.

Sometimes Democrats ought to just let folks like Michael Steele dig their own holes. He'd already dug an excellent one with his own party.

CB-
Welcome to the site! I think you'll find it more enjoyable than HuffPo. I still glance through HuffPo for some of the articles, but I rarely dive into the comments as it's quite predictable back-and-forth. I'd sum it up as something like this:

Conservative commenter: "You're a hippie communist tree-hugging homosexual illegal-immigrant loving socialist!"

Liberal commenter: "You're a stupid moronic racist backwards-@ss religious 'no nothing' nutjob!"

Repeat ad nauseum. ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

-David

I was lazing around the house (that would be "being lazy".... As opposed to shooting lasers are over the place... :D) I was watching some old Star Trek VOYAGER episodes..

Came across this little gem from the 7th season..

Episode 5, CRITICAL CARE

I put it up for download if anyone wants to watch it. I highly recommend seeing it and, for your homework assignment, see if you can guess the relevance of the episode as it pertains to current events. :D

http://sjfm.us/temp/STVoyager-E05-CriticalCare.avi

The download should be ready about 0830hrs EDT.

Aside to CW. If there are CW concerns (copywright, not Chris Weigant :D) please don't hesitate to yank the link.. The episode really struck me as relevant to some of our discussions, vis a vis what road we might be heading down and I thought others might enjoy it.

Michale.....

"This isn't a party! It's the beginning of a news story that ends with the phrase '... he then turned the gun on himself'."
-Charlie Sheen, TWO AND A HALF MEN

:D

Michale....

CW, this reminds me of a guy on a political board who used to call me "Seepy." Hahahaha It actually annoyed me so much that I eventually left the board. Those were the early days, however. I've since grown much thicker skin. I can now take any HuffPo poster with one hand tied behind my back.
'D

Oh my frakin' gods, you would have thought I had accused Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama of being a cross-dresser for all the hell fury I got... :D

Hahahaha! Oh, those Palin-bashers do not like facts. NO, NO, NO, NO. Facts do not sit well with that crowd. Rather, Palin is a bad, money-hungry mother who should be taking care of her "retarded son" and chaining that whore of a daughter of hers to a radiator in the attic, to ensure that she doesn't get loose and lead some other poor Levi-like soul over to the dark side. The good news, you'll be happy to know, is that there is no way she will ever be taken seriously as a candidate for Dog Catcher, much less the presidency, because she's a "quitter."

After intellectually wiping the floor with most of them ((chortle)) :D ((chortle)) and actually making headway with the others and some real meaningful mature and logical discussions, I was promptly banned..

THEN I get banned. :D

ROFL! Sucker. I was just over in the Don't Ask/Don't Tell thread at the HP and got reported about fifteen times for suggesting that the military may have to assign separate showering facilities for straights and gays. Blasphemy!

You will find that CW.COM here is one of two really nice exceptions to the rule of BanterWire sites. Here at CW.COM you can actually disagree with the crowd and not have yourself or your wife/husband or your mother the victim of perverse personal attacks.

This may take a bit of getting used to. I'm not accustomed to exchanging ideas and insights without somebody reminding me of what a stupid, Faux-Noise-watching moron I inarguably am, every third post or so. 'D As for BanterWire: never been there; never intend to go. The HP is more than I can stand. If I were to do two sites like that, you'd be seeing me on the evening news, with the local authorities trying to coax a rifle out of my hands.

If you ever wanna experience the true bowels of hell on that site, just enter any thread with the name "Palin" in the headline. OMG.

Way ahead of ya.. I popped over to another Banter Wire site.. I don't want to name names..

This site races to the bottom to see how low-brow they can be. You know the kind of quality of site you are dealing with when you see a picture of babies wrapped in cellophane. That's what passes for maturity in some of these sites. Anyways, this particular site revels in going nuclear on well known names from the right, amongst them Palin. Actually FOREMOST amongst them is Palin..

Anyways, I popped in and dropped this little FACTUAL tidbit..

Prior to Palin's ascension to the National spotlight, she enjoyed the HIGHEST approval of any governor in the nation...

Oh my frakin' gods, you would have thought I had accused Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama of being a cross-dresser for all the hell fury I got... :D

After intellectually wiping the floor with most of them ((chortle)) :D ((chortle)) and actually making headway with the others and some real meaningful mature and logical discussions, I was promptly banned..

Get that?? I fought thru some of the most disgusting and vile personal attacks on myself, my lovely wife and my mother. I actually made headway and prompted some very rational and mature discussions.

THEN I get banned. :D

You will find that CW.COM here is one of two really nice exceptions to the rule of BanterWire sites. Here at CW.COM you can actually disagree with the crowd and not have yourself or your wife/husband or your mother the victim of perverse personal attacks.

In short, other sites don't handle dissension or counter arguments very well. The more logical and rational the dissension or counter-point is, the more virulent and disgusting the personal attacks are. These sites act as Echo Chambers and the only kind of debate they allow is to debate whether Bush is a lunatic or a moron.. :^/

WOW.. Talk about yer verbal spewage..

Sorry, didn't mean to go on and on like that.. :D

"Did you want to talk about the weather? Or were you just making chit-chat?"
-Bill Murray, GROUNDHOG DAY

:D

Michale.....

Volcker Pushes for Reform, Regretting Past Silence
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/11/business/11volcker.html?_r=1

When a guy like Volker says he's worried, I get really worried.

"Oh, yeah? Well, Bush is stupid. Like you. Go watch Faux Noise, Beckhead!"

If you ever wanna experience the true bowels of hell on that site, just enter any thread with the name "Palin" in the headline. OMG.

I always roll my eyes, like, Oh, God, it's starting...

But I think there's also something else going on, because they're not just simply flipping into campaign mode; they're conducting damage control, e.g., Geithner outwardly denying that the administration was anti-business, and "working the phones" to assure Business heads that Obama is 100% pro-business. I get the feeling that the White House got some disturbing research results — like, real results, from their own internal pollster. There was such an unusual, noticeable "turnaround" in attitude, from one day to the next, it seemed. It felt like a turn-on-a-dime type thing. Maybe it was just that "socialist" poll from Carville and Whatshisname. I don't know, but it felt, to me, like something was up, behind the scenes.

We can...

Arizona passed the law as a kick in the arse to the Obama Administration.

Obama filed the lawsuit against Arizona to show he is well capable of some arse kicking himself..

It's one of those issues that, if BOTH parties took a deep breath and stepped back, they would be able to see the logic of the other's position..

And, I readily admit, there IS logic to both parties' positions. Arizona more so than the administration, but still...

The posturing from both sides has made it impossible for EITHER party to say, "yea, you DO have a point, but....."

or the spies we got in return truly have.

From what I understand, the 4 we got weren't even spies..

One was a nuclear scientist who accidentally published some state secret or something. Another was a Brit economic advisor or something.

We didn't get diddley squat for the 10 deep cover Russian agents we allowed to go home.

You can bet that the FBI agents who worked that case for TEN frakin' years are royally PO'ed.. As I would be in such a case...

No, it's looking more and more like Obama just bent over for Putin.....

Apologies for the graphic nature of that, but we got screwed. Obama was just our proxy...

Michale.....

First off, welcome to the site! If anyone wonders whether we ever agree on anything, I can state from the very start here that we are both lifetime members of the "Chris Is A Cool Name" club. So there.

heh.

[1] -

Yeah, the other thing that may have influenced me is (others have pointed out) that this was a fundraising speech, and was likely preceeded by lots of fire-breathing Democratic speeches, so I may have taken it out of context by just reading Obama's speech. But my point is that that's exactly what the media did -- painting it as "this is the premiere of the Democratic campaign message" whether that's fair or not. So I kind of treated it as such -- maybe I just got suckered by the media (wouldn't be the first time).

[2] -

Yeah, Rahm really had an "off" day. He's usually a lot sharper than this. Personally, I'd like to see Biden or maybe Plouffe out there making this case, but then that may be due to other problems I have with Rahm....

Liz -

Hey, c'mon, I said something nice about Biden!

:-)

Actually, I was very happy with Biden's trip to Iraq because I thought it was both timely and necessary. The more I see of his work, the more impressed I get with him, I have to admit (OK, and your sentiments have also influenced my thinking a bit, I will admit).

Chris1962 -

[5] -

There's a whole series of books written by the guy who wrote "Dune" where the main character has the official title "Chaplain/Psychiatrist" and everyone just calls him "CeePee." That's what sprang to mind to me, at least. But then I read lots of weird books, so you'll have to blame it on that...

And besides, what's wrong with "1962" as a last name? Has a ring to it, don't you think?

:-)

[6] -

You may be right about the messaging, but then this was just the media's interpretation of what their message will be, so I'll reserve judgement at least until they've got a web site up and running explaining who they are.

Michale -

[7] -

The whole Arizona thing -- from both sides, actually -- seems more like an exercise in politics than law, I think we can agree on that nebulous point at least.

[9] -

The White House today walked back Rahm's comment -- giving more weight to the "Rahm had a bad day" theory. Two "unnamed sources" in the administration confirmed that Obama made the basic decision, after being presented with the options, on June 11. It is literally insane to think that such a decision (no matter what your opinion of the spy swap) would be made at anything less than presidential level -- because it is NOT just law enforcement, as Rahm tried to say, but it is also foreign policy, national security, and a whole bunch of ramifications that go way beyond the FBI or the Justice Department.

Maybe Rahm needed some sleep or something, I dunno. Watch the first five minutes of the interview -- Jim Lehrer is STUNNED by what Rahm says, and keeps trying -- over and over again -- to give him a way to walk it back and admit that Obama made the decision. Rahm refuses to do so, and Lehrer gets even more stunned.

As for the spy swap itself, I reserve judgement because I don't think we'll ever know what secrets either the Russkie spies or the spies we got in return truly have. We could have made a great deal, intelligence-wise, and we could have bought a pig in a poke; but for a few decades, I don't think any of it will be declassified, so as I said, I think it's impossible for us to know at this point.

-CW

You can bet that Obama had complete knowledge of the swap and signed off on it..

Just another example of Obama kissing the ass of our enemies in hopes of getting some crumbs..

I still can't believe I voted for the guy.

Michale.....

You come home to that a person has broken into your home and is eating your cheetos and watching your TV.

"How would you feel if you came home and someone was eating your cheetos. Watching your TV."
-LtColonel John Shephard, STARGATE ATLANTIS

Anyways, you call the Left Police to come take the intruder away, but they tell you, "Sorry.. Nothing we can do. That person has a right to be there. After all, he isn't a 'criminal'."

So, you just have to live with it.

Now, I ask you.. Even if that person who broke into your house and is living there, even if they do odd jobs around your house, jobs you don't like to do....

Wouldn't you still want that person out of your house???

Michale.....

Glad ta see ya here, CB... :D I had wanted to respond to a few more of your responses on HuffPo.. But my relationship with HP usually can be counted in minutes...

They have never forgiven me for one of the worst crimes imaginable.

Offering passionate logical dissension that actually sways opinions.. :D

Anyways, glad to see you found your way over here...

CW,

"And the good news is -- I'm not a lawyer. And so I think the way to see this is -- is the president's been clear about -- and I think the most important thing is to take away that, on this case, he doesn't believe 50 states should have -- we should have 50 separate immigration laws."

If I had one question I could ask the administration over this issue, it would be this.

"Why is it that the Obama administration has such a problem with this ONE state's immigration law, that this one law "interferes" with the Federal Government's immigration enforcement, yet the Obama administration is eerily silent about the hundreds of cities in the country that pass 'Sanctuary' laws? It seems to me that such 'Sanctuary' laws would violate the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution, whilst the Arizona law does not."

And, as our newest member of CW.COM (CB) pointed out on HuffPo, Rhode Island has an anti illegal immigration law that is identical to Arizona's... Why isn't there a lawsuit against RI??

Oh that's right. Because RI is a Blue state and Arizona is (obviously) not part of the "United States" that Obama mentioned during his campaign.
/sarcasm

And ya'all wonder why I don't respect Obama anymore... :^/

Michale.....

ROFL. They’re off to a great start:

"Leaders of the groups have been meeting for about three months in a planning process that some participants called arduous, debating everything from the name of the coalition to what the branding and logo should look like."

Meanwhile, message-wise, I think One Nation has it wrong: "The demonstration, to be held Oct. 2, will center on pressing for more government spending on job creation."

More government spending? Any candidate hawking that message is begging to get thrown out of office. The White House has it right, trying to position the administration as business-friendly.
How they expect to pull that off, I have no idea. But that's definitely the right message to have in this anti-government/anti-spending voter environment.

Liz and CB agree on Obama's speech. We are definitely off to a good start. I'm very happy to be here. Unlike the HuffPo (where I go to hone my kneecapping skills), this looks like a group of smart, thoughtful, respectful political junkies. I love good conversation about political tactics, polling, communications strategies, inside-the-beltway players, and the like. I look forward to some good chats. 'D

Can we get a last initial from you, d'ya think? :)

First off, welcome aboard! You're going to have a lot of fun here.

Secondly, I couldn't agree more with your take on Obama's Nevada speech.

So, all Biden has to do to get an honourable mention around here is fly off to Iraq, eh? Hey, we'll take what we can get.

Seriously, sometimes I wish Biden was still the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Then I might learn a thing or two about what's really going on with US policy in Iraq. As veep, he is just not at liberty to speak - ad Bidenitum - about the details of his on-going mission there. Suffice to say, though, that history will mark his efforts to promote sustainable political reconciliation in Iraq as being instrumental. Perhaps then he might be awarded a MIDOTW award after the fact, in appreciation. :)

We rabid partisans (LOL) might also remember that with the midterm elections just a couple of months away, he's now trying to win the support of non-Dems (read: Independents), which the Dem candidates are desperately going to need. Those Indies are standing with the Republicans now. So to bash the Republicans, head-on, is to bash (by association) Independents who agree with the Republicans, which needless to say, is not the best way to win their hearts and minds. 'D

So we're probably going to hear a lot more of this "we" talk from this point forward. I think it's just sounding jarring to you because only last week, he was still employing his usual partisan rhetoric. To me, it sounds like he's just now officially thrown the "campaign" switch — which I've been eagerly waiting for him to do. Personally, I hate when a president flat-out attacks "the other side." That's what God created operatives for. Presidents should always stay above that level of rhetoric and let the operatives duke it out in the mud. To me, when a president does it, it diminishes his stature and overall authority, dragging him (and the office, too) down to the level of a regular ol' politician.

And it's not like Obama possesses a whole lot of gravitas to begin with. He needs to maintain what little he has. {snicker}