I was answering you here as I was writing today's column, which I think you'll like. Part of the reason I had the facts so close to hand. Anyway, let me know what you think, I just posted it.

-CW

I concede the point.

My comparison of the integration of black Americans into the US military to the integration of gays into the US military was obviously flawed and incorrect...

Regardless, it still doesn't change my opinion that the integration of openly expressed gays into the US Military at a time of rigorous deployments and major security threats on the horizon is ill-advised.

The US military simply doesn't need the distraction in the here and now..

That's my story and I am sticking to it.. :D

When, in 20 years time, gays are fully integrated into the Armed Forces of the United States and there have been no ill effects, I will gladly admit I was wrong.... Again... :D

Michale.....

Thanks. I forgot to include a few links. I actually did this research originally for an article a while back:

http://www.chrisweigant.com/2008/07/28/sixty-years-after-desegregation-ending-dont-ask-dont-tell/

And here's the full timeline, from the Truman library:

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/desegregation/large/index.php?action=chronology

The politics raged before, during and after the war. Truman's hand was kind of forced at the time he signed the original order, because black leaders were calling on a boycott of the draft and military service for all blacks.

The military pushed back -- hard. For years. Different branches pushed harder than others.

Here's an interesting stat: over 80% of Americans were against integrating the military when it happened.

Read the whole timeline, even though it is abbreviated, and doesn't go into all the political implications, it gives a pretty good overview. The military wasn't fully integrated (housing, officer's clubs, stuff like that) until the 1960s. It took a while, even though everyone today seems to think of it as happening overnight.

M*A*S*H even did an episode on the subject, as I recall -- a white soldier was terrified he was getting "Negro blood."

Anyway, I hate to say it, but you're wrong again. The politics of the issue raged, throughout the Korean War. Many generals (Omar Bradley included) thought that the military should wait until US society was fully integrated.

-CW

BUT....

But, the order was given in peacetime...

That the military dragged their feet may or may not have been a military issue..

I really don't want to denigrate your research, because it was A-1 top notch..

But it even more emphatically emphasizes my point, because it most closely parallels our current situation but in reverse...

Lieberman's bill wants to integrate gays into the military, but will leave it to the military to decide on the 'when' and 'how'...

Truman wanted to integrate black Americans into the military, but he left it to the military to decide on the 'when' and 'how'...

But the difference is that, in Truman's case, the order was given in peacetime. The actual implementation was during war.. But, as you say, it TOOK wartime to provide the incentive to do it and do it right...

The political BS went on during peacetime and was out of the way by the time the actual integration was done..

Now, in THIS situation, we are at war.. So, we would have to deal with the political BS of this decision (and make no mistake, there will be whole boat loads of political BS over this) while fighting two wars and (Liz's opinion notwithstanding) a third one brewing...

In other words, we would have to deal with ALL the political BS of this decision AND the actual integration of gays, all while we are maintaining two very rigorous deployments AND maintaining security for the Korean Peninsula.

Don't ya honestly think that may be a bit much??

I don't consider you as part of this crowd, but it seems many MANY of those advocating the repeal of DADT are of the, "Let's just do it and see what happens" variety. That just doesn't cut it in the here and now..

That's my main beef with the Repeal advocates. At BEST, they are completely and utterly clueless as to the ramifications of what they propose..

At worst, they know but don't give a flying frak. Their agenda is more important to them than the lives of US soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines...

What it all comes down to is a matter of opinions..

And I'll be the first to admit that my opinion may be dated.. But I doubt the military has changed THAT much in the last decade or so...

But, as I said to Liz, there are logical and rational reasons for both advocates..

Irregardless of all that, that was one helluva piece of research ya did.. I can't help but feel I might have stepped into an ambush... :D

If so..... Kudos... It was a good one. :D

Michale.....

Actually, you're wrong. The Army fully integrated on the battlefield of the Korean War. DURING the Korean War. As a DIRECT RESULT, as a matter of fact, of the battlefield of the Korean War.

Truman's order was 7/26/48, true. But the big brass dragged their feet for years on it, "studying" it and trying "test units" of integrated soldiers. The brass also fought a political battle to keep from integrating, for years.

It wasn't until June, 1950, that the Army desegregated training of new units. And it was for a very practical reason that the Army actually integrated existing units -- the Korean War had started, and the Army was taking such large losses among white units that they couldn't replace them unless they used black troops (Korea started with segregated units). It was a logistical nightmare, IN TIMES OF BATTLE, that ended the policy in a practical way. Here's a later timeline (Korean lasted from June, 1950, to July, 1953):

January 1951: The Eighth Army in Korea adopts an unofficial policy of integrating African-American soldiers who cannot be effectively absorbed into segregated African-American units.

March 18, 1951: The Department of Defense announces that all basic training within the United States has been integrated.

April 1951: General Matthew B. Ridgway, head of the United Nations Command in Korea, requests that the Army allow him to integrate all African-Americans within his command.

July 26, 1951: The Army announces that the integration of all its units in Korea, Japan and Okinawa will be completed within six months.

I know it's a popular talking point to say we shouldn't "perform social experimentation in times of war" with the military, but the biggest social experimentation (if you want to use that term) in the military's history happened smack in the middle of an active war... oh, excuse me, "police action."

If you were right, then when Korea started, the Pentagon would have immediately postponed any integration plans (then still in their infancy), until after the war's conclusion. They didn't. In fact, the battlefield pushed them to integrate faster than they might normally have done.

Nice try, though.

-CW

I don't know if you are still monitoring the PROGRAM NOTE commentary, but could ya check it when you get a chance...

Danke

Michale.....

Yer right. I should have been more specific..

Senator Webb is against suspension of the DADT at this time.

But my original point still stands. If Webb's military background is respected and valued, then it's logical that the same respect and value should be applied to unpopular decisions as well.

In short, if Senator Webb is saying, "Let's wait and see what the DoD says before we go messing around with something as important as military readiness and cohesiveness." then perhaps that advice should be heeded.

By the way, I think you may be surprised by what that DoD review concludes.

To be perfectly honest with you, I won't be surprised either way..

Because there are logical and rational reasons to support either decision..

As long as the decision is arrived at thru logic, rather than emotionalism or blatant political maneuvering, I will be happy with it.

I still maintain, however, that it is my personal opinion that it would be a bad idea to do something so drastic in the middle of two large-scale deployments and a third conflict brewing. I use the previously mentioned integration of black Americans in the US Military as an example. An integration that took place AFTER WWII, not during...

P.S. "...with a 3rd (war) waiting in the wings..." I'd give that propositon less than the equivalent of a snowball's chance in Hell.

You might be right. You probably are..

But you also COULD be wrong.. And the risk of you being wrong is not worth the gain that MIGHT be achieved.

Michale.....

Not so fast!

Senator Webb has not taken a position on DADT at this time as he is waiting for the review by the defense department which is trying to ascertain how members of the armed forces feel about the repeal of DADT.

Senator Webb is concerned that before US service men and women have officially had a chance to weigh in with their views on this subject, Congress has jumped ahead of the game. His concern, in other words is with the process and not with the policy. In this particular case, the process and the policy are both very important and any vote taken needs to be understood in that light.

By the way, I think you may be surprised by what that DoD review concludes.

In any event, I still maintain that Senator Webb did nothing to deserve a MDDOTW 'award'. I guess that is the extent to which we agree.

P.S. "...with a 3rd (war) waiting in the wings..." I'd give that propositon less than the equivalent of a snowball's chance in Hell.

I agree with Liz...

:D

If one respects Webb's position on military matters, and Webb is against repealing of the DADT, then one must concede the possibility that ending of the DADT in favor of full disclosure of sexual orientation might not be in the best interests of the military.

If we were at peacetime, then such a social experiment in the military would probably be A> be a lot less painful and B> a lot more successful..

One only has to look at fully integration of black Americans into the US Armed forces in 1948 to see the point.

Can you imagine the chaos and discord that would have been created if the 1948 integration had been attempted in 1940??

It would have set the cause of integration back a hundred years...

The time to try such large shift in the psyche of the US Military is NOT when we are fighting two wars with a 3rd one waiting in the wings...

Michale.....

Chris,

Senator Webb did release a very concise, if not lengthy, statement outlining the reasoning behind his vote. Granted, I don't fully understand the whole process of the filibuster but it does seem to me that if we want our elected officials to be honest and candid on the issues and demonstrate integrity then we shouldn't necessarily expect them to change their vote, willy nilly. And, we certainly shouldn't be punishing them for it.

I guess all I'm saying is that a quick analysis of the senator's reasoning might have been in order before awarding him the MDDOTW hounours.

"I demand that construction of the Death Star be completed immediately. No star system will dare oppose us."

"Max would like you to bring back 8 track tapes. Not sure if that's going to work. "
-Bruce Willis, ARMAGEDDON

:D

Michale.....

Well, of course YOU can, since this is your column.. :D

Michale.....

Having said the afore, I can relate and agree with this in principle..

However, turn it around and postulate a scenario where Democrats put up a web site to get ideas about what the American public thinks.

Do you think that THEY (the Democrats) would embrace ideas that don't fit into their "Party philosophy"??

I don't think they would...

You can't knock the GOP for being true to itself, if you allow that the DP would be true to itself as well..

Michale.....

Oh yer just PO'ed that Democrats didn't think of it first! :D

Michale.....

Congratulations!!!

Woo hoo!! Thanks to all who voted for Matt. Thanks to Dr. Howard Dean's Democracy For America site for running the contest and sponsoring bloggers to Netroots Nation.

And, Matt, I'll see you in Vegas.

:-)

-CW

I don't know Webb's reasoning. Webb was the guy who made his son's Army boots a campaign theme, and is very knowledgeable on military matters. He could have a personal opinion on it and is voting his conscience, I realize. But he can vote against the final bill, and still vote to break a filibuster, which is what I would hope he would do (not knowing any of the facts, mind you).

Michale -

If the GOP did this on their own dime, I would still find it hilarious and ridicule it, but I wouldn't be outraged. The fact that they're using tax money for political purposes does outrage me, though. And since we've all (well, all of us except for Liz, since she's north of the border) already paid for it, then I don't see a problem with having all kinds of fun with it.

But seriously, I do think Ninja Cats would be kind of cool.

Heh.

Republicans have been quoted several times (about the website) saying "we'll ignore any ideas which don't fit into our party's philosophy." Which means that they're not really interested in "listening" even if there wasn't a single joke posting up there. There are quite a few liberal ideas which have gotten lots and lots of votes -- like "end faith-based initiatives" for instance. But the GOP has already said they won't pay any attention to any idea outside of their comfort zone. Meaning the entire exercise was a political stunt and a joke from the get-go. Democrats pointing this out by making it an even bigger joke is fair game, especially since we've all paid for it too.

-CW

That movie quote should have been followed by a couple :D :D ..... :D

Michale......

And here I thought that politicians actually taking the time to LISTEN to the American public was a GOOD thing..

Oh that's right. I forgot. Democrats have risen to new heights of incompetence by ignoring the American public..

As far as the website being a joke... I wonder who made it that way??

Probably the same kind of Democrats who attended Tea Parties dressed as Hitler and spouting off racist and homophobic slurs...

Once again, we see Democrats acting exactly like they claim Republicans act...

The more things hope to change, the more they stay the same...

"If yer not part of the solution, yer part of the problem. Quit being part of the fucking problem!!"
-John McClane, DIE HARD

Michale.....

And ya'all claim that it's the REPUBLICANS who are acting in bad faith???

Jeeeezzee...

It's actually ending a social experiment in the military

Actually, you are correct as far as you go..

Ending DADT is ending a social experiment.

But, by allowing gay people to serve openly, it is the beginning of a bigger and more extreme experiment.

I simply question the wisdom of such a far-reaching experiment when we are fighting two wars with a third one brewing...

Michale.....